My Background

[Guest guest]

Hi Ray,

 

>So finally to locate release

> and clear so many physical problems and effect the underlyingg viscera

> requires NO diagnosis UNLESS you really want to make one up but it

doesn't

> require one.This may be hard to swallow after years of honest study

> spectacular results are possible.

>

> Ray Ford

 

Yes, this is what I first observed and realized upon observing my

pracititioner " cure " so many cases that acupunture and herbs were

unable to resolve - within my family and many dozens of friends and

acquaintenances who have since availed themselves of the services of

this same tuina(anmo)/qigong practitioner.

 

BTW, the books of Mark Seem and Kiko Matsumoto have had a very

profound affect on not only the way I view , but the

way I view life. It is a shame that there books are not an integral

part of the TCM curriculum. In fact, when I first mentioned to one TCM

teacher that I found Mark Seem's books interesting (along with

Worsley), he " struck back " and said they they were " fringe " and maybe

I shouldn't be reading them. :-) But I read them nonetheless and I

very much like where their writings have taken me. For those who are

interested, I can highly, highly recommend, " Hara Diagonsis " by

Matsumoto and Birch, and " Bodymind Energetics " and " Acupunture

Imaging " by Mark Seem. They are applicable to students, professionals,

and laypeople alike. Very readable and immensely interesting and

informative.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

On 21/09/2004, at 4:02 AM, rayford wrote:

> STEVE The issue has nothing to do with being TCM or non-TCM. The

> issue is

> about knocking TCM without actually understanding the system of TCM is

> to begin with.

> RAY Although you did seem to take it personally

>

 

Ray,

 

Not personally; but I will stand up for what my profession is and is

not and will challenge those who misrepresent it all day long. If

necessary my tone will gradually become more aggressive until my

profession is protected.

 

You also seem to take your profession seriously; as you demonstrate by

your concern and growing aggression in this thread.

 

> STEVE Personally, I don't want this list to be restrictive to ANY type

> of

> professional healthcare. In fact, I would be very interested to learn

> more about the " Japanese " acupuncture styles as I have found that

> clinically; the TCM style acupuncture I initially trained in

> (particularly as practised in China) is not well tolerated by many of

> us lao wai....and have therefore reduced needle size, depth and

> manipulation in a majority of my patients with no noticeable loss in

> clinical effectiveness.

>

> RAY So maybe you are no longer practicing TCM when you practice this

> style

> of acupuncture?

>

 

I am adjusting my treatment to suit a patients constitution to ensure

the best clinical results. Nothing more, nothing less. I am adhering to

the theories of professional TCM as I was taught. Not all of my

instructors in China had an almost pathological attachment to 3 cun

needles and agressive manipulation.....but many did. Actually, my

mentors here have adjusted their needle technique and choice radically

since practicing in Australia also.

 

> STEVE I don't think I ever suggested Kiiko Matsumoto or any other

> practitioner has the wrong idea on anything; just a certain individual

> without professional training who continually .....no no, won't go

> there again.

>

> RAY Its the way that is conveyed that counts

>

 

What I conveyed was annoyance with a non-practitioner and stated that

they did not have a sufficient knowledge base to claim what they

claimed about TCM. You are getting your panties in a knot out of

context once again.

 

>

>

> STEVE This is not about Rich's personal area of expertise; it is about

> the

> boundaries on this list not being stepped over.

>

> RAY Boundaries are just that.Rich has been saying this stuff for

> months.You

> obviously protect those boundaries.

>

 

And now you protect Rich from me?

 

> STEVE You don't need to state your background, but it is impressive!

> Only

> one

> individuals background was questioned, and it turns out to be for very

> good reason in the eyes of more than a few on this list.

> RAY well done!!!

>

> STEVE Incidentally, do you currently practice in Australia? If so, you

> would

>

> know that it is also a legal responsibility to have a reasonably

> complete patient record with signs/symptoms, a working diagnosis,

> syndrome differentiation, matching treatment principle and treatment

> prescription for each patient visit. This is the STANDARD for a

> registered professional of TCM in Australia.

>

> RAY At NO point did i ever say that i did not keep records!Nor did I

> say

> that i did not know the standard laws as a practitioner.I was giving an

> opinion about what is possible about TREATMENT not what I do.

>

 

I never suggested you didn't keep records. At no point did I question

your professionalism and if you felt I did; I apologise. I stated that

sufficient records including a diagnosis are requirements for TCM

practice here. I never suggested you didn't follow these requirements.

 

> STEVE Diagnosis, may not apply to other therapies, and I was not

> suggesting

> that it did or would be unethical in OTHER therapies. However, I do

> find it hard to believe any professional health care provider would

> treat a patient without a diagnosis, at least in the patient

> record.............that would do your profession no favours and will

> land your butt in a WHOLE heap of trouble if a patient ever took you to

> court for malpractice or injury compensation.

>

> RAY Well Steve thanks for the advice.

>

 

Your sarcasm is taken on-board and you can add my name next to Z'ev's

on the list of people who request that you don't don't represent their

positions.

 

Best wishes,

 

Steve

[Guest guest]

On 21/09/2004, at 12:55 AM, Rich wrote:

 

>

> Hi Attilio,

>

> I do not wish to get specific schools or teachers embroiled in this

> controversy. This is my life - not theirs.

>

> I am a TCM student, I am Taiji/Qigong teacher, and I have studied TCM

> and medical qigong for many years with various teachers.......

 

 

 

> With that said, I am indeed a full-time student working toward

> Tuina/Qigong licensing here in Chicago with a background that includes:

>

> I have attended:

>

> -Courses in and Tuina in an accredited TCM school.

> -Courses in Anatomy, Phsyiology, , Shiatsu,

> Business/Ethics, etc. all part of a standard AOBTA course curriculum

> for becoming a certified practitioner. My objective is to provide

> tuina/qigong services in a similar fashion as my teacher.

> -Apprenticing with different Tuina practitioners for three years

> -Studied Taiji with Professor H. for 5 years

> -Studied Taiji/Qigong with Master G. for 15 years

> -Teaching Taiji/Qigong for 15 years

> -Studied Yoga for 25 years

> -Studied Medical Qigong as an apprentice for three years

> -Taught taiji and qigong for 15 years

>

 

Rich,

 

Thanks for finally being a little specific about your experience and

training.

 

" Courses in chinese medicine " is terribly vague but I see you have

attended some units in a standard curriculum for becoming a certified

practitioner of something. Forgive me if I am mistaken; but I assume

from this list that you did not actually graduate from any of these

schools or actually become a certified practitioner? Attending is not

graduating; and graduating is necessary to obtain a professional

qualification last time I checked.

 

All the above suggest you are a keen student but do NOT have any formal

professional qualifications in Chinese herbal medicine or TCM or

acupuncture or any professionally recognised health care system?

 

If I am correct with these assumptions.........I say again that you are

not qualified to comment or represent the profession of TCM in the

areas that you have been.

 

This not a personal vendetta; just getting the facts clear so we can

all move on.

 

I look forward to reading about your qigong/taiji contributions to this

list. (no sacrasm intended).

 

Best Wishes,

 

Steve

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

 

>

> Not personally; but I will stand up for what my profession is and is

> not and will challenge those who misrepresent it all day long. If

> necessary my tone will gradually become more aggressive until my

> profession is protected.

 

I have heard these sentiments before - only they were and still are

voiced by MDs who believe that acuptunture, herbalism, tuina and

qigong is just a bunch of " quackery " - and they are/were trying to

" protect " their profession - i.e. medical health care - from " quacks " .

 

 

> What I conveyed was annoyance with a non-practitioner and stated >that

> they did not have a sufficient knowledge base to claim what they

> claimed about TCM. You are getting your panties in a knot out of

> context once again.

 

Interestingly, when acupuncturists, such as yourself, were seeking

support for their profession from patients, such as myself, over the

last 25 years, I don't recall being asked whether I had " a sufficient

knowledge base " to form an opinion and voice that opinion concerning

acupunture to state legislatures. :-) As a " patient " , over the last 25

years I have been very, very active in both the study, discussion, and

referral of friends and acquaintences to Chinese medicine. For 25

years I have been recommending this modality - from a position of

knowledge - to friends and acquaintences, help making it possible for

TCM to be recognized in my state as a standalone profession.

 

I believe I have an equal stake and an equal voice - as well as more

than enough knowledge to discuss this subject given my history and

experiences. Just like 25 years ago, I am quite able to judge what is

working best for myself, my family, and my friends. I am not just a

disinterested bystander. There is nothing that has been said on this

forum that I have found to beyond my level of comprehension. Far from

it. I do recognize differences in perspective - which others may or

may not.

 

Chinese medicine has always been a medicine of the " people " , utilizing

nomenclature and concepts that have been designed to empower people to

manage their own health - hence the Classics. In ancient times, the

" barefoot doctor " was not licensed - but still quite respected for

what he/she did. They still exist today all around China and deserve

just as much respect today as they did 1000s of years ago.

 

Will TCM acupuncturists and herbalists soon be allies with the

pharmaceutical companies in attempting to limit access to consumers to

herbs on health store shelves? How far are TCM acupunturists and

herbalists willing to go to " protect " their profession. This will be

interesting to watch.

 

However, as a student of TCM within the modalities of Tuina/Anmo and

Medical Qigong, I have gladly agreed to abide by Attilio's guidelines,

and I understand he is free to delete any messages that he feels are

not within his guidelines.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

_____

 

Rich [rfinkelstein]

 

 

Interestingly, when acupuncturists, such as yourself, were seeking

support for their profession from patients, such as myself, over the

last 25 years, I don't recall being asked whether I had " a sufficient

knowledge base " to form an opinion and voice that opinion concerning

acupunture to state legislatures. :-) As a " patient " , over the last 25

years I have been very, very active in both the study, discussion, and

referral of friends and acquaintences to Chinese medicine. For 25

years I have been recommending this modality - from a position of

knowledge - to friends and acquaintences, help making it possible for

TCM to be recognized in my state as a standalone profession.

 

I believe I have an equal stake and an equal voice - as well as more

than enough knowledge to discuss this subject given my history and

experiences.

 

[Jason]

 

 

Can I have some of what you are smoking?

<http://us.adserver./l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=grphealth

/S=:HM/A=2128215/rand=730503020>

 

I personally could care less how much you have supported 'our' profession,

this does not give you adequate knowledge to make such judgments and claims

as you have, nor make you an equal to a professional practitioner.

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hold on a minute. . . .

 

What 'barefoot doctor' are you talking about? This particular form of

health care practice, an amalgam of folk medicine, Western medicine,

and some Chinese medical methods, is a modern innovation from the early

days of Communist China. Apparently, this designation no longer

exists.

 

Perhaps you are talking about itinerant healers who travelled from

place to place, ringing their bells and selling their remedies? A

different thing entirely.

 

 

On Sep 20, 2004, at 1:59 PM, Rich wrote:

 

> In ancient times, the

> " barefoot doctor " was not licensed - but still quite respected for

> what he/she did. They still exist today all around China and deserve

> just as much respect today as they did 1000s of years ago.

>

[Guest guest]

This is absurd. I don't think anyone professes such a fate. If we

had, however, some say in what health food stores and multi-marketers

were selling, perhaps ma huang wouldn't have been banned in the US. It

was abuses by those professions, not ours, that led to the ban.

 

 

On Sep 20, 2004, at 1:59 PM, Rich wrote:

 

> Will TCM acupuncturists and herbalists soon be allies with the

> pharmaceutical companies in attempting to limit access to consumers to

> herbs on health store shelves? How far are TCM acupunturists and

> herbalists willing to go to " protect " their profession. This will be

> interesting to watch.

[Guest guest]

Different issue, Rich. Don't impose this example on this discussion.

It is what is called a 'red herring', using a misleading argument.

 

MD's are protecting their 'turf', their economic interests, not their

conceptual structure.

 

It seems that both you are trying to paint myself and others as

" anti-qigong " or " anti-Japanese acupuncture " , and that just isn't true.

I just want to see Chinese medicine described accurately, by people

who know what they are talking about.

 

 

On Sep 20, 2004, at 1:59 PM, Rich wrote:

 

> I have heard these sentiments before - only they were and still are

> voiced by MDs who believe that acuptunture, herbalism, tuina and

> qigong is just a bunch of " quackery " - and they are/were trying to

> " protect " their profession - i.e. medical health care - from " quacks " .

[Guest guest]

My background:

 

East Asian Medicine practitioner since 1995 and educator since 1998. Licensed in

Illinois

and Florida. Extensive specialty training in Japanese acupuncture and

moxibustion.

Taught a full course load for two ACAOM-accredited programs, Midwest College

1999

-2002 and Southeast Institute (where I was also Clinic Director) 2002-2003.

Taught for

Toyohari association 1998-2000. Ongoing teaching in continuing education and

bodywork

certification programs.

 

Teaching experience includes TCM theory, diagnosis, point location, acupuncture

treatment strategy, and Chinese herbal materia medica and formulas, as well as

clinic

instruction in acupuncture and herbal medicine. Also continuing education in

various

forms of Japanese acupuncture.

 

Contributor and associate editor for North American Journal of Oriental

Medicine, with

articles published worldwide in English and Japanese.

 

Special areas of professional interest include Japanese medicine, palpatory

approaches to

acupuncture and osteopathy-derived bodywork.

 

Why am I telling you all this?

 

Because Rich is currently enrolled in a course in specifically TCM theory that I

am currently

teaching at a shiatsu school in the Chicago area. The course is designed to

bring the

school's curriculum up to AOBTA standards so the graduates can work

professionally in

Illinois, which has a pending massage therapy license.

 

Rich has shown himself to be an enthusiastic and very knowledgeable student, yet

has

been nothing but respectful towards me and the class members. He has

contributed

positively to the class discussion, asked focused and well considered questions

and even

brought up points I had missed or glossed over in my lecture.

 

I do not consider his knowledge of TCM to be complete; for that matter my own

knowledge is woefully incomplete. We are all in process here. If Rich is to be

faulted for

his enthusiasm, strong opinions and readiness to speak, well, all I can say is

that there are

many on this list who should be reluctant to cast stones.

 

Rich brings a unique perspective to the discussion, and has what many would

consider to

be an optimal training background: both access to standard academic TCM through

myself

and others as well as a close relationship/apprenticeship with a Chinese

practitioner of

several decades experience.

 

I debated with myself on whether I should get involved with all this list

brouhaha, as I

consider it a colossal waste of precious time and energy. Rest assured that

with all the

academics present on this list there is more than enough balance to any

perceived

shortcomings in Rich's understanding of TCM and I see very little reason to

justify this

whole burn-the-heretic scenario. I personally think the discussion should come

to close

and we should move on to something more constructive.

 

Robert Hayden, L.Ac., M.S.O.M., Dipl.Ac. & C.H., A.P.

 

 

>

> On 21/09/2004, at 12:55 AM, Rich wrote:

>

> >

> > Hi Attilio,

> >

> > I do not wish to get specific schools or teachers embroiled in this

> > controversy. This is my life - not theirs.

> >

> > I am a TCM student, I am Taiji/Qigong teacher, and I have studied TCM

> > and medical qigong for many years with various teachers.......

>

[Guest guest]

Zev,

If I misrepresent your position I apologise,I can only go on what I see in

print,in one of your previous posts you did mention pressing points.Plenty

of Chinese physicians are now palpating the channels and plenty are NOW

admitting that this is what they have been doing for a long time.Some i have

met are being influenced by western material such as Travell and Baldry

dispute this if you like but I have seen the books in their hands.

The Channels are not floating in a vacuum they actually flow in and between

muscles amongst other places.Knowledge of these muscles is imperative to an

acupuncturist IMO,how else do we talk to our fellow medical colleagues?How

do we know WHAT we are palpating.Perhaps Chinese people have a different

anatomy and physiology?Anatomy MUST be included if not in the original

course then an acupuncturist must study this by themselves IMO.

Ray Ford

 

----

 

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, 21 September 2004 3:53:51 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: My Background

 

I am sorry, but I must stop asking you to misrepresent my position or

what I say in print. I am presently reading material from a Beijing

physician who palpates channels and practices in a Nan Jing tradition

of acupuncture. If you want to include western anatomy and physiology

as a requirement, you are going into the realm of western medicine.

 

 

 

 

On Sep 20, 2004, at 10:19 AM, rayford wrote:

 

> Palpation of the muscle and fascia,not just " pressing points " as Zev

> mentioned is not part of TCM .After four years of TCM training I went

> to

> Sydney University for two years(part time)to REALLY learn about

> anatomy.That

> was some time ago things have changed.To locate and release tight

> restricted

> muscles and fascia requires an intimate knowledge of those tissues not

> just

> points that is not enough or the pressing of those points.

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

[Guest guest]

----

 

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, 21 September 2004 8:44:10 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: My Background

 

Steve wrote

 

This not a personal vendetta; just getting the facts clear so we can

all move on.

 

 

When I noticed Rich being told that he " had no balls " and was talking

psycho babble " is when I waded into this thread.How that got past the

Moderator I have no idea but I really hope that enormous bias is not being

displayed here.A while ago Lonny was reprimanded for using the word EGO,I

was personally VERY interested in what he had to say as I have read two of

his books and loved them both,he has now long gone which is a pity IMO.I

guess he wasn't using the correct lingo either,not TCM enough.

Do we really want to speak to peers in this way?I see a lot of words about

professionalism written on this list but can anyone imagine the Medical

profession talking to each other in such a way?

Debate is one thing abuse is another,Rich is obviously a very gentle soul

that is why I was defending him against ANY intellectual bullies on this

list.

Ray Ford

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Rich "

<rfinkelstein@a...> wrote:

 

> Yes, this is what I first observed and realized upon observing my

> pracititioner " cure " so many cases that acupunture and herbs were

> unable to resolve - within my family and many dozens of friends and

> acquaintenances who have since availed themselves of the services of

> this same tuina(anmo)/qigong practitioner.

>

> BTW, the books of Mark Seem and Kiko Matsumoto have had a very

> profound affect on not only the way I view , but the

> way I view life. It is a shame that there books are not an integral

> part of the TCM curriculum. In fact, when I first mentioned to one

TCM

> teacher that I found Mark Seem's books interesting (along with

> Worsley), he " struck back " and said they they were " fringe " and

maybe

> I shouldn't be reading them. :-) But I read them nonetheless and I

> very much like where their writings have taken me. For those who are

> interested, I can highly, highly recommend, " Hara Diagonsis " by

> Matsumoto and Birch, and " Bodymind Energetics " and " Acupunture

> Imaging " by Mark Seem. They are applicable to students,

professionals,

> and laypeople alike. Very readable and immensely interesting and

> informative.

>

> Regards,

> Rich

 

Hi Rich,

 

It may be your own experience that QiGong and Tuina is superior to

herbal medicine and accupunture. Perhaps QiGong and Tuina are more

suitable for you. Perhaps you are lucky to meet an expert QiGong

master. However, it cannot prove that QiGong and Tuina are indeed

superior for the following reasons:

 

1. It does not prove anything from a statistical perspective. To

establish any mathematical basis, you need to provide credible

statistical result, not just words like " my family and all my friends

think so " or " my teacher cures so many cases that herbs/accuputure

are unable to solve " .

 

2. QiGong requires a master/teacher who can constantly advise you and

QiGong require a lot more personal effort to learn. Herbal medicine

and accuputure are more scalable, practical and acceptable for busy

city workers who do not have time and tendency to learn QiGong.

 

3. If QiGong/Tuina are indeed is the only way to go. Herbal

medicine/Accupuncture would have died in the long history of chinese

medicine by means of natural selection.

 

4. One must take into consideration the historical context why herbal

medicine and accupunture are given priority.

 

The 1st TCM classic is Neijing (Ling Su, Su Wen) where Ling Su is

dedicated for Accupuncture and Su Wen for theories on TCM.

Subequently, Zhang Ji's SHL shifts its foucs to herbal medicine,

pattern differentiation (Zheng diagnosis) to treat " San Han " . Later

in Jing Dynasty, Li Dong Yuan made his " Bi Wei Lun " to treat disease

arise due to weak digestion system - again the focus in herbal

medicine.

 

According to studies, Neijing is written during the 7 Warrior States

and SHL in the late Han dynasty and " Bi Wei Lun " in Jing Dynasty.

Many wars were fought during these periods with a lot of sick,

injured and dying victims. It is difficult to see how QiGong and

Tuina can be practical during such period of time. Herbal medicine

and accupuncture offer tremendous value to save lives at such times.

[Guest guest]

----

 

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, 21 September 2004 2:18:26 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: My Background

 

Steve Wrote

 

When I and others on this list say " TCM " we are generally referring to

Chinese herbal medicine as currently practised in China. If you didn't

know this; now you do. Thus, I stand by everything I said to be true.

 

I really did not realise that TCM when mentioned on this list was GENERALLY

referring to Chinese Herbal medicine now I do too.I didn't realise that this

was the definition but it does make sense now,this I believe is biased and

wrong and a narrow minded interpretation.What about the thousands of TCM

practitioners in China who practice only acupuncture?You are joking right?

Ray Ford

 

On 21/09/2004, at 2:00 AM, Rich wrote:

 

> Dear Steve,

>

>> I was the one who said it would be unethical to treat without a TCM

>> diagnosis.......and I stand by that BECAUSE I was refereeing to the

>> practice of TCM, not any other modality. Practising TCM does require a

>> diagnosis.........otherwise it is not TCM.

>

> This is absolutely wrong. As I have said many times, the practitioner

> who I am studying with worked and taught Anmo/Tuina and Qigong in TCM

> hospitals and never did any " diagnosis " . Textbooks simply do not cover

> this topic. The texts that are available here in the U.S and studied

> in TCM schools represent a fraction of what is actually practiced in

> China. China has progressed - and in some cases regressed - in many

> different directions over the last 30 years when some of the TCM

> texts, which are still being used today, were first written and

> translated.

[Guest guest]

On 21/09/2004, at 9:37 AM, wrote:

 

> _____

>

> Rich [rfinkelstein]

>

>

> Interestingly, when acupuncturists, such as yourself, were seeking

> support for their profession from patients, such as myself, over the

> last 25 years, I don't recall being asked whether I had " a sufficient

> knowledge base " to form an opinion and voice that opinion concerning

> acupunture to state legislatures. :-) As a " patient " , over the last 25

> years I have been very, very active in both the study, discussion, and

> referral of friends and acquaintences to Chinese medicine. For 25

> years I have been recommending this modality - from a position of

> knowledge - to friends and acquaintences, help making it possible for

> TCM to be recognized in my state as a standalone profession.

>

 

Rich,

 

I can guarantee you that your support had no affect on the acceptance

of my profession in Australia. The risk/benefit ratio and professional

education standards of practitioners is what allows acupuncture to be

practised here.

 

Legislation is aimed at protecting the public from the unqualified such

as yourself. Legislating professional education requirement and

practice standards is designed to increase the chances of a patient

being treated safely, ethically and professionally.

 

Any patient should have freedom of choice in regards to who they choose

to be their health professional. It has NOTHING to do with your

knowledge or lack thereof in promoting (or misrepresenting the)

benefits of any system of health-care......it has EVERYTHING to do with

your freedom to seek treatment from a practitioner as you see fit.

 

None of this was influenced by what ANY patient or unqualified

individual had to say about the theories on any type of Chinese

Medicine.

 

> I believe I have an equal stake and an equal voice - as well as more

> than enough knowledge to discuss this subject given my history and

> experiences.

>

 

In my professional opinion that you do not have an equal voice nor

sufficient knowledge to discuss or represent the TCM profession in any

useful manner.

 

But that is only my opinion,

 

Steve

[Guest guest]

Hi Ray,

 

Yes, your quite right. 'Had no balls' and other such comments should of been

edited by the moderators, I apologise. As for Lon, he comes and goes when he

wishes. After I told him to stop discussing the ego, coz I personally can't

stand it and see no point in it, we had a lengthily off list discussion and

came to a happy agreement.

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio

 

 

rayford [rford]

21 September 2004 04:44

Chinese Medicine

Re: My Background

 

 

When I noticed Rich being told that he " had no balls " and was talking

psycho babble " is when I waded into this thread.How that got past the

Moderator I have no idea but I really hope that enormous bias is not being

displayed here.A while ago Lonny was reprimanded for using the word EGO,I

was personally VERY interested in what he had to say as I have read two of

his books and loved them both,he has now long gone which is a pity IMO.I

guess he wasn't using the correct lingo either,not TCM enough.

 

Ray Ford

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On 21/09/2004, at 1:44 PM, rayford wrote:

 

> When I noticed Rich being told that he " had no balls " and was talking

> psycho babble " is when I waded into this thread.How that got past the

> Moderator I have no idea but I really hope that enormous bias is not

> being

> displayed here.

 

Ray,

 

Fair call, it was a bit rough I admit. I take personal responsibility

for losing it a little when Rich brought the " what people say about

others is really a mirror of what they think about themselves " jewel

out of the closet.

 

If what Rich says is actually true, I am the won who bounces

" constructive criticism with such 'jewels " of psycho-babble as " my

" primary defence " and " lack the 'ball's' to talk straight " .......

 

> I see a lot of words about professionalism written on this list but

> can anyone imagine the Medical

> profession talking to each other in such a way?

 

Yes, everyday; especially if an unqualified individual tries to speak

for their profession.

 

 

> Debate is one thing abuse is another,Rich is obviously a very gentle

> soul

> that is why I was defending him against ANY intellectual bullies on

> this

> list.

> Ray Ford

>

 

I agree Rich is a gentle soul, but I doubt he needs defending as he has

amply demonstrated with his conviction to replying that he is not

intimidated and does not need your protection.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Steve

[Guest guest]

On 20/09/2004, at 12:41 PM, Rich wrote:

 

> …. Another thing I learned is what people say about others is really a

mirror of what they think about themselves. That is why they " notice it " .

 

I ran across a nice paraphrase of this awhile ago:

" All criticism is auto-biography. "

(Attributed to George Bernard Shaw, found in a speech by Stokley Carmichael)

 

From a point of view in various meditative traditions/practices, this is a

very practical insight.

 

(Please note, Steve Slater, this is not directed at anyone or any argument

here.)

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the little note Chris;-)

 

I freely admit I got carried away at times but I have moved on and see

it as a valuable learning experience; and don't wish to dwell on it.

 

Personally I think that all criticism being auto-biographical is a bit

too sweeping........there are times when criticism is simply true and

justified. Perhaps if we develop an attachment it, and blow it out of

proportion (guilty on more than one occasion), it may show an

underlying insecurity.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Steve

 

On 22/09/2004, at 4:20 PM, wrote:

 

> On 20/09/2004, at 12:41 PM, Rich wrote:

>

>> …. Another thing I learned is what people say about others is really a

> mirror of what they think about themselves. That is why they " notice

> it " .

>

> I ran across a nice paraphrase of this awhile ago:

> " All criticism is auto-biography. "

> (Attributed to George Bernard Shaw, found in a speech by Stokley

> Carmichael)

>

> From a point of view in various meditative traditions/practices, this

> is a

> very practical insight.

>

> (Please note, Steve Slater, this is not directed at anyone or any

> argument

> here.)

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, all,

 

Q:

>>>My most substantial accomplishment is that I have sucessfully explored

and found a model of health that is truly preventative and can be

adopted by people/patients with the objective of avoiding visits to

doctors and other practitioners. Patients who are self-empowered do

not need " licenses " . This, I believe, is what the Neijing states is

>>the highest level of medicine.

 

 

A: Please pay more attention to his comments. There are at least 3 dimensions in

medicine. In my opinion, there are at least 3 medical systems.

structural level----conventional system, functional system----TCM herb medicine,

energy (QI) system---qigong, may there is more i.e. spiritual system... . The

something beyond tangible is the higher level.

 

Again, nothingness is the best Dr.. but it is not easy for every one to

understand, sometime takes a lot of time and effort to obtain. It is the Daoist

opinion " no-action is the best action "

 

Thank you!

 

Guigen Qigong

http://www.g321g.org guigen_qigong

Qigong Department, Xiyuan Hospital, Beijing.

 

-

Rich

Chinese Medicine

Monday, September 20, 2004 10:55 PM

Re: My Background

 

 

Hi Attilio,

 

I do not wish to get specific schools or teachers embroiled in this

controversy. This is my life - not theirs.

 

I am a TCM student, I am Taiji/Qigong teacher, and I have studied TCM

and medical qigong for many years with various teachers. I have my

opinions of TCM practitioners - particularly certain ones on this

list, but I am trying to be a good forum member and simply stating my

experiences and opinions - just as I have of various Western MDs over

the years who also have tried to " suppress " ideas that they are not

comfortable with.

 

Let me remind the professionals on this forum that it was largely due

to the efforts of " patients " over the last 25 years that the

profession of TCM even exists. An it is the continued work of

patients, through lobbying, financial support, referrels, that the

Chinese and other types of medicine continue to grow over the years.

It was the " patients " who first stood up to health monopolies here in

the U.S. and demanded a choice.

 

Over the last 25 years I have supported the TCM community here in

Illinois and most recently, this support has helped create a strong

enough atmosphere where here in Illinois, it is no longer necessary to

have a physicians referrel to receive treatment from an acupuncturist.

My contributions to the acceptance of here in my

community has been ample of the years through various endeavors.

 

I am personally quite shocked at the reaction of some of the members

of this forum. It reminds me of the reactions of MDs when I first

suggested to them, 25 years ago, that might have

something substantial to offer towards the health of the community.

Patients - as well as professionals - have a stake in their own health

and are entitled to speak about their experiences and suggest

alternatives. Throughout these conversations, I have merely stated my

experiences - and the reactions have been totally surprising. Mostly

" appeal to authority " or " attacks on character " - the same kind of

arguments I hear from Western MDs. If this type of argument had any

validity, I would still be using Western medicine today. Luckily they

do not.

 

 

With that said, I am indeed a full-time student working toward

Tuina/Qigong licensing here in Chicago with a background that includes:

 

I have attended:

 

-Courses in and Tuina in an accredited TCM school.

-Courses in Anatomy, Phsyiology, , Shiatsu,

Business/Ethics, etc. all part of a standard AOBTA course curriculum

for becoming a certified practitioner. My objective is to provide

tuina/qigong services in a similar fashion as my teacher.

-Apprenticing with different Tuina practitioners for three years

-Studied Taiji with Professor H. for 5 years

-Studied Taiji/Qigong with Master G. for 15 years

-Teaching Taiji/Qigong for 15 years

-Studied Yoga for 25 years

-Studied Medical Qigong as an apprentice for three years

-Taught taiji and qigong for 15 years

 

My most substantial accomplishment is that I have sucessfully explored

and found a model of health that is truly preventative and can be

adopted by people/patients with the objective of avoiding visits to

doctors and other practitioners. Patients who are self-empowered do

not need " licenses " . This, I believe, is what the Neijing states is

the highest level of medicine.

 

Throughout my discussions on this forum, I have maintained a civil

attitude and have attempted to discuss " ideas " and " methods " . Just

like I did 25 years ago when I first began discussing these ideas and

methods with Western trained MDs in similar forums - and have

continued doing so for. I even remember a phone call on talk-radio

when I debated an MD about whether heart conditions can be reversed -

this was when Ornish's publications were first released and now 20

years later had become popularly accepted.

 

" Attacking a person " or " appealing to authority " have always proven to

be poor strategy for supporting an argument or an idea. Here in

Illinois, patients have prevailed and now have an opportunity to

receive acupunture treatment without a physician's referral because of

patients and practitioners who came up with clear arguments and not

just attacks. If " professionals " do not have the time or inclination

to discuss ideas with " non-professionals " then I really question their

" professionalism " . I have run encountered exactly the same conduct

from Western-trained MDs for 25 years. :-)

 

As I have indicated, I will limit my comments on this forum to Tuina

and Qigong and will look for other forums to discuss the nature of TCM

vs. Classical . I am certainly not alone with these

concerns but I will discuss them elsewhere.

 

Regards,

Rich

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Guigen,

 

> Again, nothingness is the best Dr.. but it is not easy for every one

to understand, sometime takes a lot of time and effort to obtain. It

is the Daoist opinion " no-action is the best action "

>

> Thank you!

>

> Guigen Qigong

 

Thank you for your kind comments and your further eludcidation. I

always find your thoughts very interesting and take them to heart. In

my own practice, I am learning (slowly) how to be " present " yet doing

" nothing " . The feeling comes and goes - but I am learning. :-) Thank

you for your insights. I am looking forward to reading more of your

postings.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Rich,

 

Here is very good place for us to learn from each other. Thanks to Attilio and

other moderators making this group running actively.

 

Guigen Qigong

 

 

-

Rich

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, September 23, 2004 5:13 AM

Re: My Background

 

 

Dear Guigen,

 

> Again, nothingness is the best Dr.. but it is not easy for every one

to understand, sometime takes a lot of time and effort to obtain. It

is the Daoist opinion " no-action is the best action "

>

> Thank you!

>

> Guigen Qigong

 

Thank you for your kind comments and your further eludcidation. I

always find your thoughts very interesting and take them to heart. In

my own practice, I am learning (slowly) how to be " present " yet doing

" nothing " . The feeling comes and goes - but I am learning. :-) Thank

you for your insights. I am looking forward to reading more of your

postings.

 

Regards,

Rich