Severe shock and its effects help please

[Guest guest]

hi there everyone. I need some direction with a new patient. About 16 years

ago whilst pregnant her mother was murdered and she aborted. Since which she

was put on various drugs by the pschiatrist. She now has problems with memory,

but gets scared in lifts with strangers, etc. and gets anxious very easily. Any

ideas on the surface?

 

Thanks very much for all your suggestions

 

Best wishes

 

Sharon E. Nilsson - Spain

 

Centro Europeo de Medicina Holística S.L.

 

Lic. Chiropractor Johan E. Nilsson

 

Sharon E. Nilsson Lic. Ac.

 

c/Herrerías 20, Edificio Albéniz II

 

03580 Alfaz del Pi, Alicante, Spain

[Guest guest]

Tongue will tell.

Fissures? Central, deep? Elsewhere on tongue?

 

Look at ear lobes for the HT Emotions crease.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Hii Sharon, & All,

 

Sharon wrote:

> I need some direction with a new patient. About 16 years ago

> whilst pregnant her mother was murdered and she aborted. Since

> which she was put on various drugs by the pschiatrist. She now

> has problems with memory, but gets scared in lifts with strangers,

> etc. and gets anxious very easily. Any ideas on the surface?

> Sharon E. Nilsson - Spain

 

Sudden shock / bereavement / grief / fear: ?KI Xu with ?LU Xu

 

This woman needs expert counselling + much understanding and

love. Clearly, the psychiatrist has not succeeded. Suggest

changing to a different shrink + a psychotherapist trained in grief /

shock counselling and Jungian methods.

 

Add weekly AP for 1 month at:

Spirit Points BL42-Pohu + BL52-Zhishi to boost Po and Zhi

LU01 + GB25 [Mu Alarm Pts for LU and KI)

LU09 + KI07 (Mother Pts to Tonify LU and KI)

 

Homeopathic Arnica (C30), one single dose only for the shock /

bereavement. Warn that there may be flashbacks and sudden

panic for some days afterwards.

 

After 1 week, add Nux vomica + Aconite (C6), one of each, bid, for

1 month for fear

 

Reassess in 1 month

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

[Guest guest]

You might consider different areas of treatment. One I have found to be very

effective is EFT and the different styles that are similar to it.

 

http://www.emofree.com/

 

 

CENTRO EUROPEO DE MEDICINA H CENTRO EUROPEO DE MEDICINA HOLISTICA

<johan.nilsson wrote:

 

hi there everyone. I need some direction with a new patient. About 16 years

ago whilst pregnant her mother was murdered and she aborted. Since which she

was put on various drugs by the pschiatrist. She now has problems with memory,

but gets scared in lifts with strangers, etc. and gets anxious very easily. Any

ideas on the surface?

 

Thanks very much for all your suggestions

 

Best wishes

 

Sharon E. Nilsson - Spain

[Guest guest]

I agree she needs good counseling from someone. An acupuncture TX I use

from the Worsley school is called the internal demons treatment: Master

point 1/4 inch below CV 15, ST 25, ST32, ST41, insert top to botton,

straight in, when all inserted go back and turn counterclockwise. Leave

in for 20 mins or more if needed. I would leave the room, open window

if possible or light candle. You should be near by if needed. This is

a great tx for getting patients released of old stuff and " back " to

themselves. It might be needed more than once. I ususally only do

once, followed by Bach Shu agressive energy tx, yin only, release for 20

mins. I do these in 2 separate txs. You can repeat the internal demons

tx if someone has something major come up later. I always follow it

with the agressive energy tx, back shu, yin only, even (no turning) 20

mins or more until reddness clears on back. This is the Worsley

protocol - internal demons, then agressvie energy tx always follows.

 

Good Luck

 

CENTRO EUROPEO DE MEDICINA H CENTRO EUROPEO DE MEDICINA HOLISTICA wrote:

 

>

> hi there everyone. I need some direction with a new patient. About

> 16 years ago whilst pregnant her mother was murdered and she aborted.

> Since which she was put on various drugs by the pschiatrist. She now

> has problems with memory, but gets scared in lifts with strangers,

> etc. and gets anxious very easily. Any ideas on the surface?

>

> Thanks very much for all your suggestions

>

> Best wishes

>

> Sharon E. Nilsson - Spain

[Guest guest]

Do you mind sharing what the Back Shu aggressive

energy tx'nt, Yin only is? I gather you are using the

Back Shu of the Yin Organs only... can you explain a

bit more. What is aggressive if its even? Thanks.

David Tarlo, L.Ac.

d1tarlo

 

--- Anne Crowley <blazing.valley wrote:

 

>

> I agree she needs good counseling from someone. An

> acupuncture TX I use

> from the Worsley school is called the internal

> demons treatment: Master

> point 1/4 inch below CV 15, ST 25, ST32, ST41,

> insert top to botton,

> straight in, when all inserted go back and turn

> counterclockwise. Leave

> in for 20 mins or more if needed. I would leave the

> room, open window

> if possible or light candle. You should be near by

> if needed. This is

> a great tx for getting patients released of old

> stuff and " back " to

> themselves. It might be needed more than once. I

> ususally only do

> once, followed by Bach Shu agressive energy tx, yin

> only, release for 20

> mins. I do these in 2 separate txs. You can repeat

> the internal demons

> tx if someone has something major come up later. I

> always follow it

> with the agressive energy tx, back shu, yin only,

> even (no turning) 20

> mins or more until reddness clears on back. This is

> the Worsley

> protocol - internal demons, then agressvie energy tx

> always follows.

>

> Good Luck

>

> CENTRO EUROPEO DE MEDICINA H CENTRO EUROPEO DE

> MEDICINA HOLISTICA wrote:

>

> >

> > hi there everyone. I need some direction with a

> new patient. About

> > 16 years ago whilst pregnant her mother was

> murdered and she aborted.

> > Since which she was put on various drugs by the

> pschiatrist. She now

> > has problems with memory, but gets scared in lifts

> with strangers,

> > etc. and gets anxious very easily. Any ideas on

> the surface?

> >

> > Thanks very much for all your suggestions

> >

> > Best wishes

> >

> > Sharon E. Nilsson - Spain

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

Read only the mail you want - Mail SpamGuard.

 

[Guest guest]

David:

 

This is the aggressive energy tx. It is a stand alone tx - don't mix

other points with it until needles are out.

 

BL13, BL14, BL15, BL 18, BL 20, BL23. IMPORTANT: Insert BL15 after all

other needles are inserted.

 

Insert needles right to left, top to bottom into all points, shallow

insertion, one fen, needle hangs down without touching skin (shouldn't

touch skin (too shallow) or stick straight out (in too deep). Redness,

erythema, comes up around the point when there is aggressive energy, so

you should insert a test needle in each jiao to compare the red. AE is

redder and last longer than test needle. When the redness on points

clears, AE is cleared. You can't always get it to clear in one tx -

protocol is to leave them in for 20 min. (Sometimes there is AE and you

see no redness, check for heat coming out by holding your hand over one

jaio at a time. And sometimes you do it and you realize maybe the

patient didn't have it - no harm is done and it probably helped anyway.

 

Aggressive energy is a block that occurs when there are toxins in the

body from toxic energy of some kind, this can be emotional or physical.

For instance, I would do this after a person has had any kind of

anethesia, probably need to do it more than once. I do it as a matter

of course when people first start. If my exisiting patients have any

kind of chaotic energy come up I do it again. Sometimes I sense it, and

then question into it. Also I do it to clear heat.

 

The word aggressive is not how you manipulate the needles but rather

what you are treating.

 

I am sure there are TCM tx's that get to this in one way or another.

This is a Worsley 5E protocol.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Anne

David Tarlo wrote:

 

>

> Do you mind sharing what the Back Shu aggressive

> energy tx'nt, Yin only is? I gather you are using the

> Back Shu of the Yin Organs only... can you explain a

> bit more. What is aggressive if its even? Thanks.

> David Tarlo, L.Ac.

> d1tarlo

>

> --- Anne Crowley <blazing.valley wrote:

>

> >

> > I agree she needs good counseling from someone. An

> > acupuncture TX I use

> > from the Worsley school is called the internal

> > demons treatment: Master

> > point 1/4 inch below CV 15, ST 25, ST32, ST41,

> > insert top to botton,

> > straight in, when all inserted go back and turn

> > counterclockwise. Leave

> > in for 20 mins or more if needed. I would leave the

> > room, open window

> > if possible or light candle. You should be near by

> > if needed. This is

> > a great tx for getting patients released of old

> > stuff and " back " to

> > themselves. It might be needed more than once. I

> > ususally only do

> > once, followed by Bach Shu agressive energy tx, yin

> > only, release for 20

> > mins. I do these in 2 separate txs. You can repeat

> > the internal demons

> > tx if someone has something major come up later. I

> > always follow it

> > with the agressive energy tx, back shu, yin only,

> > even (no turning) 20

> > mins or more until reddness clears on back. This is

> > the Worsley

> > protocol - internal demons, then agressvie energy tx

> > always follows.

> >

> > Good Luck

> >

> > CENTRO EUROPEO DE MEDICINA H CENTRO EUROPEO DE

> > MEDICINA HOLISTICA wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > hi there everyone. I need some direction with a

> > new patient. About

> > > 16 years ago whilst pregnant her mother was

> > murdered and she aborted.

> > > Since which she was put on various drugs by the

> > pschiatrist. She now

> > > has problems with memory, but gets scared in lifts

> > with strangers,

> > > etc. and gets anxious very easily. Any ideas on

> > the surface?

> > >

> > > Thanks very much for all your suggestions

> > >

> > > Best wishes

> > >

> > > Sharon E. Nilsson - Spain

[Guest guest]

Anne,

I am sure the treatments you describe are good ones and effective,

but the description of the actual illness phenomenon is too vague to

really describe what is going on. Using such general terms as 'energy'

( I assume you mean qi in some form), emotional or physical (which one

or both?), 'chaotic energy', 'aggressive', need to be qualified more to

avoid getting lost in generalities which can become meaningless very

quickly. This is why when we have such discussions, I suggest tying

the particular term to the Chinese via pinyin or character, so we can

reference sources and understand what is being discussed. Otherwise,

what you end up with is chop suey.

 

One of the dangers of the 'healing crisis' idea is iatrogenic

treatment. For example, giving herbs that cause diarrhea, or using

enemas in weak patients may cause a strong reaction. The reaction,

which may be extreme with discomfort, is not a good one. This may be

interpreted as a healing crisis, when in reality, the patient's

condition has been weakened. The practitioner, according to the Shang

Han Lun, may actually be driving the disease deeper into the body, even

though symptoms may be relieved. This is called a bian zheng, or

'transmuted pattern'.

 

 

On Dec 18, 2004, at 7:00 AM, Anne Crowley wrote:

 

>

> Aggressive energy is a block that occurs when there are toxins in the

> body from toxic energy of some kind, this can be emotional or

> physical. 

> For instance, I would do this after a person has had any kind of

> anethesia, probably need to do it more than once.  I do it as a matter

> of course when people first start. If my exisiting patients have any

> kind of chaotic energy come up I do it again.  Sometimes I sense it,

> and

> then question into it.  Also I do it to clear heat.

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev:

 

Perhaps too complex an issue for an email. Lonny Jarret in " The

Clinical Practice of , " devotes 21 pages to this topic

complete with pictures and references as to its possible origins. This

is the first time I've seen this Worsley treatment laid out in this much

detail. He also has a footnote about the use of the word " energy " . He

uses it because the treatment is so well known as " aggressive energy. "

My best definition of chaotic emotional state is " patient feels uneasy

inside, feels like not themselves. " Of course there are pulse qualities

that he describes also. I know when I have it. Again, for a clearer

understanding I would recommend Lonny's book. It's 828 pages, costs

about $85 U.S.

 

Healing Crisis: This AE treatment can produce a " law of cure " effect

(there I go again) which can occur within 24 to 48 hours after treatment.

Lonny describes it as a gentle first treatment that can be used in a a

lot of clinical cases. He does caution on the use of it in cases of

severe degenerative illnesses, e.g. cancer, AIDS. He suggests draining

it a little bit at a time, 15 mins at max, and not to use it

excessively. Well, I hope I have clarified this more. But I do think

I'm done with this subject. I would suggest if my explanation is too

unclear, don't use it. If you're interest is peaked still, read Lonnie

Jarrett.

 

wrote:

 

> Anne,

> I am sure the treatments you describe are good ones and effective,

> but the description of the actual illness phenomenon is too vague to

> really describe what is going on. Using such general terms as 'energy'

> ( I assume you mean qi in some form), emotional or physical (which one

> or both?), 'chaotic energy', 'aggressive', need to be qualified more to

> avoid getting lost in generalities which can become meaningless very

> quickly. This is why when we have such discussions, I suggest tying

> the particular term to the Chinese via pinyin or character, so we can

> reference sources and understand what is being discussed. Otherwise,

> what you end up with is chop suey.

>

> One of the dangers of the 'healing crisis' idea is iatrogenic

> treatment. For example, giving herbs that cause diarrhea, or using

> enemas in weak patients may cause a strong reaction. The reaction,

> which may be extreme with discomfort, is not a good one. This may be

> interpreted as a healing crisis, when in reality, the patient's

> condition has been weakened. The practitioner, according to the Shang

> Han Lun, may actually be driving the disease deeper into the body, even

> though symptoms may be relieved. This is called a bian zheng, or

> 'transmuted pattern'.

>

>

> On Dec 18, 2004, at 7:00 AM, Anne Crowley wrote:

>

> >

> > Aggressive energy is a block that occurs when there are toxins in the

> > body from toxic energy of some kind, this can be emotional or

> > physical.

> > For instance, I would do this after a person has had any kind of

> > anethesia, probably need to do it more than once. I do it as a matter

> > of course when people first start. If my exisiting patients have any

> > kind of chaotic energy come up I do it again. Sometimes I sense it,

> > and

> > then question into it. Also I do it to clear heat.

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Anne,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Lonny is a good friend of

mine, and was kind enough to make a copy of his book as a present to me

some time ago. I've read most of it, and enjoyed it immensely. It's a

good read.

 

While Lonny does a very nice job of explaining Worsley concepts in

the text (he gives the source of 'aggressive energy' as xie qi/evil qi

via Li Dongyuan), the Worsley use of the term doesn't allow the reader

to access any source in Chinese medical literature. Even simple pinyin

would be helpful in his (Worsley's) teachings/work. While I am

sometimes critical of how the Worsley material is presented, I do

admire the allegiance to five phase theory and the importance given to

emotional/psychological issues. Therefore, many of his students (this

doesn't imply you personally) use this term in a somewhat fuzzy manner,

without really understanding what it is he was talking about. As

you've noted, this is the first time anyone has described this concept

in such detail. And to me, what a shame, as this concept has been used

for over twenty years without any clear definition.

 

 

On Dec 18, 2004, at 9:28 PM, Anne Crowley wrote:

 

>

> Perhaps too complex an issue for an email.  Lonny Jarret in " The

> Clinical Practice of , " devotes 21 pages to this topic

> complete with pictures and references as to its possible origins. 

> This

> is the first time I've seen this Worsley treatment laid out in this

> much

> detail.  He also has a footnote about the use of the word " energy " . 

> He

> uses it because the treatment is so well known as " aggressive energy. "

> My best definition of chaotic emotional state is " patient feels uneasy

> inside, feels like not themselves. "   Of course there are pulse

> qualities

> that he describes also. I know when I have it.  Again, for a clearer

> understanding I would recommend Lonny's book.  It's 828 pages, costs

> about $85 U.S.

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Z'ev,

Apart from using consistent CM terms, perhaps we could also define healing

crisis.

 

For instance it can be described as;

- No new symptoms, only those previously encounted

- No worse degree of symptom than has previously been encounted

- No longer than 24 hr in duration

 

Or another is;

- Whilst encountering same symptoms there is no feeling of illness as there

was before

 

These are mere suggestions,

best wishes,

 

 

 

[zrosenbe]

Sunday, 19 December 2004 12:49 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Severe shock and its effects help please

 

 

Anne,

I am sure the treatments you describe are good ones and effective,

but the description of the actual illness phenomenon is too vague to

really describe what is going on. Using such general terms as 'energy'

( I assume you mean qi in some form), emotional or physical (which one

or both?), 'chaotic energy', 'aggressive', need to be qualified more to

avoid getting lost in generalities which can become meaningless very

quickly. This is why when we have such discussions, I suggest tying

the particular term to the Chinese via pinyin or character, so we can

reference sources and understand what is being discussed. Otherwise,

what you end up with is chop suey.

 

One of the dangers of the 'healing crisis' idea is iatrogenic

treatment. For example, giving herbs that cause diarrhea, or using

enemas in weak patients may cause a strong reaction. The reaction,

which may be extreme with discomfort, is not a good one. This may be

interpreted as a healing crisis, when in reality, the patient's

condition has been weakened. The practitioner, according to the Shang

Han Lun, may actually be driving the disease deeper into the body, even

though symptoms may be relieved. This is called a bian zheng, or

'transmuted pattern'.

 

On Dec 18, 2004, at 7:00 AM, Anne Crowley wrote:

 

>

> Aggressive energy is a block that occurs when there are toxins in the

> body from toxic energy of some kind, this can be emotional or

> physical.

> For instance, I would do this after a person has had any kind of

> anethesia, probably need to do it more than once. I do it as a matter

> of course when people first start. If my exisiting patients have any

> kind of chaotic energy come up I do it again. Sometimes I sense it,

> and

> then question into it. Also I do it to clear heat.

[Guest guest]

Zev

 

Even though the translation may be fuzzy from Worsley to students, this

treatment is a real " gift " to patients. (Lonny, as you know explains his

experience in a lot of detail) I've seen it many times in my practice.

One example, my first patient on my own - 65 years old, smoked for 50

years, fireman for 25 years, had two heart attacks (maybe three he

said), was blown out of a building, lost his wife in the last 5 years

(still heart broken). After doing the Internal Demons, and External

Demons, I did the AE treatment. He came in and said he had gotten his

appetite back for the first time in 6 months or a year, and what really

got me was he said, " I feel 20 years younger. " If any treatment can do

that for someone, even for a day, I say it is a great gift to a patient.

 

wrote:

 

> Anne,

> Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Lonny is a good friend of

> mine, and was kind enough to make a copy of his book as a present to me

> some time ago. I've read most of it, and enjoyed it immensely. It's a

> good read.

>

> While Lonny does a very nice job of explaining Worsley concepts in

> the text (he gives the source of 'aggressive energy' as xie qi/evil qi

> via Li Dongyuan), the Worsley use of the term doesn't allow the reader

> to access any source in Chinese medical literature. Even simple pinyin

> would be helpful in his (Worsley's) teachings/work. While I am

> sometimes critical of how the Worsley material is presented, I do

> admire the allegiance to five phase theory and the importance given to

> emotional/psychological issues. Therefore, many of his students (this

> doesn't imply you personally) use this term in a somewhat fuzzy manner,

> without really understanding what it is he was talking about. As

> you've noted, this is the first time anyone has described this concept

> in such detail. And to me, what a shame, as this concept has been used

> for over twenty years without any clear definition.

>

>

> On Dec 18, 2004, at 9:28 PM, Anne Crowley wrote:

>

> >

> > Perhaps too complex an issue for an email. Lonny Jarret in " The

> > Clinical Practice of , " devotes 21 pages to this topic

> > complete with pictures and references as to its possible origins.

> > This

> > is the first time I've seen this Worsley treatment laid out in this

> > much

> > detail. He also has a footnote about the use of the word " energy " .

> > He

> > uses it because the treatment is so well known as " aggressive energy. "

> > My best definition of chaotic emotional state is " patient feels uneasy

> > inside, feels like not themselves. " Of course there are pulse

> > qualities

> > that he describes also. I know when I have it. Again, for a clearer

> > understanding I would recommend Lonny's book. It's 828 pages, costs

> > about $85 U.S.

[Guest guest]

Your patient would benefit from Homoeopathic treatment to get down to the

deep trauma in her system

Regards

Deirdre

-

<

<Chinese Medicine >

Friday, December 17, 2004 3:21 PM

Re: Severe shock and its effects help please

 

 

>

> Hii Sharon, & All,

>

> Sharon wrote:

> > I need some direction with a new patient. About 16 years ago

> > whilst pregnant her mother was murdered and she aborted. Since

> > which she was put on various drugs by the pschiatrist. She now

> > has problems with memory, but gets scared in lifts with strangers,

> > etc. and gets anxious very easily. Any ideas on the surface?

> > Sharon E. Nilsson - Spain

>

> Sudden shock / bereavement / grief / fear: ?KI Xu with ?LU Xu

>

> This woman needs expert counselling + much understanding and

> love. Clearly, the psychiatrist has not succeeded. Suggest

> changing to a different shrink + a psychotherapist trained in grief /

> shock counselling and Jungian methods.

>

> Add weekly AP for 1 month at:

> Spirit Points BL42-Pohu + BL52-Zhishi to boost Po and Zhi

> LU01 + GB25 [Mu Alarm Pts for LU and KI)

> LU09 + KI07 (Mother Pts to Tonify LU and KI)

>

> Homeopathic Arnica (C30), one single dose only for the shock /

> bereavement. Warn that there may be flashbacks and sudden

> panic for some days afterwards.

>

> After 1 week, add Nux vomica + Aconite (C6), one of each, bid, for

> 1 month for fear

>

> Reassess in 1 month

>

>

> Best regards,

>

> Email: <

[Guest guest]

Alon,

Clearly for 2000 years all observations in the clinic in Chinese

medicine have been stated within an overall tradition of practice,

under an 'umbrella' if you like. The question is not what modern

practitioners observe in the clinic, it is how they express what it is

they are seeing. Do we want an eclectic mish-mash of a medicine with

elements of homeopathy, naturopathy and Western medicine mixed in, or

do we want an honest appraisal of where Chinese medicine truly comes

from? Otherwise, the ongoing tradition of 2000 years will be lost to

the West.

 

Yes, many types of acupuncture have been designed in the West and

have been shown to be effective. However, these are not labeled as

'traditional Chinese acupuncture', they are called auriculotherapy,

scalp acupuncture, etc. This is not, however, true of Chinese herbal

medicine. This is why we should be careful not to mix up herbal

medicine and acupuncture as well.

 

 

On Dec 20, 2004, at 12:06 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

>

> Even though the translation may be fuzzy from Worsley to students,

> this

> treatment is a real " gift " to patients.

>

>

> >>>Also not all acupu treatments need to have a chinese root. There

> have been many useful developments in acup from the west, auricular

> for example. This goes for the healing crises as well. I for one do

> not care if one can document a chinese root if practitioners are

> seeing it in their practices using acup and CM herbs. It is as valid

> as if it came from any classic or other chinese source.Is our

> observation any less valid?

>

>

>

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

As I said in my last posting, I am not doubting clinical efficacy, I am

just questioning our use of terminology to communicate these clinical

events. If we cannot explain what it is we are doing clearly, it

reflects poorly on the profession.

 

 

On Dec 19, 2004, at 7:58 AM, Anne Crowley wrote:

 

>

> Zev

>

> Even though the translation may be fuzzy from Worsley to students,

> this

> treatment is a real " gift " to patients. (Lonny, as you know explains

> his

> experience in a lot of detail) I've seen it many times in my

> practice. 

> One example, my first patient on my own - 65 years old, smoked for 50

> years, fireman for 25 years, had two heart attacks (maybe three he

> said), was blown out of a building, lost his wife in the last 5 years

> (still heart broken).  After doing the Internal Demons, and External

> Demons, I did the AE treatment.  He came in and said he had gotten his

> appetite back for the first time in 6 months or a year, and what

> really

> got me was he said, " I feel 20 years younger. "   If any treatment can

> do

> that for someone, even for a day, I say it is a great gift to a

> patient.

>

> wrote:

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think it is important to understand that we have a large amount of western

medicine within our tradition as it is currently practiced in China. They

do not practice classical Chinese medicine there for the most part. On the

other hand, the Chinese incorporated many discoveries as they learned of

them from others. We should think of this when we talk about our definition

of . We also need to include language and concepts as we

understand them. Change is what made this medicine dynamic, limiting

ourselves to this creates stasis. For most of us, we do not speak ancient

Chinese altough it sure would be nice. Later

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

> " " <zrosenbe

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Severe shock and its effects help please

>Sun, 19 Dec 2004 11:10:49 -0800

>

>Alon,

> Clearly for 2000 years all observations in the clinic in Chinese

>medicine have been stated within an overall tradition of practice,

>under an 'umbrella' if you like. The question is not what modern

>practitioners observe in the clinic, it is how they express what it is

>they are seeing. Do we want an eclectic mish-mash of a medicine with

>elements of homeopathy, naturopathy and Western medicine mixed in, or

>do we want an honest appraisal of where Chinese medicine truly comes

>from? Otherwise, the ongoing tradition of 2000 years will be lost to

>the West.

>

> Yes, many types of acupuncture have been designed in the West and

>have been shown to be effective. However, these are not labeled as

>'traditional Chinese acupuncture', they are called auriculotherapy,

>scalp acupuncture, etc. This is not, however, true of Chinese herbal

>medicine. This is why we should be careful not to mix up herbal

>medicine and acupuncture as well.

>

>

>On Dec 20, 2004, at 12:06 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

>

> >

> > Even though the translation may be fuzzy from Worsley to students,

> > this

> > treatment is a real " gift " to patients.

> >

> >

> > >>>Also not all acupu treatments need to have a chinese root. There

> > have been many useful developments in acup from the west, auricular

> > for example. This goes for the healing crises as well. I for one do

> > not care if one can document a chinese root if practitioners are

> > seeing it in their practices using acup and CM herbs. It is as valid

> > as if it came from any classic or other chinese source.Is our

> > observation any less valid?

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

This is would all be well and good if we really grasped Chinese

medicine fully in the West. Since the vast majority of material on

Chinese medicine has not been translated into a Western language, we

cannot claim to change or modify the medicine until we get through the

stage of setting foundations, standards, and a suitably broad mastery

of the essential literature. Chinese medicine is vast. . . in this

discussion on healing crisis, we've touched on a little of the depth

and complexity of Chinese medicine in terms of the strategies listed in

the attack and purge school, Li-Zhu medicine, Shang Han Lun, Wen Bing,

and other approaches. I think we have little danger of stasis at this

point. I think there is much more possibility of misintepretation,

misunderstanding, misapplication and inappropriate mixing of conceptual

and clinical ideas at this point.

 

 

On Dec 19, 2004, at 2:34 PM, mike Bowser wrote:

 

>

> I think it is important to understand that we have a large amount of

> western

> medicine within our tradition as it is currently practiced in China. 

> They

> do not practice classical Chinese medicine there for the most part. 

> On the

> other hand, the Chinese incorporated many discoveries as they learned

> of

> them from others.  We should think of this when we talk about our

> definition

> of .  We also need to include language and concepts

> as we

> understand them.  Change is what made this medicine dynamic, limiting

> ourselves to this creates stasis.  For most of us, we do not speak

> ancient

> Chinese altough it sure would be nice.  Later

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Here we are entering a new arena.

 

What is and what isn't Chinese medicine?

 

And how do we define it?

 

You use the example of Voll acupuncture, which is not based on yin yang

or channel theory, but has developed into an autonomous system with its

own system of 'meridians' and points. Similarly with Nogier

auriculotherapy, which is based largely on embryology and the ear as a

micro-system of the body. Because they use different criteria and

diagnostic methods, in my opinion they are not Chinese medicine, but

spinoff systems that are like cousins to the main body of the medicine.

Just because they use a technology of Chinese medicine (needles)

doesn't mean they are Chinese medicine.

 

As I mentioned earlier, such innovations are rare with the

herbal/internal medicine tradition. They are much more common with

acupuncture. While pharmacological uses of herbs has increased, it

still has relatively little influence on how herbal prescriptions are

designed.

 

 

On Dec 20, 2004, at 2:51 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

>

> Z'ev my position i a little different. I take a view that clinical

> outcome is the only important parameter. So if new observations are

> developed in the west, which use the language of acup and CM

> regardless of modern influences (which as been the case through out CM

> history) they are welcomed and should be peer reviewed and

> experimented with. For example, Voll's work started from traditional

> acupuncture but clearly gone beyond and is strongly influenced by

> modern physiology and diagnostic lingo. While i have a limited

> experience with Voll's work i know many that say it is extremely

> effective (and many state it is much more effective than " traditional

> approaches " ). This is no different than any new development in CM

> history. I take a patient focused approach, if my use of Chinese

> herbal therapy or acupuncture is benefited (and the patients shows a

> better outcome) by integrating newer information i see this as a

> natural progression of what we call Chinese medicine. As far as

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Zev,

So when do you plan to start your school? I would agree with you

unfortunately it took you how many years to get to this level? If the

schools cannot get graduates to an acceptable level than they need to change

and focus on this material. As I recall there was little or no effort to go

into the classics in school. Maybe that has changed. Lastly, practitioners

will choose to define or describe ideas and concepts as they see fit and

this may include commonly used ideas as well. We cannot change this. Some

might call this progress. We cannot say that it is OK to use western

medical conditions at one time and critique a homeopathic term the next.

That is hypocritical. I have found more than a few references on here to

western conditions. Later

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

> " " <zrosenbe

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Severe shock and its effects help please

>Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:36:50 -0800

>

>This is would all be well and good if we really grasped Chinese

>medicine fully in the West. Since the vast majority of material on

>Chinese medicine has not been translated into a Western language, we

>cannot claim to change or modify the medicine until we get through the

>stage of setting foundations, standards, and a suitably broad mastery

>of the essential literature. Chinese medicine is vast. . . in this

>discussion on healing crisis, we've touched on a little of the depth

>and complexity of Chinese medicine in terms of the strategies listed in

>the attack and purge school, Li-Zhu medicine, Shang Han Lun, Wen Bing,

>and other approaches. I think we have little danger of stasis at this

>point. I think there is much more possibility of misintepretation,

>misunderstanding, misapplication and inappropriate mixing of conceptual

>and clinical ideas at this point.

>

>

>On Dec 19, 2004, at 2:34 PM, mike Bowser wrote:

>

> >

> > I think it is important to understand that we have a large amount of

> > western

> > medicine within our tradition as it is currently practiced in China. 

> > They

> > do not practice classical Chinese medicine there for the most part. 

> > On the

> > other hand, the Chinese incorporated many discoveries as they learned

> > of

> > them from others.  We should think of this when we talk about our

> > definition

> > of .  We also need to include language and concepts

> > as we

> > understand them.  Change is what made this medicine dynamic, limiting

> > ourselves to this creates stasis.  For most of us, we do not speak

> > ancient

> > Chinese altough it sure would be nice.  Later

> > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think that Chinese medicine is changing and we need to accept this or risk

becoming static. As new discoveries are found we need to allow for change.

That is what makes this fresh and alive. How do we know that Voll's ideas

are not reflective of meridians (dislike word). We may be surprised by the

research that is showing some very important findings. I hope we are not

interested in having our heads in the sand while others determine our future

in mainstream medicine, we have a lot of people to help.

 

Now the Chinese idea of auricular map could be questioned here as well and

what about herbal concentrates?

 

If we are to question too much and limit our perceptions we run the risk of

loosing a rather large % of our profession. I am referring to our Chinese

colleagues. They are trained as western-eastern medical providers and

provide for a more integrated look at health. We have not really discussed

the fact that they do not fit into the mold of a classical practitioner.

 

My question to ourselves is, are we willing to move in the same direction

(integration) that they are or not?

 

This is a broad question and we can all find limitations and conditions but

as a generality do we want this?

 

If not, are we willing to let this group align itself with the medical

profession?

 

The answers to this should be important for us to consider. Later

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

> " " <zrosenbe

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Severe shock and its effects help please

>Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:48:34 -0800

>

>Here we are entering a new arena.

>

>What is and what isn't Chinese medicine?

>

>And how do we define it?

>

>You use the example of Voll acupuncture, which is not based on yin yang

>or channel theory, but has developed into an autonomous system with its

>own system of 'meridians' and points. Similarly with Nogier

>auriculotherapy, which is based largely on embryology and the ear as a

>micro-system of the body. Because they use different criteria and

>diagnostic methods, in my opinion they are not Chinese medicine, but

>spinoff systems that are like cousins to the main body of the medicine.

> Just because they use a technology of Chinese medicine (needles)

>doesn't mean they are Chinese medicine.

>

>As I mentioned earlier, such innovations are rare with the

>herbal/internal medicine tradition. They are much more common with

>acupuncture. While pharmacological uses of herbs has increased, it

>still has relatively little influence on how herbal prescriptions are

>designed.

>

>

>On Dec 20, 2004, at 2:51 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

>

> >

> > Z'ev my position i a little different. I take a view that clinical

> > outcome is the only important parameter. So if new observations are

> > developed in the west, which use the language of acup and CM

> > regardless of modern influences (which as been the case through out CM

> > history) they are welcomed and should be peer reviewed and

> > experimented with. For example, Voll's work started from traditional

> > acupuncture but clearly gone beyond and is strongly influenced by

> > modern physiology and diagnostic lingo. While i have a limited

> > experience with Voll's work i know many that say it is extremely

> > effective (and many state it is much more effective than " traditional

> > approaches " ). This is no different than any new development in CM

> > history. I take a patient focused approach, if my use of Chinese

> > herbal therapy or acupuncture is benefited (and the patients shows a

> > better outcome) by integrating newer information i see this as a

> > natural progression of what we call Chinese medicine. As far as

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Okay so define Chinese medicine.

 

 

 

[zrosenbe]

Monday, 20 December 2004 10:49 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Severe shock and its effects help please

 

 

Here we are entering a new arena.

 

What is and what isn't Chinese medicine?

 

And how do we define it?

 

You use the example of Voll acupuncture, which is not based on yin yang

or channel theory, but has developed into an autonomous system with its

own system of 'meridians' and points. Similarly with Nogier

auriculotherapy, which is based largely on embryology and the ear as a

micro-system of the body. Because they use different criteria and

diagnostic methods, in my opinion they are not Chinese medicine, but

spinoff systems that are like cousins to the main body of the medicine.

Just because they use a technology of Chinese medicine (needles)

doesn't mean they are Chinese medicine.

 

As I mentioned earlier, such innovations are rare with the

herbal/internal medicine tradition. They are much more common with

acupuncture. While pharmacological uses of herbs has increased, it

still has relatively little influence on how herbal prescriptions are

designed.

 

On Dec 20, 2004, at 2:51 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

>

> Z'ev my position i a little different. I take a view that clinical

> outcome is the only important parameter. So if new observations are

> developed in the west, which use the language of acup and CM

> regardless of modern influences (which as been the case through out CM

> history) they are welcomed and should be peer reviewed and

> experimented with. For example, Voll's work started from traditional

> acupuncture but clearly gone beyond and is strongly influenced by

> modern physiology and diagnostic lingo. While i have a limited

> experience with Voll's work i know many that say it is extremely

> effective (and many state it is much more effective than " traditional

> approaches " ). This is no different than any new development in CM

> history. I take a patient focused approach, if my use of Chinese

> herbal therapy or acupuncture is benefited (and the patients shows a

> better outcome) by integrating newer information i see this as a

> natural progression of what we call Chinese medicine. As far as

>

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Even though the translation may be fuzzy from Worsley to students, this

treatment is a real " gift " to patients.

 

 

>>>Also not all acupu treatments need to have a chinese root. There have been

many useful developments in acup from the west, auricular for example. This goes

for the healing crises as well. I for one do not care if one can document a

chinese root if practitioners are seeing it in their practices using acup and CM

herbs. It is as valid as if it came from any classic or other chinese source.Is

our observation any less valid?

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Do we want an eclectic mish-mash of a medicine with

elements of homeopathy, naturopathy and Western medicine mixed in, or

do we want an honest appraisal of where Chinese medicine truly comes

from? Otherwise, the ongoing tradition of 2000 years will be lost to

the West.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Z'ev my position i a little different. I take a view that clinical outcome is

the only important parameter. So if new observations are developed in the west,

which use the language of acup and CM regardless of modern influences (which as

been the case through out CM history) they are welcomed and should be peer

reviewed and experimented with. For example, Voll's work started from

traditional acupuncture but clearly gone beyond and is strongly influenced by

modern physiology and diagnostic lingo. While i have a limited experience with

Voll's work i know many that say it is extremely effective (and many state it is

much more effective than " traditional approaches " ). This is no different than

any new development in CM history. I take a patient focused approach, if my use

of Chinese herbal therapy or acupuncture is benefited (and the patients shows a

better outcome) by integrating newer information i see this as a natural

progression of what we call Chinese medicine. As far as healing crises, CM is by

enlarge allopathic, but the concepts of treating toxins with toxins, yang with

yang, yin with yin are homeopathic and thus such ideas are not outside CM

thinking. Certainly the movement of pathogenic factors via stages as seen in SHL

and wen bing are quite similar to homotoxicology six levels. Yes the stages are

more clearly explained with modern homotoxicology but the general ideas are

quite similar (and some believe that the ideas of homotoxicology actually came

from SHL). If highly diluted medications work than this can be viewed as natural

progression of SHL and wen bing and should be integrated. So-called authenticity

can be quite limiting. I agree that just MSU is dangerous but not all newer

developments are in this category and having a Chinese source of any idea does

not mean it is more than just MSU, especially when you read some of the rational

beyond ideas for treatment from the case histories in Chinese medical

literature. More often than not they are based on a single case history which

make them of limited value.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I can't help but think that the meridians are part of the internal flow of

energy... the Indians focused on the Charkas, external energy flow ???,...

power therapies now use the meridians and acu points and charkas in ways

that are not described in the texts translated into English that I have

studied.

 

If such pathways are there, understanding them in principle and how to

utilise them to attain or maintain health in practice is not a finished

book. And even if it were, the health challenges today are quite different

to those found at different times over the last 2,000 years. We would need

to adapt the principles to the modern day conditions, eg moving from air con

to hot humid climates via planes or instantly via door ways, just didn't

happen 2,000 years ago.

 

I don't think we become static, I think that people, both practitioners

utilising these power therapies and patients mastering them move

exponentially past us.

 

I suppose we all have patients for whom we do the work, ie get rid of the

incontinence etc, and then there are other patients, who don't want us to

'fix' it they want us to facilitate their learning and ability to directly

manage the soft and hardware of their bodymindspirit.

 

I suspect there will be places for those who want to have treatment done for

them and also places for those who want to learn to master their BMS. And

maybe some of us practitioners will do both these things.

 

Whilst respecting the roots of CM, one must still attend to the flowers of

the tree, and also the transplanted seedlings of the tree found is so many

different climates.

 

Best wishes,

 

 

mike Bowser [naturaldoc1]

Monday, 20 December 2004 11:13 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Severe shock and its effects help please

 

 

 

I think that Chinese medicine is changing and we need to accept this or

risk

becoming static. As new discoveries are found we need to allow for

change.

That is what makes this fresh and alive. How do we know that Voll's ideas

are not reflective of meridians (dislike word). We may be surprised by

the

research that is showing some very important findings. I hope we are not

interested in having our heads in the sand while others determine our

future

in mainstream medicine, we have a lot of people to help.

 

Now the Chinese idea of auricular map could be questioned here as well and

what about herbal concentrates?

 

If we are to question too much and limit our perceptions we run the risk

of

loosing a rather large % of our profession. I am referring to our Chinese

colleagues. They are trained as western-eastern medical providers and

provide for a more integrated look at health. We have not really

discussed

the fact that they do not fit into the mold of a classical practitioner.

 

My question to ourselves is, are we willing to move in the same direction

(integration) that they are or not?

 

This is a broad question and we can all find limitations and conditions

but

as a generality do we want this?

 

If not, are we willing to let this group align itself with the medical

profession?

 

The answers to this should be important for us to consider. Later

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

> " " <zrosenbe

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Severe shock and its effects help please

>Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:48:34 -0800

>

>Here we are entering a new arena.

>

>What is and what isn't Chinese medicine?

>

>And how do we define it?

>

>You use the example of Voll acupuncture, which is not based on yin yang

>or channel theory, but has developed into an autonomous system with its

>own system of 'meridians' and points. Similarly with Nogier

>auriculotherapy, which is based largely on embryology and the ear as a

>micro-system of the body. Because they use different criteria and

>diagnostic methods, in my opinion they are not Chinese medicine, but

>spinoff systems that are like cousins to the main body of the medicine.

> Just because they use a technology of Chinese medicine (needles)

>doesn't mean they are Chinese medicine.

>

>As I mentioned earlier, such innovations are rare with the

>herbal/internal medicine tradition. They are much more common with

>acupuncture. While pharmacological uses of herbs has increased, it

>still has relatively little influence on how herbal prescriptions are

>designed.

>

>

>On Dec 20, 2004, at 2:51 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

>

> >

> > Z'ev my position i a little different. I take a view that clinical

> > outcome is the only important parameter. So if new observations are

> > developed in the west, which use the language of acup and CM

> > regardless of modern influences (which as been the case through out CM

> > history) they are welcomed and should be peer reviewed and

> > experimented with. For example, Voll's work started from traditional

> > acupuncture but clearly gone beyond and is strongly influenced by

> > modern physiology and diagnostic lingo. While i have a limited

> > experience with Voll's work i know many that say it is extremely

> > effective (and many state it is much more effective than " traditional

> > approaches " ). This is no different than any new development in CM

> > history. I take a patient focused approach, if my use of Chinese

> > herbal therapy or acupuncture is benefited (and the patients shows a

> > better outcome) by integrating newer information i see this as a

> > natural progression of what we call Chinese medicine. As far as

> >

[Guest guest]

That is for us as a profession, the question. I wouldn't venture to

answer by myself.

 

 

On Dec 19, 2004, at 11:21 PM, Sharon wrote:

 

> Okay so define Chinese medicine.

>

>

>

>