Antibiotics + TCM

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

 

I was wondering what you do when a patient is taking antibiotics? Do

you treat the condition the antibiotics are treating, or do you

support the spleen qi to deal with the antibiotics?

 

Just thought I'd see if anyone has any ideas on the subject.

 

Laura

[Guest guest]

Same here in Vancouver, B.C. But also have seen 6 develop into silent

pneumonias with very little cough and almost no fever.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

An interesting question.

 

The first issue is whether what the antibiotics are treating. A vast

majority of respiratory infections are viral, so the use of antibiotics

is not appropriate in these cases, and can damage the correct qi.

 

The second issue is the nature of antibiotics. Most modern sources

indicate that most antibiotics are bitter, cold, and can damage spleen

qi and the fluids ('bitter/cold medicinals damage yin').

 

Warm disease theory states that using too many bitter cold ingredients

in warm diseases can 'freeze the evil' inside the body, leading to a

chronic condition (for example, an extended period of coughing and

phlegm), or a latent condition that could recur later on.

 

The nature of whatever condition you are asked to treat will determine

if you decide to supplement qi or yin, or to support antibiotics in

clearing heat and resolving the evil qi, treating the antibiotic as

part of a larger prescription.

 

Applying Shang Han Lun theory, we can say that if the antibiotic (or

vitamin C) is used in too large a dose and causes diarrhea, then we may

get a more complex condition to treat, called a transmuted pattern.

 

 

On Apr 7, 2005, at 11:40 PM, heylaurag wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi all,

>

> I was wondering what you do when a patient is taking antibiotics? Do

> you treat the condition the antibiotics are treating, or do you

> support the spleen qi to deal with the antibiotics?

>

> Just thought I'd see if anyone has any ideas on the subject.

>

> Laura

>

[Guest guest]

I am curious to know what this flu season as been like around the country. In

the bay area we had an interesting one. While many did not get sick many that

did kept getting a new one every few weeks, upto 4 or so. Many of these people

have not been sick for years yet this year had repeated colds/flu, usually with

a bad cough. We have also had many weather extremes from warm days to cold a

rainy sometime even within the same day.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

We've been seeing the same thing up here in Victoria, BC, Canada.

 

Quoting <alonmarcus:

 

>

> I am curious to know what this flu season as been like around the country. In

> the bay area we had an interesting one. While many did not get sick many that

> did kept getting a new one every few weeks, upto 4 or so. Many of these

> people have not been sick for years yet this year had repeated colds/flu,

> usually with a bad cough. We have also had many weather extremes from warm

> days to cold a rainy sometime even within the same day.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Same down here in San Diego. We also had an unusually extreme winter

here, and there were flus and colds with bad coughs that would get

almost better and then act up again. In fact, it is still going on.

Wednesday it was 83 degrees, hot and dry. Today Friday it is 62

degrees, windy and damp.

 

 

On Apr 8, 2005, at 9:13 AM, wrote:

 

>

> I am curious to know what this flu season as been like around the

> country. In the bay area we had an interesting one. While many did not

> get sick many that did kept getting a new one every few weeks, upto 4

> or so. Many of these people have not been sick for years yet this year

> had repeated colds/flu, usually with a bad cough. We have also had

> many weather extremes from warm days to cold a rainy sometime even

> within the same day.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/8/2005 9:49:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

fiammasita writes:

we're

also having temps vary 20 degrees from day to day.

 

 

Is this a typo?

 

 

Chris

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thought I'd chime in as an east coaster...it was a terrible sick

season here too. i myself got my first respiratory infection in

over 15 years, and it was a baddie! bronchitis, with fever of 103

and hacking cough from hell. had many patients and friends with

similar illnesses, all lasting for quite extended periods. we're

also having temps vary 20 degrees from day to day.

 

Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev

Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> Same down here in San Diego. We also had an unusually extreme

winter

> here, and there were flus and colds with bad coughs that would get

> almost better and then act up again. In fact, it is still going

on.

> Wednesday it was 83 degrees, hot and dry. Today Friday it is 62

> degrees, windy and damp.

>

>

> On Apr 8, 2005, at 9:13 AM, wrote:

>

> >

> > I am curious to know what this flu season as been like around

the

> > country. In the bay area we had an interesting one. While many

did not

> > get sick many that did kept getting a new one every few weeks,

upto 4

> > or so. Many of these people have not been sick for years yet

this year

> > had repeated colds/flu, usually with a bad cough. We have also

had

> > many weather extremes from warm days to cold a rainy sometime

even

> > within the same day.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

wrote:

 

<snip>

 

if the antibiotic (or

> vitamin C) is used in too large a dose and causes diarrhea, then we may

 

Hi Z'ev!

 

If you use time release you can take a lot of vitamin C without causing

diarrhea, and effectively supply the immune system with enough vitamin C

to fight off practically any cold or flu out there.

 

Yes, I know this isn't 5 element, or even TCM, but in my experience it

is just too valuable to pass up.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

If you use time release you can take a lot of vitamin C without causing

diarrhea, and effectively supply the immune system with enough vitamin C

to fight off practically any cold or flu out there.

 

Yes, I know this isn't 5 element, or even TCM, but in my experience it

is just too valuable to pass up.

 

>>>>>>>Also it is interesting to note the the bowl tolerance, i.e. the dose

before one gets loose stools, often increased substantially when one is sick. I

have seen patients that can take upto 30-40 grams per day before they get loose

stools when sick and may be 3-10 g when not

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

May not be apropos, but by the Luck of the Innocents, here goes;

 

Very many microbes tend to live a happily commensal life in the

interesting nooks and

crannies of the body.

 

Then the lover breaks his heart

The enraged one rages off into the night

The grief stricken grinds on till Metal is rusted

The fearsome one becomes phobic

And the Obsessor obsesses on all these ...

 

And the die is cast, and the Antipathogenic Factor does not last, and ...

The little commensal turns renegade and says, " Gimme more, more, more! "

 

Which is an Infection

 

The obvious cue is to:

Have Lover move to fresh pastures.

The Rager create Blood and become civilized.

The griever let go and take to plumbing

The phobic drink rose petal tea and fall in love.

And Obsessor lean off center and stop compacting.

 

The antibiotic will simply decimate the bug, which will learn in time

and change a

gene from this helix to that, and return Triumphantly Resistant.

 

If oral it will do a number on ST, with predictable consecuamnces.

If parenteral, it will tilt Blood PH opening other doors to ill.

If nasal, there goes the delicate LU qi.

If per vaginal, one might as well say goodbye to unlubricated coitus.

If per rectal, the Harbinger of Mid Life Constipation looms ahead.

If sub dermal, the Wei Qi dances off kilter and Cold does an entre.

 

Antibiotics may come in, but never really go away.

 

Holmes

www.acu-free.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Is there a TCM opinion on vit C for treating constipation.

 

Ed Kasper LAc. Licensed Acupuncturist & Herbalist

Acupuncture is a jab well done

www.HappyHerbalist.com Santa Cruz, CA.

 

 

 

Sat, 9 Apr 2005 10:33:22 -0500

" " <alonmarcus

Re: Antibiotics + TCM

 

 

If you use time release you can take a lot of vitamin C

without causing

diarrhea, and effectively supply the immune system with

enough vitamin C

to fight off practically any cold or flu out there.

 

Yes, I know this isn't 5 element, or even TCM, but in my

experience it

is just too valuable to pass up.

 

>>>>>>>Also it is interesting to note the the bowl

tolerance, i.e. the dose before one gets loose stools, often

increased substantially when one is sick. I have seen

patients that can take upto 30-40 grams per day before they

get loose stools when sick and may be 3-10 g when not

 

[Guest guest]

Pete, Z'ev, Ed:

 

Found some interesting info on Vitamin C and Cherokee

rose, to bring the topic back to TCM:

 

from http://www.innvista.com/health/herbs/rose.htm

 

" Traditional Uses

The dried hips of the wild rose are especially high in

vitamin C, having three times that of citrus fruits,

and have long been used to prevent scurvy.

 

The Chinese use the flowers as a qi or energy

stimulant and blood tonic to relieve stagnant liver

energies. They are also used for digestive

irregularities or with motherwort for heavy

menstruation.

 

" Rosehip decoction is taken with other herbs to treat

chronic diarrhea associated with stomach weaknesses.

 

" The seeds of the Japanese rose are used in Oriental

medicine as a diuretic and laxative.

 

Regards, Jack

 

 

--- Pete Theisen <petet wrote:

> wrote:

>

> <snip>

>

> if the antibiotic (or

> > vitamin C) is used in too large a dose and causes

> diarrhea, then we may

>

> Hi Z'ev!

>

> If you use time release you can take a lot of

> vitamin C without causing

> diarrhea, and effectively supply the immune system

> with enough vitamin C

> to fight off practically any cold or flu out there.

>

> Yes, I know this isn't 5 element, or even TCM, but

> in my experience it

> is just too valuable to pass up.

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mail - You care about security. So do we.

 

[Guest guest]

Flaws, from memory classifies Vit C as cooling.

 

 

 

Jack Sweeney [mojavecowboy]

Sunday, 10 April 2005 12:05 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Antibiotics + TCM

 

 

Pete, Z'ev, Ed:

 

Found some interesting info on Vitamin C and Cherokee

rose, to bring the topic back to TCM:

 

from http://www.innvista.com/health/herbs/rose.htm

 

" Traditional Uses

The dried hips of the wild rose are especially high in

vitamin C, having three times that of citrus fruits,

and have long been used to prevent scurvy.

 

The Chinese use the flowers as a qi or energy

stimulant and blood tonic to relieve stagnant liver

energies. They are also used for digestive

irregularities or with motherwort for heavy

menstruation.

 

" Rosehip decoction is taken with other herbs to treat

chronic diarrhea associated with stomach weaknesses.

 

" The seeds of the Japanese rose are used in Oriental

medicine as a diuretic and laxative.

 

Regards, Jack

 

 

--- Pete Theisen <petet wrote:

> wrote:

>

> <snip>

>

> if the antibiotic (or

> > vitamin C) is used in too large a dose and causes

> diarrhea, then we may

>

> Hi Z'ev!

>

> If you use time release you can take a lot of

> vitamin C without causing

> diarrhea, and effectively supply the immune system

> with enough vitamin C

> to fight off practically any cold or flu out there.

>

> Yes, I know this isn't 5 element, or even TCM, but

> in my experience it

> is just too valuable to pass up.

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

>

>

 

 

 

 

Mail - You care about security. So do we.

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

 

 

----------

--

[Guest guest]

Ed Kasper LAc wrote:

> Is there a TCM opinion on vit C for treating constipation.

 

Hi Ed!

 

Good one!

 

Five peel, Rhubarb pills - don't have the book with me right now, but

look at the ingredients of the traditional constipation formulas and I

think you will find a lot of things that may contain quite a bit of

vitamin c. But TCM didn't ever identify vitamin c as such as far as I know.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Jack Sweeney wrote:

> Pete, Z'ev, Ed:

>

> Found some interesting info on Vitamin C and Cherokee

> rose, to bring the topic back to TCM:

>

> from http://www.innvista.com/health/herbs/rose.htm

>

 

Hi Jack!

 

Wonderful link, thanks.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

On Apr 8, 2005, at 10:13 AM, wrote:

 

> I am curious to know what this flu season as been like around the

> country. In the bay area we had an interesting one. While many did not

> get sick many that did kept getting a new one every few weeks, upto 4

> or so. Many of these people have not been sick for years yet this year

> had repeated colds/flu, usually with a bad cough. We have also had

> many weather extremes from warm days to cold a rainy sometime even

> within the same day.

>

>

 

Here in Denver we had had a particularly bad flu season. Most everyone

I know (patients, friends alike) have had at least one round of the

bug. Cough with lots of thick sticky phlegm that is difficult to

expectorate. Fever with the first round and up to 3 rounds with

anywhere from 1 - 5 weeks between illnesses. The cough tends to linger

for a long time after all the other symptoms have gone away. An MD did

swab tests and confirmed that the strain going around here was

different and not included in the flu vaccine this year. This explains

why even those who did get a flu shot still got quite sick. There was

also a strain of stomach flu (short lived) as well as a cold virus

going around. Even robust people who very rarely get sick have been

very sickly this season.

 

Other than consistently being extremely dry, our weather is quite

variable here in Denver as a rule all winter. For example, the past

few days have been sunny and in the 60s & 70s with a moderate breeze.

This morning I woke up to 6 inches of snow, freezing temperatures and

blizzard conditions. It is expected to be sunny and in the mid 60s

again by Tuesday/Wednesday. 40+ degree temperature drops in just a few

hours and very high winds are not unusual on the front range of

Colorado.

 

There also seemed to be no correlation between radical weather changes

and the bug(s) going around.

 

-judy

--

Judith C. Saxe, L.Ac.

Qing Ting Acupuncture LLC

Denver, Colorado

(303) 964-1996

http://www.QingTingAcupuncture.com

 

Acupuncture Association of Colorado

Vice President

Member Benefits Committee Chairman

http://www.acucol.com

[Guest guest]

Having lived and practiced in Colorado and New Mexico for ten years

before moving to California, I can say from my own observations and

notes that there is definitely a correlation between weather changes

and seasonal epidemics. Sometimes I'd find these bugs or colds taking

hold a few days before weather changes, as if the body was responding

to changes in the atmosphere before they occurred.

 

 

On Apr 10, 2005, at 10:36 AM, jude wrote:

 

>

> There also seemed to be no correlation between radical weather changes

> and the bug(s) going around.

>

> -judy

> --

[Guest guest]

I don't know about you, but I don't feel comfortable giving cold, moist

substances to patients with wind/cold attacks, or with spleen qi or

yang vacuity with damp or cold. It goes against the principles of

Chinese medicine. It might be appropriate with wind/heat attacks.

 

 

On Apr 9, 2005, at 12:56 AM, Pete Theisen wrote:

 

> Hi Z'ev!

>

> If you use time release you can take a lot of vitamin C without causing

> diarrhea, and effectively supply the immune system with enough vitamin

> C

> to fight off practically any cold or flu out there.

>

> Yes, I know this isn't 5 element, or even TCM, but in my experience it

> is just too valuable to pass up.

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

[Guest guest]

So, are you saying Z'ev, that vitamin C is a cold, moist substance? If so, who

was it that determined this and how was this determined? It cannot be from any

CM classic text. Matt Bauer

 

 

 

-

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, April 10, 2005 11:23 AM

Re: Antibiotics + TCM

 

 

I don't know about you, but I don't feel comfortable giving cold, moist

substances to patients with wind/cold attacks, or with spleen qi or

yang vacuity with damp or cold. It goes against the principles of

Chinese medicine. It might be appropriate with wind/heat attacks.

 

On Apr 9, 2005, at 12:56 AM, Pete Theisen wrote:

 

> Hi Z'ev!

>

> If you use time release you can take a lot of vitamin C without causing

> diarrhea, and effectively supply the immune system with enough vitamin

> C

> to fight off practically any cold or flu out there.

>

> Yes, I know this isn't 5 element, or even TCM, but in my experience it

> is just too valuable to pass up.

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

 

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click

on this link

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

nonope. we've had temps in the 50s and overcast one day and 70s and

beautiful the next.

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Musiclear@a...

wrote:

> In a message dated 4/8/2005 9:49:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> fiammasita@e... writes:

> we're

> also having temps vary 20 degrees from day to day.

>

>

> Is this a typo?

>

>

> Chris

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> I don't know about you, but I don't feel comfortable giving cold, moist

> substances to patients with wind/cold attacks, or with spleen qi or

> yang vacuity with damp or cold. It goes against the principles of

 

Hi Z'ev!

 

I have been using this myself for twenty plus years. TCM has no monopoly

on truth, we can learn from the likes of Linus Pauling.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Don' know if this relates, but the magnificent Jacaranda in our backyard

which would blood

on th dot in late March and stand royally purple through April, stands bare.

 

More dreadful, it is beginning to shed leaves, which it never does even

in mid winter.

 

Shades of global whatever?

 

Holmes.

 

fiammasita wrote:

 

>

>

> nonope. we've had temps in the 50s and overcast one day and 70s and

> beautiful the next.

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , Musiclear@a...

> wrote:

> > In a message dated 4/8/2005 9:49:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> > fiammasita@e... writes:

> > we're

> > also having temps vary 20 degrees from day to day.

> >

> >

> > Is this a typo?

> >

> >

> > Chris

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Global warming. or cooling.

 

Guangzhou is rainy and cold this morning. For the past

two years at least, south China has been sunny and

broiling, usually beginning in mid-March. We've had

few warm days so far this year.

 

The constant flux in temperature and weather has

brought on lots of colds.

 

Friends reported a late-arriving winter last year,

with snow coming later than usual in north China.

 

Regards, Jack

 

--- dkakobad <dkaikobad wrote:

> Don' know if this relates, but the magnificent

> Jacaranda in our backyard

> which would blood

> on th dot in late March and stand royally purple

> through April, stands bare.

>

> More dreadful, it is beginning to shed leaves, which

> it never does even

> in mid winter.

>

> Shades of global whatever?

>

> Holmes.

>

> fiammasita wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > nonope. we've had temps in the 50s and overcast

> one day and 70s and

> > beautiful the next.

> >

> >

> > --- In

> Chinese Medicine ,

> Musiclear@a...

> > wrote:

> > > In a message dated 4/8/2005 9:49:48 PM Eastern

> Daylight Time,

> > > fiammasita@e... writes:

> > > we're

> > > also having temps vary 20 degrees from day to

> day.

> > >

> > >

> > > Is this a typo?

> > >

> > >

> > > Chris

> > >

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > To translate this message, copy and paste it into

> this web link page,

> > http://babel.altavista.com/

> >

> >

> >

>

 

> and

> > adjust accordingly.

> >

> > Messages are the property of the author. Any

> duplication outside the

> > group requires prior permission from the author.

> >

> > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM

> with other

> > academics,

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

------

> > *

[Guest guest]

dkakobad wrote:

> Don' know if this relates, but the magnificent Jacaranda in our backyard

> which would blood

> on th dot in late March and stand royally purple through April, stands bare.

>

> More dreadful, it is beginning to shed leaves, which it never does even

> in mid winter.

>

> Shades of global whatever?

>

 

Hi Dr. Holmes!

 

I think it runs in cycles, people as old as I begin to see it. Last year

we had four hurricanes hit around here. Hasn't done that in years, won't

do it again in years.

 

Regards,

 

Pete