Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 5 element is problematical in that so seldom is any patient found who displays a true 5 element picture. One of our textbooks referred to " fudging " with 5 element, but heck, aunt Emma with no medical training at all can do fudging. Regards, Pete Hi Pete, In my experience to get a real 5 Element picture it is important to look for signs; Colour, Sound Odour and Emotion as opposed to counting up symptoms to work out which of the 5 Elements is most distressed in a person. This can take time and practice especially learning to have emotional rapport with an elemental type. my 2 cents/euro worth Gye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 5 E Designs are set patterns with some marginal variance which are easy to detect. in fact it is difficult to not do so because configurations are so typical fudging is fun but there is no need, 5 E wants to readily give you the information if one finds it difficult to designate 5 E, one is simply not trained well, and mark what i say, this reflects less on the student or practitioner, and more on who taught him or her so many students who are now practitioners are so because of great dedication and huge sacrifices. and because this is what they believe in they have reached here after years of work, thousands of $s or £s or €s and with great sacrifice of those who love them and have supported them by the time they are ready for practice, they are in debt to a dreadful extent, and facing bias, with very little in terms of a professional backup, with the uphill task of matching off their work with established doctors and finely tuned lobbies and a less than sympathetic legislature what they don't want at this time is an uncertain approach to diagnosis, or a point oriented protocol to healing pain 5 E vagueness is widespread and is fast becoming the well kept secrets of the profession holmes Gye Bennetts wrote: > 5 element is problematical in that so seldom is any patient found who > displays a true 5 element picture. One of our textbooks referred to > " fudging " with 5 element, but heck, aunt Emma with no medical training > at all can do fudging. > > Regards, > > Pete > > Hi Pete, > > In my experience to get a real 5 Element picture it is important to > look for signs; Colour, Sound Odour and Emotion as opposed to counting > up symptoms to work out which of the 5 Elements is most distressed in > a person. This can take time and practice especially learning to have > emotional rapport with an elemental type. > > my 2 cents/euro worth > > Gye > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Sharon wrote: > Pete, The paper is an appendix in Chasing the Dragon's Tail, and > since I don't have the gift of the gab to explain maths, it past me, > just thought it might interest some. > > Secondly, please explain what you mean by a a true 5 element pattern. > I see 5 element patterns regularly, perhaps I missing something. Hi Sharon! Maybe you have a link to the Dragon's Tail? Huh? You see 5 E patterns in practice? I haven't. I have noticed that I very seldom get a water type or metal type or a whatever type patient. I've noticed that the 5 element models of syndromes don't ever present in their textbook state. Typically I get patients who are both excessive and deficient in one or more of the *same* elements. This is why I *consider* 5 E, but never rely on it. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Gye Bennetts wrote: > 5 element is problematical in that so seldom is any patient found who > displays a true 5 element picture. One of our textbooks referred to > " fudging " with 5 element, but heck, aunt Emma with no medical training > at all can do fudging. > > Regards, > > Pete > > Hi Pete, > > In my experience to get a real 5 Element picture it is important to look for signs; Colour, Sound Odour and Emotion as opposed to counting up symptoms to work out which of the 5 Elements is most distressed in a person. This can take time and practice especially learning to have emotional rapport with an elemental type. > Hi Gye! Good example! I have never had a patient present with an odor, or seldom even admit to ever having had an odor. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 if one wants to know anything about 5 E work which can be used in practice the next day one will not find it in this appendix p 395 para ii of the appendix, ... 'this model is a liner approximation, but in practice we will need a non linear models to explain non linear phenomenon'. is one going to sit in the clinic and measure vectors? the work is fun because that is how manaka worked, by far ranging phasality with a touch of the incredulous the man was a genius, but 5 E diagnostics does not require ingenuity 5 E work is practical as beans, while being entirely intangible and inscrutable to someone not used to looking at a very obvious boy on a high white wall and he is not about smelling armpits either! holmes Pete Theisen wrote: > Sharon wrote: > > Pete, The paper is an appendix in Chasing the Dragon's Tail, and > > since I don't have the gift of the gab to explain maths, it past me, > > just thought it might interest some. > > > > Secondly, please explain what you mean by a a true 5 element pattern. > > I see 5 element patterns regularly, perhaps I missing something. > > Hi Sharon! > > Maybe you have a link to the Dragon's Tail? > > Huh? You see 5 E patterns in practice? I haven't. > > I have noticed that I very seldom get a water type or metal type or a > whatever type patient. I've noticed that the 5 element models of > syndromes don't ever present in their textbook state. > > Typically I get patients who are both excessive and deficient in one or > more of the *same* elements. This is why I *consider* 5 E, but never > rely on it. > > Regards, > > Pete > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Hi Pete, Having come from a strong TCM background before working with other models including a 5E model (there is more than one way to apply 5E in the clinic), I think it is all a matter of how a practitioner collects and sorts their data. For instance in one 5 E style, the most deficient yin pulse along with, colour, sound, abdominal signs tells you which element to deal with. Then in this model both it and its mother are tonifies. Now this based on interpreting the Nan Jing, so whilst this model uses Lu 5 as the mother point for Kidney. Another model may use the mother point on the primary channel. Then there is what works clinically. Then the either the controlling or the controller channel is treated. In the book Between Heaven and Earth, there are survey questions to determine which element I person belongs to, one for the body and it can be a different one for the mind. In my limited experience I would say in general 5E models treat the person irrespective of directly treating the symptoms. For instance you can have dysfunctional expression in the Liver which is actually due to the deficient Kidney. When you strengthen the Kid the Liver expression tones down. In another instance that Liver dysfunction is actually on the controlling instead of the engendering cycle, so when Sp is supported the Liver symptoms abate. TCM model looks, I now think to see the zang fu static pattern without taking into account these flows and counter flows, it focuses on this static expression of the symptoms . Many practitioners get great results using all the different models, and I am quite certain that in another up teem years my explanation of al this will also change, as my practice changes. Best wishes, PS One definition of Chasing the dragon's tail is the chasing of the symptoms as they appear and disappear. -- Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.6 - Release 6/05/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Hi Holmes, From what I understand Manaka's main published work in English, is in meridian therapy balancing yin and yang. I would not call him a 5 E model. He did not tonify and disperse, he used points to balance the yin and yang. He found that he mostly did this with Extra ordinary vessels, polar pairs and occasionally single meridians. He certainly has physicality, and was driven to identify the software inherent in OM theory, however, he focused in his publishing on Signal X theory, and explained / used 5E relationships amongst all the different 'soft ware rules'. His 5 step treatment plan, is about treating Yin and Yang and whilst he uses draining and supplementing points according to the 5 phases, this is just part of a much bigger tool bag. best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of dkakobad Monday, 9 May 2005 5:35 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Mathematical Herbal Medicine if one wants to know anything about 5 E work which can be used in practice the next day one will not find it in this appendix p 395 para ii of the appendix, ... 'this model is a liner approximation, but in practice we will need a non linear models to explain non linear phenomenon'. is one going to sit in the clinic and measure vectors? the work is fun because that is how manaka worked, by far ranging phasality with a touch of the incredulous the man was a genius, but 5 E diagnostics does not require ingenuity 5 E work is practical as beans, while being entirely intangible and inscrutable to someone not used to looking at a very obvious boy on a high white wall and he is not about smelling armpits either! holmes Pete Theisen wrote: > Sharon wrote: > > Pete, The paper is an appendix in Chasing the Dragon's Tail, and > > since I don't have the gift of the gab to explain maths, it past me, > > just thought it might interest some. > > > > Secondly, please explain what you mean by a a true 5 element pattern. > > I see 5 element patterns regularly, perhaps I missing something. > > Hi Sharon! > > Maybe you have a link to the Dragon's Tail? > > Huh? You see 5 E patterns in practice? I haven't. > > I have noticed that I very seldom get a water type or metal type or a > whatever type patient. I've noticed that the 5 element models of > syndromes don't ever present in their textbook state. > > Typically I get patients who are both excessive and deficient in one or > more of the *same* elements. This is why I *consider* 5 E, but never > rely on it. > > Regards, > > Pete > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Opps meant he has phasality not physicality, ie that all Earth points share common characteristics even though they are on different meridians. Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Sharon Monday, 9 May 2005 7:29 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Mathematical Herbal Medicine Hi Holmes, From what I understand Manaka's main published work in English, is in meridian therapy balancing yin and yang. I would not call him a 5 E model. He did not tonify and disperse, he used points to balance the yin and yang. He found that he mostly did this with Extra ordinary vessels, polar pairs and occasionally single meridians. He certainly has physicality, and was driven to identify the software inherent in OM theory, however, he focused in his publishing on Signal X theory, and explained / used 5E relationships amongst all the different 'soft ware rules'. His 5 step treatment plan, is about treating Yin and Yang and whilst he uses draining and supplementing points according to the 5 phases, this is just part of a much bigger tool bag. best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of dkakobad Monday, 9 May 2005 5:35 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Mathematical Herbal Medicine if one wants to know anything about 5 E work which can be used in practice the next day one will not find it in this appendix p 395 para ii of the appendix, ... 'this model is a liner approximation, but in practice we will need a non linear models to explain non linear phenomenon'. is one going to sit in the clinic and measure vectors? the work is fun because that is how manaka worked, by far ranging phasality with a touch of the incredulous the man was a genius, but 5 E diagnostics does not require ingenuity 5 E work is practical as beans, while being entirely intangible and inscrutable to someone not used to looking at a very obvious boy on a high white wall and he is not about smelling armpits either! holmes Pete Theisen wrote: > Sharon wrote: > > Pete, The paper is an appendix in Chasing the Dragon's Tail, and > > since I don't have the gift of the gab to explain maths, it past me, > > just thought it might interest some. > > > > Secondly, please explain what you mean by a a true 5 element pattern. > > I see 5 element patterns regularly, perhaps I missing something. > > Hi Sharon! > > Maybe you have a link to the Dragon's Tail? > > Huh? You see 5 E patterns in practice? I haven't. > > I have noticed that I very seldom get a water type or metal type or a > whatever type patient. I've noticed that the 5 element models of > syndromes don't ever present in their textbook state. > > Typically I get patients who are both excessive and deficient in one or > more of the *same* elements. This is why I *consider* 5 E, but never > rely on it. > > Regards, > > Pete > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 There are many systems of pattern differentiation other than five phase and zang fu. You also have SHL six channel, four aspects (Wen Bing), three burner, disease differentation, qi/blood/fluid differentiation, jing-luo/channel-network pattern differentiation. The zang-fu model is not meant to be taken as a 'frozen' picture, there are dynamics and interplay between the zang-fu which often require the use of five phase models as well. Five phase can also be practiced in a rigid, 'static' manner. For example, the causative factor model which limits the cause of illness to one phase can be quite rigid if the causes of disharmony are more complex. On May 8, 2005, at 2:20 PM, Sharon wrote: > TCM model looks, I now think to see the zang fu static pattern without > taking into account these flows and counter flows, it focuses on > this static > expression of the symptoms . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Why shouldn't anyone use a larger 'tool bag'? Five phase is just one system, and is not meant to be taken in isolation. If you study the Nan Jing, you will see several different systems use to design acupuncture/moxa protocols. On May 8, 2005, at 2:28 PM, Sharon wrote: > He certainly has physicality, and was driven to identify the software > inherent in OM theory, however, he focused in his publishing on > Signal X > theory, and explained / used 5E relationships amongst all the > different > 'soft ware rules'. His 5 step treatment plan, is about treating > Yin and > Yang and whilst he uses draining and supplementing points according > to the 5 > phases, this is just part of a much bigger tool bag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2005 Report Share Posted May 9, 2005 Couldn't agree more Z'ev that any model is dynamic or static depending in part on its user. I have a TCM colleague with an IT background, who talks to the points and gives them instructions about what to do. Her head is mapping a network. She has great results using zang fu diagnosis. If we were to map a river, we could ride down it, walk the banks, stay still and watch it move, view it from above, all the way from space where we might see both its birth above ground and its arrival into a greater body of water of the lake or the sea or watch it disappear underground - and even see that these change according to the seasons. We would have many descriptions about the nature of that river. For me the way I was taught, TCM was like a snap shot with an end diagnosis of a zang fu excess or deficiency. A bit like measuring the river's qualities at a specific point and declaring a treatment based on those assessments. That doesn't make it static, just static with the way I used it. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Monday, 9 May 2005 7:57 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Mathematical Herbal Medicine There are many systems of pattern differentiation other than five phase and zang fu. You also have SHL six channel, four aspects (Wen Bing), three burner, disease differentation, qi/blood/fluid differentiation, jing-luo/channel-network pattern differentiation. The zang-fu model is not meant to be taken as a 'frozen' picture, there are dynamics and interplay between the zang-fu which often require the use of five phase models as well. Five phase can also be practiced in a rigid, 'static' manner. For example, the causative factor model which limits the cause of illness to one phase can be quite rigid if the causes of disharmony are more complex. On May 8, 2005, at 2:20 PM, Sharon wrote: > TCM model looks, I now think to see the zang fu static pattern without > taking into account these flows and counter flows, it focuses on > this static > expression of the symptoms . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2005 Report Share Posted May 9, 2005 Z'ev I have no answer on a why question. It was merely an observation. I find my current skills with my current models of 5 E great but limited and I find I have other models and other tools that may prove useful. However, others may like to make a deep insertion with just the one tool. Such as those who do just cupping, or just bleeding, or just 5 E or just TCM, they have found how to treat much with one tool and can teach others that one tool. This too is valid. Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Monday, 9 May 2005 7:59 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Mathematical Herbal Medicine Why shouldn't anyone use a larger 'tool bag'? Five phase is just one system, and is not meant to be taken in isolation. If you study the Nan Jing, you will see several different systems use to design acupuncture/moxa protocols. On May 8, 2005, at 2:28 PM, Sharon wrote: > He certainly has physicality, and was driven to identify the software > inherent in OM theory, however, he focused in his publishing on > Signal X > theory, and explained / used 5E relationships amongst all the > different > 'soft ware rules'. His 5 step treatment plan, is about treating > Yin and > Yang and whilst he uses draining and supplementing points according > to the 5 > phases, this is just part of a much bigger tool bag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2005 Report Share Posted May 9, 2005 Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Oh Bob, > I see that the book appendix includes several papers along this line. The > second is Towards the Development of a Mathematical Model for Acupuncture > Channels - first published in Acup. & Elec. Ther. Res. Int. Jour. 14, pp > 217-226, 1989 > > There is also the final paper - A Mathematical Model for the Five Phase Laws > in the Case of a Single Channel. - no previous publication reference is > given. > Best wishes, > > Thanks, Sharon, and I'll try to get it. Bob Xu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2005 Report Share Posted May 9, 2005 Absolutely, All of these methods of pattern differentiation are maps of the territory of the body/mind. That is one of the beautiful aspects of Chinese medicine. On May 8, 2005, at 4:38 PM, Sharon wrote: > If we were to map a river, we could ride down it, walk the banks, > stay still > and watch it move, view it from above, all the way from space where > we might > see both its birth above ground and its arrival into a greater body > of water > of the lake or the sea or watch it disappear underground - and even > see that > these change according to the seasons. We would have many > descriptions > about the nature of that river. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2005 Report Share Posted May 9, 2005 Response to everyone's 5E comments. I studied 5E for 3 and 1/2 years - non-stop, some Zang Fu and Patterns were thrown in. I also attended Nikki Bilton's workshops which again throw another perspective on 5E. I've practiced on my own for 4 years. Sometimes a patient comes in and it is so clear that they are a particular constitutional type, or element. Are all legs of the stool there (color, sound, odor, emotion)? Not always, and yet it can be so clear. Sometimes another element is crying out and you know, say the constitutional type is earth, but water is so persistent that something tells you to treat that. Once the water is settled the earth can get the attention it needs. Water is no longer counteracting on earth. Other times it is a toss up between two elements and I pick one and start there. Other times I can treat a patient for years and not really be sure between one or two elements. This is more rare but does happen. A large percentage of my patients I can diagnosis with a clear 5E type. Another smaller percentage I would put in two elements and treat both at one time or another. Another smaller group, I thought it was one element and then another shows up big for me - time to change. Another very small group - I'm not sure at all so I take a real hard look at the pattens and that may influence my choice. The 5E I studied always told us to clear blocks before treating the element. One of those blocks are qualities on a particular pulse. I really think we are treating the patterns anyway, as we run through these protocols. After studying Dr. Tan, there are many crossovers in his theory with 5E treatment. Anne dkakobad wrote: >5 E Designs are set patterns with some marginal variance which are easy >to detect. in fact it is difficult to not do so because configurations >are so typical > >fudging is fun but there is no need, 5 E wants to readily give you the >information > >if one finds it difficult to designate 5 E, one is simply not trained >well, and mark what i say, this >reflects less on the student or practitioner, and more on who taught him >or her > >so many students who are now practitioners are so because of great >dedication and huge sacrifices. >and because this is what they believe in > >they have reached here after years of work, thousands of $s or £s or EURs >and with great sacrifice of those >who love them and have supported them > >by the time they are ready for practice, they are in debt to a dreadful >extent, and facing bias, with very >little in terms of a professional backup, with the uphill task of >matching off their work with established >doctors and finely tuned lobbies and a less than sympathetic legislature > >what they don't want at this time is an uncertain approach to diagnosis, >or a point oriented protocol >to healing pain > >5 E vagueness is widespread and is fast becoming the well kept secrets >of the profession > >holmes > > > > > > > > > > >Gye Bennetts wrote: > > > >>5 element is problematical in that so seldom is any patient found who >>displays a true 5 element picture. One of our textbooks referred to >> " fudging " with 5 element, but heck, aunt Emma with no medical training >>at all can do fudging. >> >>Regards, >> >>Pete >> >>Hi Pete, >> >>In my experience to get a real 5 Element picture it is important to >>look for signs; Colour, Sound Odour and Emotion as opposed to counting >>up symptoms to work out which of the 5 Elements is most distressed in >>a person. This can take time and practice especially learning to have >>emotional rapport with an elemental type. >> >>my 2 cents/euro worth >> >>Gye >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2005 Report Share Posted May 9, 2005 The pulse, or the 5E pattern is one thing. Actually palpating the body and by this I mean the actual tissue of the body, often reveals distinct holding patterns which should be addressed by acupuncture. This is something Japanese practitioners are very good at(in general)whilst TCM approaches(at least taught here)are very poor at. Acupuncture is a hands on modality IMO. Ray Ford Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Monday, 9 May 2005 7:59 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Mathematical Herbal Medicine Why shouldn't anyone use a larger 'tool bag'? Five phase is just one system, and is not meant to be taken in isolation. If you study the Nan Jing, you will see several different systems use to design acupuncture/moxa protocols. On May 8, 2005, at 2:28 PM, Sharon wrote: > He certainly has physicality, and was driven to identify the software > inherent in OM theory, however, he focused in his publishing on > Signal X > theory, and explained / used 5E relationships amongst all the > different > 'soft ware rules'. His 5 step treatment plan, is about treating > Yin and > Yang and whilst he uses draining and supplementing points according > to the 5 > phases, this is just part of a much bigger tool bag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 I have an electronic copy of this paper if anyone is interested. I can email it to you. Attilio www.attiliodalberto.com Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Bob, > I have the paper in my copy of the Chasing the Dragon's tail. > The paper is Appendix Five: On the Development of a Mathematical Model for > the " Laws' of the Five Phases, page 392-411 > If you wanted to purchase the book the ISBN is 0-912111-32-1 > > Apparently it was first published in The American Journal of Acupuncture > 17:4. pp261-6, 1989 > > Do you have access to this publication? > Best wishes, > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Bob Xu > Sunday, 8 May 2005 11:40 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Mathematical Herbal Medicine > > > Chinese Medicine , > wrote: > > > Hi Bob, > > Please excuse me cutting in, however, I thought to mention that there > is a 5 > > element mathematical model based on vector analysis. > > Best wishes, > > > > > Hi Sharon, > > Welcome to join in. Everyone's constructive inputs are welcome. Could > you please recommend a link where the 5 element mathematical model > based on vector analysis is available? Thanks. > > Bob Xu > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link page, > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, > > > > > - --------- > -- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 Is it within copyright to do that Attilio? Best wishes Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Attilio DAlberto Wednesday, 11 May 2005 2:02 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Mathematical Herbal Medicine I have an electronic copy of this paper if anyone is interested. I can email it to you. Attilio www.attiliodalberto.com Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Bob, > I have the paper in my copy of the Chasing the Dragon's tail. > The paper is Appendix Five: On the Development of a Mathematical Model for > the " Laws' of the Five Phases, page 392-411 > If you wanted to purchase the book the ISBN is 0-912111-32-1 > > Apparently it was first published in The American Journal of Acupuncture > 17:4. pp261-6, 1989 > > Do you have access to this publication? > Best wishes, > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Bob Xu > Sunday, 8 May 2005 11:40 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Mathematical Herbal Medicine > > > Chinese Medicine , > wrote: > > > Hi Bob, > > Please excuse me cutting in, however, I thought to mention that there > is a 5 > > element mathematical model based on vector analysis. > > Best wishes, > > > > > Hi Sharon, > > Welcome to join in. Everyone's constructive inputs are welcome. Could > you please recommend a link where the 5 element mathematical model > based on vector analysis is available? Thanks. > > Bob Xu > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link page, > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, > > > > > - --------- > -- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 I have no idea. Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Sharon 10 May 2005 21:58 Chinese Medicine RE: Mathematical Herbal Medicine Is it within copyright to do that Attilio? Best wishes Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Attilio DAlberto Wednesday, 11 May 2005 2:02 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Mathematical Herbal Medicine I have an electronic copy of this paper if anyone is interested. I can email it to you. Attilio www.attiliodalberto.com Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Bob, > I have the paper in my copy of the Chasing the Dragon's tail. > The paper is Appendix Five: On the Development of a Mathematical Model for > the " Laws' of the Five Phases, page 392-411 > If you wanted to purchase the book the ISBN is 0-912111-32-1 > > Apparently it was first published in The American Journal of Acupuncture > 17:4. pp261-6, 1989 > > Do you have access to this publication? > Best wishes, > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Bob Xu > Sunday, 8 May 2005 11:40 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Mathematical Herbal Medicine > > > Chinese Medicine , > wrote: > > > Hi Bob, > > Please excuse me cutting in, however, I thought to mention that there > is a 5 > > element mathematical model based on vector analysis. > > Best wishes, > > > > > Hi Sharon, > > Welcome to join in. Everyone's constructive inputs are welcome. Could > you please recommend a link where the 5 element mathematical model > based on vector analysis is available? Thanks. > > Bob Xu > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link page, > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, > > > > > - --------- > -- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 I just think it is important that if I bought a copy of your published work that others too would also by copy and not just acquire a copy. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Attilio D'Alberto Wednesday, 11 May 2005 7:07 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Mathematical Herbal Medicine I have no idea. Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Sharon 10 May 2005 21:58 Chinese Medicine RE: Mathematical Herbal Medicine Is it within copyright to do that Attilio? Best wishes Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Attilio DAlberto Wednesday, 11 May 2005 2:02 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Mathematical Herbal Medicine I have an electronic copy of this paper if anyone is interested. I can email it to you. Attilio www.attiliodalberto.com Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Bob, > I have the paper in my copy of the Chasing the Dragon's tail. > The paper is Appendix Five: On the Development of a Mathematical Model for > the " Laws' of the Five Phases, page 392-411 > If you wanted to purchase the book the ISBN is 0-912111-32-1 > > Apparently it was first published in The American Journal of Acupuncture > 17:4. pp261-6, 1989 > > Do you have access to this publication? > Best wishes, > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Bob Xu > Sunday, 8 May 2005 11:40 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Mathematical Herbal Medicine > > > Chinese Medicine , > wrote: > > > Hi Bob, > > Please excuse me cutting in, however, I thought to mention that there > is a 5 > > element mathematical model based on vector analysis. > > Best wishes, > > > > > Hi Sharon, > > Welcome to join in. Everyone's constructive inputs are welcome. Could > you please recommend a link where the 5 element mathematical model > based on vector analysis is available? Thanks. > > Bob Xu > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link page, > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, > > > > > - --------- > -- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 If anyone feels that way, then don't ask me for a copy. Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Sharon 10 May 2005 22:18 Chinese Medicine RE: Mathematical Herbal Medicine I just think it is important that if I bought a copy of your published work that others too would also by copy and not just acquire a copy. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Attilio D'Alberto Wednesday, 11 May 2005 7:07 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Mathematical Herbal Medicine I have no idea. Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Sharon 10 May 2005 21:58 Chinese Medicine RE: Mathematical Herbal Medicine Is it within copyright to do that Attilio? Best wishes Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Attilio DAlberto Wednesday, 11 May 2005 2:02 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Mathematical Herbal Medicine I have an electronic copy of this paper if anyone is interested. I can email it to you. Attilio www.attiliodalberto.com Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Bob, > I have the paper in my copy of the Chasing the Dragon's tail. > The paper is Appendix Five: On the Development of a Mathematical Model for > the " Laws' of the Five Phases, page 392-411 > If you wanted to purchase the book the ISBN is 0-912111-32-1 > > Apparently it was first published in The American Journal of Acupuncture > 17:4. pp261-6, 1989 > > Do you have access to this publication? > Best wishes, > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Bob Xu > Sunday, 8 May 2005 11:40 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Mathematical Herbal Medicine > > > Chinese Medicine , > wrote: > > > Hi Bob, > > Please excuse me cutting in, however, I thought to mention that there > is a 5 > > element mathematical model based on vector analysis. > > Best wishes, > > > > > Hi Sharon, > > Welcome to join in. Everyone's constructive inputs are welcome. Could > you please recommend a link where the 5 element mathematical model > based on vector analysis is available? Thanks. > > Bob Xu > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link page, > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, > > > > > - --------- > -- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 Yes, please Would appriciate very much Attilio. Thank you Peter Pavolotsky I have an electronic copy of this paper if anyone is interested. I can email it to you. Attilio www.attiliodalberto.com Peter Pavolotsky Tel. (416)453-9004 peter911cm ____________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals..ca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 Could you send me a copy too please. Thanks. May On 11/5/05 4:53 pm, " Peter Pavolotsky " <peter911cm wrote: > Yes, please > Would appriciate very much Attilio. > Thank you > > Peter Pavolotsky > > > > I have an electronic copy of this paper if anyone is > interested. I > can email it to you. > > Attilio > www.attiliodalberto.com > > > > > Peter Pavolotsky > Tel. (416)453-9004 > peter911cm > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Hi Attilio, Would you be very kind to send me a copy too, please. Love and Gratitude. amy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 dear attildo could you send eme a copy and oblige please thank you tanveer May Lucken-Ardjomande <maylucken wrote: Could you send me a copy too please. Thanks. May On 11/5/05 4:53 pm, " Peter Pavolotsky " <peter911cm wrote: > Yes, please > Would appriciate very much Attilio. > Thank you > > Peter Pavolotsky > > > > I have an electronic copy of this paper if anyone is > interested. I > can email it to you. > > Attilio > www.attiliodalberto.com > > > > > Peter Pavolotsky > Tel. (416)453-9004 > peter911cm > http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click on this link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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