[pa-l] Biophotonics in the infrared spectral range reveal acupuncture meridian structure of the body

March 13, 2005

Hi Phil,

I've read this paper and can see that it was accepted for " peer review " in the

Journal of Alternative Complementary Medicine in Feb. of 2005. As you've heard

me say many times in recent years, if you put something (anything) through the

mill of Western science, what comes out of the hopper is Western science.

Western science stands to grow from the experiments listed below ... if it had

the courage and flexibility to do so. Chinese medicine stands to be

" Westernized " , and thus greatly reduced by such studies. If successfully

accepted within the Western scientific community, such studies as these will

cause CM to be " simply explained " by various scientific mechanisms. What, of

course, would be more interesting would be if Western science managed to " grow "

from such things. Perhaps new channels and regulatory mechanisms of homeostasis

could be posited. For now I'll avoid cynicism and hope for the best.

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

-

J Acupuncture ;

traditional_Chinese_Medicine

Cc: pa-l ; pVA-L

Saturday, March 12, 2005 2:28 PM

[pa-l] Biophotonics in the infrared spectral range reveal acupuncture

meridian structure of the body

Hi All,

See abstract, below.

Is this another hyped up half-truth? Have any of you seen the full text?

Did they claim to see all 14 Channels in the expected anatomical

locations?

Phil

Schlebusch KP, Maric-Oehler W, Popp FA. Biophotonics in the infrared

spectral range reveal acupuncture meridian structure of the body. J

Altern Complement Med. 2005 Feb;11(1):171-3. International Institute

of Biophysics, Landesstiftung Hombroich, Neuss, Germany. This study

shows, for the first time, evidence of the existence of the acupuncture

meridian structure in the human body. After moxibustion (or similar light

stimulation) of the body in the 3-5 microm range, " light channels " appear

on the body, which appear to be identical to what are known as

meridians in all textbooks of Traditional . These

findings appear not only to confirm the existence of acupuncture

meridians, but they also open a new window on understanding the

energy transfer dynamics of the human body. Furthermore, it is likely

that living matter is not in the ground state, but permanently

electronically excited. PMID: 15750378 [PubMed - in process]

Best regards,

Tel: (H): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

Ireland.

Tel: (W): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

" Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt man doing it " -

Chinese Proverb

March 13, 2005

Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

> Hi Phil,

>

> I've read this paper and can see that it was accepted for " peer

> review " in the Journal of Alternative Complementary Medicine in Feb.

> of 2005. As you've heard me say many times in recent years, if you

> put something (anything) through the mill of Western science, what

> comes out of the hopper is Western science. Western science stands

> to grow from the experiments listed below ... if it had the courage

> and flexibility to do so. Chinese medicine stands to be

> " Westernized " , and thus greatly reduced by such studies. If

> successfully accepted within the Western scientific community, such

> studies as these will cause CM to be " simply explained " by various

> scientific mechanisms. What, of course, would be more interesting

> would be if Western science managed to " grow " from such things.

> Perhaps new channels and regulatory mechanisms of homeostasis could

> be posited. For now I'll avoid cynicism and hope for the best.

>

> Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen

Hi Emmanuel!

Yes, by all means avoid cynicism. I think that we have to

emphasize our strengths, which is in art and history rather than

science. I recently posted an article on my web site to that effect.

<http://pete-theisen.com/index.php?option=com_content & task=view & id=93 & Itemid=43>

Sheesh, what a URL! Watch out it doesn't wrap on you. If it does, try my

home page <http://pete-theisen.com/>, click " research " on the menu, then

articles. Right now it is the only article.

Regards,

Pete

March 13, 2005

Thank you Emmanuel.

There is a fundamentally different approach to health of Chinese

medicine and Western medicine that runs deeper than just the medicine.

It goes down to the very assumptions about the nature of reality. Most

in Western empirical science have blinders about their assumptions, and

few scientists have the courage to acknowledge or even question that the

foundational concepts that science is based on. These assumptions are

merely convenient philosophical concepts and not based on reality.

The whole concept of " cause and effect " for example is a legacy from

Aristotle that the Chinese were spared. The traditional Chinese saw

phenomenon as a web of interrelationship where the whole universe has to

conspire to bring about any phenomenon. Disease is never seen as from a

single cause, but from a multitude of events occurring together. From

these assumptions in Western medicine, drugs and therapies are designed

and manufactured that can have devastatingly short sighted effects.

Chinese medicine tends to work much slower but deeper because of it's

inherently extremely conservative nature trying to balance and work with

the whole web of interrelationship. For heroic life saving medicine,

working from the Western perspective is clearly a greater advantage than

from the Chinese. But for many chronic diseases the Western perspective

becomes a liability to effective treatment. Chinese medicine is also

based on similarly " unreal " assumptions, but just like those in Western

science, they are convenient and internally consistent.

The synthesis of Western and Chinese medicine will have to change both

if it is to occur at all. The spirit of Chinese medicine can not be

lost in the translation or the effectiveness will be lost too.

Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht.

Oasis Acupuncture

http://www.oasisacupuncture.com

8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte

Suite D-35

Scottsdale, AZ 85258

Phone: (480) 991-3650

Fax: (480) 247-4472

Emmanuel Segmen [susegmen]

Saturday, March 12, 2005 6:32 PM

; pa-l ;

traditional_Chinese_Medicine

Cc: pa-l ; pVA-L

Re: [pa-l] Biophotonics in the infrared spectral range

reveal acupuncture meridian structure of the body

Hi Phil,

I've read this paper and can see that it was accepted for " peer review "

in the Journal of Alternative Complementary Medicine in Feb. of 2005.

As you've heard me say many times in recent years, if you put something

(anything) through the mill of Western science, what comes out of the

hopper is Western science. Western science stands to grow from the

experiments listed below ... if it had the courage and flexibility to do

so. Chinese medicine stands to be " Westernized " , and thus greatly

reduced by such studies. If successfully accepted within the Western

scientific community, such studies as these will cause CM to be " simply

explained " by various scientific mechanisms. What, of course, would be

more interesting would be if Western science managed to " grow " from such

things. Perhaps new channels and regulatory mechanisms of homeostasis

could be posited. For now I'll avoid cynicism and hope for the best.

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

-

J Acupuncture ;

traditional_Chinese_Medicine

Cc: pa-l ; pVA-L

Saturday, March 12, 2005 2:28 PM

[pa-l] Biophotonics in the infrared spectral range reveal

acupuncture meridian structure of the body

Hi All,

See abstract, below.

Is this another hyped up half-truth? Have any of you seen the full

text?

Did they claim to see all 14 Channels in the expected anatomical

locations?

Phil

Schlebusch KP, Maric-Oehler W, Popp FA. Biophotonics in the infrared

spectral range reveal acupuncture meridian structure of the body. J

Altern Complement Med. 2005 Feb;11(1):171-3. International Institute

of Biophysics, Landesstiftung Hombroich, Neuss, Germany. This study

shows, for the first time, evidence of the existence of the

acupuncture

meridian structure in the human body. After moxibustion (or similar

light

stimulation) of the body in the 3-5 microm range, " light channels "

appear

on the body, which appear to be identical to what are known as

meridians in all textbooks of Traditional . These

findings appear not only to confirm the existence of acupuncture

meridians, but they also open a new window on understanding the

energy transfer dynamics of the human body. Furthermore, it is likely

that living matter is not in the ground state, but permanently

electronically excited. PMID: 15750378 [PubMed - in process]

Best regards,

Tel: (H): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

Ireland.

Tel: (W): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

" Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt man doing it " -

Chinese Proverb

March 13, 2005

I couldn't agree more. The present so-called 'integration' completely

ignores the gifts and strengths of Chinese medicine. When one paradigm

is predominant, you have one partner dominating the other one.

On Mar 13, 2005, at 6:49 AM, Christopher Vedeler, L.Ac. wrote:

> The synthesis of Western and Chinese medicine will have to change both

> if it is to occur at all. The spirit of Chinese medicine can not be

> lost in the translation or the effectiveness will be lost too.

March 13, 2005

Integration is coming whether you like it or not. There will then be three

kinds of medicine, TCM, allopathic and the two combined. Of course, not

everyone has to practice in the integrated form, but if you want to have

your say and try and steer it's future the way you want it, your gonna have

to join in and play the game. So I suggest everyone jumps in, the more the

better.

Kind regards

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

07786198900

attiliodalberto

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

[zrosenbe]

13 March 2005 19:12

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: [pa-l] Biophotonics in the infrared spectral range

reveal acupuncture meridian structure of the body

I couldn't agree more. The present so-called 'integration' completely

ignores the gifts and strengths of Chinese medicine. When one paradigm

is predominant, you have one partner dominating the other one.

On Mar 13, 2005, at 6:49 AM, Christopher Vedeler, L.Ac. wrote:

> The synthesis of Western and Chinese medicine will have to change both

> if it is to occur at all. The spirit of Chinese medicine can not be

> lost in the translation or the effectiveness will be lost too.

http://babel.altavista.com/

and adjust

accordingly.

March 13, 2005

I don't agree. I think integration is a fashion, not a reality. The

economics and powers-that-be will not accept Chinese medicine on its

own terms. You are ignoring the power game. We have no power, except

to create and strengthen our own structure.

No one has yet defined integration to my own satisfaction. We don't

have a clear enough grasp of what Chinese medicine is to be able to

integrate it.

On Mar 13, 2005, at 11:27 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

> Integration is coming whether you like it or not. There will then be

> three

> kinds of medicine, TCM, allopathic and the two combined. Of course, not

> everyone has to practice in the integrated form, but if you want to

> have

> your say and try and steer it's future the way you want it, your gonna

> have

> to join in and play the game. So I suggest everyone jumps in, the more

> the

> better.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Attilio D'Alberto

March 13, 2005

Recently, I purchased the book Consciousness & Healing, it includes a nice

DVD with Integral Approaches to Mind-Body Medicine. I think the valuable

theme to get out of this is that the term integrative should be INTEGRAL, in

that holistic or whole body-mind approach like the foundation of TCM is

integral to our successes with healing.Western Medicine for some cases will

have it's place but the Big Picture is finally being recognized in that the

approach to healing needs to be holistic and TCM is the only real holistic

medicine out there.Others, like Native American Healing and even back woods

Kentucky Healers, all countries have an intrinsic community healing method

available within familys and cultures,it is just now being accepted that

without the wholeness, there is no true healing and it will be integral to

the patient that medicine in all forms is practiced this way.TCM is the King

Herb in the Inegral healing formula. Sincerely,P.Jordan

> " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

>RE: Re: [pa-l] Biophotonics in the infrared spectral range

>reveal acupuncture meridian structure of the body

>Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:27:30 -0000

>

>Integration is coming whether you like it or not. There will then be three

>kinds of medicine, TCM, allopathic and the two combined. Of course, not

>everyone has to practice in the integrated form, but if you want to have

>your say and try and steer it's future the way you want it, your gonna have

>to join in and play the game. So I suggest everyone jumps in, the more the

>better.

>

>Kind regards

>

>Attilio D'Alberto

>Doctor of (Beijing, China)

>BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

>07786198900

>attiliodalberto

> <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

>

> [zrosenbe]

>13 March 2005 19:12

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Re: [pa-l] Biophotonics in the infrared spectral range

>reveal acupuncture meridian structure of the body

>

>I couldn't agree more. The present so-called 'integration' completely

>ignores the gifts and strengths of Chinese medicine. When one paradigm

>is predominant, you have one partner dominating the other one.

>

>On Mar 13, 2005, at 6:49 AM, Christopher Vedeler, L.Ac. wrote:

>

> > The synthesis of Western and Chinese medicine will have to change both

> > if it is to occur at all. The spirit of Chinese medicine can not be

> > lost in the translation or the effectiveness will be lost too.

>

>http://babel.altavista.com/

>

> and adjust

>accordingly.

>

>Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

>requires prior permission from the author.

>

>If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics,

>

March 13, 2005

I really wish it was a fashion, but it sure-as-hell isn't. CM will not be

excepted on its own terms in the short term, maybe in the long term it will,

I don't know. I can't predict the future but the future of WM to me, doesn't

look good. The constant pro-positive propaganda seen in the media of how 'WM

is on the brink of' is wearing thin when nothing comes from it and there's

no benefit passed onto the public.

If you don't voice your concerns within the WM game then of course you have

no power. If you do, then you have some. As CM is accepted more into primary

healthcare, your voice and power will grow. Letting medical acupuncturists

and MDs dictate the future of CM is very dangerous. We need to battle not

only our own education within our medical field but theirs aswell. Ignoring

the established WM isn't gonna get us anywhere, except isolated.

I agree we don't understand CM, we may never will. But if we wait until we

do before we move forward, then we won't have much of a medicine to practice

with.

Kind regards

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

07786198900

attiliodalberto

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

[zrosenbe]

13 March 2005 19:51

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: [pa-l] Biophotonics in the infrared spectral range

reveal acupuncture meridian structure of the body

I don't agree. I think integration is a fashion, not a reality. The

economics and powers-that-be will not accept Chinese medicine on its

own terms. You are ignoring the power game. We have no power, except

to create and strengthen our own structure.

No one has yet defined integration to my own satisfaction. We don't

have a clear enough grasp of what Chinese medicine is to be able to

integrate it.

On Mar 13, 2005, at 11:27 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

> Integration is coming whether you like it or not. There will then be

> three

> kinds of medicine, TCM, allopathic and the two combined. Of course, not

> everyone has to practice in the integrated form, but if you want to

> have

> your say and try and steer it's future the way you want it, your gonna

> have

> to join in and play the game. So I suggest everyone jumps in, the more

> the

> better.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Attilio D'Alberto

http://babel.altavista.com/

and adjust

accordingly.

March 13, 2005

Attilio,

I was saying that the term 'integrative medicine' is a fashion,

because no one seems to know exactly what it is, except as a vague idea

of blending everything 'alternative' 'into' Western medicine. However,

when you blend in 5% (CM) into 95% (WM), there is not much left of the

original flavoring. This is why I think we need to retain our

uniqueness. We need to start thinking about developing our own

structures, hospitals, insurances if we really want to prosper. If

acupuncturists want to work within the medical system, that is fine

with me. However, let's also strengthen our own foundations and field

as well. It doesn't have to be either or, I just don't want to see our

field rush mindlessly in one direction without really knowing which way

we are going.

On Mar 13, 2005, at 1:50 PM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

> I really wish it was a fashion, but it sure-as-hell isn't. CM will not

> be

> excepted on its own terms in the short term, maybe in the long term it

> will,

> I don't know. I can't predict the future but the future of WM to me,

> doesn't

> look good. The constant pro-positive propaganda seen in the media of

> how 'WM

> is on the brink of' is wearing thin when nothing comes from it and

> there's

> no benefit passed onto the public.

>

March 13, 2005

Integration is coming whether you like it or not. There will then be three

kinds of medicine, TCM, allopathic and the two combined. Of course, not

everyone has to practice in the integrated form, but if you want to have

your say and try and steer it's future the way you want it, your gonna have

to join in and play the game. So I suggest everyone jumps in, the more the

better.Kind regardsAttilio D'Alberto

MM: maybe then it will be covered by insurance.

Mercurius Trismegistus

March 14, 2005

Isn't there already integration of western medicine into TCM? I can open up

several commonly used texts and see western medical symtoms and diseases.

To me that is not the ancient classical medicine of which many speak. Due

to the educational systems we are forcing our graduates to learn both.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " " <zrosenbe

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Re: [pa-l] Biophotonics in the infrared spectral range

>reveal acupuncture meridian structure of the body

>Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:51:10 -0800

>

>I don't agree. I think integration is a fashion, not a reality. The

>economics and powers-that-be will not accept Chinese medicine on its

>own terms. You are ignoring the power game. We have no power, except

>to create and strengthen our own structure.

>

>No one has yet defined integration to my own satisfaction. We don't

>have a clear enough grasp of what Chinese medicine is to be able to

>integrate it.

>

>On Mar 13, 2005, at 11:27 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

>

> > Integration is coming whether you like it or not. There will then be

> > three

> > kinds of medicine, TCM, allopathic and the two combined. Of course, not

> > everyone has to practice in the integrated form, but if you want to

> > have

> > your say and try and steer it's future the way you want it, your gonna

> > have

> > to join in and play the game. So I suggest everyone jumps in, the more

> > the

> > better.

> >

> > Kind regards

> >

> > Attilio D'Alberto

>

March 14, 2005

Yes, there certainly is integration in that sense. I have no problem

with anything be offered in educational programs, as long as it is put

into context with the classical medicine. This, unfortunately, is not

being done as much as it should be.

On Mar 13, 2005, at 9:11 PM, mike Bowser wrote:

> Isn't there already integration of western medicine into TCM? I can

> open up

> several commonly used texts and see western medical symtoms and

> diseases.

> To me that is not the ancient classical medicine of which many speak.

> Due

> to the educational systems we are forcing our graduates to learn both.

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

March 14, 2005

That's not how I would define the word 'fashion', but anyway. How much of

the 'original flavouring' of CM do you think there is left? Was there

anything like original CM in the first place? Hasn't CM over the past

thousands of years, integrated, adapted and evolved with other ideas and

beliefs from various cultures, religions and countries to be what is it

today?

I believe in strengthening our foundations, our education, regulation, raw

materials, literature, etc. But not to the detrimental effect that we stop

watching and trying to act within the WM field. Of course we should not rush

mindlessly into new areas without a lack of a credible foundation, but to

let MDs and medical acupuncturists dictate our own field within there's is a

terrible pity and will cause us alot of harm.

Some of us have strengthens in forging a way through WM, whilst others have

strengthens in building a better foundation for us all. Let's not bicker as

to what needs to be done. What's being done is being done and done for us

all.

What I would say, is to all those that just sit there and watch and do

nothing and let it all just slip pass them and then complain, without taking

action to either strengthen our foundations or direct us into the WM field.

I say to those to get up off your arse and get a life!

Kind regards

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

07786198900

attiliodalberto

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

[zrosenbe]

13 March 2005 22:19