Guest guest Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Hi Attilio I appreciate your comments, but I must respectfully disagree I don't think any one art is superior to the other in total Different arts evolved to serve different purposes, that is the glory of TCM In WM, everything is compartmentalized, everyone looks for the magic bullet to fix everything TCM has different modalities to treat different conditions, sometimes they overlap Acupuncture is great for a blockage, or to promote balance, but it will not always take care of a fixated segment Herbs may sometimes have a greater effect on the body than Acupuncture Sometimes a patient is deconditioned and needs to exercise, all the acu or tuina in the world is not going to help someone who doesn't want to get up off the couch and stop eating twinkies Different techniques for different needs There should always be options doug _____ Attilio D'Alberto [attiliodalberto] Monday, October 18, 2004 9:54 AM Chinese Medicine RE: fused cervical vertabrae Hi Rich, No I don't think all medicine is to do with blockages at all, this is a narrow way of TCM thinking. I think the correct and more appropriate term you should use is balance not blockage. As for Tuina versus acupuncture, well...Didn't acupuncture rise out of Tuina or acupressure? If so, then why did it develop? Not because people enjoyed sticking metal objects into others but rather because its more effective. As I said before, having just had a large course of Tuina I found its treatment effect was short lived. A friend of mine, a Tuina/massage expert also have a large amount of Tuina from a experienced and respected masseur for a long term back problem. It was not effective. Therefore, I still agree that acupuncture and herbs are superior to Tuina and acupressure. In my TCM degree, we were taught the 9 needles and when to use them. So I disagree with Tom Tam that it is a lost field. I believe that many of the 9 needles are brutal and impractical in today's world. Also modern WM surgical techniques and sterilisation requirements have contributed to the declined use of some of the 9 needles. You can still but them, in framed sets in China. I'm sure you can but the fire needles from a supplier in your area. Although you may have to check how your insurance will cover it. Attilio Rich [rfinkelstein] 18 October 2004 15:05 Chinese Medicine Re: fused cervical vertabrae Hi Attilio, Thanks for jumping in with your comments. Here are some of my thoughts: > > Yes, of course acupuncture and herbs can treat blockages, even >better than Tuina, I believe. Yes, I agree. I think all " medicine " is treating blockages in one way or another. Either they are creating or increasing " flow " (by removing blockages or introducing qi), or they are creating blockages in order to suppress flow (i.e. suppress symptoms) or slow down the flow of qi. In either case, I believe all medicine of all cultures and types essentially works in the same way. Whether acupunture or herbs is better than tuina, is probably based upon one's own experiences. First of all, I prefer tuina combined with medical qigong because I have found that bodywork at the physical level without the " clearing " aspect of medical qigong, leaves too much " residual " negative energy in the body that needs to be " cleaned out " . This was has been made clear to me many times, most recently with a friend who was having a difficult time breathing. I have probably more than three dozen friends and acquaintences who have previously tried acupuncture and herbs on a variety of chronic ailments who are now using tuina/qigong with success. If you were ask each one of them which is better, they would choose the tuina/qigong model. So people's preferences are based upon their own individual experiences and preferences. For me, it is difficult to say which is " best " , though each has its strengths and weaknesses. I prefer Tui na/qigong for its simplicity and the ability for anyone to do it on themselves as a health maintenance/preventative practice. > I personally saw the use of fire needles inserted directly into the >spine for various spinal disorders. The needle is inserted into the >vertebrae and the then twisted around the needle whilst rotating the >needle causing the spine to re-align itself. Very effective, >although fire needles may not be an option in the west. Tom Tam, who is schooled in all of these modalities writes in his book " Tom Tam Healing System " : " Acupuncture is easy and effective but sometimes the blockage is large, or the tissues are already stuck against the bone and are calcified, fibrous, or made up of scar tissue. In this case the needle will have difficulty opening up the blockage. This is one reason why acupunture doesn't always work. Ancient traditional acupunture had a method called the nine needles technique, but this nine-needle technique was lost in China. This approach uses the needles of different shapes and sizes. ... The needle that is commonly used is a thin needle, which has a reduced length. Many times when a blockage is too large and the needle is too small, positive results then are low. In America, it is nearly impossible to find anyone that would use the other types of the nine-needle method for stimulation. " He goes on to say: " My healing system is developed from Tui Na. Tui Na is the use of one's hands to connect with the patient. In this connection of touch, I find the blockages, which relate with the organs and the cause of the Chi imbalance. ... With Tui Na therapy, it is easy to find the blockage and it has a high success rate in diagnosing problems. ... When people come to see me for a healing, many of them have had problems for a long time. Long term blockages are big or deep. With long term blockages we must use Tui Na a deep technique to open them. Another technique used to open long term blockages is the hook needle and fire needle. The hook needle and fire needle are from the nine needle techniques. These techniques need special training and a license as an acupunturist. Tui Na is easy to learn and easy to practice. It prevents disease and increases longevity. Tui Na is the best technique. In my philosophjy, when the Chi in body is free to circulate, then there is health. " Tom Tam does discuss hooks and fire needles as your suggested in your posting, but he also notes that this kind of treatment may be rare in the U.S. I do not know if this is true or not. I have never seen anyone practice it. The questions then become: 1) Is Tom Tam correct in suggesting that nine-needles techniques are useful (or even required) to treat deep blockages that one might find in the body - including the spine? This is apparently how your cervical area was treated. 2) If he is correct, are TCM students being trained in this technique and is it available here in the U.S? 3) If not, what is the alternative since the blockage (stagnation) must be dealt with in order to bring the client/patient to good health? Is it chiropractic work? Tui Na/Qigong? Rolfing? Does one have to go to China for this type of acupuncture treatment? The primary question is how does one treat the deep blockages that Tom Tam refers to and I have observed so many times that are associated with chronic illnesses. The issue that I am exploring is how does the typcial, TCM trained student (whether the training is in acupuncture, herbals, or tui na/qigong) deal with the issue. I know how tuina/qigong deals with it. You posting has introduced me to fire needles and nine-needles techniques (which I had preciously been unaware of) but is this treatment available in the U.S. and elsewhere outside of China? What does a patient do if nine-needles is not available? Thanks for any responses, Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 I am very careful treating along the Du Usually I needle with stim through the paraspinal muscles - in the Jiaji Along the area of pain - not across I never cup acute inflammation - only chronic stagnation I use a small cup and stroke right along the paraspinal tissues Good luck Doug _____ heylaurag [heylaurag] Sunday, October 17, 2004 7:50 PM Chinese Medicine Re: fused cervical vertabrae Hi Doug, What points would you hook up for electrical stim? UB 10 and just below the area of pain? The Du? Huatoujiaji? She is swollen all around her neck. So I am a little nervous about treating directing into the area. Do you cup the UB channel or closer to the spine? Laura Chinese Medicine , " Doug Briggs " <docacu@c...> wrote: > > As you said, these patients are usually over 65 > > Their bodies tend to heal more slowly anyway, and this is obviously > complicated by the surgeries > > > > I usually use needle with electric stim, TDP diathermy, and cupping with > stroking > > They will usually report alleviation of pain from several hours to several > days > > > > Sometimes when they feel better, they will go out and be more active, and > overexert - increasing the irritation > > > > Good luck > > > > Doug > > > > _____ > > leah tynkova [leahhome] > Friday, October 15, 2004 2:10 PM > Chinese Medicine > RE: fused cervical vertabrae > > > > > Doug > When you work on patients with spinal fusion do you > use electro? or moxa? what points specifically? What > herbs and formula, if you usually use them. And the > last - how old thew patients? I am interested because > my experience usually is not optimistic. Acu works > very short time, then pain returns. But my patients > usually old, over 65. How often do you make treatment? > > Yuri > > --- Doug Briggs <docacu@c...> wrote: > > > > > I work with post spinal fusion - neck and low back - > > often > > > y will > > I can bring great relief with Acu - but when he goes > > home and works in his > > shop - the pressure of leaning forward on his neck > > muscles causes a > > recurrence of tension and pain > > > > > > > > I had a gentleman who suffered a stroke - he was > > hemipelegic on the right - > > to break the spasm, his MD injected botulin to kill > > the muscle contracture > > > > His arm hung flaccid at his side > > > > With acu we were able to return feeling to his hand > > for a time, but he never > > followed through with care long enough to get a > > respone > > > > He chose instead to follow up with another MD who > > wanted to try another > > surgical procedure to regenerate the dead nerves... > > > > > > > > Hope that helps > > > > doug > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > heylaurag [heylaurag@h...] > > Wednesday, October 13, 2004 10:56 PM > > Chinese Medicine > > fused cervical vertabrae > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > I was wondering if anyone has experience to know if > > acupuncture can > > help someone who already had their vertabrae fused. > > I feel sorry for > > this nice older woman who had surgery and (surprise, > > surprise!) it > > didn't help. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Agreed My reference was to fusion by surgery - ie screws and plates " fusion " by tension is readily treated with Acu doug _____ Rich [rfinkelstein] Sunday, October 17, 2004 6:32 PM Chinese Medicine Re: fused cervical vertabrae Hi Doug et al, > there are many things we can do to reduce pain, restore flow, etc > but after surgery such as fusion - there is a PERMANENT change in the quality of the tissues and the function of the joints > even with decreased pain and increased mobility, it is impossible to return to the pre-injry state > even after successful treatment - these patients may return with classic " bi " syndromes when exposed to cold or damp > > releif of pain is not always the same as healing > Since I have only very limited experiences with problems created by surgery, I can only make some very generalized observations. AS I see it, certain surgerical problems may be reversable just like certain injuries may be reversable. The kind of tuina/qigong treatment techniques that I have seen used are able to " break up " damaged areas so that the body can restore itself. To what extent this can work when there is major damage caused by surgery is beyond my experiences. For example, there is little that any treatment can do when there are screws and other odd things in the bones. But there are also situations where the spine is " fused " or badly blocked, due to natural causes, e.g., stress, injury, inherited " cold qi " , etc. This is so common, that in my experiences practically everyone has it to some degree. The question that I am exploring is whether it is possible to treat these kind of blockages with herbs or acupuncture alone. It appears that chronic problems persist until these blockages are dissolved - one way or another. I would be very interested in personal experiences as well as what students are taught in TCM schools concerning these type of problems - either in China or elsewhere. Is this issue addressed, is it ignored, or is it considered unimportant. I know that the tuina teachers that I have talked to all consider this area very important if not primary. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " Rich " <rfinkelstein@a...> wrote: > > > I'm sure you can but the fire needles from a supplier in your area. > >Although > you may have to check how your insurance will cover it. > > I do not know of anyone in my area who uses these techniques, so I am > very interested in hearing from other acupuncturists on the usefulness > of these techniques, particularly when attempting to address severe > blockages as Tom Tam suggests. Rich: Charlie Lo in Highland Park uses a lot of fire needle from what i hear. Also he's an MD so i think he's not as reluctant to use more aggressive techniques as are most acupuncturists in the US. Might actually get insurance to pay for acupuncture too, i don't know. The nine needles have developed into some standard (though usually less invasive) Japanese techniques: teishin, enshin, zanshin, sanryoshin, etc... robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 I am not sure about the definition of " standard needles " here. Normally, in the west, people use guage 28 to 36 needles. The fire needles I use [let's be clear: not in the U.S., lest my insurance should come after me] are certainly not within this range. They are far thicker and sturdier and are typically re-used for the same patient. I could't imagine Laura trying a guage 36 fire needle.... Mike L. Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto wrote: Hi Laura, Fire needling is implemented using standard needles and special 'fire' needles, designed just for that. The needle is heated using a naked flame. Yes, the fire needle is inserted into the Jiaji points and then twisted one way and the person pushed the other way. Difficult to explain, better to see it in real life action, but not the same method you suggest of pulling almost out and then realigning it in every direction. I've seen people you have had fused vertebrae treated using fire needles with excellent results. Surgery was not needed after a course of fire needles. It doesn't hurt that much, alot less than you'd think having a hot needle plunged into your skin. Although you will smell a small amount of burning body hair and skin. Traditional Practitioner attiliodalberto tel: +44 (0) 208 658 5544 www.attiliodalberto.com <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Signature powered by Plaxo ... Want a signature like this? <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=17180106480 & v0=457290 & k0=146111470> Add me to your address book... heylaurag [heylaurag] 18 October 2004 01:46 Chinese Medicine Re: fused cervical vertabrae Hi Attilio, When you say " fire needles " are you saying to just heat the needle up before inserting it? Would you use moxa to heat it, or just a lighter? I know this may not be appropriate technique in the West, but I'd like to know about it. Also, I didn't quite understand your explanation of how the needle is inserted and twisted. Do you put it into the Du, or into the Huatoujiaji points? And how is the twisting done? I've heard of inserting the needle, pulling it almost all the way out, then inserting it in another direction and repeating until you've gone in every direction. Is that what you are saying? Also, have you seen this work in someone who already had the surgery to have her spine fused? Thanks for your thoughts. Laura Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Hi Rich, > > Yes, of course acupuncture and herbs can treat blockages, even better than > Tuina, I believe. > > I personally saw the use of fire needles inserted directly into the spine > for various spinal disorders. The needle is inserted into the vertebrae and > the then twisted around the needle whilst rotating the needle causing the > spine to re-align itself. Very effective, although fire needles may not be > an option in the west. I actually had it done on myself at C4, 5 and 6. It > had instant results, allowing my neck more movement although the tissue was > swollen for a number of days because of the heated needle. > > The question of blockages which has long been discussed on this thread is > too shallow. Acupuncture is by far superior to other forms of therapy and > herbs also. I think we need to go down into a deeper level and involve other > true forms of TCM rather than the constant discussion of Tuina, which by > itself it not truly effective. I had Tuina by a experienced blind masseur > for 3 times a week for 4 months. It felt wonderful but didn't cure the > problem. I believe that acupuncture can cure that problem aswell as the use > of herbs. > > I know some members will be upset by my comments, but I feel I have to set > the record straight. > > Kind regards > > Attilio > > > > Traditional Practitioner > attiliodalberto > tel: +44 (0) 208 658 5544 > www.attiliodalberto.com > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Signature powered by Plaxo ... Want a > signature like this? > <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me? u=17180106480 & v0=457290 & k0=146111470> Add me > to your address book... > > > Rich [rfinkelstein@a...] > 18 October 2004 00:32 > Chinese Medicine > Re: fused cervical vertabrae > > > But there are also situations where the spine is " fused " or badly > blocked, due to natural causes, e.g., stress, injury, inherited " cold > qi " , etc. This is so common, that in my experiences practically > everyone has it to some degree. The question that I am exploring is > whether it is possible to treat these kind of blockages with herbs or > acupuncture alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 HI Robert, > > Charlie Lo in Highland Park uses a lot of fire needle from what i hear. Also he's an MD so i > think he's not as reluctant to use more aggressive techniques as are most acupuncturists > in the US. Might actually get insurance to pay for acupuncture too, i don't know. > > The nine needles have developed into some standard (though usually less invasive) > Japanese techniques: teishin, enshin, zanshin, sanryoshin, etc... > > robert This is very useful information. I know Dr. Lo very well. We have been studying Tai Chi together for 10 years or so. He has a very busy practice along with his wife Allison. I will definitely talk about this with him when I see him on Tues. Do you find, in your own practrice, it is every necessary or useful to use these nine-needle techniques. I have never actually seen it used, but my guess it must be a bit different since apparently the techniques are designed to break up substantial blockages. Please correct me and inform me where I might be wrong. Any comments from any other forum member are welcome. Of course, I will discuss this with Dr. Lo, who as you mentioned, is an M.D. and may feel less constrained. Thanks again, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " Rich " <rfinkelstein@a...> wrote: > > Do you find, in your own practrice, it is every necessary or useful to > use these nine-needle techniques. I have never actually seen it used, > but my guess it must be a bit different since apparently the > techniques are designed to break up substantial blockages. Please > correct me and inform me where I might be wrong. Well, all nine needles as they originally were aren't really used anymore. Some are used all the time, like the fine needle and the long needle -- they are basically the same as the modern needles used in acupuncture. The arrowhead needle was the grand-daddy of most of the sharp or semi-sharp cutaneous needles used today -- the plum blossom needle, the zanshin, the Japanese pediatric needles (shonishin), etc. The pressure needle is essentially the teishin and the round needle is the enshin. The sharp needle became the three-edge needle (sanryoshin) which is commonly used for bloodletting techniques. The sword needle is basically a lancet and is more a surgical implement than a needle (used to lance boils, etc). The big needle became the barefoot doctor's needle. I routinely use the fine needle, zanshin, enshin and teishin and sometimes the sanryoshin. When i tx kids i use the shonishin. The zanshin has some similarities to guasha but it's not used to scrape; it is used to " cut " the muscle layer (it is not sharpened so it doesn't actually break the skin). The enshin is used to rub along the channels and the flesh. The teishin is more or less a non-invasive replacement for the fine needle, usually used for tonification or scatter-needle techniques. Sanryoshin is used for bloodletting and shonishin is basically a smaller zanshin. The people i trained with didn't really talk about blockages, they talked about ja ki (xie qi) but the zanshin and to some degree the enshin are often used on kori (indurated tissue) which i'm guessing might fit your blockage criteria. Some fine needle techniques i use might also fall into that category -- i'm guessing so, anyway. Direct moxibustion can also be very effective in treating kori, and i use it quite a lot. rh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Hi Doug, Thanks for the clarification. I'm still confused by one thing, though. What do you mean by, " along the area of pain--not across " ? Thanks, Laura Chinese Medicine , " Doug Briggs " <docacu@c...> wrote: > > I am very careful treating along the Du > > Usually I needle with stim through the paraspinal muscles - in the Jiaji > > Along the area of pain - not across > > > > I never cup acute inflammation - only chronic stagnation > > I use a small cup and stroke right along the paraspinal tissues > > > > Good luck > > Doug > > > > _____ > > heylaurag [heylaurag@h...] > Sunday, October 17, 2004 7:50 PM > Chinese Medicine > Re: fused cervical vertabrae > > > > > > Hi Doug, > > What points would you hook up for electrical stim? UB 10 and just > below the area of pain? The Du? Huatoujiaji? > > She is swollen all around her neck. So I am a little nervous about > treating directing into the area. > > Do you cup the UB channel or closer to the spine? > > Laura > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Doug Briggs " > <docacu@c...> wrote: > > > > As you said, these patients are usually over 65 > > > > Their bodies tend to heal more slowly anyway, and this is obviously > > complicated by the surgeries > > > > > > > > I usually use needle with electric stim, TDP diathermy, and cupping > with > > stroking > > > > They will usually report alleviation of pain from several hours to > several > > days > > > > > > > > Sometimes when they feel better, they will go out and be more > active, and > > overexert - increasing the irritation > > > > > > > > Good luck > > > > > > > > Doug > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > leah tynkova [leahhome] > > Friday, October 15, 2004 2:10 PM > > Chinese Medicine > > RE: fused cervical vertabrae > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > When you work on patients with spinal fusion do you > > use electro? or moxa? what points specifically? What > > herbs and formula, if you usually use them. And the > > last - how old thew patients? I am interested because > > my experience usually is not optimistic. Acu works > > very short time, then pain returns. But my patients > > usually old, over 65. How often do you make treatment? > > > > Yuri > > > > --- Doug Briggs <docacu@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > I work with post spinal fusion - neck and low back - > > > often > > > > > y will > > > I can bring great relief with Acu - but when he goes > > > home and works in his > > > shop - the pressure of leaning forward on his neck > > > muscles causes a > > > recurrence of tension and pain > > > > > > > > > > > > I had a gentleman who suffered a stroke - he was > > > hemipelegic on the right - > > > to break the spasm, his MD injected botulin to kill > > > the muscle contracture > > > > > > His arm hung flaccid at his side > > > > > > With acu we were able to return feeling to his hand > > > for a time, but he never > > > followed through with care long enough to get a > > > respone > > > > > > He chose instead to follow up with another MD who > > > wanted to try another > > > surgical procedure to regenerate the dead nerves... > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope that helps > > > > > > doug > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > heylaurag [heylaurag@h...] > > > Wednesday, October 13, 2004 10:56 PM > > > Chinese Medicine > > > fused cervical vertabrae > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone has experience to know if > > > acupuncture can > > > help someone who already had their vertabrae fused. > > > I feel sorry for > > > this nice older woman who had surgery and (surprise, > > > surprise!) it > > > didn't help. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Ok, just in case I wasn't clear---I was talking about a patient who had the surgery to have her vertabrae fused. Does that make a difference in the feedback I've been getting? I'd hate to have her waste her money if there's no reason to think that I can help her. Thanks, Laura Chinese Medicine , " Doug Briggs " <docacu@c...> wrote: > > Agreed > > > > My reference was to fusion by surgery - ie screws and plates > > " fusion " by tension is readily treated with Acu > > > > doug > > > > _____ > > Rich [rfinkelstein@a...] > Sunday, October 17, 2004 6:32 PM > Chinese Medicine > Re: fused cervical vertabrae > > > > Hi Doug et al, > > > there are many things we can do to reduce pain, restore flow, etc > > but after surgery such as fusion - there is a PERMANENT change in > the quality of the tissues and the function of the joints > > even with decreased pain and increased mobility, it is impossible to > return to the pre-injry state > > even after successful treatment - these patients may return with > classic " bi " syndromes when exposed to cold or damp > > > > releif of pain is not always the same as healing > > > > Since I have only very limited experiences with problems created by > surgery, I can only make some very generalized observations. AS I see > it, certain surgerical problems may be reversable just like certain > injuries may be reversable. The kind of tuina/qigong treatment > techniques that I have seen used are able to " break up " damaged areas > so that the body can restore itself. To what extent this can work when > there is major damage caused by surgery is beyond my experiences. For > example, there is little that any treatment can do when there are > screws and other odd things in the bones. > > But there are also situations where the spine is " fused " or badly > blocked, due to natural causes, e.g., stress, injury, inherited " cold > qi " , etc. This is so common, that in my experiences practically > everyone has it to some degree. The question that I am exploring is > whether it is possible to treat these kind of blockages with herbs or > acupuncture alone. It appears that chronic problems persist until > these blockages are dissolved - one way or another. I would be very > interested in personal experiences as well as what students are taught > in TCM schools concerning these type of problems - either in China or > elsewhere. Is this issue addressed, is it ignored, or is it considered > unimportant. I know that the tuina teachers that I have talked to all > consider this area very important if not primary. > > Regards, > Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Sure Absolutely you can help But, the patient may have a recurrence of symptoms simply because of the residual changes post surgery But that does not mean you can not help or give some degree of relief The bodys ability to heal is miraculous in itself Acupuncture can only help Good luck Doug _____ heylaurag [heylaurag] Tuesday, October 19, 2004 3:15 AM Chinese Medicine Re: fused cervical vertabrae Ok, just in case I wasn't clear---I was talking about a patient who had the surgery to have her vertabrae fused. Does that make a difference in the feedback I've been getting? I'd hate to have her waste her money if there's no reason to think that I can help her. Thanks, Laura Chinese Medicine , " Doug Briggs " <docacu@c...> wrote: > > Agreed > > > > My reference was to fusion by surgery - ie screws and plates > > " fusion " by tension is readily treated with Acu > > > > doug > > > > _____ > > Rich [rfinkelstein@a...] > Sunday, October 17, 2004 6:32 PM > Chinese Medicine > Re: fused cervical vertabrae > > > > Hi Doug et al, > > > there are many things we can do to reduce pain, restore flow, etc > > but after surgery such as fusion - there is a PERMANENT change in > the quality of the tissues and the function of the joints > > even with decreased pain and increased mobility, it is impossible to > return to the pre-injry state > > even after successful treatment - these patients may return with > classic " bi " syndromes when exposed to cold or damp > > > > releif of pain is not always the same as healing > > > > Since I have only very limited experiences with problems created by > surgery, I can only make some very generalized observations. AS I see > it, certain surgerical problems may be reversable just like certain > injuries may be reversable. The kind of tuina/qigong treatment > techniques that I have seen used are able to " break up " damaged areas > so that the body can restore itself. To what extent this can work when > there is major damage caused by surgery is beyond my experiences. For > example, there is little that any treatment can do when there are > screws and other odd things in the bones. > > But there are also situations where the spine is " fused " or badly > blocked, due to natural causes, e.g., stress, injury, inherited " cold > qi " , etc. This is so common, that in my experiences practically > everyone has it to some degree. The question that I am exploring is > whether it is possible to treat these kind of blockages with herbs or > acupuncture alone. It appears that chronic problems persist until > these blockages are dissolved - one way or another. I would be very > interested in personal experiences as well as what students are taught > in TCM schools concerning these type of problems - either in China or > elsewhere. Is this issue addressed, is it ignored, or is it considered > unimportant. I know that the tuina teachers that I have talked to all > consider this area very important if not primary. > > Regards, > Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Along the spine - ie: BL36 to Bl 40 on one side Not connecting across - ie: Bl36 to BL 36 Hope that clarifies Doug _____ heylaurag [heylaurag] Tuesday, October 19, 2004 3:04 AM Chinese Medicine Re: fused cervical vertabrae Hi Doug, Thanks for the clarification. I'm still confused by one thing, though. What do you mean by, " along the area of pain--not across " ? Thanks, Laura Chinese Medicine , " Doug Briggs " <docacu@c...> wrote: > > I am very careful treating along the Du > > Usually I needle with stim through the paraspinal muscles - in the Jiaji > > Along the area of pain - not across > > > > I never cup acute inflammation - only chronic stagnation > > I use a small cup and stroke right along the paraspinal tissues > > > > Good luck > > Doug > > > > _____ > > heylaurag [heylaurag@h...] > Sunday, October 17, 2004 7:50 PM > Chinese Medicine > Re: fused cervical vertabrae > > > > > > Hi Doug, > > What points would you hook up for electrical stim? UB 10 and just > below the area of pain? The Du? Huatoujiaji? > > She is swollen all around her neck. So I am a little nervous about > treating directing into the area. > > Do you cup the UB channel or closer to the spine? > > Laura > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Doug Briggs " > <docacu@c...> wrote: > > > > As you said, these patients are usually over 65 > > > > Their bodies tend to heal more slowly anyway, and this is obviously > > complicated by the surgeries > > > > > > > > I usually use needle with electric stim, TDP diathermy, and cupping > with > > stroking > > > > They will usually report alleviation of pain from several hours to > several > > days > > > > > > > > Sometimes when they feel better, they will go out and be more > active, and > > overexert - increasing the irritation > > > > > > > > Good luck > > > > > > > > Doug > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > leah tynkova [leahhome] > > Friday, October 15, 2004 2:10 PM > > Chinese Medicine > > RE: fused cervical vertabrae > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > When you work on patients with spinal fusion do you > > use electro? or moxa? what points specifically? What > > herbs and formula, if you usually use them. And the > > last - how old thew patients? I am interested because > > my experience usually is not optimistic. Acu works > > very short time, then pain returns. But my patients > > usually old, over 65. How often do you make treatment? > > > > Yuri > > > > --- Doug Briggs <docacu@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > I work with post spinal fusion - neck and low back - > > > often > > > > > y will > > > I can bring great relief with Acu - but when he goes > > > home and works in his > > > shop - the pressure of leaning forward on his neck > > > muscles causes a > > > recurrence of tension and pain > > > > > > > > > > > > I had a gentleman who suffered a stroke - he was > > > hemipelegic on the right - > > > to break the spasm, his MD injected botulin to kill > > > the muscle contracture > > > > > > His arm hung flaccid at his side > > > > > > With acu we were able to return feeling to his hand > > > for a time, but he never > > > followed through with care long enough to get a > > > respone > > > > > > He chose instead to follow up with another MD who > > > wanted to try another > > > surgical procedure to regenerate the dead nerves... > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope that helps > > > > > > doug > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > heylaurag [heylaurag@h...] > > > Wednesday, October 13, 2004 10:56 PM > > > Chinese Medicine > > > fused cervical vertabrae > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone has experience to know if > > > acupuncture can > > > help someone who already had their vertabrae fused. > > > I feel sorry for > > > this nice older woman who had surgery and (surprise, > > > surprise!) it > > > didn't help. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Hi, My .02 on this subject. In my experience of more than 50 patients over a 36 year period; Post Surgery Spinal Fusion responds well to direct needling of the area with Needle Moxa combined with Hua To Jia Jie points with strong stim and deep insetion. I also always needle by pulse and tongue as well. Doc vote. - Register online to vote today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Hi Robert, Thanks much for the description of the Nine Needles that you have been trained in. In is interesting to see how these Needle techniques extend the the types of treatments that can be applied. I would not even call them acupuncture. " Needling " would seem to be more appropriate. > The people i trained with didn't really talk about blockages, they talked about ja ki (xie qi) > but the zanshin and to some degree the enshin are often used on kori (indurated tissue) > which i'm guessing might fit your blockage criteria. I figure every " family " has their own way of describing what they are attempting to " clear " . My teacher and Tom Tam call it " cold qi " , blockages, stagnant qi. It is all the same to me. It is " qi " that is not " moving " in the way it should. If it becomes very " dense " then it causes a " blockage " . It is just like the river mud that accumulates and eventually causes an obstruction in the flow of the river itself. " Xie qi " , I guess, would be another way of naming this phenomenon. For me it all settles into one thing, qi, that is flowing at various rates (frequenciea) and in various modulations - just like radio waves. All manifestations, whether it be called " cold qi " " hot qi " , " xie qi " , are just differences in the frequency and amplitude of the qi waves. Yin and Yang would correspond to the crest and troughs of the waves. Obstructions change the internal frequencies of qi and create " cold qi " or " hot qi " . So I can understand why different methodologies may refer to it in a different way. Thanks again for the very informative descriptions. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Thanks for the clarification Doug. So, for fused cervical vertabrae what would be a typical set of points you might hook up to electro? Would you hook up points close by above and below it--for instance from C4 to T1, or would you connect further down, such as to UB 60 (which seems to be very good for neck pain)? I am trying to open my mind to electro. I've tended to be hesitant to use it, so my experience is limited. Thanks for your time, Laura Chinese Medicine , " Doug Briggs " <docacu@c...> wrote: > > Along the spine - ie: BL36 to Bl 40 on one side > > Not connecting across - ie: Bl36 to BL 36 > > > > Hope that clarifies > > > > Doug > > > _____ > > heylaurag [heylaurag@h...] > Tuesday, October 19, 2004 3:04 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: fused cervical vertabrae > > > Hi Doug, Thanks for the clarification. I'm still confused by one > thing, though. What do you mean by, " along the area of pain--not > across " ? > > Thanks, > > Laura > > Chinese Medicine , " Doug Briggs " > <docacu@c...> wrote: > > > > I am very careful treating along the Du > > > > Usually I needle with stim through the paraspinal muscles - in the > Jiaji > > > > Along the area of pain - not across > > > > > > > > I never cup acute inflammation - only chronic stagnation > > > > I use a small cup and stroke right along the paraspinal tissues > > > > > > > > Good luck > > > > Doug > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > heylaurag [heylaurag@h...] > > Sunday, October 17, 2004 7:50 PM > > Chinese Medicine > > Re: fused cervical vertabrae > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Doug, > > > > What points would you hook up for electrical stim? UB 10 and just > > below the area of pain? The Du? Huatoujiaji? > > > > She is swollen all around her neck. So I am a little nervous about > > treating directing into the area. > > > > Do you cup the UB channel or closer to the spine? > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Doug Briggs " > > <docacu@c...> wrote: > > > > > > As you said, these patients are usually over 65 > > > > > > Their bodies tend to heal more slowly anyway, and this is > obviously > > > complicated by the surgeries > > > > > > > > > > > > I usually use needle with electric stim, TDP diathermy, and > cupping > > with > > > stroking > > > > > > They will usually report alleviation of pain from several hours > to > > several > > > days > > > > > > > > > > > > Sometimes when they feel better, they will go out and be more > > active, and > > > overexert - increasing the irritation > > > > > > > > > > > > Good luck > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > leah tynkova [leahhome] > > > Friday, October 15, 2004 2:10 PM > > > Chinese Medicine > > > RE: fused cervical vertabrae > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > > When you work on patients with spinal fusion do you > > > use electro? or moxa? what points specifically? What > > > herbs and formula, if you usually use them. And the > > > last - how old thew patients? I am interested because > > > my experience usually is not optimistic. Acu works > > > very short time, then pain returns. But my patients > > > usually old, over 65. How often do you make treatment? > > > > > > Yuri > > > > > > --- Doug Briggs <docacu@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I work with post spinal fusion - neck and low back - > > > > often > > > > > > > y will > > > > I can bring great relief with Acu - but when he goes > > > > home and works in his > > > > shop - the pressure of leaning forward on his neck > > > > muscles causes a > > > > recurrence of tension and pain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had a gentleman who suffered a stroke - he was > > > > hemipelegic on the right - > > > > to break the spasm, his MD injected botulin to kill > > > > the muscle contracture > > > > > > > > His arm hung flaccid at his side > > > > > > > > With acu we were able to return feeling to his hand > > > > for a time, but he never > > > > followed through with care long enough to get a > > > > respone > > > > > > > > He chose instead to follow up with another MD who > > > > wanted to try another > > > > surgical procedure to regenerate the dead nerves... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope that helps > > > > > > > > doug > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > heylaurag [heylaurag@h...] > > > > Wednesday, October 13, 2004 10:56 PM > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > fused cervical vertabrae > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone has experience to know if > > > > acupuncture can > > > > help someone who already had their vertabrae fused. > > > > I feel sorry for > > > > this nice older woman who had surgery and (surprise, > > > > surprise!) it > > > > didn't help. > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 I usually use the appropriate Jiaji points with strong but comfortable stim Varying between 5-80 pps For at least 20 minutes Then some soft tissue tuina There is no reason not to use points farther down the BL channel To facilitate your treatment (ie UB40 is a great point for spinal myospasm) Doug _____ heylaurag [heylaurag] Wednesday, October 20, 2004 1:48 AM Chinese Medicine Re: fused cervical vertabrae Thanks for the clarification Doug. So, for fused cervical vertabrae what would be a typical set of points you might hook up to electro? Would you hook up points close by above and below it--for from C4 to T1, or would you connect further down, such as to UB 60 (which seems to be very good for neck pain)? I am trying to open my mind to electro. I've tended to be hesitant to use it, so my experience is limited. Thanks for your time, Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.