Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Matt Bauer wrote: <snip> > We do not have a consensus on how to reach a consensus. Hi Matt! Excuse the blank reply, errant mouse click. Yes, a consensus on what a consensus is, well put. I have been working on a database as I previously posted. One of the things it would do is gather clinical case studies including treatments and outcomes, over time the file would get very large and would be instantly searchable for statistics and the like. " Empirical research " . The pills and laser acupuncture would make true double blind research possible, " scientific research " , but the funding is most likely not available. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 wrote: <snip> > It is the nature of people who get involved with Chinese medicine to > be largely staunch individualists. Let's Hi Z'ev! Who, me? :-) Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Pete, Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that NCCAOM is about practitioner certification and not accredidation. Accredidation comes from ACAOM, which is a separate entity. My post was pointing out the need for quality in all areas and not a limited focus. I think there is a lot that can be done to improve the quality of the current education as well as being able to have grads that pass the NCCAOM exam. In other words, turinging out quality graduates who are prepared to run a practice. What tends to come to mind is in the area of western sciences, business/practice management, etc. For some programs the classical side of things could be vastly improved as could student development such as needling. Students should know the why and where an idea comes from as well as its usage. Medical billing and report writing are usually lacking as well. Anyway, I might have left something out or you might have another opinion. Please share it. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Pete Theisen <petet >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Antibiotics + TCM >Thu, 14 Apr 2005 03:06:29 -0400 > >mike Bowser wrote: > > Zev, > > > > Much agreed. You are preaching to the choir. How do we initiate > " thought > > classes " to get students to think straight about this as many are >putting it > > all into western ideas and terminology? This seems to be the most > > important area for future investment in education. I still think we >need to > > consider creating a school that would have more to offer in this way. >Your > > thoughts? > >Hi Mike! > >It is a good idea in theory, but the 800 lb gorilla is the NCCAOM test >which must be passed if the student's education is to be of any >practical application. In my experience you have to teach to that test >and it leaves little time, money or energy for anything else. > >It certainly could seem that they want the students to fail, obviously >they get another fee on each retake. They will of course say the trick >questions are to insure quality doctors, but it could well be all about >money. > >They have the only game in town, spelled m-o-n-o-p-o-l-y. NCCAOM has the >only accreditation there is. > >I have never seen anything NCCAOM was involved in that wasn't the best >quality for their staff and executives. It certainly seems that they go >in style on other people's money. Accreditation of a new school will >most likely cost a million dollars before it is over, if you could even >get it that cheap. > >Regards, > >Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 mike Bowser wrote: Hi Mike! Inline: > Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that NCCAOM is about > practitioner certification and not accredidation. Accredidation comes from > ACAOM, which is a separate entity. You are probably right about the two names, it seemed to be the same *sort* of people, though. I mean as in always wanting to get their hands really, really deep into your pocket over and over again. Maybe even the *same* people if you get high enough. Or maybe they just looked like the same people, generic faces, it's been a while. > > My post was pointing out the need for quality in all areas and not a limited > focus. I think there is a lot that can be done to improve the quality of > the current education as well as being able to have grads that pass the > NCCAOM exam. In other words, turinging out quality graduates who are > prepared to run a practice. > > What tends to come to mind is in the area of western sciences, > business/practice management, etc. For some programs the classical side of > things could be vastly improved as could student development such as > needling. Students should know the why and where an idea comes from as well > as its usage. Medical billing and report writing are usually lacking as > well. Anyway, I might have left something out or you might have another > opinion. Please share it. > My point was that the students can't absorb all that in 3 or 4 years. It would help if the teachers *really* spoke English or the students *really* spoke Chinese, but that probably isn't going to happen. It doesn't help that after *all*that* the student still has to wait 5 to 10 years for a payoff! If the medicare bill would just pass this might change, but that, too, is a long shot. That statistic about 95% of graduates not practicing is very disturbing. TCM needs to hit a critical mass in political influence before it can solve these problems. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2005 Report Share Posted April 15, 2005 Pete, I got one for you. Since many states use the NCCAOM as a replacement for a state written test, did you know that some mandate that you continue to be a member as long as you are licensed? In other words, you pay state license fee and you also pay NCCAOM membership fee. Does this sound like a mixing of government and private sector that should not be? Membership beyond the initial license should be optional and not mixed up with a government license to practice. No other profession that I am aware of mandates such a thing. Please correct me if I am wrong. I disagree with you about absorption of material. I am in a chiro program and our sciences are medical school quality, they have to be for regional accredidation. You would be amazed what students can do when they are pushed to adapt. Our programs have had a tendency to pamper students too much. I might catch a lot of crap for this statement but from my experience it is true. My point in all of this was on quality of education and thought process as Zev has mentioned many times here yet we continue to here posters that want to argue in a medical way. If we really focused on creating programs that stressed certain key points and encouraged creative thinking for application the students would learn in no time. The 5% was a statistic from down under, I believe, and not accurate for the states. Keep up the faith and maybe we can brainstorm how a sample curriculum might look and how to focus on the key principles. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Pete Theisen <petet >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Antibiotics + TCM >Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:57:47 -0400 > >mike Bowser wrote: > >Hi Mike! > >Inline: > > > Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that NCCAOM is about > > practitioner certification and not accredidation. Accredidation comes >from > > ACAOM, which is a separate entity. > >You are probably right about the two names, it seemed to be the same >*sort* of people, though. I mean as in always wanting to get their hands >really, really deep into your pocket over and over again. Maybe even the >*same* people if you get high enough. Or maybe they just looked like the >same people, generic faces, it's been a while. > > > > My post was pointing out the need for quality in all areas and not a >limited > > focus. I think there is a lot that can be done to improve the quality >of > > the current education as well as being able to have grads that pass the > > NCCAOM exam. In other words, turinging out quality graduates who are > > prepared to run a practice. > > > > What tends to come to mind is in the area of western sciences, > > business/practice management, etc. For some programs the classical side >of > > things could be vastly improved as could student development such as > > needling. Students should know the why and where an idea comes from as >well > > as its usage. Medical billing and report writing are usually lacking as > > well. Anyway, I might have left something out or you might have another > > opinion. Please share it. > > >My point was that the students can't absorb all that in 3 or 4 years. It >would help if the teachers *really* spoke English or the students >*really* spoke Chinese, but that probably isn't going to happen. > >It doesn't help that after *all*that* the student still has to wait 5 to >10 years for a payoff! If the medicare bill would just pass this might >change, but that, too, is a long shot. That statistic about 95% of >graduates not practicing is very disturbing. > >TCM needs to hit a critical mass in political influence before it can >solve these problems. > >Regards, > >Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2005 Report Share Posted April 15, 2005 mike Bowser wrote: > Pete, I got one for you. Since many states use the NCCAOM as a > replacement for a state written test, did you know that some mandate > that you continue to be a member as long as you are licensed? In > other words, you pay state license fee and you also pay NCCAOM > membership fee. Does this sound like a mixing of government and > private sector that should not be? Membership beyond the initial > license should be optional and not mixed up with a government license > to practice. No other profession that I am aware of mandates such a > thing. Please correct me if I am wrong. > > I disagree with you about absorption of material. I am in a chiro > program Hi Mike! Chiro instructors speak English, the books were originally written in English, and chiro is part of Western culture, we aren't really talking about the same thing. Yeah, that stuff about NCCAOM is a travesty. I wonder how they managed that, or rather I wonder who they " got to " . I think Michigan at one time required MDs to be in the AMA, but maybe not. It isn't right if they do. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 Clear confusion between government and private sector hard to argue for governmental control are regulation. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Pete Theisen <petet >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Antibiotics + TCM >Fri, 15 Apr 2005 02:59:53 -0400 > >mike Bowser wrote: > > Pete, I got one for you. Since many states use the NCCAOM as a > > replacement for a state written test, did you know that some mandate > > that you continue to be a member as long as you are licensed? In > > other words, you pay state license fee and you also pay NCCAOM > > membership fee. Does this sound like a mixing of government and > > private sector that should not be? Membership beyond the initial > > license should be optional and not mixed up with a government license > > to practice. No other profession that I am aware of mandates such a > > thing. Please correct me if I am wrong. > > > > I disagree with you about absorption of material. I am in a chiro > > program > >Hi Mike! > >Chiro instructors speak English, the books were originally written in >English, and chiro is part of Western culture, we aren't really talking >about the same thing. > >Yeah, that stuff about NCCAOM is a travesty. I wonder how they managed >that, or rather I wonder who they " got to " . I think Michigan at one time >required MDs to be in the AMA, but maybe not. It isn't right if they do. > >Regards, > >Pete > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 In a message dated 4/16/2005 3:41:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Actually and in many ways the government is more efficient at its performance than the private sector. This does not boast well for letting the markets remain in control. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac That's interesting. Got any examples of where the Gov. is more efficient? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 mike Bowser wrote: > Clear confusion between government and private sector hard to argue for > governmental control are regulation. Hi Mike! The government will always mess it up, what concerns me it the private sector seems to be messing it up as well. All trying to line their own pockets before the front line practitioners make the first penny. Regards, Pete > > > >>Pete Theisen <petet >>Chinese Medicine >>Chinese Medicine >>Re: Antibiotics + TCM >>Fri, 15 Apr 2005 02:59:53 -0400 >> >>mike Bowser wrote: >> >>>Pete, I got one for you. Since many states use the NCCAOM as a >>>replacement for a state written test, did you know that some mandate >>>that you continue to be a member as long as you are licensed? In >>>other words, you pay state license fee and you also pay NCCAOM >>>membership fee. Does this sound like a mixing of government and >>>private sector that should not be? Membership beyond the initial >>>license should be optional and not mixed up with a government license >>>to practice. No other profession that I am aware of mandates such a >>>thing. Please correct me if I am wrong. >>> >>>I disagree with you about absorption of material. I am in a chiro >>>program >> >>Hi Mike! >> >>Chiro instructors speak English, the books were originally written in >>English, and chiro is part of Western culture, we aren't really talking >>about the same thing. >> >>Yeah, that stuff about NCCAOM is a travesty. I wonder how they managed >>that, or rather I wonder who they " got to " . I think Michigan at one time >>required MDs to be in the AMA, but maybe not. It isn't right if they do. >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 Actually and in many ways the government is more efficient at its performance than the private sector. This does not boast well for letting the markets remain in control. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Pete Theisen <petet >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Antibiotics + TCM >Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:12:49 -0400 > >mike Bowser wrote: > > Clear confusion between government and private sector hard to argue for > > governmental control are regulation. > >Hi Mike! > >The government will always mess it up, what concerns me it the private >sector seems to be messing it up as well. All trying to line their own >pockets before the front line practitioners make the first penny. > >Regards, > >Pete > > > > > > > >>Pete Theisen <petet > >>Chinese Medicine > >>Chinese Medicine > >>Re: Antibiotics + TCM > >>Fri, 15 Apr 2005 02:59:53 -0400 > >> > >>mike Bowser wrote: > >> > >>>Pete, I got one for you. Since many states use the NCCAOM as a > >>>replacement for a state written test, did you know that some mandate > >>>that you continue to be a member as long as you are licensed? In > >>>other words, you pay state license fee and you also pay NCCAOM > >>>membership fee. Does this sound like a mixing of government and > >>>private sector that should not be? Membership beyond the initial > >>>license should be optional and not mixed up with a government license > >>>to practice. No other profession that I am aware of mandates such a > >>>thing. Please correct me if I am wrong. > >>> > >>>I disagree with you about absorption of material. I am in a chiro > >>>program > >> > >>Hi Mike! > >> > >>Chiro instructors speak English, the books were originally written in > >>English, and chiro is part of Western culture, we aren't really talking > >>about the same thing. > >> > >>Yeah, that stuff about NCCAOM is a travesty. I wonder how they managed > >>that, or rather I wonder who they " got to " . I think Michigan at one time > >>required MDs to be in the AMA, but maybe not. It isn't right if they do. > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2005 Report Share Posted April 17, 2005 mike Bowser wrote: > Actually and in many ways the government is more efficient at its > performance than the private sector. This does not boast well for letting > the markets remain in control. Hi Mike! Yes, I am trying to use supply and demand in my practice, isn't really working. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 I agree whole heartedly. Why not open our discussion to other methods that help the body heal. Anne Pete Theisen wrote: > wrote: > > What kind of response is this? > > > > If what are are discussing and practicing is Chinese medicine, let's > > do that. > > Hi Z'ev! > > When I went to TCM medical school we learned both TCM and Western > medicine, I thought everyone did. If there is something OTC that will > help a patient, I think we should recommend it. If it is OTC, they > should not have to go to a MD to get it, or hear about it. Usually I am > criticized as being too TCM, so this is a departure in that sense. > > If you think that although time release vitamin c works for me in not > having colds, it won't work for anyone else - then, for heaven's sake, > don't recommend it. But this is a discussion list for patient's problems > as well as a discussion list for pages and pages of theory about what > the translations *really* mean etc., etc.. > > When I offered my reply to the issue it was if the vitamin c (or drug) > causes diarrhea, not if you use vitamin c at all. I think *time*release* > vitamin c is preferable to the drug, preferable to staying sick and > preferable to the diarrhea, even if it is not TCM. > > In my post I also mentioned it was not TCM. If you are determined to > deprecate anything that is not TCM that is your privilege, but as far as > I remember this is not one of the list rules that we deprecate (and > never mention) everything not TCM, particularly if we have found > something to work and work well. I think it is proper that we consider > such things. > > Regards, > > Pete > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > group requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other > academics, > > > > ------ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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