Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Hi Ray, >So finally to locate release > and clear so many physical problems and effect the underlyingg viscera > requires NO diagnosis UNLESS you really want to make one up but it doesn't > require one.This may be hard to swallow after years of honest study > spectacular results are possible. > > Ray Ford Yes, this is what I first observed and realized upon observing my pracititioner " cure " so many cases that acupunture and herbs were unable to resolve - within my family and many dozens of friends and acquaintenances who have since availed themselves of the services of this same tuina(anmo)/qigong practitioner. BTW, the books of Mark Seem and Kiko Matsumoto have had a very profound affect on not only the way I view , but the way I view life. It is a shame that there books are not an integral part of the TCM curriculum. In fact, when I first mentioned to one TCM teacher that I found Mark Seem's books interesting (along with Worsley), he " struck back " and said they they were " fringe " and maybe I shouldn't be reading them. :-) But I read them nonetheless and I very much like where their writings have taken me. For those who are interested, I can highly, highly recommend, " Hara Diagonsis " by Matsumoto and Birch, and " Bodymind Energetics " and " Acupunture Imaging " by Mark Seem. They are applicable to students, professionals, and laypeople alike. Very readable and immensely interesting and informative. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 On 21/09/2004, at 4:02 AM, rayford wrote: > STEVE The issue has nothing to do with being TCM or non-TCM. The > issue is > about knocking TCM without actually understanding the system of TCM is > to begin with. > RAY Although you did seem to take it personally > Ray, Not personally; but I will stand up for what my profession is and is not and will challenge those who misrepresent it all day long. If necessary my tone will gradually become more aggressive until my profession is protected. You also seem to take your profession seriously; as you demonstrate by your concern and growing aggression in this thread. > STEVE Personally, I don't want this list to be restrictive to ANY type > of > professional healthcare. In fact, I would be very interested to learn > more about the " Japanese " acupuncture styles as I have found that > clinically; the TCM style acupuncture I initially trained in > (particularly as practised in China) is not well tolerated by many of > us lao wai....and have therefore reduced needle size, depth and > manipulation in a majority of my patients with no noticeable loss in > clinical effectiveness. > > RAY So maybe you are no longer practicing TCM when you practice this > style > of acupuncture? > I am adjusting my treatment to suit a patients constitution to ensure the best clinical results. Nothing more, nothing less. I am adhering to the theories of professional TCM as I was taught. Not all of my instructors in China had an almost pathological attachment to 3 cun needles and agressive manipulation.....but many did. Actually, my mentors here have adjusted their needle technique and choice radically since practicing in Australia also. > STEVE I don't think I ever suggested Kiiko Matsumoto or any other > practitioner has the wrong idea on anything; just a certain individual > without professional training who continually .....no no, won't go > there again. > > RAY Its the way that is conveyed that counts > What I conveyed was annoyance with a non-practitioner and stated that they did not have a sufficient knowledge base to claim what they claimed about TCM. You are getting your panties in a knot out of context once again. > > > STEVE This is not about Rich's personal area of expertise; it is about > the > boundaries on this list not being stepped over. > > RAY Boundaries are just that.Rich has been saying this stuff for > months.You > obviously protect those boundaries. > And now you protect Rich from me? > STEVE You don't need to state your background, but it is impressive! > Only > one > individuals background was questioned, and it turns out to be for very > good reason in the eyes of more than a few on this list. > RAY well done!!! > > STEVE Incidentally, do you currently practice in Australia? If so, you > would > > know that it is also a legal responsibility to have a reasonably > complete patient record with signs/symptoms, a working diagnosis, > syndrome differentiation, matching treatment principle and treatment > prescription for each patient visit. This is the STANDARD for a > registered professional of TCM in Australia. > > RAY At NO point did i ever say that i did not keep records!Nor did I > say > that i did not know the standard laws as a practitioner.I was giving an > opinion about what is possible about TREATMENT not what I do. > I never suggested you didn't keep records. At no point did I question your professionalism and if you felt I did; I apologise. I stated that sufficient records including a diagnosis are requirements for TCM practice here. I never suggested you didn't follow these requirements. > STEVE Diagnosis, may not apply to other therapies, and I was not > suggesting > that it did or would be unethical in OTHER therapies. However, I do > find it hard to believe any professional health care provider would > treat a patient without a diagnosis, at least in the patient > record.............that would do your profession no favours and will > land your butt in a WHOLE heap of trouble if a patient ever took you to > court for malpractice or injury compensation. > > RAY Well Steve thanks for the advice. > Your sarcasm is taken on-board and you can add my name next to Z'ev's on the list of people who request that you don't don't represent their positions. Best wishes, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 On 21/09/2004, at 12:55 AM, Rich wrote: > > Hi Attilio, > > I do not wish to get specific schools or teachers embroiled in this > controversy. This is my life - not theirs. > > I am a TCM student, I am Taiji/Qigong teacher, and I have studied TCM > and medical qigong for many years with various teachers....... > With that said, I am indeed a full-time student working toward > Tuina/Qigong licensing here in Chicago with a background that includes: > > I have attended: > > -Courses in and Tuina in an accredited TCM school. > -Courses in Anatomy, Phsyiology, , Shiatsu, > Business/Ethics, etc. all part of a standard AOBTA course curriculum > for becoming a certified practitioner. My objective is to provide > tuina/qigong services in a similar fashion as my teacher. > -Apprenticing with different Tuina practitioners for three years > -Studied Taiji with Professor H. for 5 years > -Studied Taiji/Qigong with Master G. for 15 years > -Teaching Taiji/Qigong for 15 years > -Studied Yoga for 25 years > -Studied Medical Qigong as an apprentice for three years > -Taught taiji and qigong for 15 years > Rich, Thanks for finally being a little specific about your experience and training. " Courses in chinese medicine " is terribly vague but I see you have attended some units in a standard curriculum for becoming a certified practitioner of something. Forgive me if I am mistaken; but I assume from this list that you did not actually graduate from any of these schools or actually become a certified practitioner? Attending is not graduating; and graduating is necessary to obtain a professional qualification last time I checked. All the above suggest you are a keen student but do NOT have any formal professional qualifications in Chinese herbal medicine or TCM or acupuncture or any professionally recognised health care system? If I am correct with these assumptions.........I say again that you are not qualified to comment or represent the profession of TCM in the areas that you have been. This not a personal vendetta; just getting the facts clear so we can all move on. I look forward to reading about your qigong/taiji contributions to this list. (no sacrasm intended). Best Wishes, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Hi all, > > Not personally; but I will stand up for what my profession is and is > not and will challenge those who misrepresent it all day long. If > necessary my tone will gradually become more aggressive until my > profession is protected. I have heard these sentiments before - only they were and still are voiced by MDs who believe that acuptunture, herbalism, tuina and qigong is just a bunch of " quackery " - and they are/were trying to " protect " their profession - i.e. medical health care - from " quacks " . > What I conveyed was annoyance with a non-practitioner and stated >that > they did not have a sufficient knowledge base to claim what they > claimed about TCM. You are getting your panties in a knot out of > context once again. Interestingly, when acupuncturists, such as yourself, were seeking support for their profession from patients, such as myself, over the last 25 years, I don't recall being asked whether I had " a sufficient knowledge base " to form an opinion and voice that opinion concerning acupunture to state legislatures. :-) As a " patient " , over the last 25 years I have been very, very active in both the study, discussion, and referral of friends and acquaintences to Chinese medicine. For 25 years I have been recommending this modality - from a position of knowledge - to friends and acquaintences, help making it possible for TCM to be recognized in my state as a standalone profession. I believe I have an equal stake and an equal voice - as well as more than enough knowledge to discuss this subject given my history and experiences. Just like 25 years ago, I am quite able to judge what is working best for myself, my family, and my friends. I am not just a disinterested bystander. There is nothing that has been said on this forum that I have found to beyond my level of comprehension. Far from it. I do recognize differences in perspective - which others may or may not. Chinese medicine has always been a medicine of the " people " , utilizing nomenclature and concepts that have been designed to empower people to manage their own health - hence the Classics. In ancient times, the " barefoot doctor " was not licensed - but still quite respected for what he/she did. They still exist today all around China and deserve just as much respect today as they did 1000s of years ago. Will TCM acupuncturists and herbalists soon be allies with the pharmaceutical companies in attempting to limit access to consumers to herbs on health store shelves? How far are TCM acupunturists and herbalists willing to go to " protect " their profession. This will be interesting to watch. However, as a student of TCM within the modalities of Tuina/Anmo and Medical Qigong, I have gladly agreed to abide by Attilio's guidelines, and I understand he is free to delete any messages that he feels are not within his guidelines. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 _____ Rich [rfinkelstein] Interestingly, when acupuncturists, such as yourself, were seeking support for their profession from patients, such as myself, over the last 25 years, I don't recall being asked whether I had " a sufficient knowledge base " to form an opinion and voice that opinion concerning acupunture to state legislatures. :-) As a " patient " , over the last 25 years I have been very, very active in both the study, discussion, and referral of friends and acquaintences to Chinese medicine. For 25 years I have been recommending this modality - from a position of knowledge - to friends and acquaintences, help making it possible for TCM to be recognized in my state as a standalone profession. I believe I have an equal stake and an equal voice - as well as more than enough knowledge to discuss this subject given my history and experiences. [Jason] Can I have some of what you are smoking? <http://us.adserver./l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=grphealth /S=:HM/A=2128215/rand=730503020> I personally could care less how much you have supported 'our' profession, this does not give you adequate knowledge to make such judgments and claims as you have, nor make you an equal to a professional practitioner. -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Hold on a minute. . . . What 'barefoot doctor' are you talking about? This particular form of health care practice, an amalgam of folk medicine, Western medicine, and some Chinese medical methods, is a modern innovation from the early days of Communist China. Apparently, this designation no longer exists. Perhaps you are talking about itinerant healers who travelled from place to place, ringing their bells and selling their remedies? A different thing entirely. On Sep 20, 2004, at 1:59 PM, Rich wrote: > In ancient times, the > " barefoot doctor " was not licensed - but still quite respected for > what he/she did. They still exist today all around China and deserve > just as much respect today as they did 1000s of years ago. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 This is absurd. I don't think anyone professes such a fate. If we had, however, some say in what health food stores and multi-marketers were selling, perhaps ma huang wouldn't have been banned in the US. It was abuses by those professions, not ours, that led to the ban. On Sep 20, 2004, at 1:59 PM, Rich wrote: > Will TCM acupuncturists and herbalists soon be allies with the > pharmaceutical companies in attempting to limit access to consumers to > herbs on health store shelves? How far are TCM acupunturists and > herbalists willing to go to " protect " their profession. This will be > interesting to watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Different issue, Rich. Don't impose this example on this discussion. It is what is called a 'red herring', using a misleading argument. MD's are protecting their 'turf', their economic interests, not their conceptual structure. It seems that both you are trying to paint myself and others as " anti-qigong " or " anti-Japanese acupuncture " , and that just isn't true. I just want to see Chinese medicine described accurately, by people who know what they are talking about. On Sep 20, 2004, at 1:59 PM, Rich wrote: > I have heard these sentiments before - only they were and still are > voiced by MDs who believe that acuptunture, herbalism, tuina and > qigong is just a bunch of " quackery " - and they are/were trying to > " protect " their profession - i.e. medical health care - from " quacks " . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 My background: East Asian Medicine practitioner since 1995 and educator since 1998. Licensed in Illinois and Florida. Extensive specialty training in Japanese acupuncture and moxibustion. Taught a full course load for two ACAOM-accredited programs, Midwest College 1999 -2002 and Southeast Institute (where I was also Clinic Director) 2002-2003. Taught for Toyohari association 1998-2000. Ongoing teaching in continuing education and bodywork certification programs. Teaching experience includes TCM theory, diagnosis, point location, acupuncture treatment strategy, and Chinese herbal materia medica and formulas, as well as clinic instruction in acupuncture and herbal medicine. Also continuing education in various forms of Japanese acupuncture. Contributor and associate editor for North American Journal of Oriental Medicine, with articles published worldwide in English and Japanese. Special areas of professional interest include Japanese medicine, palpatory approaches to acupuncture and osteopathy-derived bodywork. Why am I telling you all this? Because Rich is currently enrolled in a course in specifically TCM theory that I am currently teaching at a shiatsu school in the Chicago area. The course is designed to bring the school's curriculum up to AOBTA standards so the graduates can work professionally in Illinois, which has a pending massage therapy license. Rich has shown himself to be an enthusiastic and very knowledgeable student, yet has been nothing but respectful towards me and the class members. He has contributed positively to the class discussion, asked focused and well considered questions and even brought up points I had missed or glossed over in my lecture. I do not consider his knowledge of TCM to be complete; for that matter my own knowledge is woefully incomplete. We are all in process here. If Rich is to be faulted for his enthusiasm, strong opinions and readiness to speak, well, all I can say is that there are many on this list who should be reluctant to cast stones. Rich brings a unique perspective to the discussion, and has what many would consider to be an optimal training background: both access to standard academic TCM through myself and others as well as a close relationship/apprenticeship with a Chinese practitioner of several decades experience. I debated with myself on whether I should get involved with all this list brouhaha, as I consider it a colossal waste of precious time and energy. Rest assured that with all the academics present on this list there is more than enough balance to any perceived shortcomings in Rich's understanding of TCM and I see very little reason to justify this whole burn-the-heretic scenario. I personally think the discussion should come to close and we should move on to something more constructive. Robert Hayden, L.Ac., M.S.O.M., Dipl.Ac. & C.H., A.P. > > On 21/09/2004, at 12:55 AM, Rich wrote: > > > > > Hi Attilio, > > > > I do not wish to get specific schools or teachers embroiled in this > > controversy. This is my life - not theirs. > > > > I am a TCM student, I am Taiji/Qigong teacher, and I have studied TCM > > and medical qigong for many years with various teachers....... > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Zev, If I misrepresent your position I apologise,I can only go on what I see in print,in one of your previous posts you did mention pressing points.Plenty of Chinese physicians are now palpating the channels and plenty are NOW admitting that this is what they have been doing for a long time.Some i have met are being influenced by western material such as Travell and Baldry dispute this if you like but I have seen the books in their hands. The Channels are not floating in a vacuum they actually flow in and between muscles amongst other places.Knowledge of these muscles is imperative to an acupuncturist IMO,how else do we talk to our fellow medical colleagues?How do we know WHAT we are palpating.Perhaps Chinese people have a different anatomy and physiology?Anatomy MUST be included if not in the original course then an acupuncturist must study this by themselves IMO. Ray Ford ---- Chinese Medicine Tuesday, 21 September 2004 3:53:51 AM Chinese Medicine Re: My Background I am sorry, but I must stop asking you to misrepresent my position or what I say in print. I am presently reading material from a Beijing physician who palpates channels and practices in a Nan Jing tradition of acupuncture. If you want to include western anatomy and physiology as a requirement, you are going into the realm of western medicine. On Sep 20, 2004, at 10:19 AM, rayford wrote: > Palpation of the muscle and fascia,not just " pressing points " as Zev > mentioned is not part of TCM .After four years of TCM training I went > to > Sydney University for two years(part time)to REALLY learn about > anatomy.That > was some time ago things have changed.To locate and release tight > restricted > muscles and fascia requires an intimate knowledge of those tissues not > just > points that is not enough or the pressing of those points. Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 ---- Chinese Medicine Tuesday, 21 September 2004 8:44:10 AM Chinese Medicine Re: My Background Steve wrote This not a personal vendetta; just getting the facts clear so we can all move on. When I noticed Rich being told that he " had no balls " and was talking psycho babble " is when I waded into this thread.How that got past the Moderator I have no idea but I really hope that enormous bias is not being displayed here.A while ago Lonny was reprimanded for using the word EGO,I was personally VERY interested in what he had to say as I have read two of his books and loved them both,he has now long gone which is a pity IMO.I guess he wasn't using the correct lingo either,not TCM enough. Do we really want to speak to peers in this way?I see a lot of words about professionalism written on this list but can anyone imagine the Medical profession talking to each other in such a way? Debate is one thing abuse is another,Rich is obviously a very gentle soul that is why I was defending him against ANY intellectual bullies on this list. Ray Ford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " Rich " <rfinkelstein@a...> wrote: > Yes, this is what I first observed and realized upon observing my > pracititioner " cure " so many cases that acupunture and herbs were > unable to resolve - within my family and many dozens of friends and > acquaintenances who have since availed themselves of the services of > this same tuina(anmo)/qigong practitioner. > > BTW, the books of Mark Seem and Kiko Matsumoto have had a very > profound affect on not only the way I view , but the > way I view life. It is a shame that there books are not an integral > part of the TCM curriculum. In fact, when I first mentioned to one TCM > teacher that I found Mark Seem's books interesting (along with > Worsley), he " struck back " and said they they were " fringe " and maybe > I shouldn't be reading them. :-) But I read them nonetheless and I > very much like where their writings have taken me. For those who are > interested, I can highly, highly recommend, " Hara Diagonsis " by > Matsumoto and Birch, and " Bodymind Energetics " and " Acupunture > Imaging " by Mark Seem. They are applicable to students, professionals, > and laypeople alike. Very readable and immensely interesting and > informative. > > Regards, > Rich Hi Rich, It may be your own experience that QiGong and Tuina is superior to herbal medicine and accupunture. Perhaps QiGong and Tuina are more suitable for you. Perhaps you are lucky to meet an expert QiGong master. However, it cannot prove that QiGong and Tuina are indeed superior for the following reasons: 1. It does not prove anything from a statistical perspective. To establish any mathematical basis, you need to provide credible statistical result, not just words like " my family and all my friends think so " or " my teacher cures so many cases that herbs/accuputure are unable to solve " . 2. QiGong requires a master/teacher who can constantly advise you and QiGong require a lot more personal effort to learn. Herbal medicine and accuputure are more scalable, practical and acceptable for busy city workers who do not have time and tendency to learn QiGong. 3. If QiGong/Tuina are indeed is the only way to go. Herbal medicine/Accupuncture would have died in the long history of chinese medicine by means of natural selection. 4. One must take into consideration the historical context why herbal medicine and accupunture are given priority. The 1st TCM classic is Neijing (Ling Su, Su Wen) where Ling Su is dedicated for Accupuncture and Su Wen for theories on TCM. Subequently, Zhang Ji's SHL shifts its foucs to herbal medicine, pattern differentiation (Zheng diagnosis) to treat " San Han " . Later in Jing Dynasty, Li Dong Yuan made his " Bi Wei Lun " to treat disease arise due to weak digestion system - again the focus in herbal medicine. According to studies, Neijing is written during the 7 Warrior States and SHL in the late Han dynasty and " Bi Wei Lun " in Jing Dynasty. Many wars were fought during these periods with a lot of sick, injured and dying victims. It is difficult to see how QiGong and Tuina can be practical during such period of time. Herbal medicine and accupuncture offer tremendous value to save lives at such times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 ---- Chinese Medicine Tuesday, 21 September 2004 2:18:26 AM Chinese Medicine Re: My Background Steve Wrote When I and others on this list say " TCM " we are generally referring to Chinese herbal medicine as currently practised in China. If you didn't know this; now you do. Thus, I stand by everything I said to be true. I really did not realise that TCM when mentioned on this list was GENERALLY referring to Chinese Herbal medicine now I do too.I didn't realise that this was the definition but it does make sense now,this I believe is biased and wrong and a narrow minded interpretation.What about the thousands of TCM practitioners in China who practice only acupuncture?You are joking right? Ray Ford On 21/09/2004, at 2:00 AM, Rich wrote: > Dear Steve, > >> I was the one who said it would be unethical to treat without a TCM >> diagnosis.......and I stand by that BECAUSE I was refereeing to the >> practice of TCM, not any other modality. Practising TCM does require a >> diagnosis.........otherwise it is not TCM. > > This is absolutely wrong. As I have said many times, the practitioner > who I am studying with worked and taught Anmo/Tuina and Qigong in TCM > hospitals and never did any " diagnosis " . Textbooks simply do not cover > this topic. The texts that are available here in the U.S and studied > in TCM schools represent a fraction of what is actually practiced in > China. China has progressed - and in some cases regressed - in many > different directions over the last 30 years when some of the TCM > texts, which are still being used today, were first written and > translated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 On 21/09/2004, at 9:37 AM, wrote: > _____ > > Rich [rfinkelstein] > > > Interestingly, when acupuncturists, such as yourself, were seeking > support for their profession from patients, such as myself, over the > last 25 years, I don't recall being asked whether I had " a sufficient > knowledge base " to form an opinion and voice that opinion concerning > acupunture to state legislatures. :-) As a " patient " , over the last 25 > years I have been very, very active in both the study, discussion, and > referral of friends and acquaintences to Chinese medicine. For 25 > years I have been recommending this modality - from a position of > knowledge - to friends and acquaintences, help making it possible for > TCM to be recognized in my state as a standalone profession. > Rich, I can guarantee you that your support had no affect on the acceptance of my profession in Australia. The risk/benefit ratio and professional education standards of practitioners is what allows acupuncture to be practised here. Legislation is aimed at protecting the public from the unqualified such as yourself. Legislating professional education requirement and practice standards is designed to increase the chances of a patient being treated safely, ethically and professionally. Any patient should have freedom of choice in regards to who they choose to be their health professional. It has NOTHING to do with your knowledge or lack thereof in promoting (or misrepresenting the) benefits of any system of health-care......it has EVERYTHING to do with your freedom to seek treatment from a practitioner as you see fit. None of this was influenced by what ANY patient or unqualified individual had to say about the theories on any type of Chinese Medicine. > I believe I have an equal stake and an equal voice - as well as more > than enough knowledge to discuss this subject given my history and > experiences. > In my professional opinion that you do not have an equal voice nor sufficient knowledge to discuss or represent the TCM profession in any useful manner. But that is only my opinion, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Hi Ray, Yes, your quite right. 'Had no balls' and other such comments should of been edited by the moderators, I apologise. As for Lon, he comes and goes when he wishes. After I told him to stop discussing the ego, coz I personally can't stand it and see no point in it, we had a lengthily off list discussion and came to a happy agreement. Kind regards Attilio rayford [rford] 21 September 2004 04:44 Chinese Medicine Re: My Background When I noticed Rich being told that he " had no balls " and was talking psycho babble " is when I waded into this thread.How that got past the Moderator I have no idea but I really hope that enormous bias is not being displayed here.A while ago Lonny was reprimanded for using the word EGO,I was personally VERY interested in what he had to say as I have read two of his books and loved them both,he has now long gone which is a pity IMO.I guess he wasn't using the correct lingo either,not TCM enough. Ray Ford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 On 21/09/2004, at 1:44 PM, rayford wrote: > When I noticed Rich being told that he " had no balls " and was talking > psycho babble " is when I waded into this thread.How that got past the > Moderator I have no idea but I really hope that enormous bias is not > being > displayed here. Ray, Fair call, it was a bit rough I admit. I take personal responsibility for losing it a little when Rich brought the " what people say about others is really a mirror of what they think about themselves " jewel out of the closet. If what Rich says is actually true, I am the won who bounces " constructive criticism with such 'jewels " of psycho-babble as " my " primary defence " and " lack the 'ball's' to talk straight " ....... > I see a lot of words about professionalism written on this list but > can anyone imagine the Medical > profession talking to each other in such a way? Yes, everyday; especially if an unqualified individual tries to speak for their profession. > Debate is one thing abuse is another,Rich is obviously a very gentle > soul > that is why I was defending him against ANY intellectual bullies on > this > list. > Ray Ford > I agree Rich is a gentle soul, but I doubt he needs defending as he has amply demonstrated with his conviction to replying that he is not intimidated and does not need your protection. Best Wishes, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 On 20/09/2004, at 12:41 PM, Rich wrote: > …. Another thing I learned is what people say about others is really a mirror of what they think about themselves. That is why they " notice it " . I ran across a nice paraphrase of this awhile ago: " All criticism is auto-biography. " (Attributed to George Bernard Shaw, found in a speech by Stokley Carmichael) From a point of view in various meditative traditions/practices, this is a very practical insight. (Please note, Steve Slater, this is not directed at anyone or any argument here.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Thanks for the little note Chris;-) I freely admit I got carried away at times but I have moved on and see it as a valuable learning experience; and don't wish to dwell on it. Personally I think that all criticism being auto-biographical is a bit too sweeping........there are times when criticism is simply true and justified. Perhaps if we develop an attachment it, and blow it out of proportion (guilty on more than one occasion), it may show an underlying insecurity. Best Wishes, Steve On 22/09/2004, at 4:20 PM, wrote: > On 20/09/2004, at 12:41 PM, Rich wrote: > >> …. Another thing I learned is what people say about others is really a > mirror of what they think about themselves. That is why they " notice > it " . > > I ran across a nice paraphrase of this awhile ago: > " All criticism is auto-biography. " > (Attributed to George Bernard Shaw, found in a speech by Stokley > Carmichael) > > From a point of view in various meditative traditions/practices, this > is a > very practical insight. > > (Please note, Steve Slater, this is not directed at anyone or any > argument > here.) > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Hi, all, Q: >>>My most substantial accomplishment is that I have sucessfully explored and found a model of health that is truly preventative and can be adopted by people/patients with the objective of avoiding visits to doctors and other practitioners. Patients who are self-empowered do not need " licenses " . This, I believe, is what the Neijing states is >>the highest level of medicine. A: Please pay more attention to his comments. There are at least 3 dimensions in medicine. In my opinion, there are at least 3 medical systems. structural level----conventional system, functional system----TCM herb medicine, energy (QI) system---qigong, may there is more i.e. spiritual system... . The something beyond tangible is the higher level. Again, nothingness is the best Dr.. but it is not easy for every one to understand, sometime takes a lot of time and effort to obtain. It is the Daoist opinion " no-action is the best action " Thank you! Guigen Qigong http://www.g321g.org guigen_qigong Qigong Department, Xiyuan Hospital, Beijing. - Rich Chinese Medicine Monday, September 20, 2004 10:55 PM Re: My Background Hi Attilio, I do not wish to get specific schools or teachers embroiled in this controversy. This is my life - not theirs. I am a TCM student, I am Taiji/Qigong teacher, and I have studied TCM and medical qigong for many years with various teachers. I have my opinions of TCM practitioners - particularly certain ones on this list, but I am trying to be a good forum member and simply stating my experiences and opinions - just as I have of various Western MDs over the years who also have tried to " suppress " ideas that they are not comfortable with. Let me remind the professionals on this forum that it was largely due to the efforts of " patients " over the last 25 years that the profession of TCM even exists. An it is the continued work of patients, through lobbying, financial support, referrels, that the Chinese and other types of medicine continue to grow over the years. It was the " patients " who first stood up to health monopolies here in the U.S. and demanded a choice. Over the last 25 years I have supported the TCM community here in Illinois and most recently, this support has helped create a strong enough atmosphere where here in Illinois, it is no longer necessary to have a physicians referrel to receive treatment from an acupuncturist. My contributions to the acceptance of here in my community has been ample of the years through various endeavors. I am personally quite shocked at the reaction of some of the members of this forum. It reminds me of the reactions of MDs when I first suggested to them, 25 years ago, that might have something substantial to offer towards the health of the community. Patients - as well as professionals - have a stake in their own health and are entitled to speak about their experiences and suggest alternatives. Throughout these conversations, I have merely stated my experiences - and the reactions have been totally surprising. Mostly " appeal to authority " or " attacks on character " - the same kind of arguments I hear from Western MDs. If this type of argument had any validity, I would still be using Western medicine today. Luckily they do not. With that said, I am indeed a full-time student working toward Tuina/Qigong licensing here in Chicago with a background that includes: I have attended: -Courses in and Tuina in an accredited TCM school. -Courses in Anatomy, Phsyiology, , Shiatsu, Business/Ethics, etc. all part of a standard AOBTA course curriculum for becoming a certified practitioner. My objective is to provide tuina/qigong services in a similar fashion as my teacher. -Apprenticing with different Tuina practitioners for three years -Studied Taiji with Professor H. for 5 years -Studied Taiji/Qigong with Master G. for 15 years -Teaching Taiji/Qigong for 15 years -Studied Yoga for 25 years -Studied Medical Qigong as an apprentice for three years -Taught taiji and qigong for 15 years My most substantial accomplishment is that I have sucessfully explored and found a model of health that is truly preventative and can be adopted by people/patients with the objective of avoiding visits to doctors and other practitioners. Patients who are self-empowered do not need " licenses " . This, I believe, is what the Neijing states is the highest level of medicine. Throughout my discussions on this forum, I have maintained a civil attitude and have attempted to discuss " ideas " and " methods " . Just like I did 25 years ago when I first began discussing these ideas and methods with Western trained MDs in similar forums - and have continued doing so for. I even remember a phone call on talk-radio when I debated an MD about whether heart conditions can be reversed - this was when Ornish's publications were first released and now 20 years later had become popularly accepted. " Attacking a person " or " appealing to authority " have always proven to be poor strategy for supporting an argument or an idea. Here in Illinois, patients have prevailed and now have an opportunity to receive acupunture treatment without a physician's referral because of patients and practitioners who came up with clear arguments and not just attacks. If " professionals " do not have the time or inclination to discuss ideas with " non-professionals " then I really question their " professionalism " . I have run encountered exactly the same conduct from Western-trained MDs for 25 years. :-) As I have indicated, I will limit my comments on this forum to Tuina and Qigong and will look for other forums to discuss the nature of TCM vs. Classical . I am certainly not alone with these concerns but I will discuss them elsewhere. Regards, Rich http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Dear Guigen, > Again, nothingness is the best Dr.. but it is not easy for every one to understand, sometime takes a lot of time and effort to obtain. It is the Daoist opinion " no-action is the best action " > > Thank you! > > Guigen Qigong Thank you for your kind comments and your further eludcidation. I always find your thoughts very interesting and take them to heart. In my own practice, I am learning (slowly) how to be " present " yet doing " nothing " . The feeling comes and goes - but I am learning. :-) Thank you for your insights. I am looking forward to reading more of your postings. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Thank you, Rich, Here is very good place for us to learn from each other. Thanks to Attilio and other moderators making this group running actively. Guigen Qigong - Rich Chinese Medicine Thursday, September 23, 2004 5:13 AM Re: My Background Dear Guigen, > Again, nothingness is the best Dr.. but it is not easy for every one to understand, sometime takes a lot of time and effort to obtain. It is the Daoist opinion " no-action is the best action " > > Thank you! > > Guigen Qigong Thank you for your kind comments and your further eludcidation. I always find your thoughts very interesting and take them to heart. In my own practice, I am learning (slowly) how to be " present " yet doing " nothing " . The feeling comes and goes - but I am learning. :-) Thank you for your insights. I am looking forward to reading more of your postings. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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