Guest guest Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 I am largely a product of a professional school. I graduated quite recently in fact. School was difficult for me, not because I felt the academics were hard (in fact much of it was insultingly easy), but because I felt that so much of it was just memorization and very basic theory. I get the basic TCM theory. I pretty much got that down my first year. Point location and indication. Got that basic TCM stuff in my first year too. Herbs? Like Sharon said, the way they were taught it turned me off of them. Now that I am in practice, I am enjoying the herbs I use (Kan Extracts) and am excited and impressed with the results with my patients. Now I want to learn more. I took an Ayrvedic herbal seminar last year which was awesome. We focused on only about a dozen herbs, but tasted them, gave our subjective impressions about qualities, tastes etc. We sat around and discussed our impressions and what we felt the energetics were about. It brought a deeper awareness to the herbs and a greater intimacy. They weren't just a difficult to remember pinyin name attached to an abstract function. I met with a master herbalist here in Phoenix AZ recently and she mentored students for 3 years just in herbs. It is intensive learning by doing with far less emphasis on memorizing. She has her students grow the herbs, prepare them, taste them, and experiment with them. I was lucky to have some non-TCM instructors in my school (5-Element, Japanese and someone heavily influenced by Jeffery Yuen) and I took as many clinics with them as I could. I am so grateful that I was able to learn a little about the deeper aspects of the medicine in a TCM school. I'm only about ankle deep now, but this water looks so inviting and full of life and vitality. I can feel it in my blood. TCM seems cold and stagnate to me like just an academic exercise. Like Sharon said, I think TCM is important to learn and is probably the only form of the medicine that could be standardized like it has been. It is a good place to start and perhaps a good way for NCCAOM to make tests that determine a minimal level of competency. But I want to learn more about moving Qi, about finding the points the way the ancients did not by just anatomical location. I want to be a conduit of a living and vital medicine, not someone that just sticks needles in patients based on a cookbook style protocol. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 mike Bowser [naturaldoc1] Thursday, March 31, 2005 6:41 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis Sharon, Why don't we just change the way acupuncture is taught? This brings us back to a previous topic on education and how we might want to look at developing our own diagnostic abilities and a common sense approach (you mention below) within the students. I think that our professional schools may be failing us in this as they focus mainly on rote memorization, not developing your sense of touch, smell and hearing and what these bring to the dance. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > <> >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis >Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:22:14 +1000 > >Hi Attilio, >I know that about year 3-5 of practice I became fearful of what I was doing >in clinic, especially what I didn't know which seemed a lot. I hoped at >times people would ring up and cancel their appointments. I eventually >learnt to use my fear to find out more. I would ask 'What are the points >to >treat Fibromyalgia?' The teacher an Englishman practicing in Japan, just >looked at me with a blank face. It seemed I was asking the wrong question. > >Last year WFAS on the Gold Coast, Australia, I was grateful that I no >longer >based my treatment on the 8 Principles and that I no longer sort a string >of >acupoints to treat disease and syndromes. Don't get me wrong, I do use >these at times, I would be a fool if I didn't. I have just moved on from >treating syndromes to treating the energetic system/s of the person. > >I do think I know what you mean about the herbalisation. > >I went back part time to up grade to a 4 yr Bachelor of Health Science >(Acupuncture) degree, and had to complete by rote learning subjects on >herbs >and herbal formulae. Rote learning for me is not a strength and I felt >pretty much not only was it a waste of time and effort, it actually turned >me off herbs.... yet it was a requirement I meet. Here I could see though >how acupoints were put together much the way a herbal formulae was put >together. > >At one stage I started studying with a practitioner in his workshops who >treats no more than four points and does no moxa or herbs. I just couldn't >get his logic, other participants seemed to understand which points and why >according to how he interpreted the pulse, yet it left me still quite >confused. > >Then as I studied some Manaka protocols and Toyohari meridian styles I >found >things that made sense. > >These included: >1. A feedback system so that I had a way of knowing what I was doing and >if >it was working, and if not then to look, feel, listen and smell again. >2. A logical procession of making a root treatment based on one of several >diagnostic systems, through to making symptomatic pain relief treatment. >3. A bunch of practitioners to learn and grow old with. These people are >both local to me and in many countries around the world. >4. A systematic pulse taking process that told me more than speed, depth, >strength. >5. Nothing was used for diagnostic purposes unless it can change during >the >course of the treatment, so not much tongue work is done. >6. Access to the 'rules' ie midday- midnight, 5 element relationships etc. >When you understand principles, it is easier to make a treatment. Then I >have this logical procession of treatment, for me it is starting with the >Yin of the body and then progressing to the Yang meridians, I have a >generic >recipe that I can follow and I can still add me and my unique flavour to >the >mix. This approach is common to different styles of meridian therapy, it >is >a step by step approach. > >I no longer think well this is Kidney yang deficiency, so I could use Kd 3, >or Kid Shu or .... so on and so forth... heck might as well throw them all >in ..... Now I find a diagnostic point, it might be hardness on the >meridian >or tightness on the PSIS or Abdominal mu points, whatever acupoints I treat >must make a change to the selected diagnostic points during the course of >the treatment. I may just follow a Toyohari protocol, or use some of their >amazing symptomatic treatment tools and techniques. > >I think Holmes said something before about don't just release the trigger >point, use a distal point to release it. Well it is that kind of approach. >If the trigger point is the messenger, then use it as a messenger. Treat >another point and see if the messenger changes. > >So is it that you want to change your approach or that you want to change >the way acupuncture is predominately taught? >Best wishes, > > > > > Attilio D'Alberto [attiliodalberto] > Thursday, 31 March 2005 10:30 PM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis > > > Hi Sharon, > > I'm not happy the way acupuncture has taken on the syndrome >differentiation > style of herbal medicine (herbalised). What happened to looking at the > pattern of Zangfu disharmony in relation to Yin Yang, excess and >deficiency, > along with palpation, looking for nodules, blockages and rebalancing the > Zangfu. I don't like the structure imposed on acupuncture syndrome > differentiation. It fits herbal medicine well but not acupuncture. I >want > something more loose, flexible, balancing, if you know what I mean. > > Kind regards > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > 07786198900 > attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com > > > Sharon [] > 31 March 2005 11:53 > Chinese Medicine > RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis > > > Attilio, > > What is it that you find unsatisfactory with your current theoretical >and > clinical approach to your patients? > Best wishes, > > > > Attilio D'Alberto [attiliodalberto] > Thursday, 31 March 2005 7:35 PM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis > > > Many thanks Robert, that helps. > > Often, I really wonder as to how effective modern acupuncture is. The > style > I've been taught, modern PRC TCM that has been 'herbalised' really >leaves > me > to wonder what the hell I'm doing to patients. I'm sure many others >share > my > thoughts. I really believe that there is a better form of acupuncture >out > there that is based on more traditional teachings. Can anyone offer >any > insights into this dilemma? > > Kind regards > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > 07786198900 > attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com > > > Robert Chu [chusauli] > 31 March 2005 01:36 > Chinese Medicine > RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis > > > Hi Attilio, > > Real 5 elements acupuncture is classical acupuncture. It is the >system > mentioned in the Su Wen, Ling Shu, and the Nan Jing. Here, one >flexibly > uses the mother/son, Ben (horary), Luo, Xi, Xia He, Yuan and the >elemental > designations of the 5 shu points to treat all diseases. For example, >if > there is Asthma, one could us the water point of the metal channel or >the > metal point of the water channel to treat. Also one diagnoses by > " Wood > invading Earth " , etc. > > I would say Sa Am (Korean) and Meridian Therapy (Japanese) are >derivatives > of the classical style, but have their cultural flavor. Worsley is an > offshoot, but has modern Worsley interpretation (i.e. the " spirit " of >the > points and the Causative Factor are " Worsley-isms " and not Classically > Chinese. Also Akabane technique is clearly Japanese influence). Of > course, > > all systems are made for practice, not debate. > > 8 Principles is modern TCM and derives from herbals. The classical > Acupuncture texts (Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion by Cheng Xin >Nong > is > not one of the the classics. ), do not have Kidney Qi deficiency as >a > diagnosis - this is clearly herbal influence. So I hope I answered >your > question. > > Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD > chusauli > > See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com > > > > > > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto > >Chinese Medicine > ><Chinese Medicine > > > Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis > >Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:56:32 +0100 > > > > > >Hi all, > > > >Can somebody please tell me what it means to be trained in 'five >element > >and > >eight principle diagnosis' TCM? Is this real TCM/CM or the Worsely > branch? > > > >Kind regards > > > >Attilio D'Alberto > >Doctor of (Beijing, China) > >BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > >07786198900 > >attiliodalberto > > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 Like Sharon said, I think TCM is important to learn and is probably the only form of the medicine that could be standardized like it has been. It is a good place to start and perhaps a good way for NCCAOM to make tests that determine a minimal level of competency. But I want to learn more about moving Qi, about finding the points the way the ancients did not by just anatomical location. I want to be a conduit of a living and vital medicine, not someone that just sticks needles in patients based on a cookbook style protocol. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture http://www.oasisacupuncture.com MM: hello, i am in wisconsin and i want to study acupuncture and oriental medicine. recently, some people have written me privately and told me about the different standards for training. i am interested in going to the best schools possible. is it true that california standards are the highest? also, are there any schools in the midwest where i could be educated with these higher standards? i would like to learn more on this issue. i guess im looking at going down to chicago now. thanks. mercurius trismegistus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.