Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 hi there everyone. I need some direction with a new patient. About 16 years ago whilst pregnant her mother was murdered and she aborted. Since which she was put on various drugs by the pschiatrist. She now has problems with memory, but gets scared in lifts with strangers, etc. and gets anxious very easily. Any ideas on the surface? Thanks very much for all your suggestions Best wishes Sharon E. Nilsson - Spain Centro Europeo de Medicina Holística S.L. Lic. Chiropractor Johan E. Nilsson Sharon E. Nilsson Lic. Ac. c/Herrerías 20, Edificio Albéniz II 03580 Alfaz del Pi, Alicante, Spain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Tongue will tell. Fissures? Central, deep? Elsewhere on tongue? Look at ear lobes for the HT Emotions crease. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Hii Sharon, & All, Sharon wrote: > I need some direction with a new patient. About 16 years ago > whilst pregnant her mother was murdered and she aborted. Since > which she was put on various drugs by the pschiatrist. She now > has problems with memory, but gets scared in lifts with strangers, > etc. and gets anxious very easily. Any ideas on the surface? > Sharon E. Nilsson - Spain Sudden shock / bereavement / grief / fear: ?KI Xu with ?LU Xu This woman needs expert counselling + much understanding and love. Clearly, the psychiatrist has not succeeded. Suggest changing to a different shrink + a psychotherapist trained in grief / shock counselling and Jungian methods. Add weekly AP for 1 month at: Spirit Points BL42-Pohu + BL52-Zhishi to boost Po and Zhi LU01 + GB25 [Mu Alarm Pts for LU and KI) LU09 + KI07 (Mother Pts to Tonify LU and KI) Homeopathic Arnica (C30), one single dose only for the shock / bereavement. Warn that there may be flashbacks and sudden panic for some days afterwards. After 1 week, add Nux vomica + Aconite (C6), one of each, bid, for 1 month for fear Reassess in 1 month Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 You might consider different areas of treatment. One I have found to be very effective is EFT and the different styles that are similar to it. http://www.emofree.com/ CENTRO EUROPEO DE MEDICINA H CENTRO EUROPEO DE MEDICINA HOLISTICA <johan.nilsson wrote: hi there everyone. I need some direction with a new patient. About 16 years ago whilst pregnant her mother was murdered and she aborted. Since which she was put on various drugs by the pschiatrist. She now has problems with memory, but gets scared in lifts with strangers, etc. and gets anxious very easily. Any ideas on the surface? Thanks very much for all your suggestions Best wishes Sharon E. Nilsson - Spain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 I agree she needs good counseling from someone. An acupuncture TX I use from the Worsley school is called the internal demons treatment: Master point 1/4 inch below CV 15, ST 25, ST32, ST41, insert top to botton, straight in, when all inserted go back and turn counterclockwise. Leave in for 20 mins or more if needed. I would leave the room, open window if possible or light candle. You should be near by if needed. This is a great tx for getting patients released of old stuff and " back " to themselves. It might be needed more than once. I ususally only do once, followed by Bach Shu agressive energy tx, yin only, release for 20 mins. I do these in 2 separate txs. You can repeat the internal demons tx if someone has something major come up later. I always follow it with the agressive energy tx, back shu, yin only, even (no turning) 20 mins or more until reddness clears on back. This is the Worsley protocol - internal demons, then agressvie energy tx always follows. Good Luck CENTRO EUROPEO DE MEDICINA H CENTRO EUROPEO DE MEDICINA HOLISTICA wrote: > > hi there everyone. I need some direction with a new patient. About > 16 years ago whilst pregnant her mother was murdered and she aborted. > Since which she was put on various drugs by the pschiatrist. She now > has problems with memory, but gets scared in lifts with strangers, > etc. and gets anxious very easily. Any ideas on the surface? > > Thanks very much for all your suggestions > > Best wishes > > Sharon E. Nilsson - Spain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 Do you mind sharing what the Back Shu aggressive energy tx'nt, Yin only is? I gather you are using the Back Shu of the Yin Organs only... can you explain a bit more. What is aggressive if its even? Thanks. David Tarlo, L.Ac. d1tarlo --- Anne Crowley <blazing.valley wrote: > > I agree she needs good counseling from someone. An > acupuncture TX I use > from the Worsley school is called the internal > demons treatment: Master > point 1/4 inch below CV 15, ST 25, ST32, ST41, > insert top to botton, > straight in, when all inserted go back and turn > counterclockwise. Leave > in for 20 mins or more if needed. I would leave the > room, open window > if possible or light candle. You should be near by > if needed. This is > a great tx for getting patients released of old > stuff and " back " to > themselves. It might be needed more than once. I > ususally only do > once, followed by Bach Shu agressive energy tx, yin > only, release for 20 > mins. I do these in 2 separate txs. You can repeat > the internal demons > tx if someone has something major come up later. I > always follow it > with the agressive energy tx, back shu, yin only, > even (no turning) 20 > mins or more until reddness clears on back. This is > the Worsley > protocol - internal demons, then agressvie energy tx > always follows. > > Good Luck > > CENTRO EUROPEO DE MEDICINA H CENTRO EUROPEO DE > MEDICINA HOLISTICA wrote: > > > > > hi there everyone. I need some direction with a > new patient. About > > 16 years ago whilst pregnant her mother was > murdered and she aborted. > > Since which she was put on various drugs by the > pschiatrist. She now > > has problems with memory, but gets scared in lifts > with strangers, > > etc. and gets anxious very easily. Any ideas on > the surface? > > > > Thanks very much for all your suggestions > > > > Best wishes > > > > Sharon E. Nilsson - Spain > > > > Read only the mail you want - Mail SpamGuard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 David: This is the aggressive energy tx. It is a stand alone tx - don't mix other points with it until needles are out. BL13, BL14, BL15, BL 18, BL 20, BL23. IMPORTANT: Insert BL15 after all other needles are inserted. Insert needles right to left, top to bottom into all points, shallow insertion, one fen, needle hangs down without touching skin (shouldn't touch skin (too shallow) or stick straight out (in too deep). Redness, erythema, comes up around the point when there is aggressive energy, so you should insert a test needle in each jiao to compare the red. AE is redder and last longer than test needle. When the redness on points clears, AE is cleared. You can't always get it to clear in one tx - protocol is to leave them in for 20 min. (Sometimes there is AE and you see no redness, check for heat coming out by holding your hand over one jaio at a time. And sometimes you do it and you realize maybe the patient didn't have it - no harm is done and it probably helped anyway. Aggressive energy is a block that occurs when there are toxins in the body from toxic energy of some kind, this can be emotional or physical. For instance, I would do this after a person has had any kind of anethesia, probably need to do it more than once. I do it as a matter of course when people first start. If my exisiting patients have any kind of chaotic energy come up I do it again. Sometimes I sense it, and then question into it. Also I do it to clear heat. The word aggressive is not how you manipulate the needles but rather what you are treating. I am sure there are TCM tx's that get to this in one way or another. This is a Worsley 5E protocol. Hope this helps, Anne David Tarlo wrote: > > Do you mind sharing what the Back Shu aggressive > energy tx'nt, Yin only is? I gather you are using the > Back Shu of the Yin Organs only... can you explain a > bit more. What is aggressive if its even? Thanks. > David Tarlo, L.Ac. > d1tarlo > > --- Anne Crowley <blazing.valley wrote: > > > > > I agree she needs good counseling from someone. An > > acupuncture TX I use > > from the Worsley school is called the internal > > demons treatment: Master > > point 1/4 inch below CV 15, ST 25, ST32, ST41, > > insert top to botton, > > straight in, when all inserted go back and turn > > counterclockwise. Leave > > in for 20 mins or more if needed. I would leave the > > room, open window > > if possible or light candle. You should be near by > > if needed. This is > > a great tx for getting patients released of old > > stuff and " back " to > > themselves. It might be needed more than once. I > > ususally only do > > once, followed by Bach Shu agressive energy tx, yin > > only, release for 20 > > mins. I do these in 2 separate txs. You can repeat > > the internal demons > > tx if someone has something major come up later. I > > always follow it > > with the agressive energy tx, back shu, yin only, > > even (no turning) 20 > > mins or more until reddness clears on back. This is > > the Worsley > > protocol - internal demons, then agressvie energy tx > > always follows. > > > > Good Luck > > > > CENTRO EUROPEO DE MEDICINA H CENTRO EUROPEO DE > > MEDICINA HOLISTICA wrote: > > > > > > > > hi there everyone. I need some direction with a > > new patient. About > > > 16 years ago whilst pregnant her mother was > > murdered and she aborted. > > > Since which she was put on various drugs by the > > pschiatrist. She now > > > has problems with memory, but gets scared in lifts > > with strangers, > > > etc. and gets anxious very easily. Any ideas on > > the surface? > > > > > > Thanks very much for all your suggestions > > > > > > Best wishes > > > > > > Sharon E. Nilsson - Spain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Anne, I am sure the treatments you describe are good ones and effective, but the description of the actual illness phenomenon is too vague to really describe what is going on. Using such general terms as 'energy' ( I assume you mean qi in some form), emotional or physical (which one or both?), 'chaotic energy', 'aggressive', need to be qualified more to avoid getting lost in generalities which can become meaningless very quickly. This is why when we have such discussions, I suggest tying the particular term to the Chinese via pinyin or character, so we can reference sources and understand what is being discussed. Otherwise, what you end up with is chop suey. One of the dangers of the 'healing crisis' idea is iatrogenic treatment. For example, giving herbs that cause diarrhea, or using enemas in weak patients may cause a strong reaction. The reaction, which may be extreme with discomfort, is not a good one. This may be interpreted as a healing crisis, when in reality, the patient's condition has been weakened. The practitioner, according to the Shang Han Lun, may actually be driving the disease deeper into the body, even though symptoms may be relieved. This is called a bian zheng, or 'transmuted pattern'. On Dec 18, 2004, at 7:00 AM, Anne Crowley wrote: > > Aggressive energy is a block that occurs when there are toxins in the > body from toxic energy of some kind, this can be emotional or > physical. > For instance, I would do this after a person has had any kind of > anethesia, probably need to do it more than once. I do it as a matter > of course when people first start. If my exisiting patients have any > kind of chaotic energy come up I do it again. Sometimes I sense it, > and > then question into it. Also I do it to clear heat. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Z'ev: Perhaps too complex an issue for an email. Lonny Jarret in " The Clinical Practice of , " devotes 21 pages to this topic complete with pictures and references as to its possible origins. This is the first time I've seen this Worsley treatment laid out in this much detail. He also has a footnote about the use of the word " energy " . He uses it because the treatment is so well known as " aggressive energy. " My best definition of chaotic emotional state is " patient feels uneasy inside, feels like not themselves. " Of course there are pulse qualities that he describes also. I know when I have it. Again, for a clearer understanding I would recommend Lonny's book. It's 828 pages, costs about $85 U.S. Healing Crisis: This AE treatment can produce a " law of cure " effect (there I go again) which can occur within 24 to 48 hours after treatment. Lonny describes it as a gentle first treatment that can be used in a a lot of clinical cases. He does caution on the use of it in cases of severe degenerative illnesses, e.g. cancer, AIDS. He suggests draining it a little bit at a time, 15 mins at max, and not to use it excessively. Well, I hope I have clarified this more. But I do think I'm done with this subject. I would suggest if my explanation is too unclear, don't use it. If you're interest is peaked still, read Lonnie Jarrett. wrote: > Anne, > I am sure the treatments you describe are good ones and effective, > but the description of the actual illness phenomenon is too vague to > really describe what is going on. Using such general terms as 'energy' > ( I assume you mean qi in some form), emotional or physical (which one > or both?), 'chaotic energy', 'aggressive', need to be qualified more to > avoid getting lost in generalities which can become meaningless very > quickly. This is why when we have such discussions, I suggest tying > the particular term to the Chinese via pinyin or character, so we can > reference sources and understand what is being discussed. Otherwise, > what you end up with is chop suey. > > One of the dangers of the 'healing crisis' idea is iatrogenic > treatment. For example, giving herbs that cause diarrhea, or using > enemas in weak patients may cause a strong reaction. The reaction, > which may be extreme with discomfort, is not a good one. This may be > interpreted as a healing crisis, when in reality, the patient's > condition has been weakened. The practitioner, according to the Shang > Han Lun, may actually be driving the disease deeper into the body, even > though symptoms may be relieved. This is called a bian zheng, or > 'transmuted pattern'. > > > On Dec 18, 2004, at 7:00 AM, Anne Crowley wrote: > > > > > Aggressive energy is a block that occurs when there are toxins in the > > body from toxic energy of some kind, this can be emotional or > > physical. > > For instance, I would do this after a person has had any kind of > > anethesia, probably need to do it more than once. I do it as a matter > > of course when people first start. If my exisiting patients have any > > kind of chaotic energy come up I do it again. Sometimes I sense it, > > and > > then question into it. Also I do it to clear heat. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Anne, Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Lonny is a good friend of mine, and was kind enough to make a copy of his book as a present to me some time ago. I've read most of it, and enjoyed it immensely. It's a good read. While Lonny does a very nice job of explaining Worsley concepts in the text (he gives the source of 'aggressive energy' as xie qi/evil qi via Li Dongyuan), the Worsley use of the term doesn't allow the reader to access any source in Chinese medical literature. Even simple pinyin would be helpful in his (Worsley's) teachings/work. While I am sometimes critical of how the Worsley material is presented, I do admire the allegiance to five phase theory and the importance given to emotional/psychological issues. Therefore, many of his students (this doesn't imply you personally) use this term in a somewhat fuzzy manner, without really understanding what it is he was talking about. As you've noted, this is the first time anyone has described this concept in such detail. And to me, what a shame, as this concept has been used for over twenty years without any clear definition. On Dec 18, 2004, at 9:28 PM, Anne Crowley wrote: > > Perhaps too complex an issue for an email. Lonny Jarret in " The > Clinical Practice of , " devotes 21 pages to this topic > complete with pictures and references as to its possible origins. > This > is the first time I've seen this Worsley treatment laid out in this > much > detail. He also has a footnote about the use of the word " energy " . > He > uses it because the treatment is so well known as " aggressive energy. " > My best definition of chaotic emotional state is " patient feels uneasy > inside, feels like not themselves. " Of course there are pulse > qualities > that he describes also. I know when I have it. Again, for a clearer > understanding I would recommend Lonny's book. It's 828 pages, costs > about $85 U.S. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Hi Z'ev, Apart from using consistent CM terms, perhaps we could also define healing crisis. For instance it can be described as; - No new symptoms, only those previously encounted - No worse degree of symptom than has previously been encounted - No longer than 24 hr in duration Or another is; - Whilst encountering same symptoms there is no feeling of illness as there was before These are mere suggestions, best wishes, [zrosenbe] Sunday, 19 December 2004 12:49 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Severe shock and its effects help please Anne, I am sure the treatments you describe are good ones and effective, but the description of the actual illness phenomenon is too vague to really describe what is going on. Using such general terms as 'energy' ( I assume you mean qi in some form), emotional or physical (which one or both?), 'chaotic energy', 'aggressive', need to be qualified more to avoid getting lost in generalities which can become meaningless very quickly. This is why when we have such discussions, I suggest tying the particular term to the Chinese via pinyin or character, so we can reference sources and understand what is being discussed. Otherwise, what you end up with is chop suey. One of the dangers of the 'healing crisis' idea is iatrogenic treatment. For example, giving herbs that cause diarrhea, or using enemas in weak patients may cause a strong reaction. The reaction, which may be extreme with discomfort, is not a good one. This may be interpreted as a healing crisis, when in reality, the patient's condition has been weakened. The practitioner, according to the Shang Han Lun, may actually be driving the disease deeper into the body, even though symptoms may be relieved. This is called a bian zheng, or 'transmuted pattern'. On Dec 18, 2004, at 7:00 AM, Anne Crowley wrote: > > Aggressive energy is a block that occurs when there are toxins in the > body from toxic energy of some kind, this can be emotional or > physical. > For instance, I would do this after a person has had any kind of > anethesia, probably need to do it more than once. I do it as a matter > of course when people first start. If my exisiting patients have any > kind of chaotic energy come up I do it again. Sometimes I sense it, > and > then question into it. Also I do it to clear heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Zev Even though the translation may be fuzzy from Worsley to students, this treatment is a real " gift " to patients. (Lonny, as you know explains his experience in a lot of detail) I've seen it many times in my practice. One example, my first patient on my own - 65 years old, smoked for 50 years, fireman for 25 years, had two heart attacks (maybe three he said), was blown out of a building, lost his wife in the last 5 years (still heart broken). After doing the Internal Demons, and External Demons, I did the AE treatment. He came in and said he had gotten his appetite back for the first time in 6 months or a year, and what really got me was he said, " I feel 20 years younger. " If any treatment can do that for someone, even for a day, I say it is a great gift to a patient. wrote: > Anne, > Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Lonny is a good friend of > mine, and was kind enough to make a copy of his book as a present to me > some time ago. I've read most of it, and enjoyed it immensely. It's a > good read. > > While Lonny does a very nice job of explaining Worsley concepts in > the text (he gives the source of 'aggressive energy' as xie qi/evil qi > via Li Dongyuan), the Worsley use of the term doesn't allow the reader > to access any source in Chinese medical literature. Even simple pinyin > would be helpful in his (Worsley's) teachings/work. While I am > sometimes critical of how the Worsley material is presented, I do > admire the allegiance to five phase theory and the importance given to > emotional/psychological issues. Therefore, many of his students (this > doesn't imply you personally) use this term in a somewhat fuzzy manner, > without really understanding what it is he was talking about. As > you've noted, this is the first time anyone has described this concept > in such detail. And to me, what a shame, as this concept has been used > for over twenty years without any clear definition. > > > On Dec 18, 2004, at 9:28 PM, Anne Crowley wrote: > > > > > Perhaps too complex an issue for an email. Lonny Jarret in " The > > Clinical Practice of , " devotes 21 pages to this topic > > complete with pictures and references as to its possible origins. > > This > > is the first time I've seen this Worsley treatment laid out in this > > much > > detail. He also has a footnote about the use of the word " energy " . > > He > > uses it because the treatment is so well known as " aggressive energy. " > > My best definition of chaotic emotional state is " patient feels uneasy > > inside, feels like not themselves. " Of course there are pulse > > qualities > > that he describes also. I know when I have it. Again, for a clearer > > understanding I would recommend Lonny's book. It's 828 pages, costs > > about $85 U.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Your patient would benefit from Homoeopathic treatment to get down to the deep trauma in her system Regards Deirdre - < <Chinese Medicine > Friday, December 17, 2004 3:21 PM Re: Severe shock and its effects help please > > Hii Sharon, & All, > > Sharon wrote: > > I need some direction with a new patient. About 16 years ago > > whilst pregnant her mother was murdered and she aborted. Since > > which she was put on various drugs by the pschiatrist. She now > > has problems with memory, but gets scared in lifts with strangers, > > etc. and gets anxious very easily. Any ideas on the surface? > > Sharon E. Nilsson - Spain > > Sudden shock / bereavement / grief / fear: ?KI Xu with ?LU Xu > > This woman needs expert counselling + much understanding and > love. Clearly, the psychiatrist has not succeeded. Suggest > changing to a different shrink + a psychotherapist trained in grief / > shock counselling and Jungian methods. > > Add weekly AP for 1 month at: > Spirit Points BL42-Pohu + BL52-Zhishi to boost Po and Zhi > LU01 + GB25 [Mu Alarm Pts for LU and KI) > LU09 + KI07 (Mother Pts to Tonify LU and KI) > > Homeopathic Arnica (C30), one single dose only for the shock / > bereavement. Warn that there may be flashbacks and sudden > panic for some days afterwards. > > After 1 week, add Nux vomica + Aconite (C6), one of each, bid, for > 1 month for fear > > Reassess in 1 month > > > Best regards, > > Email: < Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Alon, Clearly for 2000 years all observations in the clinic in Chinese medicine have been stated within an overall tradition of practice, under an 'umbrella' if you like. The question is not what modern practitioners observe in the clinic, it is how they express what it is they are seeing. Do we want an eclectic mish-mash of a medicine with elements of homeopathy, naturopathy and Western medicine mixed in, or do we want an honest appraisal of where Chinese medicine truly comes from? Otherwise, the ongoing tradition of 2000 years will be lost to the West. Yes, many types of acupuncture have been designed in the West and have been shown to be effective. However, these are not labeled as 'traditional Chinese acupuncture', they are called auriculotherapy, scalp acupuncture, etc. This is not, however, true of Chinese herbal medicine. This is why we should be careful not to mix up herbal medicine and acupuncture as well. On Dec 20, 2004, at 12:06 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > Even though the translation may be fuzzy from Worsley to students, > this > treatment is a real " gift " to patients. > > > >>>Also not all acupu treatments need to have a chinese root. There > have been many useful developments in acup from the west, auricular > for example. This goes for the healing crises as well. I for one do > not care if one can document a chinese root if practitioners are > seeing it in their practices using acup and CM herbs. It is as valid > as if it came from any classic or other chinese source.Is our > observation any less valid? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 As I said in my last posting, I am not doubting clinical efficacy, I am just questioning our use of terminology to communicate these clinical events. If we cannot explain what it is we are doing clearly, it reflects poorly on the profession. On Dec 19, 2004, at 7:58 AM, Anne Crowley wrote: > > Zev > > Even though the translation may be fuzzy from Worsley to students, > this > treatment is a real " gift " to patients. (Lonny, as you know explains > his > experience in a lot of detail) I've seen it many times in my > practice. > One example, my first patient on my own - 65 years old, smoked for 50 > years, fireman for 25 years, had two heart attacks (maybe three he > said), was blown out of a building, lost his wife in the last 5 years > (still heart broken). After doing the Internal Demons, and External > Demons, I did the AE treatment. He came in and said he had gotten his > appetite back for the first time in 6 months or a year, and what > really > got me was he said, " I feel 20 years younger. " If any treatment can > do > that for someone, even for a day, I say it is a great gift to a > patient. > > wrote: > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 I think it is important to understand that we have a large amount of western medicine within our tradition as it is currently practiced in China. They do not practice classical Chinese medicine there for the most part. On the other hand, the Chinese incorporated many discoveries as they learned of them from others. We should think of this when we talk about our definition of . We also need to include language and concepts as we understand them. Change is what made this medicine dynamic, limiting ourselves to this creates stasis. For most of us, we do not speak ancient Chinese altough it sure would be nice. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Severe shock and its effects help please >Sun, 19 Dec 2004 11:10:49 -0800 > >Alon, > Clearly for 2000 years all observations in the clinic in Chinese >medicine have been stated within an overall tradition of practice, >under an 'umbrella' if you like. The question is not what modern >practitioners observe in the clinic, it is how they express what it is >they are seeing. Do we want an eclectic mish-mash of a medicine with >elements of homeopathy, naturopathy and Western medicine mixed in, or >do we want an honest appraisal of where Chinese medicine truly comes >from? Otherwise, the ongoing tradition of 2000 years will be lost to >the West. > > Yes, many types of acupuncture have been designed in the West and >have been shown to be effective. However, these are not labeled as >'traditional Chinese acupuncture', they are called auriculotherapy, >scalp acupuncture, etc. This is not, however, true of Chinese herbal >medicine. This is why we should be careful not to mix up herbal >medicine and acupuncture as well. > > >On Dec 20, 2004, at 12:06 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > > > > Even though the translation may be fuzzy from Worsley to students, > > this > > treatment is a real " gift " to patients. > > > > > > >>>Also not all acupu treatments need to have a chinese root. There > > have been many useful developments in acup from the west, auricular > > for example. This goes for the healing crises as well. I for one do > > not care if one can document a chinese root if practitioners are > > seeing it in their practices using acup and CM herbs. It is as valid > > as if it came from any classic or other chinese source.Is our > > observation any less valid? > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 This is would all be well and good if we really grasped Chinese medicine fully in the West. Since the vast majority of material on Chinese medicine has not been translated into a Western language, we cannot claim to change or modify the medicine until we get through the stage of setting foundations, standards, and a suitably broad mastery of the essential literature. Chinese medicine is vast. . . in this discussion on healing crisis, we've touched on a little of the depth and complexity of Chinese medicine in terms of the strategies listed in the attack and purge school, Li-Zhu medicine, Shang Han Lun, Wen Bing, and other approaches. I think we have little danger of stasis at this point. I think there is much more possibility of misintepretation, misunderstanding, misapplication and inappropriate mixing of conceptual and clinical ideas at this point. On Dec 19, 2004, at 2:34 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > > I think it is important to understand that we have a large amount of > western > medicine within our tradition as it is currently practiced in China. > They > do not practice classical Chinese medicine there for the most part. > On the > other hand, the Chinese incorporated many discoveries as they learned > of > them from others. We should think of this when we talk about our > definition > of . We also need to include language and concepts > as we > understand them. Change is what made this medicine dynamic, limiting > ourselves to this creates stasis. For most of us, we do not speak > ancient > Chinese altough it sure would be nice. Later > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 Here we are entering a new arena. What is and what isn't Chinese medicine? And how do we define it? You use the example of Voll acupuncture, which is not based on yin yang or channel theory, but has developed into an autonomous system with its own system of 'meridians' and points. Similarly with Nogier auriculotherapy, which is based largely on embryology and the ear as a micro-system of the body. Because they use different criteria and diagnostic methods, in my opinion they are not Chinese medicine, but spinoff systems that are like cousins to the main body of the medicine. Just because they use a technology of Chinese medicine (needles) doesn't mean they are Chinese medicine. As I mentioned earlier, such innovations are rare with the herbal/internal medicine tradition. They are much more common with acupuncture. While pharmacological uses of herbs has increased, it still has relatively little influence on how herbal prescriptions are designed. On Dec 20, 2004, at 2:51 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > Z'ev my position i a little different. I take a view that clinical > outcome is the only important parameter. So if new observations are > developed in the west, which use the language of acup and CM > regardless of modern influences (which as been the case through out CM > history) they are welcomed and should be peer reviewed and > experimented with. For example, Voll's work started from traditional > acupuncture but clearly gone beyond and is strongly influenced by > modern physiology and diagnostic lingo. While i have a limited > experience with Voll's work i know many that say it is extremely > effective (and many state it is much more effective than " traditional > approaches " ). This is no different than any new development in CM > history. I take a patient focused approach, if my use of Chinese > herbal therapy or acupuncture is benefited (and the patients shows a > better outcome) by integrating newer information i see this as a > natural progression of what we call Chinese medicine. As far as > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 Zev, So when do you plan to start your school? I would agree with you unfortunately it took you how many years to get to this level? If the schools cannot get graduates to an acceptable level than they need to change and focus on this material. As I recall there was little or no effort to go into the classics in school. Maybe that has changed. Lastly, practitioners will choose to define or describe ideas and concepts as they see fit and this may include commonly used ideas as well. We cannot change this. Some might call this progress. We cannot say that it is OK to use western medical conditions at one time and critique a homeopathic term the next. That is hypocritical. I have found more than a few references on here to western conditions. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Severe shock and its effects help please >Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:36:50 -0800 > >This is would all be well and good if we really grasped Chinese >medicine fully in the West. Since the vast majority of material on >Chinese medicine has not been translated into a Western language, we >cannot claim to change or modify the medicine until we get through the >stage of setting foundations, standards, and a suitably broad mastery >of the essential literature. Chinese medicine is vast. . . in this >discussion on healing crisis, we've touched on a little of the depth >and complexity of Chinese medicine in terms of the strategies listed in >the attack and purge school, Li-Zhu medicine, Shang Han Lun, Wen Bing, >and other approaches. I think we have little danger of stasis at this >point. I think there is much more possibility of misintepretation, >misunderstanding, misapplication and inappropriate mixing of conceptual >and clinical ideas at this point. > > >On Dec 19, 2004, at 2:34 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > > > I think it is important to understand that we have a large amount of > > western > > medicine within our tradition as it is currently practiced in China. > > They > > do not practice classical Chinese medicine there for the most part. > > On the > > other hand, the Chinese incorporated many discoveries as they learned > > of > > them from others. We should think of this when we talk about our > > definition > > of . We also need to include language and concepts > > as we > > understand them. Change is what made this medicine dynamic, limiting > > ourselves to this creates stasis. For most of us, we do not speak > > ancient > > Chinese altough it sure would be nice. Later > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 I think that Chinese medicine is changing and we need to accept this or risk becoming static. As new discoveries are found we need to allow for change. That is what makes this fresh and alive. How do we know that Voll's ideas are not reflective of meridians (dislike word). We may be surprised by the research that is showing some very important findings. I hope we are not interested in having our heads in the sand while others determine our future in mainstream medicine, we have a lot of people to help. Now the Chinese idea of auricular map could be questioned here as well and what about herbal concentrates? If we are to question too much and limit our perceptions we run the risk of loosing a rather large % of our profession. I am referring to our Chinese colleagues. They are trained as western-eastern medical providers and provide for a more integrated look at health. We have not really discussed the fact that they do not fit into the mold of a classical practitioner. My question to ourselves is, are we willing to move in the same direction (integration) that they are or not? This is a broad question and we can all find limitations and conditions but as a generality do we want this? If not, are we willing to let this group align itself with the medical profession? The answers to this should be important for us to consider. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Severe shock and its effects help please >Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:48:34 -0800 > >Here we are entering a new arena. > >What is and what isn't Chinese medicine? > >And how do we define it? > >You use the example of Voll acupuncture, which is not based on yin yang >or channel theory, but has developed into an autonomous system with its >own system of 'meridians' and points. Similarly with Nogier >auriculotherapy, which is based largely on embryology and the ear as a >micro-system of the body. Because they use different criteria and >diagnostic methods, in my opinion they are not Chinese medicine, but >spinoff systems that are like cousins to the main body of the medicine. > Just because they use a technology of Chinese medicine (needles) >doesn't mean they are Chinese medicine. > >As I mentioned earlier, such innovations are rare with the >herbal/internal medicine tradition. They are much more common with >acupuncture. While pharmacological uses of herbs has increased, it >still has relatively little influence on how herbal prescriptions are >designed. > > >On Dec 20, 2004, at 2:51 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > > > > Z'ev my position i a little different. I take a view that clinical > > outcome is the only important parameter. So if new observations are > > developed in the west, which use the language of acup and CM > > regardless of modern influences (which as been the case through out CM > > history) they are welcomed and should be peer reviewed and > > experimented with. For example, Voll's work started from traditional > > acupuncture but clearly gone beyond and is strongly influenced by > > modern physiology and diagnostic lingo. While i have a limited > > experience with Voll's work i know many that say it is extremely > > effective (and many state it is much more effective than " traditional > > approaches " ). This is no different than any new development in CM > > history. I take a patient focused approach, if my use of Chinese > > herbal therapy or acupuncture is benefited (and the patients shows a > > better outcome) by integrating newer information i see this as a > > natural progression of what we call Chinese medicine. As far as > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 Okay so define Chinese medicine. [zrosenbe] Monday, 20 December 2004 10:49 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Severe shock and its effects help please Here we are entering a new arena. What is and what isn't Chinese medicine? And how do we define it? You use the example of Voll acupuncture, which is not based on yin yang or channel theory, but has developed into an autonomous system with its own system of 'meridians' and points. Similarly with Nogier auriculotherapy, which is based largely on embryology and the ear as a micro-system of the body. Because they use different criteria and diagnostic methods, in my opinion they are not Chinese medicine, but spinoff systems that are like cousins to the main body of the medicine. Just because they use a technology of Chinese medicine (needles) doesn't mean they are Chinese medicine. As I mentioned earlier, such innovations are rare with the herbal/internal medicine tradition. They are much more common with acupuncture. While pharmacological uses of herbs has increased, it still has relatively little influence on how herbal prescriptions are designed. On Dec 20, 2004, at 2:51 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > Z'ev my position i a little different. I take a view that clinical > outcome is the only important parameter. So if new observations are > developed in the west, which use the language of acup and CM > regardless of modern influences (which as been the case through out CM > history) they are welcomed and should be peer reviewed and > experimented with. For example, Voll's work started from traditional > acupuncture but clearly gone beyond and is strongly influenced by > modern physiology and diagnostic lingo. While i have a limited > experience with Voll's work i know many that say it is extremely > effective (and many state it is much more effective than " traditional > approaches " ). This is no different than any new development in CM > history. I take a patient focused approach, if my use of Chinese > herbal therapy or acupuncture is benefited (and the patients shows a > better outcome) by integrating newer information i see this as a > natural progression of what we call Chinese medicine. As far as > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 Even though the translation may be fuzzy from Worsley to students, this treatment is a real " gift " to patients. >>>Also not all acupu treatments need to have a chinese root. There have been many useful developments in acup from the west, auricular for example. This goes for the healing crises as well. I for one do not care if one can document a chinese root if practitioners are seeing it in their practices using acup and CM herbs. It is as valid as if it came from any classic or other chinese source.Is our observation any less valid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 Do we want an eclectic mish-mash of a medicine with elements of homeopathy, naturopathy and Western medicine mixed in, or do we want an honest appraisal of where Chinese medicine truly comes from? Otherwise, the ongoing tradition of 2000 years will be lost to the West. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Z'ev my position i a little different. I take a view that clinical outcome is the only important parameter. So if new observations are developed in the west, which use the language of acup and CM regardless of modern influences (which as been the case through out CM history) they are welcomed and should be peer reviewed and experimented with. For example, Voll's work started from traditional acupuncture but clearly gone beyond and is strongly influenced by modern physiology and diagnostic lingo. While i have a limited experience with Voll's work i know many that say it is extremely effective (and many state it is much more effective than " traditional approaches " ). This is no different than any new development in CM history. I take a patient focused approach, if my use of Chinese herbal therapy or acupuncture is benefited (and the patients shows a better outcome) by integrating newer information i see this as a natural progression of what we call Chinese medicine. As far as healing crises, CM is by enlarge allopathic, but the concepts of treating toxins with toxins, yang with yang, yin with yin are homeopathic and thus such ideas are not outside CM thinking. Certainly the movement of pathogenic factors via stages as seen in SHL and wen bing are quite similar to homotoxicology six levels. Yes the stages are more clearly explained with modern homotoxicology but the general ideas are quite similar (and some believe that the ideas of homotoxicology actually came from SHL). If highly diluted medications work than this can be viewed as natural progression of SHL and wen bing and should be integrated. So-called authenticity can be quite limiting. I agree that just MSU is dangerous but not all newer developments are in this category and having a Chinese source of any idea does not mean it is more than just MSU, especially when you read some of the rational beyond ideas for treatment from the case histories in Chinese medical literature. More often than not they are based on a single case history which make them of limited value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 I can't help but think that the meridians are part of the internal flow of energy... the Indians focused on the Charkas, external energy flow ???,... power therapies now use the meridians and acu points and charkas in ways that are not described in the texts translated into English that I have studied. If such pathways are there, understanding them in principle and how to utilise them to attain or maintain health in practice is not a finished book. And even if it were, the health challenges today are quite different to those found at different times over the last 2,000 years. We would need to adapt the principles to the modern day conditions, eg moving from air con to hot humid climates via planes or instantly via door ways, just didn't happen 2,000 years ago. I don't think we become static, I think that people, both practitioners utilising these power therapies and patients mastering them move exponentially past us. I suppose we all have patients for whom we do the work, ie get rid of the incontinence etc, and then there are other patients, who don't want us to 'fix' it they want us to facilitate their learning and ability to directly manage the soft and hardware of their bodymindspirit. I suspect there will be places for those who want to have treatment done for them and also places for those who want to learn to master their BMS. And maybe some of us practitioners will do both these things. Whilst respecting the roots of CM, one must still attend to the flowers of the tree, and also the transplanted seedlings of the tree found is so many different climates. Best wishes, mike Bowser [naturaldoc1] Monday, 20 December 2004 11:13 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Severe shock and its effects help please I think that Chinese medicine is changing and we need to accept this or risk becoming static. As new discoveries are found we need to allow for change. That is what makes this fresh and alive. How do we know that Voll's ideas are not reflective of meridians (dislike word). We may be surprised by the research that is showing some very important findings. I hope we are not interested in having our heads in the sand while others determine our future in mainstream medicine, we have a lot of people to help. Now the Chinese idea of auricular map could be questioned here as well and what about herbal concentrates? If we are to question too much and limit our perceptions we run the risk of loosing a rather large % of our profession. I am referring to our Chinese colleagues. They are trained as western-eastern medical providers and provide for a more integrated look at health. We have not really discussed the fact that they do not fit into the mold of a classical practitioner. My question to ourselves is, are we willing to move in the same direction (integration) that they are or not? This is a broad question and we can all find limitations and conditions but as a generality do we want this? If not, are we willing to let this group align itself with the medical profession? The answers to this should be important for us to consider. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Severe shock and its effects help please >Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:48:34 -0800 > >Here we are entering a new arena. > >What is and what isn't Chinese medicine? > >And how do we define it? > >You use the example of Voll acupuncture, which is not based on yin yang >or channel theory, but has developed into an autonomous system with its >own system of 'meridians' and points. Similarly with Nogier >auriculotherapy, which is based largely on embryology and the ear as a >micro-system of the body. Because they use different criteria and >diagnostic methods, in my opinion they are not Chinese medicine, but >spinoff systems that are like cousins to the main body of the medicine. > Just because they use a technology of Chinese medicine (needles) >doesn't mean they are Chinese medicine. > >As I mentioned earlier, such innovations are rare with the >herbal/internal medicine tradition. They are much more common with >acupuncture. While pharmacological uses of herbs has increased, it >still has relatively little influence on how herbal prescriptions are >designed. > > >On Dec 20, 2004, at 2:51 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > > > > Z'ev my position i a little different. I take a view that clinical > > outcome is the only important parameter. So if new observations are > > developed in the west, which use the language of acup and CM > > regardless of modern influences (which as been the case through out CM > > history) they are welcomed and should be peer reviewed and > > experimented with. For example, Voll's work started from traditional > > acupuncture but clearly gone beyond and is strongly influenced by > > modern physiology and diagnostic lingo. While i have a limited > > experience with Voll's work i know many that say it is extremely > > effective (and many state it is much more effective than " traditional > > approaches " ). This is no different than any new development in CM > > history. I take a patient focused approach, if my use of Chinese > > herbal therapy or acupuncture is benefited (and the patients shows a > > better outcome) by integrating newer information i see this as a > > natural progression of what we call Chinese medicine. As far as > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 That is for us as a profession, the question. I wouldn't venture to answer by myself. On Dec 19, 2004, at 11:21 PM, Sharon wrote: > Okay so define Chinese medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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