Guest guest Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 Hi all, I was wondering what you do when a patient is taking antibiotics? Do you treat the condition the antibiotics are treating, or do you support the spleen qi to deal with the antibiotics? Just thought I'd see if anyone has any ideas on the subject. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 Same here in Vancouver, B.C. But also have seen 6 develop into silent pneumonias with very little cough and almost no fever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 An interesting question. The first issue is whether what the antibiotics are treating. A vast majority of respiratory infections are viral, so the use of antibiotics is not appropriate in these cases, and can damage the correct qi. The second issue is the nature of antibiotics. Most modern sources indicate that most antibiotics are bitter, cold, and can damage spleen qi and the fluids ('bitter/cold medicinals damage yin'). Warm disease theory states that using too many bitter cold ingredients in warm diseases can 'freeze the evil' inside the body, leading to a chronic condition (for example, an extended period of coughing and phlegm), or a latent condition that could recur later on. The nature of whatever condition you are asked to treat will determine if you decide to supplement qi or yin, or to support antibiotics in clearing heat and resolving the evil qi, treating the antibiotic as part of a larger prescription. Applying Shang Han Lun theory, we can say that if the antibiotic (or vitamin C) is used in too large a dose and causes diarrhea, then we may get a more complex condition to treat, called a transmuted pattern. On Apr 7, 2005, at 11:40 PM, heylaurag wrote: > > > Hi all, > > I was wondering what you do when a patient is taking antibiotics? Do > you treat the condition the antibiotics are treating, or do you > support the spleen qi to deal with the antibiotics? > > Just thought I'd see if anyone has any ideas on the subject. > > Laura > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 I am curious to know what this flu season as been like around the country. In the bay area we had an interesting one. While many did not get sick many that did kept getting a new one every few weeks, upto 4 or so. Many of these people have not been sick for years yet this year had repeated colds/flu, usually with a bad cough. We have also had many weather extremes from warm days to cold a rainy sometime even within the same day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 We've been seeing the same thing up here in Victoria, BC, Canada. Quoting <alonmarcus: > > I am curious to know what this flu season as been like around the country. In > the bay area we had an interesting one. While many did not get sick many that > did kept getting a new one every few weeks, upto 4 or so. Many of these > people have not been sick for years yet this year had repeated colds/flu, > usually with a bad cough. We have also had many weather extremes from warm > days to cold a rainy sometime even within the same day. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 Same down here in San Diego. We also had an unusually extreme winter here, and there were flus and colds with bad coughs that would get almost better and then act up again. In fact, it is still going on. Wednesday it was 83 degrees, hot and dry. Today Friday it is 62 degrees, windy and damp. On Apr 8, 2005, at 9:13 AM, wrote: > > I am curious to know what this flu season as been like around the > country. In the bay area we had an interesting one. While many did not > get sick many that did kept getting a new one every few weeks, upto 4 > or so. Many of these people have not been sick for years yet this year > had repeated colds/flu, usually with a bad cough. We have also had > many weather extremes from warm days to cold a rainy sometime even > within the same day. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 In a message dated 4/8/2005 9:49:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, fiammasita writes: we're also having temps vary 20 degrees from day to day. Is this a typo? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2005 Report Share Posted April 9, 2005 Thought I'd chime in as an east coaster...it was a terrible sick season here too. i myself got my first respiratory infection in over 15 years, and it was a baddie! bronchitis, with fever of 103 and hacking cough from hell. had many patients and friends with similar illnesses, all lasting for quite extended periods. we're also having temps vary 20 degrees from day to day. Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Same down here in San Diego. We also had an unusually extreme winter > here, and there were flus and colds with bad coughs that would get > almost better and then act up again. In fact, it is still going on. > Wednesday it was 83 degrees, hot and dry. Today Friday it is 62 > degrees, windy and damp. > > > On Apr 8, 2005, at 9:13 AM, wrote: > > > > > I am curious to know what this flu season as been like around the > > country. In the bay area we had an interesting one. While many did not > > get sick many that did kept getting a new one every few weeks, upto 4 > > or so. Many of these people have not been sick for years yet this year > > had repeated colds/flu, usually with a bad cough. We have also had > > many weather extremes from warm days to cold a rainy sometime even > > within the same day. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2005 Report Share Posted April 9, 2005 wrote: <snip> if the antibiotic (or > vitamin C) is used in too large a dose and causes diarrhea, then we may Hi Z'ev! If you use time release you can take a lot of vitamin C without causing diarrhea, and effectively supply the immune system with enough vitamin C to fight off practically any cold or flu out there. Yes, I know this isn't 5 element, or even TCM, but in my experience it is just too valuable to pass up. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2005 Report Share Posted April 9, 2005 If you use time release you can take a lot of vitamin C without causing diarrhea, and effectively supply the immune system with enough vitamin C to fight off practically any cold or flu out there. Yes, I know this isn't 5 element, or even TCM, but in my experience it is just too valuable to pass up. >>>>>>>Also it is interesting to note the the bowl tolerance, i.e. the dose before one gets loose stools, often increased substantially when one is sick. I have seen patients that can take upto 30-40 grams per day before they get loose stools when sick and may be 3-10 g when not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2005 Report Share Posted April 9, 2005 May not be apropos, but by the Luck of the Innocents, here goes; Very many microbes tend to live a happily commensal life in the interesting nooks and crannies of the body. Then the lover breaks his heart The enraged one rages off into the night The grief stricken grinds on till Metal is rusted The fearsome one becomes phobic And the Obsessor obsesses on all these ... And the die is cast, and the Antipathogenic Factor does not last, and ... The little commensal turns renegade and says, " Gimme more, more, more! " Which is an Infection The obvious cue is to: Have Lover move to fresh pastures. The Rager create Blood and become civilized. The griever let go and take to plumbing The phobic drink rose petal tea and fall in love. And Obsessor lean off center and stop compacting. The antibiotic will simply decimate the bug, which will learn in time and change a gene from this helix to that, and return Triumphantly Resistant. If oral it will do a number on ST, with predictable consecuamnces. If parenteral, it will tilt Blood PH opening other doors to ill. If nasal, there goes the delicate LU qi. If per vaginal, one might as well say goodbye to unlubricated coitus. If per rectal, the Harbinger of Mid Life Constipation looms ahead. If sub dermal, the Wei Qi dances off kilter and Cold does an entre. Antibiotics may come in, but never really go away. Holmes www.acu-free.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2005 Report Share Posted April 10, 2005 Is there a TCM opinion on vit C for treating constipation. Ed Kasper LAc. Licensed Acupuncturist & Herbalist Acupuncture is a jab well done www.HappyHerbalist.com Santa Cruz, CA. Sat, 9 Apr 2005 10:33:22 -0500 " " <alonmarcus Re: Antibiotics + TCM If you use time release you can take a lot of vitamin C without causing diarrhea, and effectively supply the immune system with enough vitamin C to fight off practically any cold or flu out there. Yes, I know this isn't 5 element, or even TCM, but in my experience it is just too valuable to pass up. >>>>>>>Also it is interesting to note the the bowl tolerance, i.e. the dose before one gets loose stools, often increased substantially when one is sick. I have seen patients that can take upto 30-40 grams per day before they get loose stools when sick and may be 3-10 g when not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2005 Report Share Posted April 10, 2005 Pete, Z'ev, Ed: Found some interesting info on Vitamin C and Cherokee rose, to bring the topic back to TCM: from http://www.innvista.com/health/herbs/rose.htm " Traditional Uses The dried hips of the wild rose are especially high in vitamin C, having three times that of citrus fruits, and have long been used to prevent scurvy. The Chinese use the flowers as a qi or energy stimulant and blood tonic to relieve stagnant liver energies. They are also used for digestive irregularities or with motherwort for heavy menstruation. " Rosehip decoction is taken with other herbs to treat chronic diarrhea associated with stomach weaknesses. " The seeds of the Japanese rose are used in Oriental medicine as a diuretic and laxative. Regards, Jack --- Pete Theisen <petet wrote: > wrote: > > <snip> > > if the antibiotic (or > > vitamin C) is used in too large a dose and causes > diarrhea, then we may > > Hi Z'ev! > > If you use time release you can take a lot of > vitamin C without causing > diarrhea, and effectively supply the immune system > with enough vitamin C > to fight off practically any cold or flu out there. > > Yes, I know this isn't 5 element, or even TCM, but > in my experience it > is just too valuable to pass up. > > Regards, > > Pete > > Mail - You care about security. So do we. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2005 Report Share Posted April 10, 2005 Flaws, from memory classifies Vit C as cooling. Jack Sweeney [mojavecowboy] Sunday, 10 April 2005 12:05 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Antibiotics + TCM Pete, Z'ev, Ed: Found some interesting info on Vitamin C and Cherokee rose, to bring the topic back to TCM: from http://www.innvista.com/health/herbs/rose.htm " Traditional Uses The dried hips of the wild rose are especially high in vitamin C, having three times that of citrus fruits, and have long been used to prevent scurvy. The Chinese use the flowers as a qi or energy stimulant and blood tonic to relieve stagnant liver energies. They are also used for digestive irregularities or with motherwort for heavy menstruation. " Rosehip decoction is taken with other herbs to treat chronic diarrhea associated with stomach weaknesses. " The seeds of the Japanese rose are used in Oriental medicine as a diuretic and laxative. Regards, Jack --- Pete Theisen <petet wrote: > wrote: > > <snip> > > if the antibiotic (or > > vitamin C) is used in too large a dose and causes > diarrhea, then we may > > Hi Z'ev! > > If you use time release you can take a lot of > vitamin C without causing > diarrhea, and effectively supply the immune system > with enough vitamin C > to fight off practically any cold or flu out there. > > Yes, I know this isn't 5 element, or even TCM, but > in my experience it > is just too valuable to pass up. > > Regards, > > Pete > > Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. ---------- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2005 Report Share Posted April 10, 2005 Ed Kasper LAc wrote: > Is there a TCM opinion on vit C for treating constipation. Hi Ed! Good one! Five peel, Rhubarb pills - don't have the book with me right now, but look at the ingredients of the traditional constipation formulas and I think you will find a lot of things that may contain quite a bit of vitamin c. But TCM didn't ever identify vitamin c as such as far as I know. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2005 Report Share Posted April 10, 2005 Jack Sweeney wrote: > Pete, Z'ev, Ed: > > Found some interesting info on Vitamin C and Cherokee > rose, to bring the topic back to TCM: > > from http://www.innvista.com/health/herbs/rose.htm > Hi Jack! Wonderful link, thanks. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2005 Report Share Posted April 10, 2005 On Apr 8, 2005, at 10:13 AM, wrote: > I am curious to know what this flu season as been like around the > country. In the bay area we had an interesting one. While many did not > get sick many that did kept getting a new one every few weeks, upto 4 > or so. Many of these people have not been sick for years yet this year > had repeated colds/flu, usually with a bad cough. We have also had > many weather extremes from warm days to cold a rainy sometime even > within the same day. > > Here in Denver we had had a particularly bad flu season. Most everyone I know (patients, friends alike) have had at least one round of the bug. Cough with lots of thick sticky phlegm that is difficult to expectorate. Fever with the first round and up to 3 rounds with anywhere from 1 - 5 weeks between illnesses. The cough tends to linger for a long time after all the other symptoms have gone away. An MD did swab tests and confirmed that the strain going around here was different and not included in the flu vaccine this year. This explains why even those who did get a flu shot still got quite sick. There was also a strain of stomach flu (short lived) as well as a cold virus going around. Even robust people who very rarely get sick have been very sickly this season. Other than consistently being extremely dry, our weather is quite variable here in Denver as a rule all winter. For example, the past few days have been sunny and in the 60s & 70s with a moderate breeze. This morning I woke up to 6 inches of snow, freezing temperatures and blizzard conditions. It is expected to be sunny and in the mid 60s again by Tuesday/Wednesday. 40+ degree temperature drops in just a few hours and very high winds are not unusual on the front range of Colorado. There also seemed to be no correlation between radical weather changes and the bug(s) going around. -judy -- Judith C. Saxe, L.Ac. Qing Ting Acupuncture LLC Denver, Colorado (303) 964-1996 http://www.QingTingAcupuncture.com Acupuncture Association of Colorado Vice President Member Benefits Committee Chairman http://www.acucol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2005 Report Share Posted April 10, 2005 Having lived and practiced in Colorado and New Mexico for ten years before moving to California, I can say from my own observations and notes that there is definitely a correlation between weather changes and seasonal epidemics. Sometimes I'd find these bugs or colds taking hold a few days before weather changes, as if the body was responding to changes in the atmosphere before they occurred. On Apr 10, 2005, at 10:36 AM, jude wrote: > > There also seemed to be no correlation between radical weather changes > and the bug(s) going around. > > -judy > -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2005 Report Share Posted April 10, 2005 I don't know about you, but I don't feel comfortable giving cold, moist substances to patients with wind/cold attacks, or with spleen qi or yang vacuity with damp or cold. It goes against the principles of Chinese medicine. It might be appropriate with wind/heat attacks. On Apr 9, 2005, at 12:56 AM, Pete Theisen wrote: > Hi Z'ev! > > If you use time release you can take a lot of vitamin C without causing > diarrhea, and effectively supply the immune system with enough vitamin > C > to fight off practically any cold or flu out there. > > Yes, I know this isn't 5 element, or even TCM, but in my experience it > is just too valuable to pass up. > > Regards, > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2005 Report Share Posted April 10, 2005 So, are you saying Z'ev, that vitamin C is a cold, moist substance? If so, who was it that determined this and how was this determined? It cannot be from any CM classic text. Matt Bauer - Chinese Medicine Sunday, April 10, 2005 11:23 AM Re: Antibiotics + TCM I don't know about you, but I don't feel comfortable giving cold, moist substances to patients with wind/cold attacks, or with spleen qi or yang vacuity with damp or cold. It goes against the principles of Chinese medicine. It might be appropriate with wind/heat attacks. On Apr 9, 2005, at 12:56 AM, Pete Theisen wrote: > Hi Z'ev! > > If you use time release you can take a lot of vitamin C without causing > diarrhea, and effectively supply the immune system with enough vitamin > C > to fight off practically any cold or flu out there. > > Yes, I know this isn't 5 element, or even TCM, but in my experience it > is just too valuable to pass up. > > Regards, > > Pete http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click on this link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2005 Report Share Posted April 11, 2005 nonope. we've had temps in the 50s and overcast one day and 70s and beautiful the next. Chinese Medicine , Musiclear@a... wrote: > In a message dated 4/8/2005 9:49:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > fiammasita@e... writes: > we're > also having temps vary 20 degrees from day to day. > > > Is this a typo? > > > Chris > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2005 Report Share Posted April 11, 2005 wrote: > I don't know about you, but I don't feel comfortable giving cold, moist > substances to patients with wind/cold attacks, or with spleen qi or > yang vacuity with damp or cold. It goes against the principles of Hi Z'ev! I have been using this myself for twenty plus years. TCM has no monopoly on truth, we can learn from the likes of Linus Pauling. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2005 Report Share Posted April 11, 2005 Don' know if this relates, but the magnificent Jacaranda in our backyard which would blood on th dot in late March and stand royally purple through April, stands bare. More dreadful, it is beginning to shed leaves, which it never does even in mid winter. Shades of global whatever? Holmes. fiammasita wrote: > > > nonope. we've had temps in the 50s and overcast one day and 70s and > beautiful the next. > > > Chinese Medicine , Musiclear@a... > wrote: > > In a message dated 4/8/2005 9:49:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > fiammasita@e... writes: > > we're > > also having temps vary 20 degrees from day to day. > > > > > > Is this a typo? > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2005 Report Share Posted April 12, 2005 Global warming. or cooling. Guangzhou is rainy and cold this morning. For the past two years at least, south China has been sunny and broiling, usually beginning in mid-March. We've had few warm days so far this year. The constant flux in temperature and weather has brought on lots of colds. Friends reported a late-arriving winter last year, with snow coming later than usual in north China. Regards, Jack --- dkakobad <dkaikobad wrote: > Don' know if this relates, but the magnificent > Jacaranda in our backyard > which would blood > on th dot in late March and stand royally purple > through April, stands bare. > > More dreadful, it is beginning to shed leaves, which > it never does even > in mid winter. > > Shades of global whatever? > > Holmes. > > fiammasita wrote: > > > > > > > nonope. we've had temps in the 50s and overcast > one day and 70s and > > beautiful the next. > > > > > > --- In > Chinese Medicine , > Musiclear@a... > > wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/8/2005 9:49:48 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > > > fiammasita@e... writes: > > > we're > > > also having temps vary 20 degrees from day to > day. > > > > > > > > > Is this a typo? > > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into > this web link page, > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > > > and > > adjust accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > duplication outside the > > group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM > with other > > academics, > > > > > > > > > ------ > > * Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 dkakobad wrote: > Don' know if this relates, but the magnificent Jacaranda in our backyard > which would blood > on th dot in late March and stand royally purple through April, stands bare. > > More dreadful, it is beginning to shed leaves, which it never does even > in mid winter. > > Shades of global whatever? > Hi Dr. Holmes! I think it runs in cycles, people as old as I begin to see it. Last year we had four hurricanes hit around here. Hasn't done that in years, won't do it again in years. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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