Fire Needles and Needle Moxa(reply to Matt)

November 2, 2004

Hi Matt,

If you read the post I sent to Pam down below you will notice I

wrote twice that I use disposable needles.

The reason steam is preferred is that you are able to sterilise

gloves, plastic, textiles, etc, without damaging them, as would

inevitably happen if you put them on a fire, that is not the case

with steel needles. Again, I am not advocating the method, I

don't use this method, this discussion was about the different

methods of sterilisation and their validity. It is not necessary

to use this method BECAUSE there are low cost disposable needles

readily available. The only situation I can envisage that would

justify using this method(flame, or, even, as Atillio said:

peeing), would be of great difficulty or impossibility of having

access to disposable, sterilised needles.

It is easy to find research on the use of steam to sterilise

needles, the company that makes them would have an interest in

it, to begin with. but a flame is not readily marketable, you

don't have to buy a machine for that, so, not much interest in

research there. Unless it was for the love of science, maybe.

Remember, cell walls are organic material, not to mention the DNA

within it, I saw burn victims with third degree burns; sometimes

there's barely the bone left on a hand, all the muscles,

ligaments, cells...all gone!

I don't think that is difficult to grasp, the power of fire. I

really don't get this dependence on machines for everything, they

are just elaborations of simple techniques, like moxa, you can

invent an infra-red apparatus, or a laser, or use...moxibustion!

Marcos

--- Matt Bauer <acu.guy escreveu:

Marcos,

>Heating a needle over an open flame until it is red hot is

certainly NOT better than an autoclave. The reason pressurized

steam is recognized by experts as the preferred method of

sterilization is its ability to penetrate the cell walls of

microorganisms. I don't care how hot you heat something, unless

you can penetrate the cell walls you run the risk of the

microorganism surviving. Of course, if you can show any research

that describes how heating needles red-hot over an open flame

works better, I will stand corrected. In the mean time - please

only use disposable needles on your patients. - Matt Bauer

-

marcos

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, October 31, 2004 6:45 AM

RE: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa

Hello Atillio,

I got a little tired of this thread, but your remark that

" peeing " on the needle is as good as autoclave, flame, etc,

struck me as so " scientifically objective " , that I had second

thoughts on the matter.

I really doubt you(or anyone) will find bacteria, virus or

WHATEVER alive on a needle after it has been heated red-hot

over

a flame.

That's better than autoclave(not to mention pee!).

Of course, even better is a NEW sterilised(but by which

method?)

needle(disposable).

regards,

Marcos

" Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto>

Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 am

RE: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa

I saw Jet Lee put a woman to sleep by inserting a needle into

her neck.

Doesn't mean I'm gonna do it, does it?

Even in China, Fire needles are autoclaved then heated before

insertion. And

no, putting a naked flame to a fire needle is no better than

using

autoclave. You might aswell pee on the needle as urine acts as

a

disinfectant.

Attilio

marcos [ishk18]

25 October 2004 06:01

Chinese Medicine

Re: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa

Hi Pam,

Good that you asked that, lets get the record straight; I did

not

say I used 'fire sterilised needles'(for the record, I use

disposable, throw-away after use!), I was commenting on the

fact

that a chinese film brought to my attention that it was(and

possibly still is) done in rural China. By the way, you say

that

'it is beyond comprehension' to consider such, did you really

read what Attilio wrote, that autoclave DOESN'T do a thorough

job? and that a visit to a DENTIST is fraught with perils? And

that a FLAME(yes, innocent looking fire!)can and does

sterilize,

when it doesnt melt or burn what is put in it? I am not

advocating fire(I prefer disposable anyway), but am pointing

out

that it may be BETTER than autoclave, etc, in the case of FIRE

NEEDLES.

And last but not least: yes we have laws that cover these

things

quite well, don't worry:-)

Marcos

--- Pam Price <needledoc@s...> escreveu:

Marco and all, it is beyond comprehension that a licensed

acupuncturist

would even Consider using fire to sterilize a needle. Where do

you live,

Marco? There are laws that govern this quite well. Stick with

the

law or get

your license revoked! Needles are NOT to be reused for any

reason.

Pam Price

>

> Of course a naked flame is not sufficient to sterilise any

acupuncture

> needle. Even if you saw it in a epic martial arts film!

>

> Autoclaving, as Phil pointed out, cannot kill off all

bacteria,

so why do

> you think a naked flame can?

>

> Attilio

_____

Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora!

http://br.acesso./

November 2, 2004

Actually, I really wonder how clean the pre sterilised needles are that come

from China.

I keep noticing that some patients have reactions to the needles, i.e. small

pronounced lumps, bruising, pain. I think the quality of the metal aswell as

how finished the sharp tip of the needles are, are additional factors to

these problems.

Attilio

marcos [ishk18]

02 November 2004 04:27

Chinese Medicine

Re: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa(reply to Matt)