Guest guest Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 I'll agree with Z'ev, here. Anatomy is a strong point of biomedicine, and I think any " tubes " would have been discovered by now. I also think a physical " fluid " couldn't account for the speed of acupuncture nor the extreme non-locality of many point selections. The latest study in Germany using infrared cameras points to a light (photon) / electromagnetic phenomenon that travels according to well-established laws of physics. Indeed, physics can explain the distal action of points if one sees the propagation of information through the body as a phenomenon of standing EM waves transmitting signals in a nonlinear fashion. The points are merely relays / amplifiers in a complex web. The meridians may be where that information flow gets concentrated, but the signals may reflect/refract over a very wide area (i.e. internal/external pairings, secondary vessels, and the myriad other interconnections). The sheer variety of practice and theory in acupuncture is probably due to the web-like structure of the channels - there are many ways to give and receive input in a web, as opposed to a more linear " tube " system. It also explains why non-point (placebo) needling can still give a certain measure of results, especially in comparison to cookbook acupuncture (the standard in clinical trials). Non-points are still connected to the web, but just more weakly. They still carry information, and possibly intention. The patient wants to get better, so the energy may be directed to that area of pain / dysfunction by that healing intention even if it doesn't originate from a strong acupoint. Conversely, if a patient doesn't want to heal, the signal can get squelched. An opinion. Benjamin Hawes, MAOM, Lic. Ac., CORTEZ FAMILY ACUPUNCTURE 1430 E. Main Street, Suite #4 Cortez, CO 81321 (970) 565-0230 > Message: 11 > Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:00:27 -0800 > " " <zrosenbe > Re: Four Gates Junkies > > Mike, > Perhaps we are too limited in how we see the phenomena of the body, > but why does everything have to be 'physical'? We know orbits of > planets are real, but can we see them? The Chinese discovered a > functional system called the triple burner, said in the Nan Jing to > have 'function, but no form'. Does that mean it is not real. To me it > is more unrealistic to shove the concept of the channel/network vessel > system into the construct of anatomy/physiology. > > > On Mar 27, 2005, at 6:08 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > Is it not possible that there might be a possibility that jing luo mai > > might > > have a physical basis? I remember the research work conducted by Kim > > Bonghan, Pierre de Vernajoule and Kwang Sup-Soh. In the first and last > > names mentioned, physical structures (conduits) were identified. > > Bonghan > > identified liquid contents as well. The second name mentioned did his > > Ph D > > with human subjects and measured the movements of a radioactive > > isotope thru > > the jing luo mai. I am not expecting an exact one to one with these > > discoveries but so far it seems that ancient knowledge and research > > are in > > sync. > > When I hear practitioners speak only of TCM/OM as if it is > > metaphorical only > > it makes me wonder if we can ever embrace such profound info or if we > > will > > reject it due to dogma. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Hi all, Recent research conducted by Schlebusch, Maric-Oehler and Popp (2005) is a major breakthrough in the long standing hunt for the existence of the Jinglou. Previous research studies (XX), concentrated their efforts on finding the meridian system using acupuncture. None were able to conclusively prove that the Jinglou existed. They were however, able to prove that particular acupoints stimulated areas of the body, including the brain. The new study by Schlebusch, Maric-Oehler and Popp (2005) reverses this by observing thermal imagery changes within the body when moxibustion is applied against particular acupuncture points. No symptoms were intended to be treated during the study and no symptom pattern analyses were conducted before, during or after the study. Only changes in the meridians themselves were observed during the application of moxibustion when viewed with thermal imagery equipment. Various studies have suggested that acupuncture illicit an electrical response within the body. Research by Becker (cited in Gerber 2000) found that the DC (Direct-Current) electrical-control system tended to transmit information by slowly varying the electrical charge or voltage of glial cell membranes. Becker suggests that the meridians are electrical conductors that carried an injury message to the brain, which responded by sending back the appropriate level of direct current to stimulate healing in the troubled area. The idea that acupuncture responds and initiates electrical reaction has now been further supported by the Schlebusch, Maric-Oehler and Popp (2005) study, which notes that living matter, including the Jinglou, are in a permanently electronically exited state. What was lacking from Schlebusch, Maric-Oehler and Popp (2005) study was the exact list of acupoints stimulated using moxibustion. It was interesting to note that the whole meridian was stimulated and that heat could be observed along the entire channel. Also, interestingly was as one meridian was stimulated, its paired meridian was also affected. In the study, the Stomach and Spleen were both stimulated separately (acupoint not given), both showed a response at the same time. This fits with the Nei Jing theory of paired organs amongst the Zangfu. However, when an acupoint (not specified) was stimulated on the Urinary Bladder it was not noted if its paired organ the Kidney was stimulated. The question of whether the collaterals were equally stimulated by moxibustion still remains unclear. As this new theory of proving the existence of the Jinglou using moxibustion and thermal imagery has been put forward, it is up to other researchers to duplicate Schlebusch, Maric-Oehler and Popp (2005) study and observe if the same findings can be successfully replicated. Unfortunately, as the exact acupoints used in the study were not given along with make and brand of moxa stick used, some degree of variability exists. In addition, no qualified acupuncturist was mentioned in the study. This again can cause a degree of variability as only a qualified acupuncturist should illicit a response from an acupuncture point using moxibustion. However, as no qualified acupuncturist was used in the study, some degree of blindness may be included in the giving of treatment, I.e. moxibustion and therefore it can be argued that the study was of better methodological quality. It is still unclear as to how researchers can observe, analyse and measure the Jinglou using acupuncture. Recent research by Jiang et al. (2004) in South Korea has shown the possible anatomical existence of the Jinglou. Further quality research is needed to explore this exciting area of research. References Gerber, R. (2000). Vibrational Medicine for the 21st century. Santa Fe: Bear & Company. Jiang, X., Lee, C., Choi, C., Baik, K., Soh, K., Kim, H., Shin, H., Soh, K. & Cheun, B. (2004). 'Threadlike bundle of tubules running inside blood vessels: New anatomical structure', Unpublished. Schlebusch, K., Maric-Oehler, W. & Popp, F. (2005). 'Biophotonics in the Infrared Spectral Range Reveal Acupuncture Meridian Structure of the Body', Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, 11, (1), p171-173. Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Benjamin Hawes [ben_laura] 28 March 2005 17:41 Chinese Medicine RE: channel reality I'll agree with Z'ev, here. Anatomy is a strong point of biomedicine, and I think any " tubes " would have been discovered by now. I also think a physical " fluid " couldn't account for the speed of acupuncture nor the extreme non-locality of many point selections. The latest study in Germany using infrared cameras points to a light (photon) / electromagnetic phenomenon that travels according to well-established laws of physics. Indeed, physics can explain the distal action of points if one sees the propagation of information through the body as a phenomenon of standing EM waves transmitting signals in a nonlinear fashion. The points are merely relays / amplifiers in a complex web. The meridians may be where that information flow gets concentrated, but the signals may reflect/refract over a very wide area (i.e. internal/external pairings, secondary vessels, and the myriad other interconnections). The sheer variety of practice and theory in acupuncture is probably due to the web-like structure of the channels - there are many ways to give and receive input in a web, as opposed to a more linear " tube " system. It also explains why non-point (placebo) needling can still give a certain measure of results, especially in comparison to cookbook acupuncture (the standard in clinical trials). Non-points are still connected to the web, but just more weakly. They still carry information, and possibly intention. The patient wants to get better, so the energy may be directed to that area of pain / dysfunction by that healing intention even if it doesn't originate from a strong acupoint. Conversely, if a patient doesn't want to heal, the signal can get squelched. An opinion. Benjamin Hawes, MAOM, Lic. Ac., CORTEZ FAMILY ACUPUNCTURE 1430 E. Main Street, Suite #4 Cortez, CO 81321 (970) 565-0230 > Message: 11 > Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:00:27 -0800 > " " <zrosenbe > Re: Four Gates Junkies > > Mike, > Perhaps we are too limited in how we see the phenomena of the body, > but why does everything have to be 'physical'? We know orbits of > planets are real, but can we see them? The Chinese discovered a > functional system called the triple burner, said in the Nan Jing to > have 'function, but no form'. Does that mean it is not real. To me it > is more unrealistic to shove the concept of the channel/network vessel > system into the construct of anatomy/physiology. > > > On Mar 27, 2005, at 6:08 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > Is it not possible that there might be a possibility that jing luo mai > > might > > have a physical basis? I remember the research work conducted by Kim > > Bonghan, Pierre de Vernajoule and Kwang Sup-Soh. In the first and last > > names mentioned, physical structures (conduits) were identified. > > Bonghan > > identified liquid contents as well. The second name mentioned did his > > Ph D > > with human subjects and measured the movements of a radioactive > > isotope thru > > the jing luo mai. I am not expecting an exact one to one with these > > discoveries but so far it seems that ancient knowledge and research > > are in > > sync. > > When I hear practitioners speak only of TCM/OM as if it is > > metaphorical only > > it makes me wonder if we can ever embrace such profound info or if we > > will > > reject it due to dogma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 This is interesting and important as it helps to show pathways as well as the importance of moxa in care. We need to bring this info along with other info on electrical properties, and physical and chemical structures that have been ID by various Korean and French together so that we can make some intelligible sense of it all. This does not mean we ignore our heritage. This info can help to explain to the public and the other professionals that we have some idea of what we speak and gives us a better foothold for future ops. When we limit our discussions to western chemistry or anatomy but do not include other info we get a very skewed idea of reality. If one asks a chemist, a virologist and a geneticist the cause of illness you will get 3 completely different answers. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: RE: channel reality >Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:57:27 +0100 > >Hi all, > > > >Recent research conducted by Schlebusch, Maric-Oehler and Popp (2005) is a >major breakthrough in the long standing hunt for the existence of the >Jinglou. Previous research studies (XX), concentrated their efforts on >finding the meridian system using acupuncture. None were able to >conclusively prove that the Jinglou existed. They were however, able to >prove that particular acupoints stimulated areas of the body, including the >brain. The new study by Schlebusch, Maric-Oehler and Popp (2005) reverses >this by observing thermal imagery changes within the body when moxibustion >is applied against particular acupuncture points. No symptoms were intended >to be treated during the study and no symptom pattern analyses were >conducted before, during or after the study. Only changes in the meridians >themselves were observed during the application of moxibustion when viewed >with thermal imagery equipment. > > > >Various studies have suggested that acupuncture illicit an electrical >response within the body. Research by Becker (cited in Gerber 2000) found >that the DC (Direct-Current) electrical-control system tended to transmit >information by slowly varying the electrical charge or voltage of glial >cell >membranes. Becker suggests that the meridians are electrical conductors >that >carried an injury message to the brain, which responded by sending back the >appropriate level of direct current to stimulate healing in the troubled >area. The idea that acupuncture responds and initiates electrical reaction >has now been further supported by the Schlebusch, Maric-Oehler and Popp >(2005) study, which notes that living matter, including the Jinglou, are in >a permanently electronically exited state. > > > >What was lacking from Schlebusch, Maric-Oehler and Popp (2005) study was >the >exact list of acupoints stimulated using moxibustion. It was interesting to >note that the whole meridian was stimulated and that heat could be observed >along the entire channel. Also, interestingly was as one meridian was >stimulated, its paired meridian was also affected. In the study, the >Stomach >and Spleen were both stimulated separately (acupoint not given), both >showed >a response at the same time. This fits with the Nei Jing theory of paired >organs amongst the Zangfu. However, when an acupoint (not specified) was >stimulated on the Urinary Bladder it was not noted if its paired organ the >Kidney was stimulated. The question of whether the collaterals were equally >stimulated by moxibustion still remains unclear. > > > >As this new theory of proving the existence of the Jinglou using >moxibustion >and thermal imagery has been put forward, it is up to other researchers to >duplicate Schlebusch, Maric-Oehler and Popp (2005) study and observe if the >same findings can be successfully replicated. Unfortunately, as the exact >acupoints used in the study were not given along with make and brand of >moxa >stick used, some degree of variability exists. In addition, no qualified >acupuncturist was mentioned in the study. This again can cause a degree of >variability as only a qualified acupuncturist should illicit a response >from >an acupuncture point using moxibustion. However, as no qualified >acupuncturist was used in the study, some degree of blindness may be >included in the giving of treatment, I.e. moxibustion and therefore it can >be argued that the study was of better methodological quality. > > > >It is still unclear as to how researchers can observe, analyse and measure >the Jinglou using acupuncture. Recent research by Jiang et al. (2004) in >South Korea has shown the possible anatomical existence of the Jinglou. >Further quality research is needed to explore this exciting area of >research. > > > > >References > > > >Gerber, R. (2000). Vibrational Medicine for the 21st century. Santa Fe: >Bear > & Company. > > > >Jiang, X., Lee, C., Choi, C., Baik, K., Soh, K., Kim, H., Shin, H., Soh, K. > & Cheun, B. (2004). 'Threadlike bundle of tubules running inside blood >vessels: New anatomical structure', Unpublished. > > > >Schlebusch, K., Maric-Oehler, W. & Popp, F. (2005). 'Biophotonics in the >Infrared Spectral Range Reveal Acupuncture Meridian Structure of the Body', >Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, 11, (1), p171-173. > > > >Kind regards > >Attilio D'Alberto >Doctor of (Beijing, China) >BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM >07786198900 >attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com > > >Benjamin Hawes [ben_laura] >28 March 2005 17:41 >Chinese Medicine >RE: channel reality > > >I'll agree with Z'ev, here. Anatomy is a strong point of biomedicine, and I >think any " tubes " would have been discovered by now. I also think a >physical > " fluid " couldn't account for the speed of acupuncture nor the extreme >non-locality of many point selections. The latest study in Germany using >infrared cameras points to a light (photon) / electromagnetic phenomenon >that travels according to well-established laws of physics. Indeed, physics >can explain the distal action of points if one sees the propagation of >information through the body as a phenomenon of standing EM waves >transmitting signals in a nonlinear fashion. The points are merely relays / >amplifiers in a complex web. The meridians may be where that information >flow gets concentrated, but the signals may reflect/refract over a very >wide >area (i.e. internal/external pairings, secondary vessels, and the myriad >other interconnections). The sheer variety of practice and theory in >acupuncture is probably due to the web-like structure of the channels - >there are many ways to give and receive input in a web, as opposed to a >more >linear " tube " system. It also explains why non-point (placebo) needling can >still give a certain measure of results, especially in comparison to >cookbook acupuncture (the standard in clinical trials). Non-points are >still >connected to the web, but just more weakly. They still carry information, >and possibly intention. The patient wants to get better, so the energy may >be directed to that area of pain / dysfunction by that healing intention >even if it doesn't originate from a strong acupoint. Conversely, if a >patient doesn't want to heal, the signal can get squelched. > >An opinion. > > >Benjamin Hawes, MAOM, Lic. Ac., >Director > >CORTEZ FAMILY ACUPUNCTURE >1430 E. Main Street, Suite #4 >Cortez, CO 81321 >(970) 565-0230 > > > > > Message: 11 > > Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:00:27 -0800 > > " " <zrosenbe > > Re: Four Gates Junkies > > > > Mike, > > Perhaps we are too limited in how we see the phenomena of the body, > > but why does everything have to be 'physical'? We know orbits of > > planets are real, but can we see them? The Chinese discovered a > > functional system called the triple burner, said in the Nan Jing to > > have 'function, but no form'. Does that mean it is not real. To me it > > is more unrealistic to shove the concept of the channel/network vessel > > system into the construct of anatomy/physiology. > > > > > > On Mar 27, 2005, at 6:08 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > > > Is it not possible that there might be a possibility that jing luo mai > > > might > > > have a physical basis? I remember the research work conducted by Kim > > > Bonghan, Pierre de Vernajoule and Kwang Sup-Soh. In the first and >last > > > names mentioned, physical structures (conduits) were identified. > > > Bonghan > > > identified liquid contents as well. The second name mentioned did his > > > Ph D > > > with human subjects and measured the movements of a radioactive > > > isotope thru > > > the jing luo mai. I am not expecting an exact one to one with these > > > discoveries but so far it seems that ancient knowledge and research > > > are in > > > sync. > > > When I hear practitioners speak only of TCM/OM as if it is > > > metaphorical only > > > it makes me wonder if we can ever embrace such profound info or if we > > > will > > > reject it due to dogma. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 This is one important effect and probably part of many others as well that are connected with the channels. Open inquiry and discussions are what we need as this is a very complex set of issues and functions. An explanation of certain connections to jing, hormonal regulation, growth and development, etc is better explained with connections to said structures. I would hope that any and all that might be interested would check out the research and results (pdf files with photos) posted at the Biomedical Physics Lab. Their site is at http://kmc.snu.ac.kr/Aframe.htm Thanks Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Benjamin Hawes " <ben_laura >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > > RE: channel reality >Mon, 28 Mar 2005 09:41:24 -0700 > >I'll agree with Z'ev, here. Anatomy is a strong point of biomedicine, and I >think any " tubes " would have been discovered by now. I also think a >physical > " fluid " couldn't account for the speed of acupuncture nor the extreme >non-locality of many point selections. The latest study in Germany using >infrared cameras points to a light (photon) / electromagnetic phenomenon >that travels according to well-established laws of physics. Indeed, physics >can explain the distal action of points if one sees the propagation of >information through the body as a phenomenon of standing EM waves >transmitting signals in a nonlinear fashion. The points are merely relays / >amplifiers in a complex web. The meridians may be where that information >flow gets concentrated, but the signals may reflect/refract over a very >wide >area (i.e. internal/external pairings, secondary vessels, and the myriad >other interconnections). The sheer variety of practice and theory in >acupuncture is probably due to the web-like structure of the channels - >there are many ways to give and receive input in a web, as opposed to a >more >linear " tube " system. It also explains why non-point (placebo) needling can >still give a certain measure of results, especially in comparison to >cookbook acupuncture (the standard in clinical trials). Non-points are >still >connected to the web, but just more weakly. They still carry information, >and possibly intention. The patient wants to get better, so the energy may >be directed to that area of pain / dysfunction by that healing intention >even if it doesn't originate from a strong acupoint. Conversely, if a >patient doesn't want to heal, the signal can get squelched. > >An opinion. > > >Benjamin Hawes, MAOM, Lic. Ac., >Director > >CORTEZ FAMILY ACUPUNCTURE >1430 E. Main Street, Suite #4 >Cortez, CO 81321 >(970) 565-0230 > > > > > Message: 11 > > Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:00:27 -0800 > > " " <zrosenbe > > Re: Four Gates Junkies > > > > Mike, > > Perhaps we are too limited in how we see the phenomena of the body, > > but why does everything have to be 'physical'? We know orbits of > > planets are real, but can we see them? The Chinese discovered a > > functional system called the triple burner, said in the Nan Jing to > > have 'function, but no form'. Does that mean it is not real. To me it > > is more unrealistic to shove the concept of the channel/network vessel > > system into the construct of anatomy/physiology. > > > > > > On Mar 27, 2005, at 6:08 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > > > Is it not possible that there might be a possibility that jing luo mai > > > might > > > have a physical basis? I remember the research work conducted by Kim > > > Bonghan, Pierre de Vernajoule and Kwang Sup-Soh. In the first and >last > > > names mentioned, physical structures (conduits) were identified. > > > Bonghan > > > identified liquid contents as well. The second name mentioned did his > > > Ph D > > > with human subjects and measured the movements of a radioactive > > > isotope thru > > > the jing luo mai. I am not expecting an exact one to one with these > > > discoveries but so far it seems that ancient knowledge and research > > > are in > > > sync. > > > When I hear practitioners speak only of TCM/OM as if it is > > > metaphorical only > > > it makes me wonder if we can ever embrace such profound info or if we > > > will > > > reject it due to dogma. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 I also think a physical " fluid " couldn't account for the speed of acupuncture nor the extreme non-locality of many point selections. >>>>>It is interesting to note that we now know that brain synapses can change permanently within seconds to minutes. This has been shown in amputation studies both animal and human. It was known for a long time that areas of the brain can take over when injured, but it is now known that changes can occur within seconds to minutes and these are often hard-wired changes. This could explain some of what we see with acupuncture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2005 Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 Ever shine a light in water? The speed of light is faster than the nervous conduction as far as we know. One research study on the physics site is that light was conducted along this pathway and could be measure at another point on the same pathway. One final thought here is that cells need and operate with various chemicals including hormones (estrogean and adrenalin), which several were found in these tubules in amounts that far exceeded all other internal sources combined as was DNA and RNA. I do not buy into the nervous system theory for this as it does not explain growth and development. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <alonmarcus >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >Re: RE: channel reality >Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:14:45 -0600 > >I also think a physical > " fluid " couldn't account for the speed of acupuncture nor the extreme >non-locality of many point selections. > >>>>>It is interesting to note that we now know that brain synapses can >change permanently within seconds to minutes. This has been shown in >amputation studies both animal and human. It was known for a long time that >areas of the brain can take over when injured, but it is now known that >changes can occur within seconds to minutes and these are often hard-wired >changes. This could explain some of what we see with acupuncture. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2005 Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 One final thought here is that cells need and operate with various chemicals including hormones (estrogean and adrenalin), which several were found in these tubules in amounts that far exceeded all other internal sources combined as was DNA and RNA. I do not buy into the nervous system theory for this as it does not explain growth and development. >>>>Mike, I do not believe there is a single system responsible for any function in our bodies. Nervous or other. In your example most hormones have direct effects on the nervous system as is all other systems. If the question is there a supreme system, well no one knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2005 Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 This is a very uneducated presentation, I am not well read on the channel entity, and sort of take pride in it, wanting to be a self thinker. I take all manifestation to vary, from coarsest to finest, in keeping with the diurnal, binary and closed circuit nature of whatever exists. In the context of the body, if one were to go from coarse to fine: skin s/cut tiss muscle tendon nerve vessels blood tissue cell extracellular fluid qi thought soul substance. To my mind qi is so fine that it requires no more than the directionality of breath created by phasality of a horary and elemental nature. It is, short of a soul experience, the finest energy humans are likely to perceive, and to my mind it does not require conduits, it being it's own container. It has always fascinated me that qi is always unidirectional. Like Time, it moves on, and never returns. Which reminds me of Omar Khayyam and his words with a touch that has survived these coarse centuries: Quatrain: LXXI The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it. From 'The Rubaiyat - By Omar Khayyam' Courtesy: The Internet Classics Archive Read more at http://classics.mit.edu/Khayyam/rubaiyat.html Holmes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2005 Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 Hi Mike, Manaka postulated that underlying the nervous system is another more basic information system. He called this the Signal - X system, X being standard notation for the unknown. He postulated that this signal goes back to more simple forms of life ie the invertebrates that still had a communication system without a nervous system. To activate this system, one must not disturb the 'nosier' nervous system, ie one must not elicit a nervous system response in the patient. He activated this system with polarity type information, such as ion pumping cords, electro-static absorbers, colour, magnets, moxa, different metals in needles utilising their metallic properties, thumb and forefinger (-/+), supplement and draining points, open points based on time and so on. Manaka activated the system by such polarity means, and did not tonify or 'disperse'. I speculate that this might have been because such activity would have engaged the nervous system.... that is just my guess. He made many little experiments; for instance he would find that a magnet on LI ear point would reduce or increase the palpation pressure on LI 4 depending if it were Nth or Sth facing. If he used the left ear for the right LI 4 he would need to reverse the polarity to get the same effect as the right ear on the right LI 4. There are no nervous system connections from the ear to the hand. Manaka also did the same for the Front Mu points and their respective Yuan source points. From this he found differences between Classical Mu points and those that worked in clinic for the meridians. He looked amongst another's to Topology theory, System theory, Chaos theory,and Quantum physics to explain the interactions he found in the body. One of his aims was to develop an explanation between TEAM (Traditional East Asian Medicine) theory and Science. This then was the Signal - X theory, that captured both. His work is fascinating as he was a western trained physician, an Oriental who read many of the Classics in their original text form from many Asian countries, he was an artist, and so on. He spanned East and West, ancient texts and modern physics. And perhaps above all else it had to work in clinic and could not get bogged down in theory. His work is a bridge allowing travel in many directions, especially for a Caucasian like me who is a product of a western science material based culture learning to interact via acupuncture with the body. Best wishes, mike Bowser [naturaldoc1] Wednesday, 30 March 2005 2:05 AM Chinese Medicine Re: RE: channel reality Ever shine a light in water? The speed of light is faster than the nervous conduction as far as we know. One research study on the physics site is that light was conducted along this pathway and could be measure at another point on the same pathway. One final thought here is that cells need and operate with various chemicals including hormones (estrogean and adrenalin), which several were found in these tubules in amounts that far exceeded all other internal sources combined as was DNA and RNA. I do not buy into the nervous system theory for this as it does not explain growth and development. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <alonmarcus >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >Re: RE: channel reality >Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:14:45 -0600 > >I also think a physical > " fluid " couldn't account for the speed of acupuncture nor the extreme >non-locality of many point selections. > >>>>>It is interesting to note that we now know that brain synapses can >change permanently within seconds to minutes. This has been shown in >amputation studies both animal and human. It was known for a long time that >areas of the brain can take over when injured, but it is now known that >changes can occur within seconds to minutes and these are often hard-wired >changes. This could explain some of what we see with acupuncture. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2005 Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 One function of DNA is communication. The system postulated by Manaka might be the same thing that Bonghan and Soh researched. Manaka wrote about a simple experiment that is important and involved the direction of needling. He needled a reactive point in direction that eliminated pain and then reversed this and brought the pain back. Simple forms of life involve DNA. This system of tubules contained large amounts of DNA and RNA that I feel may be the physical basis for jing luo vessels. Bonghan reported that two different types of waves were present. In other words, he found that chemical and bio-electrical properties were present and reported in his book, " On the Kyungrak System " . Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > <> >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: RE: channel reality >Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:59:20 +1000 > >Hi Mike, >Manaka postulated that underlying the nervous system is another more basic >information system. He called this the Signal - X system, X being standard >notation for the unknown. > >He postulated that this signal goes back to more simple forms of life ie >the >invertebrates that still had a communication system without a nervous >system. > >To activate this system, one must not disturb the 'nosier' nervous system, >ie one must not elicit a nervous system response in the patient. He >activated this system with polarity type information, such as ion pumping >cords, electro-static absorbers, colour, magnets, moxa, different metals in >needles utilising their metallic properties, thumb and forefinger (-/+), >supplement and draining points, open points based on time and so on. > >Manaka activated the system by such polarity means, and did not tonify or >'disperse'. I speculate that this might have been because such activity >would have engaged the nervous system.... that is just my guess. > >He made many little experiments; for instance he would find that a magnet >on >LI ear point would reduce or increase the palpation pressure on LI 4 >depending if it were Nth or Sth facing. If he used the left ear for the >right LI 4 he would need to reverse the polarity to get the same effect as >the right ear on the right LI 4. > >There are no nervous system connections from the ear to the hand. > >Manaka also did the same for the Front Mu points and their respective Yuan >source points. From this he found differences between Classical Mu points >and those that worked in clinic for the meridians. > >He looked amongst another's to Topology theory, System theory, Chaos >theory,and Quantum physics to explain the interactions he found in the >body. > >One of his aims was to develop an explanation between TEAM (Traditional >East >Asian Medicine) theory and Science. This then was the Signal - X theory, >that captured both. > >His work is fascinating as he was a western trained physician, an Oriental >who read many of the Classics in their original text form from many Asian >countries, he was an artist, and so on. He spanned East and West, ancient >texts and modern physics. And perhaps above all else it had to work in >clinic and could not get bogged down in theory. His work is a bridge >allowing travel in many directions, especially for a Caucasian like me who >is a product of a western science material based culture learning to >interact via acupuncture with the body. > >Best wishes, > > > > mike Bowser [naturaldoc1] > Wednesday, 30 March 2005 2:05 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: RE: channel reality > > > Ever shine a light in water? The speed of light is faster than the >nervous > conduction as far as we know. One research study on the physics site is > that light was conducted along this pathway and could be measure at >another > point on the same pathway. One final thought here is that cells need >and > operate with various chemicals including hormones (estrogean and >adrenalin), > which several were found in these tubules in amounts that far exceeded >all > other internal sources combined as was DNA and RNA. I do not buy into >the > nervous system theory for this as it does not explain growth and > development. > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > " " <alonmarcus > >Chinese Medicine > ><Chinese Medicine > > >Re: RE: channel reality > >Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:14:45 -0600 > > > >I also think a physical > > " fluid " couldn't account for the speed of acupuncture nor the extreme > >non-locality of many point selections. > > >>>>>It is interesting to note that we now know that brain synapses >can > >change permanently within seconds to minutes. This has been shown in > >amputation studies both animal and human. It was known for a long time >that > >areas of the brain can take over when injured, but it is now known that > >changes can occur within seconds to minutes and these are often >hard-wired > >changes. This could explain some of what we see with acupuncture. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2005 Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 What about the ancient channels are they not a single system? I am not professing that the body only has one system but this discovery seems to explain many reasons as to why and they follow the channel pathways unlike the nerves. I think we need to consider that this might be a physical part of the channel dilemna. Failure to be objective is unscientific and speaks more of dogma than of scholarship. The ancients were much more open minded and inclusive. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <alonmarcus >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >Re: RE: channel reality >Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:16:09 -0600 > >One final thought here is that cells need and >operate with various chemicals including hormones (estrogean and >adrenalin), >which several were found in these tubules in amounts that far exceeded all >other internal sources combined as was DNA and RNA. I do not buy into the >nervous system theory for this as it does not explain growth and >development. > >>>>Mike, I do not believe there is a single system responsible for any >function in our bodies. Nervous or other. In your example most hormones >have direct effects on the nervous system as is all other systems. If the >question is there a supreme system, well no one knows. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2005 Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 There are no nervous system connections from the ear to the hand. >>>You mean there is no simple exon going from the ear to the hand. To say there is no nervous system connection is false Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2005 Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 Mike, your words made me think of a light bulb. The bulb confirms the flow of electricity which we can't see without the bulb. Also TV has waves that are sent through the ether / air / space. I can't see them excite the particles, but I sure can see the TV image. Receivers and senders, yet the bit in the middle is apparently transparent, invisible, but none the less provided the medium (as opposed to a vacuum) through which the information travelled before it was decoded into something meaningful by the receiver. I think I recall that the human tissue is a crystalline structure, and therefore it can act like a crystal. Hmmm weren't the first radio sets crystals? Didn't they use smart crystals to navigate plans by, don't we use crystals in watches? Best wishes, mike Bowser [naturaldoc1] Wednesday, 30 March 2005 8:32 AM Chinese Medicine RE: RE: channel reality One function of DNA is communication. The system postulated by Manaka might be the same thing that Bonghan and Soh researched. Manaka wrote about a simple experiment that is important and involved the direction of needling. He needled a reactive point in direction that eliminated pain and then reversed this and brought the pain back. Simple forms of life involve DNA. This system of tubules contained large amounts of DNA and RNA that I feel may be the physical basis for jing luo vessels. Bonghan reported that two different types of waves were present. In other words, he found that chemical and bio-electrical properties were present and reported in his book, " On the Kyungrak System " . Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > <> >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: RE: channel reality >Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:59:20 +1000 > >Hi Mike, >Manaka postulated that underlying the nervous system is another more basic >information system. He called this the Signal - X system, X being standard >notation for the unknown. > >He postulated that this signal goes back to more simple forms of life ie >the >invertebrates that still had a communication system without a nervous >system. > >To activate this system, one must not disturb the 'nosier' nervous system, >ie one must not elicit a nervous system response in the patient. He >activated this system with polarity type information, such as ion pumping >cords, electro-static absorbers, colour, magnets, moxa, different metals in >needles utilising their metallic properties, thumb and forefinger (-/+), >supplement and draining points, open points based on time and so on. > >Manaka activated the system by such polarity means, and did not tonify or >'disperse'. I speculate that this might have been because such activity >would have engaged the nervous system.... that is just my guess. > >He made many little experiments; for instance he would find that a magnet >on >LI ear point would reduce or increase the palpation pressure on LI 4 >depending if it were Nth or Sth facing. If he used the left ear for the >right LI 4 he would need to reverse the polarity to get the same effect as >the right ear on the right LI 4. > >There are no nervous system connections from the ear to the hand. > >Manaka also did the same for the Front Mu points and their respective Yuan >source points. From this he found differences between Classical Mu points >and those that worked in clinic for the meridians. > >He looked amongst another's to Topology theory, System theory, Chaos >theory,and Quantum physics to explain the interactions he found in the >body. > >One of his aims was to develop an explanation between TEAM (Traditional >East >Asian Medicine) theory and Science. This then was the Signal - X theory, >that captured both. > >His work is fascinating as he was a western trained physician, an Oriental >who read many of the Classics in their original text form from many Asian >countries, he was an artist, and so on. He spanned East and West, ancient >texts and modern physics. And perhaps above all else it had to work in >clinic and could not get bogged down in theory. His work is a bridge >allowing travel in many directions, especially for a Caucasian like me who >is a product of a western science material based culture learning to >interact via acupuncture with the body. > >Best wishes, > > > > mike Bowser [naturaldoc1] > Wednesday, 30 March 2005 2:05 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: RE: channel reality > > > Ever shine a light in water? The speed of light is faster than the >nervous > conduction as far as we know. One research study on the physics site is > that light was conducted along this pathway and could be measure at >another > point on the same pathway. One final thought here is that cells need >and > operate with various chemicals including hormones (estrogean and >adrenalin), > which several were found in these tubules in amounts that far exceeded >all > other internal sources combined as was DNA and RNA. I do not buy into >the > nervous system theory for this as it does not explain growth and > development. > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > " " <alonmarcus > >Chinese Medicine > ><Chinese Medicine > > >Re: RE: channel reality > >Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:14:45 -0600 > > > >I also think a physical > > " fluid " couldn't account for the speed of acupuncture nor the extreme > >non-locality of many point selections. > > >>>>>It is interesting to note that we now know that brain synapses >can > >change permanently within seconds to minutes. This has been shown in > >amputation studies both animal and human. It was known for a long time >that > >areas of the brain can take over when injured, but it is now known that > >changes can occur within seconds to minutes and these are often >hard-wired > >changes. This could explain some of what we see with acupuncture. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 human tissue is a crystalline structure, >>>Some tissues more than others and thus capable of creating static electricity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Sharon, Yes you are right to all of these. I like the analogy of the light yet on some level we still find that electrons and smaller are actually still moving. What keeps them in a certain predictable pattern that allows for light? I think that the concentration of electrons in the wire is similar to the contents within the tubules and once you expose this to light or energy it zooms thru the conduit to where it is needed. The conduits actually perform many functions based on their chemical constituents, frequency and light energy. What I have been researching for my future Ph D thesis and book is this joining together of the many ideas and research results that we know. Unlike some on this forum, I find the Korean, French and Japanese research into this amazing and in line with our own best interests. If we can better describe things with science than we will be more accepted. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > <> >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: RE: channel reality >Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:53:35 +1000 > >Mike, your words made me think of a light bulb. > >The bulb confirms the flow of electricity which we can't see without the >bulb. > >Also TV has waves that are sent through the ether / air / space. I can't >see them excite the particles, but I sure can see the TV image. > >Receivers and senders, yet the bit in the middle is apparently transparent, >invisible, but none the less provided the medium (as opposed to a vacuum) >through which the information travelled before it was decoded into >something >meaningful by the receiver. > >I think I recall that the human tissue is a crystalline structure, and >therefore it can act like a crystal. Hmmm weren't the first radio sets >crystals? Didn't they use smart crystals to navigate plans by, don't we >use >crystals in watches? > >Best wishes, > > > > mike Bowser [naturaldoc1] > Wednesday, 30 March 2005 8:32 AM > Chinese Medicine > RE: RE: channel reality > > > One function of DNA is communication. The system postulated by Manaka >might > be the same thing that Bonghan and Soh researched. Manaka wrote about a > simple experiment that is important and involved the direction of >needling. > He needled a reactive point in direction that eliminated pain and then > reversed this and brought the pain back. > > Simple forms of life involve DNA. This system of tubules contained >large > amounts of DNA and RNA that I feel may be the physical basis for jing >luo > vessels. Bonghan reported that two different types of waves were >present. > In other words, he found that chemical and bio-electrical properties >were > present and reported in his book, " On the Kyungrak System " . > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > <> > >Chinese Medicine > ><Chinese Medicine > > >RE: RE: channel reality > >Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:59:20 +1000 > > > >Hi Mike, > >Manaka postulated that underlying the nervous system is another more >basic > >information system. He called this the Signal - X system, X being >standard > >notation for the unknown. > > > >He postulated that this signal goes back to more simple forms of life >ie > >the > >invertebrates that still had a communication system without a nervous > >system. > > > >To activate this system, one must not disturb the 'nosier' nervous >system, > >ie one must not elicit a nervous system response in the patient. He > >activated this system with polarity type information, such as ion >pumping > >cords, electro-static absorbers, colour, magnets, moxa, different >metals >in > >needles utilising their metallic properties, thumb and forefinger >(-/+), > >supplement and draining points, open points based on time and so on. > > > >Manaka activated the system by such polarity means, and did not tonify >or > >'disperse'. I speculate that this might have been because such >activity > >would have engaged the nervous system.... that is just my guess. > > > >He made many little experiments; for instance he would find that a >magnet > >on > >LI ear point would reduce or increase the palpation pressure on LI 4 > >depending if it were Nth or Sth facing. If he used the left ear for >the > >right LI 4 he would need to reverse the polarity to get the same effect >as > >the right ear on the right LI 4. > > > >There are no nervous system connections from the ear to the hand. > > > >Manaka also did the same for the Front Mu points and their respective >Yuan > >source points. From this he found differences between Classical Mu >points > >and those that worked in clinic for the meridians. > > > >He looked amongst another's to Topology theory, System theory, Chaos > >theory,and Quantum physics to explain the interactions he found in the > >body. > > > >One of his aims was to develop an explanation between TEAM (Traditional > >East > >Asian Medicine) theory and Science. This then was the Signal - X >theory, > >that captured both. > > > >His work is fascinating as he was a western trained physician, an >Oriental > >who read many of the Classics in their original text form from many >Asian > >countries, he was an artist, and so on. He spanned East and West, >ancient > >texts and modern physics. And perhaps above all else it had to work in > >clinic and could not get bogged down in theory. His work is a bridge > >allowing travel in many directions, especially for a Caucasian like me >who > >is a product of a western science material based culture learning to > >interact via acupuncture with the body. > > > >Best wishes, > > > > > > > > mike Bowser [naturaldoc1] > > Wednesday, 30 March 2005 2:05 AM > > Chinese Medicine > > Re: RE: channel reality > > > > > > Ever shine a light in water? The speed of light is faster than the > >nervous > > conduction as far as we know. One research study on the physics >site >is > > that light was conducted along this pathway and could be measure at > >another > > point on the same pathway. One final thought here is that cells >need > >and > > operate with various chemicals including hormones (estrogean and > >adrenalin), > > which several were found in these tubules in amounts that far >exceeded > >all > > other internal sources combined as was DNA and RNA. I do not buy >into > >the > > nervous system theory for this as it does not explain growth and > > development. > > > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > " " <alonmarcus > > >Chinese Medicine > > ><Chinese Medicine > > > >Re: RE: channel reality > > >Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:14:45 -0600 > > > > > >I also think a physical > > > " fluid " couldn't account for the speed of acupuncture nor the >extreme > > >non-locality of many point selections. > > > >>>>>It is interesting to note that we now know that brain >synapses > >can > > >change permanently within seconds to minutes. This has been shown >in > > >amputation studies both animal and human. It was known for a long >time > >that > > >areas of the brain can take over when injured, but it is now known >that > > >changes can occur within seconds to minutes and these are often > >hard-wired > > >changes. This could explain some of what we see with acupuncture. > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Mike: you wrote: " > One function of DNA is communication. " The Yi Jing (Zhou Yi- I Ching - Book of Changes) is the key here. We know that the 64 hexagrams correspond to the amino acids of DNA. If DNA is information, then we can posit some informational relationship between the Zhou Yi and DNA. Research on this aspect remains far from complete. Yang Li, professor of TCM in Beijing, has written at least three books, one entitled, " The Zhou Yi and TCM " (Zhou Yi yu Zhong Yi). She describes Ling Gui Ba Fa (Magic Tortoise Eight Method) as the ultimate in TCM theories. We know that the system of Celestial Stems and Branches is derived from the Zhou Yi. Ling Gui Ba Fa is based on the Eight Trigrams of the Zhou Yi. Ling Gui Ba Fa correlates the flow of Qi through the body over 24- hour periods (or 12 shi-zhen periods) as well as over sixty-day periods, which repeat continuously. Ling Gui Ba Fa not only correlates Qi flow through a few specific acupoints at specific periods, but correlates to the optimum times for the human body. The Zhou Yi is about the flow of Qi in the universe, in our solar system, on our planet, through our bodies. Qi must also carry essential information throughout our bodies. The answer to this puzzle lies less in the workings of western science and more in the ancient knowledge of the Zhou Yi. Somewhere within the Zhou Yi lies the answer to these riddles, and the answer probably concerns DNA as information, and Qi as a carrier of information. Western science may take decades to catch up to what the ancients long ago understood. Regards, Jack The system postulated by Manaka might > be the same thing that Bonghan and Soh researched. Manaka wrote about a > simple experiment that is important and involved the direction of needling. > He needled a reactive point in direction that eliminated pain and then > reversed this and brought the pain back. > > Simple forms of life involve DNA. This system of tubules contained large > amounts of DNA and RNA that I feel may be the physical basis for jing luo > vessels. Bonghan reported that two different types of waves were present. > In other words, he found that chemical and bio-electrical properties were > present and reported in his book, " On the Kyungrak System " . > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > >Chinese Medicine > ><Chinese Medicine > > >RE: RE: channel reality > >Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:59:20 +1000 > > > >Hi Mike, > >Manaka postulated that underlying the nervous system is another more basic > >information system. He called this the Signal - X system, X being standard > >notation for the unknown. > > > >He postulated that this signal goes back to more simple forms of life ie > >the > >invertebrates that still had a communication system without a nervous > >system. > > > >To activate this system, one must not disturb the 'nosier' nervous system, > >ie one must not elicit a nervous system response in the patient. He > >activated this system with polarity type information, such as ion pumping > >cords, electro-static absorbers, colour, magnets, moxa, different metals in > >needles utilising their metallic properties, thumb and forefinger (-/+), > >supplement and draining points, open points based on time and so on. > > > >Manaka activated the system by such polarity means, and did not tonify or > >'disperse'. I speculate that this might have been because such activity > >would have engaged the nervous system.... that is just my guess. > > > >He made many little experiments; for instance he would find that a magnet > >on > >LI ear point would reduce or increase the palpation pressure on LI 4 > >depending if it were Nth or Sth facing. If he used the left ear for the > >right LI 4 he would need to reverse the polarity to get the same effect as > >the right ear on the right LI 4. > > > >There are no nervous system connections from the ear to the hand. > > > >Manaka also did the same for the Front Mu points and their respective Yuan > >source points. From this he found differences between Classical Mu points > >and those that worked in clinic for the meridians. > > > >He looked amongst another's to Topology theory, System theory, Chaos > >theory,and Quantum physics to explain the interactions he found in the > >body. > > > >One of his aims was to develop an explanation between TEAM (Traditional > >East > >Asian Medicine) theory and Science. This then was the Signal - X theory, > >that captured both. > > > >His work is fascinating as he was a western trained physician, an Oriental > >who read many of the Classics in their original text form from many Asian > >countries, he was an artist, and so on. He spanned East and West, ancient > >texts and modern physics. And perhaps above all else it had to work in > >clinic and could not get bogged down in theory. His work is a bridge > >allowing travel in many directions, especially for a Caucasian like me who > >is a product of a western science material based culture learning to > >interact via acupuncture with the body. > > > >Best wishes, > > > > > > > > mike Bowser [naturaldoc1@h...] > > Wednesday, 30 March 2005 2:05 AM > > Chinese Medicine > > Re: RE: channel reality > > > > > > Ever shine a light in water? The speed of light is faster than the > >nervous > > conduction as far as we know. One research study on the physics site is > > that light was conducted along this pathway and could be measure at > >another > > point on the same pathway. One final thought here is that cells need > >and > > operate with various chemicals including hormones (estrogean and > >adrenalin), > > which several were found in these tubules in amounts that far exceeded > >all > > other internal sources combined as was DNA and RNA. I do not buy into > >the > > nervous system theory for this as it does not explain growth and > > development. > > > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > " " <alonmarcus@w...> > > >Chinese Medicine > > ><Chinese Medicine > > > >Re: RE: channel reality > > >Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:14:45 -0600 > > > > > >I also think a physical > > > " fluid " couldn't account for the speed of acupuncture nor the extreme > > >non-locality of many point selections. > > > >>>>>It is interesting to note that we now know that brain synapses > >can > > >change permanently within seconds to minutes. This has been shown in > > >amputation studies both animal and human. It was known for a long time > >that > > >areas of the brain can take over when injured, but it is now known that > > >changes can occur within seconds to minutes and these are often > >hard-wired > > >changes. This could explain some of what we see with acupuncture. > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Somewhere within the Zhou Yi lies the answer to these riddles, and the answer probably concerns DNA as information, >>>>That is a statment of faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 In a message dated 3/29/2005 10:03:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: I think that the concentration of electrons in the wire is similar to the contents within the tubules and once you expose this to light or energy it zooms thru the conduit to where it is needed. What most people don't realize is that electrons don't actually go flying down the wire. There is very little " electron drift " . When energized, electrons shift layer and then back again. That is where the energy comes from. FYI, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 My point exactly only I did not say it so well. The focus of my point was on the light entering and its usage of the fluid as a conductor. Frequency moves well thru fluids just as electricity moves thru wires. Sorry for the confusion. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Musiclear >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: RE: channel reality >Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:18:38 EST > >In a message dated 3/29/2005 10:03:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, >naturaldoc1 writes: >I think that the concentration of electrons in the wire is similar >to the contents within the tubules and once you expose this to light or >energy it zooms thru the conduit to where it is needed. > > > What most people don't realize is that electrons don't actually go >flying >down the wire. There is very little " electron drift " . > > When energized, electrons shift layer and then back again. That is >where >the energy comes from. > > FYI, > > Chris > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 One would have to question any connections from ear to hand. In my medical anatomy course we have not ID any such direct connection. Some will not doubt argue that there must be an indirect one and I would consider that argument. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <alonmarcus >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >Re: RE: channel reality >Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:38:29 -0600 > > >There are no nervous system connections from the ear to the hand. > >>>You mean there is no simple exon going from the ear to the hand. To say >there is no nervous system connection is false > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Jack, Good points especially the DNA connection to the Zhou Yi. I would like to hear more about this. As for the physicality of things, I am putting together physical representations into a book of what many of us know but fail to recognize. We live on a physical plane yet when it comes to ID of things we run for the ancient classics yet do not see what they are discussing is right in front of our faces. Modern living might have another word for it. It has not been easy as there is no one to one relationship yet great progress has been made as to physical structures and functions that mimic what we know in the classics as qi or even possibly jing. This type of work is needed as we are running into a disturbing trend of practitioners that believe that the blood vessels and nerves are what the classics thought of as jing luo. This movement has now taken shape as an accredidation body with an agenda that is pushing this as well. Failure to act, will lead to replacement. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " mojavecowboy " <mojavecowboy >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: RE: channel reality >Wed, 30 Mar 2005 03:28:56 -0000 > > >Mike: > >you wrote: " > One function of DNA is communication. " > >The Yi Jing (Zhou Yi- I Ching - Book of Changes) is the key here. We >know that the 64 hexagrams correspond to the amino acids of DNA. If >DNA is information, then we can posit some informational relationship >between the Zhou Yi and DNA. Research on this aspect remains far from >complete. > >Yang Li, professor of TCM in Beijing, has written at least three >books, one entitled, " The Zhou Yi and TCM " (Zhou Yi yu Zhong Yi). She >describes Ling Gui Ba Fa (Magic Tortoise Eight Method) as the >ultimate in TCM theories. > >We know that the system of Celestial Stems and Branches is derived >from the Zhou Yi. Ling Gui Ba Fa is based on the Eight Trigrams of >the Zhou Yi. > >Ling Gui Ba Fa correlates the flow of Qi through the body over 24- >hour periods (or 12 shi-zhen periods) as well as over sixty-day >periods, which repeat continuously. Ling Gui Ba Fa not only >correlates Qi flow through a few specific acupoints at specific >periods, but correlates to the optimum times for the human body. > >The Zhou Yi is about the flow of Qi in the universe, in our solar >system, on our planet, through our bodies. Qi must also carry >essential information throughout our bodies. The answer to this >puzzle lies less in the workings of western science and more in the >ancient knowledge of the Zhou Yi. > >Somewhere within the Zhou Yi lies the answer to these riddles, and >the answer probably concerns DNA as information, and Qi as a carrier >of information. Western science may take decades to catch up to what >the ancients long ago understood. > >Regards, Jack > >The system postulated by Manaka might > > be the same thing that Bonghan and Soh researched. Manaka wrote >about a > > simple experiment that is important and involved the direction of >needling. > > He needled a reactive point in direction that eliminated pain and >then > > reversed this and brought the pain back. > > > > Simple forms of life involve DNA. This system of tubules contained >large > > amounts of DNA and RNA that I feel may be the physical basis for >jing luo > > vessels. Bonghan reported that two different types of waves were >present. > > In other words, he found that chemical and bio-electrical >properties were > > present and reported in his book, " On the Kyungrak System " . > > > > > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > > > >Chinese Medicine > > ><Chinese Medicine > > > >RE: RE: channel reality > > >Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:59:20 +1000 > > > > > >Hi Mike, > > >Manaka postulated that underlying the nervous system is another >more basic > > >information system. He called this the Signal - X system, X being >standard > > >notation for the unknown. > > > > > >He postulated that this signal goes back to more simple forms of >life ie > > >the > > >invertebrates that still had a communication system without a >nervous > > >system. > > > > > >To activate this system, one must not disturb the 'nosier' nervous >system, > > >ie one must not elicit a nervous system response in the patient. >He > > >activated this system with polarity type information, such as ion >pumping > > >cords, electro-static absorbers, colour, magnets, moxa, different >metals in > > >needles utilising their metallic properties, thumb and forefinger >(-/+), > > >supplement and draining points, open points based on time and so >on. > > > > > >Manaka activated the system by such polarity means, and did not >tonify or > > >'disperse'. I speculate that this might have been because such >activity > > >would have engaged the nervous system.... that is just my guess. > > > > > >He made many little experiments; for instance he would find that a >magnet > > >on > > >LI ear point would reduce or increase the palpation pressure on LI >4 > > >depending if it were Nth or Sth facing. If he used the left ear >for the > > >right LI 4 he would need to reverse the polarity to get the same >effect as > > >the right ear on the right LI 4. > > > > > >There are no nervous system connections from the ear to the hand. > > > > > >Manaka also did the same for the Front Mu points and their >respective Yuan > > >source points. From this he found differences between Classical >Mu points > > >and those that worked in clinic for the meridians. > > > > > >He looked amongst another's to Topology theory, System theory, >Chaos > > >theory,and Quantum physics to explain the interactions he found in >the > > >body. > > > > > >One of his aims was to develop an explanation between TEAM >(Traditional > > >East > > >Asian Medicine) theory and Science. This then was the Signal - X >theory, > > >that captured both. > > > > > >His work is fascinating as he was a western trained physician, an >Oriental > > >who read many of the Classics in their original text form from >many Asian > > >countries, he was an artist, and so on. He spanned East and >West, ancient > > >texts and modern physics. And perhaps above all else it had to >work in > > >clinic and could not get bogged down in theory. His work is a >bridge > > >allowing travel in many directions, especially for a Caucasian >like me who > > >is a product of a western science material based culture learning >to > > >interact via acupuncture with the body. > > > > > >Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > > > mike Bowser [naturaldoc1@h...] > > > Wednesday, 30 March 2005 2:05 AM > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Re: RE: channel reality > > > > > > > > > Ever shine a light in water? The speed of light is faster than >the > > >nervous > > > conduction as far as we know. One research study on the >physics site is > > > that light was conducted along this pathway and could be >measure at > > >another > > > point on the same pathway. One final thought here is that >cells need > > >and > > > operate with various chemicals including hormones (estrogean and > > >adrenalin), > > > which several were found in these tubules in amounts that far >exceeded > > >all > > > other internal sources combined as was DNA and RNA. I do not >buy into > > >the > > > nervous system theory for this as it does not explain growth and > > > development. > > > > > > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > > > > > " " <alonmarcus@w...> > > > >Chinese Medicine > > > ><Chinese Medicine > > > > >Re: RE: channel reality > > > >Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:14:45 -0600 > > > > > > > >I also think a physical > > > > " fluid " couldn't account for the speed of acupuncture nor the >extreme > > > >non-locality of many point selections. > > > > >>>>>It is interesting to note that we now know that brain >synapses > > >can > > > >change permanently within seconds to minutes. This has been >shown in > > > >amputation studies both animal and human. It was known for a >long time > > >that > > > >areas of the brain can take over when injured, but it is now >known that > > > >changes can occur within seconds to minutes and these are often > > >hard-wired > > > >changes. This could explain some of what we see with >acupuncture. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > when it comes to ID of > things we run for the ancient classics really? from what i've seen most practitioners don't consult the classics for anything. rh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Musiclear wrote: > In a message dated 3/29/2005 10:03:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, > naturaldoc1 writes: > I think that the concentration of electrons in the wire is similar > to the contents within the tubules and once you expose this to light or > energy it zooms thru the conduit to where it is needed. > > > What most people don't realize is that electrons don't actually go flying > down the wire. There is very little " electron drift " . > > When energized, electrons shift layer and then back again. That is where > the energy comes from. > Hi Chris! There might be a difference between AC and DC. DC doesn't work as well on long circuits. Regards. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Robert, I was speaking of the constant usage of qi or jing as opposed to any possible modern substance. In other words, I was talking about classical terminology as opposed to new discovery or possibilities of. I hope this clarification works better. I fully support more knowedge of the classics as well as biological research. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " kampo36 " <kampo36 >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: RE: channel reality >Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:56:47 -0000 > > >Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " ><naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > > when it comes to ID of > > things we run for the ancient classics > >really? from what i've seen most practitioners don't consult the classics >for anything. > >rh > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 I suspect it is a hologram principle. mike Bowser [naturaldoc1] Wednesday, 30 March 2005 10:47 PM Chinese Medicine Re: RE: channel reality One would have to question any connections from ear to hand. In my medical anatomy course we have not ID any such direct connection. Some will not doubt argue that there must be an indirect one and I would consider that argument. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <alonmarcus >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >Re: RE: channel reality >Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:38:29 -0600 > > >There are no nervous system connections from the ear to the hand. > >>>You mean there is no simple exon going from the ear to the hand. To say >there is no nervous system connection is false > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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