Guest guest Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Hi, I saw a Giovanni Maciocia lecture last year in San Diego. He made the statement that he felt Lung Qi stagnation was common and often mistaken for Liver Qi stagnation.The lecture topic was the Liver so this was all that was mentioned on the subject.There was no time for questions but I have wondered about the statement.My TCM training did not include this pattern. Is anyone familiar with this pattern? If so could you kindly fill me in on the signs that could differentiate it from LV Qi stag. What would the emotions look like.What point PX would be in order? What types of herbal PX would you look too? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Hi, Interesting. My friend, who sees our tuina/qigong practitioner has both. It was determined by simply palpating the body and observing the stagnation. It was pretty obvious. She has had had asthma and has been using western drugs of various sorts for 18 years. She has has tuina/qigong for about two months and has been off all drugs now for a little over two weeks. The best treatment for her so far has been tuina work on the abdominal area. Regards, Rich Chinese Medicine , " cullen78704 " <cullen78704> wrote: > > > Hi, I saw a Giovanni Maciocia lecture last year in San Diego. He > made the statement that he felt Lung Qi stagnation was common and > often mistaken for Liver Qi stagnation.The lecture topic was the Liver > so this was all that was mentioned on the subject.There was no time > for questions but I have wondered about the statement.My TCM training > did not include this pattern. Is anyone familiar with this pattern? If > so could you kindly fill me in on the signs that could differentiate > it from LV Qi stag. What would the emotions look like.What point PX > would be in order? What types of herbal PX would you look too? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 I have definitely seen this. I think that two factors make is more likely: 1. The use of qi tonic herbs that go the lungs. 2. A history of smoking Generally people feel tightness around their chest and upper back and slightly restricted breathing and a bit of an uptight feeling emotionally. I think the emotions are similar to liver qi stagnation, but less snarky. A feeling of wanting to heavy sigh is a good indicator. I have always thought of this more as " liver invading the lungs " , but maybe lung qi stagnation is a more fitting description. Laura Chinese Medicine , " Rich " <rfinkelstein@a...> wrote: > > > Hi, > > Interesting. My friend, who sees our tuina/qigong practitioner has > both. It was determined by simply palpating the body and observing the > stagnation. It was pretty obvious. She has had had asthma and has been > using western drugs of various sorts for 18 years. She has has > tuina/qigong for about two months and has been off all drugs now for a > little over two weeks. The best treatment for her so far has been > tuina work on the abdominal area. > > Regards, > Rich > > Chinese Medicine , " cullen78704 " > <cullen78704> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, I saw a Giovanni Maciocia lecture last year in San Diego. He > > made the statement that he felt Lung Qi stagnation was common and > > often mistaken for Liver Qi stagnation.The lecture topic was the Liver > > so this was all that was mentioned on the subject.There was no time > > for questions but I have wondered about the statement.My TCM training > > did not include this pattern. Is anyone familiar with this pattern? If > > so could you kindly fill me in on the signs that could differentiate > > it from LV Qi stag. What would the emotions look like.What point PX > > would be in order? What types of herbal PX would you look too? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 The pattern is mentioned on pg. 903 in Giovanni's " Diagnosis in Chinese Medicine " . The symptoms and signs Giovanni list include " a feeling or lump in the throat, difficulty swallowing, a feeling of oppression or distention of the chest, slight breathlessness, sighing, sadness, slight anxiety, depression " . I was unable to find the pattern " lung qi stagnation " in my Chinese medical dictionaries or internal medicine texts, however I was able to find these symptoms listed under several patterns listed in Chinese medical dictionaries or internal medicine texts as fei bi/lung impediment (oppression and vexation in the chest), or mei he qi/plum pit qi (sensation of a foreign body in the throat with difficult swallowing). There is also a pattern in the Su Wen called jin yu or metal depression, that includes some of these symptoms, later discussed in the Chi shui xuan zhu/Mysterious Pearl of Red Water as lung depression (mental depression, chest oppression). If anyone else has sources for lung qi stagnation, I would be interested in knowing. On Oct 29, 2004, at 1:13 PM, cullen78704 wrote: > > > Hi, I saw a Giovanni Maciocia lecture last year in San Diego. He > made the statement that he felt Lung Qi stagnation was common and > often mistaken for Liver Qi stagnation.The lecture topic was the Liver > so this was all that was mentioned on the subject.There was no time > for questions but I have wondered about the statement.My TCM training > did not include this pattern. Is anyone familiar with this pattern? If > so could you kindly fill me in on the signs that could differentiate > it from LV Qi stag. What would the emotions look like.What point PX > would be in order? What types of herbal PX would you look too? Thanks > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Hi All, To my knowledge, Maciocia does not differentiate between stagnation (zhi4) and depression (yu4), he simplifies it all under the idea of stagnation as is the norm outside Wiseman ie. Liver qi stagnation rather that the actual translation of liver depression qi stagnation. So, when Maciocia says Lung qi stagnation it is not possible to know if he is talking about lung depression or an actual pattern of " lung qi stagnation " . Lung qi stagnation does not exist in Wiseman terminology as far as I can find, however, lung qi depression and impeded lung qi do exist as common lung patterns. If one groups impeded qi, depressed qi and qi stagnation all into stagnation of qi, one ends up clouding the differences and makes it difficult to reference such a simplified term. Lung qi can become depressed and may also counter-flow. To my knowledge counter-flow only occurs after qi is depressed.ie. qi movement is obstructed or slows down......then counter-flows/rebels in a pathological direction. It is impossible for me to say for sure; but I would guess that " Lung qi stagnation " refers to depression of the qi function of the lung and since Maciocia chooses not to translate depression at all, it is impossible to tell for sure if he is talking about the common patterns of lung qi depression or impeded lung qi or some different pattern called " lung qi stagnation " . As Ze'v demonstrated below, the only way to get a better idea of what Maciocia is referring too (if he does not give the Chinese or pinyin for this pattern) is to compare the signs of symptoms of each pattern and see if they are talking about the same thing. I hope this makes some sense. Best Wishes, Steve PS - This is a perfect example of the need to have a terminology that can be traced to the Chinese so such conflicts can be sorted out. On 30/10/2004, at 10:28 AM, wrote: > > The pattern is mentioned on pg. 903 in Giovanni's " Diagnosis in Chinese > Medicine " . The symptoms and signs Giovanni list include " a feeling or > lump in the throat, difficulty swallowing, a feeling of oppression or > distention of the chest, slight breathlessness, sighing, sadness, > slight anxiety, depression " . I was unable to find the pattern " lung > qi stagnation " in my Chinese medical dictionaries or internal medicine > texts, however I was able to find these symptoms listed under several > patterns listed in Chinese medical dictionaries or internal medicine > texts as fei bi/lung impediment (oppression and vexation in the chest), > or mei he qi/plum pit qi (sensation of a foreign body in the throat > with difficult swallowing). There is also a pattern in the Su Wen > called jin yu or metal depression, that includes some of these > symptoms, later discussed in the Chi shui xuan zhu/Mysterious Pearl of > Red Water as lung depression (mental depression, chest oppression). > > If anyone else has sources for lung qi stagnation, I would be > interested in knowing. > > > > > On Oct 29, 2004, at 1:13 PM, cullen78704 wrote: > >> >> >> Hi, I saw a Giovanni Maciocia lecture last year in San Diego. He >> made the statement that he felt Lung Qi stagnation was common and >> often mistaken for Liver Qi stagnation.The lecture topic was the >> Liver >> so this was all that was mentioned on the subject.There was no time >> for questions but I have wondered about the statement.My TCM training >> did not include this pattern. Is anyone familiar with this pattern? >> If >> so could you kindly fill me in on the signs that could differentiate >> it from LV Qi stag. What would the emotions look like.What point PX >> would be in order? What types of herbal PX would you look too? >> Thanks >> >> > > > > > > Dr. Steven J Slater Practitioner and Acupuncturist Mobile: 0437 033 500 chinese_medicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 By and large for any Element to register significant disharmony, it must have be under aggression by the suppressing element on the Ko bond. This is the " destroyer evil " of old Chi Po. In that sense LU stagnation must be very nearly a HT Yin Deficiency. By the same token, a LV Stagnation can be very often a LU stagnation. Clinically it is rare to see a LU stagnation which is also not a HT Yin Deficiency. Also rare to see a LV stagnation which is also not a LU Yin Deficiency. LU again should not be called a stagnation, because the energy does pile up but does not fester, aggregate as with LV. LU may be said to " congest " , though this too is an unfortunate term. I like to visualize LU qi as " rusted " , with the Metal's edge blunted. Markers? LU rusted will have mainly, markers of a Deficient HT Yin. LV stagnated will have mainly, markers of a rusted LU Yin. Best diagnostic parameter is on the abdomen. For LU find any induration on R abdomen from subcostal to inguinal ligament. For LV find any induration on L abdomen from subcostal to inguinal ligament. Another neat marker for LU is a tender LU 1 and 2. If R, treat only ipsilateral pts. If L, treat only L pts. Palpate intercostals at costosternal junction. 2, 3, 4 or 5 space tender on R signifies LU problem. 2, 3, 4 or 5 space tender on L signifies HT problem. 2, 3, 4 or 5 space tender on R and L signifies bronchial problem. As a symptom a spasmodic dry cough with scanty white sputum is hallmark LU Yin Deficient. As a symptom a tender spot on lower 3 ribs at 45 degree R of and above to navel is hallmark GB and therefore LV Deficient. To be sure, pop seeds onto GB Metal and Water points and press. If GB-LV, the tender spot on ribs will vanish. In summary, if hunting for a LU condition, look either to a progenitor at HT, or a successor at LV. If a HT-LU combination, treat only HT. If a LU-LV combination, treat only LU. If a HT-LU combination is treated by sustaining LU, this restrains LV which further makes HT weak, worsening the condition. If a LU-LV combination is treated by sustaining LV, this restrains ST which further makes LU weak, worsening the condition. To be fair, this sounds clever in print but can be hairy in practice. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Hi Dr. Keikobad, This is a very intersting way to look at it. When I did some abdominal bodywork on my friend who has the trouble breathing, it was not complicated at all. I just palpated for areas of hardness and pain and gently " moved' the qi. I do not go too near the heart - since I feel that this is for my friend to do. Afterwards, my friend said that it was the first time she could take a deep breath in 18 years. Something was released. In retrosprect, it is interesting to create images as you do to understand what may be happening. But sometimes I feel it is more for my own " needs " than my friends, who is quite content with just being massaged and enjoying the fact that she can breath freely again. :-) Thanks for a marvelous posting. I printed it out to show my friend who is also a certified Shiatsu bodyworker. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Hi Dr. Holmes Keikobad, I'm always curious about where you were trained and in what tradition because your ideas are so unique from anything I've been exposed to. Its amazing how many different traditions there are for acupuncture. I can generally pick up on whether someone has a Japanese or 5 Element background, but I am not familiar with your approach. It seems to be a very interesting approach, so I'd like to know how I can learn more. Laura Chinese Medicine , " homi kaikobad " <aryaone@e...> wrote: > By and large for any Element to register significant disharmony, it must > have be under aggression by the suppressing element on the Ko bond. > > This is the " destroyer evil " of old Chi Po. > > In that sense LU stagnation must be very nearly a HT Yin Deficiency. > By the same token, a LV Stagnation can be very often a LU stagnation. > > Clinically it is rare to see a LU stagnation which is also not a HT Yin > Deficiency. > Also rare to see a LV stagnation which is also not a LU Yin Deficiency. > > LU again should not be called a stagnation, because the energy does pile up > but does not fester, aggregate as with LV. > > LU may be said to " congest " , though this too is an unfortunate term. > > I like to visualize LU qi as " rusted " , with the Metal's edge blunted. > > Markers? > > LU rusted will have mainly, markers of a Deficient HT Yin. > LV stagnated will have mainly, markers of a rusted LU Yin. > > Best diagnostic parameter is on the abdomen. > For LU find any induration on R abdomen from subcostal to inguinal ligament. > For LV find any induration on L abdomen from subcostal to inguinal ligament. > > Another neat marker for LU is a tender LU 1 and 2. If R, treat only > ipsilateral > pts. If L, treat only L pts. > > Palpate intercostals at costosternal junction. > 2, 3, 4 or 5 space tender on R signifies LU problem. > 2, 3, 4 or 5 space tender on L signifies HT problem. > 2, 3, 4 or 5 space tender on R and L signifies bronchial problem. > > As a symptom a spasmodic dry cough with scanty white sputum is hallmark > LU Yin Deficient. > > As a symptom a tender spot on lower 3 ribs at 45 degree R of and above > to navel is hallmark GB and therefore LV Deficient. > > To be sure, pop seeds onto GB Metal and Water points and press. > If GB-LV, the tender spot on ribs will vanish. > > In summary, if hunting for a LU condition, look either to a progenitor at > HT, > or a successor at LV. > > If a HT-LU combination, treat only HT. > If a LU-LV combination, treat only LU. > > If a HT-LU combination is treated by sustaining LU, this restrains LV > which further makes HT weak, worsening the condition. > > If a LU-LV combination is treated by sustaining LV, this restrains ST > which further makes LU weak, worsening the condition. > > To be fair, this sounds clever in print but can be hairy in practice. > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad > MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ > www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. > NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Hi Laura, > Generally people feel tightness around their chest and upper back and > slightly restricted breathing and a bit of an uptight feeling > emotionally. I think the emotions are similar to liver qi > stagnation, but less snarky. A feeling of wanting to heavy sigh is a > good indicator. I have always thought of this more as " liver > invading the lungs " , but maybe lung qi stagnation is a more fitting > description. > > Laura > Yes, when I do tuina/qigong, I can feel all of the emotions. For me, it all starts in the Heart Shen. The " Spirit " is speaking. There is always Po and Hun interacting in their own way. Sometimes, the flow from the middle to the upper will come to a restful flow - a very smooth and even wave of energy. By gently moving the energy in the abdomen, it is possible to feel the Po and Hun releasing, as the Shen transforms itself into something new. In the case of my friend, who is a professionl Shiatsu bodyworker and has had asthma for 18 years, she felt like she could " breathe " again. Was this physical, spiritual, metaphorical? No matter. She could breathe. It is interesting to observe the Shen, Po, Hun, Zhi, and Yi as they interact and " create " the body. When it is ready to change - it will. Sometimes it never happens. Sometimes a simple touch is all that is needed. I never know. :-) Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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