Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Hi all, I guess there are some members who are really interested in my background. I am a former computer analyst who is now in semi-retirement, at the age of 53, enjoying a very full and reboust life. I love to dance (swing, samba, salsa, ballroowm, etc.) and sing (especially the songs of the 50s and 60s), and play lots of sports when I can find someone who has time to play including tennis, table tennis, basketball. I also enjoy chess, backgammon, bridge. While I am 53, my doctor says I have the body of a 30 year old. I enjoy life, but I don't take it all that seriously - especially myself. I find that seriousness creates stagnation and stagnation slows me down - and I like to move. :-) I've practiced yoga, qigong, taiji for over 25 years and yoga for about the same amount the time. My practice has gone in many directions and has certainly evolved over time. One of the things I have learned is that in life everyone is equal. We are all here to learn lessons - and no one is any further along than anyone else. We are all students - and when we have questions, the teacher will appear. I teach these arts - but for me it is no big deal. It is one of the things I do in my life and hopefully it allows others to enjoy their life more - and learn what they are here to learn. Otherwise I enjoy my own practice, and continue to learn what I am here to learn. Hopefully, I complete my learning before I die. :-) If not, I guess I have an infinite number of lives to do it. Or, I have no more lives. Either way, it is the same. :-) As I disovered the nature of qi - by experience, not through books - I became more interested in who qi creates and maintain life and that brought me in direct involvement with - the classical medicine, not TCM. Of course, I have been going to TCM pracitioners using the popular TCM approaches for over 15 years and through that process I have learn alot about what works and what doesn't work - and then I tried to figure out why. Why? Because that is what interests me - understanding the nature of qi, how it creates life and how it maintains life. It is quite interesting, but it is a different topic onto itself and probably a different forum, since this is a TCM forum. Over the years I continued to read and study, on my own and in schools. My library contains most of the classics and current TCM books, but in order to " declutter " my mind and home, I have rid myself of most of these books except for a few which I use to refer to whenever I " discover " a new idea. Some of my favorite books are little treasures that I have found in our local bookstores which will never get to the top 100 on the TCM bestseller list, but I don't think they are meant to. They are there for students when they are ready. When the student is ready the book will appear. :-) " Chan Mi Gong " is a one of these little treasures. So simple and yet so profound. I believe there is much merit to what Mark Seem writes about TCM. I certainly have enjoyed his books enormously for the insight they have brought to me. And while I am at it, I " Who Can Ride the Dragon " had an equally profound effect - if for nothing more than the insight it brought to me about the nature of yin, yang, and qi. I have taken courses in all of the required areas of including Tuina, , Anatomy and Physiology, and Shiatsu, etc. But by far and away, the lessons I have taken from my qigong/anmo pracititioner have been the most profound. For in these lessons, I have learned how really simple life and health can be. I never understood how to " balance " anything that was in motion part of an " open system " , until I realized there was no need to balance. The " body of qi " naturally balances itself when all the gates and channels are " unblocked " . Or as my Chinese anatomy teacher recently said - " The more I study , the more I realize it is all about cleaning a house - our house. " While he did not say this explicitly, this surely means our bodies, minds, and spirit. So here I am, enjoying life. I am pretty much self-maintaining at this point. I do not use pharmaceuticals or herbs. I do not need anyone to needle me. I do not worry about " old age " or the pains of growing old. What I do need, is to keep cleaning house - my house - and learn new ways to do this. I have enjoyed learning lots of new things on this forum. Quickly to my mind are the wonderful posts on qigong and tuina. I have thanked Brian already for being so kind by lending me " Rooted in Spirit " by Laree and for introducing me to the work of Tom Tam. There have been others who stepped forward and offered to help me and I thank them also. Dr. Kaikobad always tickles my fancy and I have also received many messages off the board which I have found very interesting. I am thankful to all those who have helped me learn something new. I am very, very much looking forward to reading more from Guigen, because I am sure he will increase my perspective of qigong and its relationship to health. So this is who I am. I will not ask for the bios of the people who are so interested in mine. Your messages and their content speak enough to satisfy my curiosity about you. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Really Rich, A professional patient who has learnt to breathe well and taken a few classes in various areas of alternative medicine does not qualify as a professional healthcare provider. Please get a grip, Steve On 20/09/2004, at 9:53 AM, Rich wrote: > > Hi all, > > I guess there are some members who are really interested in my > background. > > I am a former computer analyst who is now in semi-retirement, at the > age of 53, enjoying a very full and reboust life. I love to dance > (swing, samba, salsa, ballroowm, etc.) and sing (especially the songs > of the 50s and 60s), and play lots of sports when I can find someone > who has time to play including tennis, table tennis, basketball. I > also enjoy chess, backgammon, bridge. While I am 53, my doctor says I > have the body of a 30 year old. I enjoy life, but I don't take it all > that seriously - especially myself. I find that seriousness creates > stagnation and stagnation slows me down - and I like to move. :-) > > I've practiced yoga, qigong, taiji for over 25 years and yoga for > about the same amount the time. My practice has gone in many > directions and has certainly evolved over time. One of the things I > have learned is that in life everyone is equal. We are all here to > learn lessons - and no one is any further along than anyone else. We > are all students - and when we have questions, the teacher will > appear. I teach these arts - but for me it is no big deal. It is one > of the things I do in my life and hopefully it allows others to enjoy > their life more - and learn what they are here to learn. Otherwise I > enjoy my own practice, and continue to learn what I am here to learn. > Hopefully, I complete my learning before I die. :-) If not, I guess I > have an infinite number of lives to do it. Or, I have no more lives. > Either way, it is the same. :-) > > As I disovered the nature of qi - by experience, not through books - I > became more interested in who qi creates and maintain life and that > brought me in direct involvement with - the classical > medicine, not TCM. Of course, I have been going to TCM pracitioners > using the popular TCM approaches for over 15 years and through that > process I have learn alot about what works and what doesn't work - and > then I tried to figure out why. Why? Because that is what interests me > - understanding the nature of qi, how it creates life and how it > maintains life. It is quite interesting, but it is a different topic > onto itself and probably a different forum, since this is a TCM forum. > > Over the years I continued to read and study, on my own and in > schools. My library contains most of the classics and current TCM > books, but in order to " declutter " my mind and home, I have rid myself > of most of these books except for a few which I use to refer to > whenever I " discover " a new idea. Some of my favorite books are little > treasures that I have found in our local bookstores which will never > get to the top 100 on the TCM bestseller list, but I don't think they > are meant to. They are there for students when they are ready. When > the student is ready the book will appear. :-) " Chan Mi Gong " is a one > of these little treasures. So simple and yet so profound. I believe > there is much merit to what Mark Seem writes about TCM. I certainly > have enjoyed his books enormously for the insight they have brought to > me. And while I am at it, I " Who Can Ride the Dragon " had an equally > profound effect - if for nothing more than the insight it brought to > me about the nature of yin, yang, and qi. > > I have taken courses in all of the required areas of > including Tuina, , Anatomy and Physiology, and > Shiatsu, etc. But by far and away, the lessons I have taken from my > qigong/anmo pracititioner have been the most profound. For in these > lessons, I have learned how really simple life and health can be. I > never understood how to " balance " anything that was in motion part of > an " open system " , until I realized there was no need to balance. The > " body of qi " naturally balances itself when all the gates and channels > are " unblocked " . Or as my Chinese anatomy teacher recently said - " The > more I study , the more I realize it is all about > cleaning a house - our house. " While he did not say this explicitly, > this surely means our bodies, minds, and spirit. > > So here I am, enjoying life. I am pretty much self-maintaining at this > point. I do not use pharmaceuticals or herbs. I do not need anyone to > needle me. I do not worry about " old age " or the pains of growing old. > What I do need, is to keep cleaning house - my house - and learn new > ways to do this. I have enjoyed learning lots of new things on this > forum. > > Quickly to my mind are the wonderful posts on qigong and tuina. I have > thanked Brian already for being so kind by lending me " Rooted in > Spirit " by Laree and for introducing me to the work of Tom Tam. There > have been others who stepped forward and offered to help me and I > thank them also. Dr. Kaikobad always tickles my fancy and I have also > received many messages off the board which I have found very > interesting. I am thankful to all those who have helped me learn > something new. I am very, very much looking forward to reading more > from Guigen, because I am sure he will increase my perspective of > qigong and its relationship to health. > > So this is who I am. I will not ask for the bios of the people who are > so interested in mine. Your messages and their content speak enough to > satisfy my curiosity about you. > > Regards, > Rich > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 On 20/09/2004, at 12:41 PM, Rich wrote: > Hi, > > Not better ... different. I never think in terms of better. That is > one of the things I learned in my life. Another thing I learned is > what people say about others is really a mirror of what they think > about themselves. That is why they " notice it " . For this reason, I > don't criticize others on forums. I would just be criticizing myself. > I rather do this in private. :-) > This is a classic cop-out and underhanded way of making your actual criticism so you can make a semantic argument to deny you ever criticised someone. You seem to bounce constructive criticism with such 'jewels " of psycho-babble as your primary defence; as you lack the 'ball's' to talk straight or perhaps the self belief in the actual content of some of your recent posts .... Rich, It is fascinating how your tai ji and qi gong experience recently jumped from 15 years to over 25 in a few months...... I digress however.......... My introduction to yin, yang, qi and related concepts began with the martial arts. In the past 17 years since that time, I have continued to practice tai ji, qigong (both professionally in my China internship and privately), and other martial arts since that time. After dropping out during my first Bachelor of Science Degree after 2 years (human biology) I continued to research, read and take classes in aspects of Chinese medicine and other alternative therapies. What I am getting at is; at that point.......I committed to this path and after 5 years of full-time University level study graduated as a professional TCM practitioner. Since that time I continue to study (several hours a day) and learn because I know there is still so much at assimilate. I also run a private TCM practice. My area of expertise is not qigong and tuina (although I get the idea that I have more professional training in these areas than you - both theoretically and in the hospital setting) so I don't comment either way on the validity of their theoretical foundations or practical utility. If I had not entered professional tertiary education in this field I may have a distorted and confused idea about TCM, acupuncture and Chinese herbal medicine like yourself. I must say again that I am interested in some of your postings, particularly on the nature of the human body in terms of qigong theory. I do not disparage any of this simply because I don't have sufficient experience to judge either way. I find much of it interesting and it does help my growth. The same is certainly not true when you enter areas of expertise you have limited valuable knowledge in. ie. TCM, Herbs or acupuncture. I wish you would act in a similar manner in regards to TCM, acupuncture and Chinese herbal medicine. ie. only comment when you have sufficient understanding of these therapies.........that is in 5 years if you start now. I can also guarantee you that being a patient of 1 million different TCM practitioners will never help you understand TCM to a degree sufficient to have a respectable professional opinion on TCM itself. Doctors simplify concepts ad hoc for the individual patient to a degree you will only understand when you are a doctor yourself; you can't communicate yin, yang and qi in the limited time of a 1 hour session no matter how intelligent or interested they are..........that is what professional full-time education is for!!! A concept you have no grasp of, nor respect for. All my lecturers were from China (some famous professors with illustrious Chinese careers), and each had some difficulties in communicating TCM in clear and transparent English. This was also the case in China, and is also the case in 99.9% of TCM texts written only by a Chinese national. These texts are so simplified that yes, they can seem inconsistent and illogical. Thankfully, this does not apply to Wiseman texts or some of the more recent texts written my Chinese nationals from the large professional TCM publishing houses in the West. (Paradigm, churchil-livingstone, et all). At this point, I shall leave any further discussion on these matters to yourself, professional members on this list and the moderators who may wish to express their opinions on the suitability of your personal claims regarding TCM terminology, theory, practice and usefulness. bao zhong, Steve On 20/09/2004, at 9:53 AM, Rich wrote: > > Hi all, > > I guess there are some members who are really interested in my > background. > > I am a former computer analyst who is now in semi-retirement, at the > age of 53, enjoying a very full and reboust life. I love to dance > (swing, samba, salsa, ballroowm, etc.) and sing (especially the songs > of the 50s and 60s), and play lots of sports when I can find someone > who has time to play including tennis, table tennis, basketball. I > also enjoy chess, backgammon, bridge. While I am 53, my doctor says I > have the body of a 30 year old. I enjoy life, but I don't take it all > that seriously - especially myself. I find that seriousness creates > stagnation and stagnation slows me down - and I like to move. :-) > > I've practiced yoga, qigong, taiji for over 25 years and yoga for > about the same amount the time. My practice has gone in many > directions and has certainly evolved over time. One of the things I > have learned is that in life everyone is equal. We are all here to > learn lessons - and no one is any further along than anyone else. We > are all students - and when we have questions, the teacher will > appear. I teach these arts - but for me it is no big deal. It is one > of the things I do in my life and hopefully it allows others to enjoy > their life more - and learn what they are here to learn. Otherwise I > enjoy my own practice, and continue to learn what I am here to learn. > Hopefully, I complete my learning before I die. :-) If not, I guess I > have an infinite number of lives to do it. Or, I have no more lives. > Either way, it is the same. :-) > > As I disovered the nature of qi - by experience, not through books - I > became more interested in who qi creates and maintain life and that > brought me in direct involvement with - the classical > medicine, not TCM. Of course, I have been going to TCM pracitioners > using the popular TCM approaches for over 15 years and through that > process I have learn alot about what works and what doesn't work - and > then I tried to figure out why. Why? Because that is what interests me > - understanding the nature of qi, how it creates life and how it > maintains life. It is quite interesting, but it is a different topic > onto itself and probably a different forum, since this is a TCM forum. > > Over the years I continued to read and study, on my own and in > schools. My library contains most of the classics and current TCM > books, but in order to " declutter " my mind and home, I have rid myself > of most of these books except for a few which I use to refer to > whenever I " discover " a new idea. Some of my favorite books are little > treasures that I have found in our local bookstores which will never > get to the top 100 on the TCM bestseller list, but I don't think they > are meant to. They are there for students when they are ready. When > the student is ready the book will appear. :-) " Chan Mi Gong " is a one > of these little treasures. So simple and yet so profound. I believe > there is much merit to what Mark Seem writes about TCM. I certainly > have enjoyed his books enormously for the insight they have brought to > me. And while I am at it, I " Who Can Ride the Dragon " had an equally > profound effect - if for nothing more than the insight it brought to > me about the nature of yin, yang, and qi. > > I have taken courses in all of the required areas of > including Tuina, , Anatomy and Physiology, and > Shiatsu, etc. But by far and away, the lessons I have taken from my > qigong/anmo pracititioner have been the most profound. For in these > lessons, I have learned how really simple life and health can be. I > never understood how to " balance " anything that was in motion part of > an " open system " , until I realized there was no need to balance. The > " body of qi " naturally balances itself when all the gates and channels > are " unblocked " . Or as my Chinese anatomy teacher recently said - " The > more I study , the more I realize it is all about > cleaning a house - our house. " While he did not say this explicitly, > this surely means our bodies, minds, and spirit. > > So here I am, enjoying life. I am pretty much self-maintaining at this > point. I do not use pharmaceuticals or herbs. I do not need anyone to > needle me. I do not worry about " old age " or the pains of growing old. > What I do need, is to keep cleaning house - my house - and learn new > ways to do this. I have enjoyed learning lots of new things on this > forum. > > Quickly to my mind are the wonderful posts on qigong and tuina. I have > thanked Brian already for being so kind by lending me " Rooted in > Spirit " by Laree and for introducing me to the work of Tom Tam. There > have been others who stepped forward and offered to help me and I > thank them also. Dr. Kaikobad always tickles my fancy and I have also > received many messages off the board which I have found very > interesting. I am thankful to all those who have helped me learn > something new. I am very, very much looking forward to reading more > from Guigen, because I am sure he will increase my perspective of > qigong and its relationship to health. > > So this is who I am. I will not ask for the bios of the people who are > so interested in mine. Your messages and their content speak enough to > satisfy my curiosity about you. > > Regards, > Rich > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Hi Rich, To clear things up, please provide further details of your TCM training, such as the name of the school, length of study and modules covered. Thank you, Kind regards Attilio Rich [rfinkelstein] 20 September 2004 00:54 Chinese Medicine My Background Over the years I continued to read and study, on my own and in schools. My library contains most of the classics and current TCM books, but in order to " declutter " my mind and home, I have rid myself of most of these books except for a few which I use to refer to whenever I " discover " a new idea. Some of my favorite books are little treasures that I have found in our local bookstores which will never get to the top 100 on the TCM bestseller list, but I don't think they are meant to. They are there for students when they are ready. When the student is ready the book will appear. :-) " Chan Mi Gong " is a one of these little treasures. So simple and yet so profound. I believe there is much merit to what Mark Seem writes about TCM. I certainly have enjoyed his books enormously for the insight they have brought to me. And while I am at it, I " Who Can Ride the Dragon " had an equally profound effect - if for nothing more than the insight it brought to me about the nature of yin, yang, and qi. I have taken courses in all of the required areas of including Tuina, , Anatomy and Physiology, and Shiatsu, etc. But by far and away, the lessons I have taken from my qigong/anmo pracititioner have been the most profound. For in these lessons, I have learned how really simple life and health can be. I never understood how to " balance " anything that was in motion part of an " open system " , until I realized there was no need to balance. The " body of qi " naturally balances itself when all the gates and channels are " unblocked " . Or as my Chinese anatomy teacher recently said - " The more I study , the more I realize it is all about cleaning a house - our house. " While he did not say this explicitly, this surely means our bodies, minds, and spirit. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Rich wrote: > Or as my Chinese anatomy teacher recently said - " The > more I study , the more I realize it is all about > cleaning a house - our house. " While he did not say this explicitly, > this surely means our bodies, minds, and spirit. > > In my journeys I found it mean a great deal more: There's a body which remains in the day, and one which remains in the night, and the one excludes the other. There's a thinking qi which cannot conceive the feeling qi, one coming from the HT and the other from the K. There's a surreal soul and a real soul, one behind the other, Wood stands sentinel and will not readily render it's secrets. I have often worked out the trajectory of LV as it begins at the great toe, and travels winding around the genitals where future generations lie in yin induced sleep, and I have always been fascinated at it's last point, the vertex, as though it holds the Core. Coupled with that the Gall sustains the sides and gathers in, with the TW, the lateral aspect's of the octahedral. I have always wondered at the mystery of LV as the Blood it rules. Does that remember the souls of past lives? Above all I wonder at the fatal flaw in the drip drop of the clepsydra, which divides life into neat particles of 7's and 8's, and has us burgeon to youth, on time, and wane and age, on time, and ultimately fade away, on time. Body. mind or spirit, each contains a lethal message, " When it is time, kill the owner of this House, and then destroy the edifice. " When yin is as empty as the yang, qi is no more. Exeunt. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 I want to step in here with my 0.2. Once again it seems that someone on the list is not up to scratch,not professional enough and is in my opinion being hounded out of the list,I guess that is the intention.He's just not " tcm " enough for some on the list Well it seems a bit late but that is just my opinion.Rich has had many things to say which I have found very interesting even if he's not conforming to TCM fully or he hasn't digested Wisemans dictionary to the liking of some members. Rich seems to have a very pragmatic approach which involves feeling,sensing and finding " blockages " and then with sleeves rolled up removing these blockages.This is a very effective and valid form of bodywork including Acupuncture which when I last looked was part of TCM although so obviously to many on this list a " lesser " part. One of the most well known Acupuncturists- Kiiko Matsumoto would probably also be hounded out as she too does not conform to TCM ideals even though she practices Acupuncture rooted firmly in the Classics(called by some Japanese Acupuncture-whatever that is) although not a tradition or style pleasing enough to those who want only " pureTCM " on this list-whatever that means.There are many,many experienced " master " practitioners of Acupuncture who have long ago dispensed with diagnosis,this is a fact like it or not Many know and understand the principles of TCM but for Acupuncture at least have found that " the treatment IS the diagnosis " It is right here right now If the practitioner needs a diagnosis for their own minds that is up to them but it is not necessary to treat 'very effectively " with acupuncture at least To say that it would be unethical to treat without a TCM diagnosis as one member stated is ridiculous.I Just for the record I have completed a four year course in most of which was TCM and a two year post graduate course in Clinical Acupuncure at the University of Technology in Sydney.I have been to China five times and have studied under and practiced alongside many TCM trained Doctors. I have a mentor in China who has practiced for forty years.I have been in full time practice for 16 years. I hope this is enough to allow me an opinion.I have seen TCM up close and personal and have respect,there are many traditions within some of which do not fall neatly into the box of TCM as has been decided by the most vocal and often hostile in this group. Ray Ford Original Message------- Chinese Medicine Monday, 20 September 2004 7:34:54 PM Chinese Medicine Re: My Background Really Rich, A professional patient who has learnt to breathe well and taken a few classes in various areas of alternative medicine does not qualify as a professional healthcare provider. Please get a grip, Steve On 20/09/2004, at 9:53 AM, Rich wrote: > > Hi all, > > I guess there are some members who are really interested in my > background. > > I am a former computer analyst who is now in semi-retirement, at the > age of 53, enjoying a very full and reboust life. I love to dance > (swing, samba, salsa, ballroowm, etc.) and sing (especially the songs > of the 50s and 60s), and play lots of sports when I can find someone > who has time to play including tennis, table tennis, basketball. I > also enjoy chess, backgammon, bridge. While I am 53, my doctor says I > have the body of a 30 year old. I enjoy life, but I don't take it all > that seriously - especially myself. I find that seriousness creates > stagnation and stagnation slows me down - and I like to move. :-) > > I've practiced yoga, qigong, taiji for over 25 years and yoga for > about the same amount the time. My practice has gone in many > directions and has certainly evolved over time. One of the things I > have learned is that in life everyone is equal. We are all here to > learn lessons - and no one is any further along than anyone else. We > are all students - and when we have questions, the teacher will > appear. I teach these arts - but for me it is no big deal. It is one > of the things I do in my life and hopefully it allows others to enjoy > their life more - and learn what they are here to learn. Otherwise I > enjoy my own practice, and continue to learn what I am here to learn. > Hopefully, I complete my learning before I die. :-) If not, I guess I > have an infinite number of lives to do it. Or, I have no more lives. > Either way, it is the same. :-) > > As I disovered the nature of qi - by experience, not through books - I > became more interested in who qi creates and maintain life and that > brought me in direct involvement with - the classical > medicine, not TCM. Of course, I have been going to TCM pracitioners > using the popular TCM approaches for over 15 years and through that > process I have learn alot about what works and what doesn't work - and > then I tried to figure out why. Why? Because that is what interests me > - understanding the nature of qi, how it creates life and how it > maintains life. It is quite interesting, but it is a different topic > onto itself and probably a different forum, since this is a TCM forum. > > Over the years I continued to read and study, on my own and in > schools. My library contains most of the classics and current TCM > books, but in order to " declutter " my mind and home, I have rid myself > of most of these books except for a few which I use to refer to > whenever I " discover " a new idea. Some of my favorite books are little > treasures that I have found in our local bookstores which will never > get to the top 100 on the TCM bestseller list, but I don't think they > are meant to. They are there for students when they are ready. When > the student is ready the book will appear. :-) " Chan Mi Gong " is a one > of these little treasures. So simple and yet so profound. I believe > there is much merit to what Mark Seem writes about TCM. I certainly > have enjoyed his books enormously for the insight they have brought to > me. And while I am at it, I " Who Can Ride the Dragon " had an equally > profound effect - if for nothing more than the insight it brought to > me about the nature of yin, yang, and qi. > > I have taken courses in all of the required areas of > including Tuina, , Anatomy and Physiology, and > Shiatsu, etc. But by far and away, the lessons I have taken from my > qigong/anmo pracititioner have been the most profound. For in these > lessons, I have learned how really simple life and health can be. I > never understood how to " balance " anything that was in motion part of > an " open system " , until I realized there was no need to balance. The > " body of qi " naturally balances itself when all the gates and channels > are " unblocked " . Or as my Chinese anatomy teacher recently said - " The > more I study , the more I realize it is all about > cleaning a house - our house. " While he did not say this explicitly, > this surely means our bodies, minds, and spirit. > > So here I am, enjoying life. I am pretty much self-maintaining at this > point. I do not use pharmaceuticals or herbs. I do not need anyone to > needle me. I do not worry about " old age " or the pains of growing old. > What I do need, is to keep cleaning house - my house - and learn new > ways to do this. I have enjoyed learning lots of new things on this > forum. > > Quickly to my mind are the wonderful posts on qigong and tuina. I have > thanked Brian already for being so kind by lending me " Rooted in > Spirit " by Laree and for introducing me to the work of Tom Tam. There > have been others who stepped forward and offered to help me and I > thank them also. Dr. Kaikobad always tickles my fancy and I have also > received many messages off the board which I have found very > interesting. I am thankful to all those who have helped me learn > something new. I am very, very much looking forward to reading more > from Guigen, because I am sure he will increase my perspective of > qigong and its relationship to health. > > So this is who I am. I will not ask for the bios of the people who are > so interested in mine. Your messages and their content speak enough to > satisfy my curiosity about you. > > Regards, > Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Hi Attilio, I do not wish to get specific schools or teachers embroiled in this controversy. This is my life - not theirs. I am a TCM student, I am Taiji/Qigong teacher, and I have studied TCM and medical qigong for many years with various teachers. I have my opinions of TCM practitioners - particularly certain ones on this list, but I am trying to be a good forum member and simply stating my experiences and opinions - just as I have of various Western MDs over the years who also have tried to " suppress " ideas that they are not comfortable with. Let me remind the professionals on this forum that it was largely due to the efforts of " patients " over the last 25 years that the profession of TCM even exists. An it is the continued work of patients, through lobbying, financial support, referrels, that the Chinese and other types of medicine continue to grow over the years. It was the " patients " who first stood up to health monopolies here in the U.S. and demanded a choice. Over the last 25 years I have supported the TCM community here in Illinois and most recently, this support has helped create a strong enough atmosphere where here in Illinois, it is no longer necessary to have a physicians referrel to receive treatment from an acupuncturist. My contributions to the acceptance of here in my community has been ample of the years through various endeavors. I am personally quite shocked at the reaction of some of the members of this forum. It reminds me of the reactions of MDs when I first suggested to them, 25 years ago, that might have something substantial to offer towards the health of the community. Patients - as well as professionals - have a stake in their own health and are entitled to speak about their experiences and suggest alternatives. Throughout these conversations, I have merely stated my experiences - and the reactions have been totally surprising. Mostly " appeal to authority " or " attacks on character " - the same kind of arguments I hear from Western MDs. If this type of argument had any validity, I would still be using Western medicine today. Luckily they do not. With that said, I am indeed a full-time student working toward Tuina/Qigong licensing here in Chicago with a background that includes: I have attended: -Courses in and Tuina in an accredited TCM school. -Courses in Anatomy, Phsyiology, , Shiatsu, Business/Ethics, etc. all part of a standard AOBTA course curriculum for becoming a certified practitioner. My objective is to provide tuina/qigong services in a similar fashion as my teacher. -Apprenticing with different Tuina practitioners for three years -Studied Taiji with Professor H. for 5 years -Studied Taiji/Qigong with Master G. for 15 years -Teaching Taiji/Qigong for 15 years -Studied Yoga for 25 years -Studied Medical Qigong as an apprentice for three years -Taught taiji and qigong for 15 years My most substantial accomplishment is that I have sucessfully explored and found a model of health that is truly preventative and can be adopted by people/patients with the objective of avoiding visits to doctors and other practitioners. Patients who are self-empowered do not need " licenses " . This, I believe, is what the Neijing states is the highest level of medicine. Throughout my discussions on this forum, I have maintained a civil attitude and have attempted to discuss " ideas " and " methods " . Just like I did 25 years ago when I first began discussing these ideas and methods with Western trained MDs in similar forums - and have continued doing so for. I even remember a phone call on talk-radio when I debated an MD about whether heart conditions can be reversed - this was when Ornish's publications were first released and now 20 years later had become popularly accepted. " Attacking a person " or " appealing to authority " have always proven to be poor strategy for supporting an argument or an idea. Here in Illinois, patients have prevailed and now have an opportunity to receive acupunture treatment without a physician's referral because of patients and practitioners who came up with clear arguments and not just attacks. If " professionals " do not have the time or inclination to discuss ideas with " non-professionals " then I really question their " professionalism " . I have run encountered exactly the same conduct from Western-trained MDs for 25 years. :-) As I have indicated, I will limit my comments on this forum to Tuina and Qigong and will look for other forums to discuss the nature of TCM vs. Classical . I am certainly not alone with these concerns but I will discuss them elsewhere. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Dear Dr. Keikobad, Your messages always seem to turn my day into a different direction - a direction that adds much more meaning into my life. :-) > Rich wrote: > > Or as my Chinese anatomy teacher recently said - " The > > more I study , the more I realize it is all about > > cleaning a house - our house. " While he did not say this >explicitly, this surely means our bodies, minds, and spirit. > > > > In my journeys I found it mean a great deal more: > > There's a body which remains in the day, and one which remains > in the night, and the one excludes the other. I have often thought about the " mind " that stands still while we are sleeping. During that period which we call sleep, there is no " space or time " and anything is possible. Same Mind - yet it is behaving so differently. I will have to print out and contemplate the rest of your message. It is a wonderful message. > Body. mind or spirit, each contains a lethal message, " When it is time, kill the owner of this House, and then destroy the edifice. " > > When yin is as empty as the yang, qi is no more. But, at the end, are we just " cleaning house " and making room for something new? :-) Warm regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Dear Ray, Thank you very much. I continue to avidly support practitioners such as yourself because people want and need you and what you offer. I am glad you are there for them - and for me. Warm Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Hi Ray, The issue has nothing to do with being TCM or non-TCM. The issue is about knocking TCM without actually understanding the system of TCM is to begin with. Personally, I don't want this list to be restrictive to ANY type of professional healthcare. In fact, I would be very interested to learn more about the " Japanese " acupuncture styles as I have found that clinically; the TCM style acupuncture I initially trained in (particularly as practised in China) is not well tolerated by many of us lao wai....and have therefore reduced needle size, depth and manipulation in a majority of my patients with no noticeable loss in clinical effectiveness. I don't think I ever suggested Kiiko Matsumoto or any other practitioner has the wrong idea on anything; just a certain individual without professional training who continually .....no no, won't go there again. I also agree that Rich has an interesting and thought-provoking approach to bodywork; one I never had a problem with. In fact, I found much of it quite valuable. This is not about Rich's personal area of expertise; it is about the boundaries on this list not being stepped over. I hope I haven't hounded out anyone, just reinforced the value of respecting a speciality and actually understanding it before bagging it. This also happens to be a rule of this list. I whole-hearted agree that the is much more to Chinese medicine/japanese kampo/acupuncture etc than TCM. This was never the issue!! The issue is simply that one talk from a solid background that would be accepted by the posters peers in their own area of expertise. You don't need to state your background, but it is impressive! Only one individuals background was questioned, and it turns out to be for very good reason in the eyes of more than a few on this list. On 21/09/2004, at 12:51 AM, rayford wrote: > ....Many know and understand the principles of TCM but for Acupuncture > at least > have found that " the treatment IS the diagnosis " It is right here right > now > If the practitioner needs a diagnosis for their own minds that is up > to them > but it is not necessary to treat 'very effectively " with acupuncture at > least > To say that it would be unethical to treat without a TCM diagnosis as > one > member stated is ridiculous...... I was the one who said it would be unethical to treat without a TCM diagnosis.......and I stand by that BECAUSE I was refereeing to the practice of TCM, not any other modality. Practising TCM does require a diagnosis.........otherwise it is not TCM. Everything I say has a context, and I would appreciate it if was not not applied beyond that context. Incidentally, do you currently practice in Australia? If so, you would know that it is also a legal responsibility to have a reasonably complete patient record with signs/symptoms, a working diagnosis, syndrome differentiation, matching treatment principle and treatment prescription for each patient visit. This is the STANDARD for a registered professional of TCM in Australia. Diagnosis, may not apply to other therapies, and I was not suggesting that it did or would be unethical in OTHER therapies. However, I do find it hard to believe any professional health care provider would treat a patient without a diagnosis, at least in the patient record.............that would do your profession no favours and will land your butt in a WHOLE heap of trouble if a patient ever took you to court for malpractice or injury compensation. Best Wishes, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Ray, This is not true at all, and a misrepresentation of many on this list. Having studied with Kiiko, I highly respect her work in Japanese acupuncture, and my own practice is largely influenced by Japanese acupuncture. However, Chinese herbal medicine is based on different criteria, which often gets confused with acupuncture criteria in our profession. To treat using herbal medicine without diagnosis is unethical, Diagnosis is there in acupuncture, despite what you argue below, as Japanese acupuncture uses pulse diagnosis, abdominal palpation, pressing points, and a theoretical construct based on the classical literature to one degree or another. There is no substitute for training in a discipline, whether hands-on or intellectually based. To critique Chinese medical theory without that background is what people are responding to. On Sep 20, 2004, at 7:51 AM, rayford wrote: > One of the most well known Acupuncturists- Kiiko Matsumoto would > probably > also be hounded out as she too does not conform to TCM ideals even > though > she practices Acupuncture rooted firmly in the Classics(called by some > Japanese Acupuncture-whatever that is) although not a tradition or > style > pleasing enough to those who want only " pureTCM " on this list-whatever > that > means.There are many,many experienced " master " practitioners of > Acupuncture > who have long ago dispensed with diagnosis,this is a fact like it or > not > Many know and understand the principles of TCM but for Acupuncture at > least > have found that " the treatment IS the diagnosis " It is right here right > now > If the practitioner needs a diagnosis for their own minds that is up > to them > but it is not necessary to treat 'very effectively " with acupuncture at > least > To say that it would be unethical to treat without a TCM diagnosis as > one > member stated is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Thanks Z'ev, this is what I was also trying to say but; I seem to lack the ability to express such sentiments as succinctly as you.;-( Best wishes, Steve On 21/09/2004, at 1:48 AM, wrote: > Ray, > This is not true at all, and a misrepresentation of many on this > list. Having studied with Kiiko, I highly respect her work in Japanese > acupuncture, and my own practice is largely influenced by Japanese > acupuncture. However, Chinese herbal medicine is based on different > criteria, which often gets confused with acupuncture criteria in our > profession. To treat using herbal medicine without diagnosis is > unethical, Diagnosis is there in acupuncture, despite what you argue > below, as Japanese acupuncture uses pulse diagnosis, abdominal > palpation, pressing points, and a theoretical construct based on the > classical literature to one degree or another. There is no substitute > for training in a discipline, whether hands-on or intellectually based. > To critique Chinese medical theory without that background is what > people are responding to. > > > On Sep 20, 2004, at 7:51 AM, rayford wrote: > >> One of the most well known Acupuncturists- Kiiko Matsumoto would >> probably >> also be hounded out as she too does not conform to TCM ideals even >> though >> she practices Acupuncture rooted firmly in the Classics(called by some >> Japanese Acupuncture-whatever that is) although not a tradition or >> style >> pleasing enough to those who want only " pureTCM " on this list-whatever >> that >> means.There are many,many experienced " master " practitioners of >> Acupuncture >> who have long ago dispensed with diagnosis,this is a fact like it or >> not >> Many know and understand the principles of TCM but for Acupuncture at >> least >> have found that " the treatment IS the diagnosis " It is right here right >> now >> If the practitioner needs a diagnosis for their own minds that is up >> to them >> but it is not necessary to treat 'very effectively " with acupuncture at >> least >> To say that it would be unethical to treat without a TCM diagnosis as >> one >> member stated is ridiculous. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 I find many of Rich's views interesting and would also disagree with many of his views. But that is what I would expect from a discussion forum. This aggressive " hounding " seems way over the top to me. Here is a handy tip. If someone expresses a view that you find ridiculous.....click " delete " - " rayford " <rford <Chinese Medicine > Monday, September 20, 2004 3:51 PM Re: My Background > I want to step in here with my 0.2. > Once again it seems that someone on the list is not up to scratch,not > professional enough and is in my opinion being hounded out of the list,I > guess that is the intention.He's just not " tcm " enough for some on the list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Rich wrote: > But, at the end, are we just " cleaning house " and making room for > something new? :-) > > The mind which you have grasp on, is notoriously upbeat, and feeds you tales of life after life, a great Sleep, and being in an astral body, and so on. One must see through this fraud, and look inside where sight is blind. When one says, Shen, it says When. It uses one's will to create complacence and kills when one is not looking. In every sense, we die by our own hand, and the ones who know the least, fade away the most helplessly. Shen kills in sleep, at work, while having sex. Sometimes it turns virulent and kills at the altar, many a times it kills when one, with limited HT qi, laughs more than one should, and fall dead on the lawn, with the smile frozen on the face. Shen is Shen when you have a grasp over it, else it is the deepest, most never ending of Sleep. When Shen wakes, it is life, when it decides to do otherwise, it is untimely, unseemly death. Every wrinkles is placed by the same qi which once gave the rosy cheek and flaxen hair. Qi is in a sense a capability. Once this is lost, one will be wafted wherever the errant Winds will take us. If things sound hopeless, it is simply a reflection of what one does not know of one's own self. The flesh knows how to heal. Let it. That is wisdom. The Soul stands apart, and smiles, and at times jeers. Especially when one is certain one opened one of the Ninety Nine Doors. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Rich, When I and others on this list say " TCM " we are generally referring to Chinese herbal medicine as currently practised in China. If you didn't know this; now you do. Thus, I stand by everything I said to be true. The practitioner you study with is diagnosing in his own way; whether he explicitly tells you what that is or how he is doing it, is another issue. Can you explain to me how he find's a " blockage " , " cold qi " or some other kind of stagnation without investigating the patients condition in some way? And type of investigation, whether in be looking, palpating, questioning or reading aura's is a diagnostic process. He may not call it that, but in English, it is a diagnostic process. He is also not practising TCM (read " herbal medicine), he is by your own admission practising anmo/tuina and qigong. Perhaps a great deal of this debate comes back to simply understanding definitions once again. The terms " diagnosis " and " TCM " in particular come to mind here. Best Wishes, Steve On 21/09/2004, at 2:00 AM, Rich wrote: > Dear Steve, > >> I was the one who said it would be unethical to treat without a TCM >> diagnosis.......and I stand by that BECAUSE I was refereeing to the >> practice of TCM, not any other modality. Practising TCM does require a >> diagnosis.........otherwise it is not TCM. > > This is absolutely wrong. As I have said many times, the practitioner > who I am studying with worked and taught Anmo/Tuina and Qigong in TCM > hospitals and never did any " diagnosis " . Textbooks simply do not cover > this topic. The texts that are available here in the U.S and studied > in TCM schools represent a fraction of what is actually practiced in > China. China has progressed - and in some cases regressed - in many > different directions over the last 30 years when some of the TCM > texts, which are still being used today, were first written and > translated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 There is another purpose for this forum, and that is educating and sharing information with students, fellow practitioners and the general public. We have a responsibility to air informed opinions, not just any idea that misrepresents the actual subject at hand. Why shouldn't anyone disagree with an opinion and challenge it, if it seems out in left field? On Sep 20, 2004, at 9:00 AM, Dermot O'Connor wrote: > I find many of Rich's views interesting and would also disagree with > many of > his views. But that is what I would expect from a discussion forum. > This > aggressive " hounding " seems way over the top to me. > > Here is a handy tip. If someone expresses a view that you find > ridiculous.....click " delete " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Zev, First of all,it would be really great if you spoke about your opinions and not include others on the list who no doubt can and will speak for themselves, I have no doubt others agree with you! I have been to two Kiiko seminars and met her at Tri State last year.She told me herself as did Mark Seem that they have no need for diagnosis TCM or otherwise,it is ONLY taught for acupuncture so that the students can pass the exams-how ironic is that???This is a fact and they are open about it just ASK her.I agree with your comments about herbal medicine but if you look back you can see I made it clear that I was talking about acupuncture when making a point.Diagnosis is there in SOME popular Japanese acupuncture styles but there are many styles of " Japanese Acupuncture' many treat without diagnosis ala TCM or any other form of diagnosis. Saying " Japanese Acupuncture " is now to me like saying " English Gravity " Practitioners of " Japanese Acupuncture " have told me that they are diagnosing this and that but in private conversation with me have confirmed that a palpatory diagnosis is THE DIAGNOSIS.This means the body and its structure in particular the muscles and fasciaso many do not use the pulse or tongue at all.The scope of TCM, the traditions included in TCM this is my point but I don't think you will ever hear what I am saying. Ray Ford ---- Chinese Medicine Tuesday, 21 September 2004 1:49:12 AM Chinese Medicine Re: My Background Ray, This is not true at all, and a misrepresentation of many on this list. Having studied with Kiiko, I highly respect her work in Japanese acupuncture, and my own practice is largely influenced by Japanese acupuncture. However, Chinese herbal medicine is based on different criteria, which often gets confused with acupuncture criteria in our profession. To treat using herbal medicine without diagnosis is unethical, Diagnosis is there in acupuncture, despite what you argue below, as Japanese acupuncture uses pulse diagnosis, abdominal palpation, pressing points, and a theoretical construct based on the classical literature to one degree or another. There is no substitute for training in a discipline, whether hands-on or intellectually based. To critique Chinese medical theory without that background is what people are responding to. On Sep 20, 2004, at 7:51 AM, rayford wrote: > One of the most well known Acupuncturists- Kiiko Matsumoto would > probably > also be hounded out as she too does not conform to TCM ideals even > though > she practices Acupuncture rooted firmly in the Classics(called by some > Japanese Acupuncture-whatever that is) although not a tradition or > style > pleasing enough to those who want only " pureTCM " on this list-whatever > that > means.There are many,many experienced " master " practitioners of > Acupuncture > who have long ago dispensed with diagnosis,this is a fact like it or > not > Many know and understand the principles of TCM but for Acupuncture at > least > have found that " the treatment IS the diagnosis " It is right here right > now > If the practitioner needs a diagnosis for their own minds that is up > to them > but it is not necessary to treat 'very effectively " with acupuncture at > least > To say that it would be unethical to treat without a TCM diagnosis as > one > member stated is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Dear Steve, Chinese Medicine , Steven Slater <laozhongyi@m...> wrote: > Rich, > > When I and others on this list say " TCM " we are generally referring >to Chinese herbal medicine as currently practised in China. I believe that this is a very narrow definition of TCM. TCM, as this forum is titled, is much broader in scope and includes Tuina/Anmo (different regions refer to it differently, Qigong and many sub-specialties including Gua Sha, cupping, etc. > > The practitioner you study with is diagnosing in his own way; >whether > he explicitly tells you what that is or how he is doing it, is another > issue. Can you explain to me how he find's a " blockage " , " cold qi " or > some other kind of stagnation without investigating the patients > condition in some way? I have explained this in other messages - many of my original posts - but I am glad to try to explain it again. First, he does not, and cannot, legally " diagnose " . What he does, is palpate the body observing the body for blockages and areas of stagnation. He confirms this through touch, energetic sensing, responses from the client, and basic " intuition " which he has developed during his 30 years of practice. " Cold qi " really does feel cold. Even with my rudimentary capabilities - compared to him - I can feel it. Qi has really two basic qualities - warm and cold (Yang/Ying) with an infinite number of gradiations. When it is very cold, it is like " ice " and creates lots of energetic blockages (stagnation) which we feel as cold, highly condensed qi. I do not think this approach is at all unique. I have read other pracitioners descriibe similar approaches. This approach could be applied to many other types of modalities. It all depends upon one's own skills and training. >And type of investigation, whether in be > looking, palpating, questioning or reading aura's is a diagnostic > process. He may not call it that, but in English, it is a diagnostic > process. There are legal, cultural, textual definitions for everything. What I wanted to illustrate in my early messages that it is quite possible to treat patients sucessfully (more sucessfully?) without using the typical TCM approach as described in textbooks, while still practicing TCM modalities - e.g. Tuina and Qigong. The practitioner I refer to gets an extremely high number of new referrals each week - which is good because he is " curing " so many clients each week. :-) What's more, he readily teaches clients how they may treat and maintain themselves. That is the way it should be. To prevent disease, to teach people how to maintain their own well-being, is the highest level of medicine. So say the Classics. This has nothing to do with " diagnosis " . It has all to do with good heart. :-) > > He is also not practising TCM (read " herbal medicine), he is by your > own admission practising anmo/tuina and qigong. Yes, I have said this repeatedly. His practice does not require the use of needles or herbs. It is very simple, straightforward and effective. However, it is TCM. Tuina and Qigong are very much embraced within the TCM framework. I believe there have been other recent threads addressing this subject, and I do not think it has to be re-visited. > > Perhaps a great deal of this debate comes back to simply understanding > definitions once again. The terms " diagnosis " and " TCM " in particular come to mind here. Yes, but I would be very surprised if the term TCM equates to TCM herbalism in the minds of most clients and practitioners. If it does, then I would suggest that TCM schools and literature are not adequately covering alternative TCM approaches that may greatly benefit clients and patients. Diagnosis all has many different meanings an contexts between practitioners - TCM or otherwise. I have witnessed many times in my history, two TCM practitioners diagnosising in completely different manners with completely different end diagnosis. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 On 21/09/2004, at 2:31 AM, rayford wrote: > .......have been to two Kiiko seminars and met her at Tri State last > year.She told me herself as did Mark > Seem that they have no need for diagnosis TCM or otherwise,it is ONLY > taught > for acupuncture so that the students can pass the exams-how ironic is > that???This is a fact and they are open about it just ASK her.I agree > with > your comments about herbal medicine but if you look back you can see I > made > it clear that I was talking about acupuncture when making a > point.Diagnosis > is there in SOME popular Japanese acupuncture styles but there are > many > styles of " Japanese Acupuncture' many treat without diagnosis ala TCM > or any > other form of diagnosis. Saying " Japanese Acupuncture " is now to me like > saying " English Gravity " > Practitioners of " Japanese Acupuncture " have told me that they are > diagnosing > this and that but in private conversation with me have confirmed that > a > palpatory diagnosis is THE DIAGNOSIS.This means the body and its > structure > in particular the muscles and fasciaso many do not use the pulse or > tongue > at all.The scope of TCM, the traditions included in TCM this is my > point but > I don't think you will ever hear what I am saying. > Ray Ford > Ray, At what point did palpatory diagnosis ceese to be a diagnosis? I must reiterate, my comments on the ethical requirement for diagnosis was for TCM, and if you claim it is ridiculous when considered in the context or acupuncture.......you are taking it out of context and labelling it " ridiculous " out of context. Intrigued, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Steve, Palpation of the muscle and fascia,not just " pressing points " as Zev mentioned is not part of TCM .After four years of TCM training I went to Sydney University for two years(part time)to REALLY learn about anatomy.That was some time ago things have changed.To locate and release tight restricted muscles and fascia requires an intimate knowledge of those tissues not just points that is not enough or the pressing of those points. Other than Stagnant Qi or blocked Qi NO- TCM diagnosis is required.Is this so difficult to understand or accept?It is fact!So finally to locate release and clear so many physical problems and effect the underlyingg viscera requires NO diagnosis UNLESS you really want to make one up but it doesn't require one.This may be hard to swallow after years of honest study spectacular results are possible. Ray Ford ---- Chinese Medicine Tuesday, 21 September 2004 2:49:46 AM Chinese Medicine Re: My Background On 21/09/2004, at 2:31 AM, rayford wrote: > .......have been to two Kiiko seminars and met her at Tri State last > year.She told me herself as did Mark > Seem that they have no need for diagnosis TCM or otherwise,it is ONLY > taught > for acupuncture so that the students can pass the exams-how ironic is > that???This is a fact and they are open about it just ASK her.I agree > with > your comments about herbal medicine but if you look back you can see I > made > it clear that I was talking about acupuncture when making a > point.Diagnosis > is there in SOME popular Japanese acupuncture styles but there are > many > styles of " Japanese Acupuncture' many treat without diagnosis ala TCM > or any > other form of diagnosis. Saying " Japanese Acupuncture " is now to me like > saying " English Gravity " > Practitioners of " Japanese Acupuncture " have told me that they are > diagnosing > this and that but in private conversation with me have confirmed that > a > palpatory diagnosis is THE DIAGNOSIS.This means the body and its > structure > in particular the muscles and fasciaso many do not use the pulse or > tongue > at all.The scope of TCM, the traditions included in TCM this is my > point but > I don't think you will ever hear what I am saying. > Ray Ford > Ray, At what point did palpatory diagnosis ceese to be a diagnosis? I must reiterate, my comments on the ethical requirement for diagnosis was for TCM, and if you claim it is ridiculous when considered in the context or acupuncture.......you are taking it out of context and labelling it " ridiculous " out of context. Intrigued, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 To All, Before I reply to this post..........I hope this reply is not " bickering " , and I can see how others may be getting fed up with this thread. However, I feel this is discussing TCM........and in its most basic and perhaps important level.ie. what is it? I am really beginning to think this is the whole problem, some consider TCM to be all and as such almost any niche theory goes when discussing it.....however this is NOT the case and may be the root of this current debate. My personal viewpoints, and those of some others on this list have been expressed directly in response to posts which addressed TCM specifically. Perhaps this was not the posters original intention; but we will not know until it is cleared up. I don't see the point in suppressing this debate before resolution (and I do seek an amiable resolution).........I feel it is better to address the problem and rebalance it than let it fester and become a lurking warm evil only to re-appear in a more serious and difficult to resolve form at a future time. As some wisely say, if you don't like the topic or content ........delete it. THe same can be said of this discussion. On 21/09/2004, at 2:42 AM, Rich wrote: > I believe that this is a very narrow definition of TCM. TCM, as this > forum is titled, is much broader in scope and includes Tuina/Anmo > (different regions refer to it differently, Qigong and many > sub-specialties including Gua Sha, cupping, etc. > Rich, I totally agree it is the narrow definition. The broad definition includes all you say above. However, when I am talking about gua sha, acupuncture or qigong, I will say gua sha, acupuncture or qigong. If I say TCM, I am usually referring to it in the narrow sense....ie. Chinese herbal medicine......as they tend to do in my school and in China. I could however use the the CHM (Chinese herbal medicine) if it would clear it up for you. As I think we agree, TCM refers to the modern, streamlined version of Chinese medicine as organised and recognised by the Chinese government. As such, the foundations of TCM theory are basically identical for gua sha, acupuncture, qigong and CHM in this style of . Other schools of qigong etc may not adhere to these foundations; and are thus not part of the " official " TCM, but a part of the larger practice of Chinese medicine. I place no value judgement on the practices inside or outside this somewhat recent and arguably artificial separation. However, I still maintain that the practice of TCM (not ALL Chinese medicine) is bound by a common theoretical foundation, several types of diagnosis, syndrome differentiation, a logically derived treatment principle from this and suitable choice of prescription designed specifically to address the imbalance identified through this process. > First, he does not, and cannot, legally " diagnose " . What he does, is > palpate the body observing the body for blockages and areas of > stagnation. He confirms this through touch, energetic sensing, > responses from the client, and basic " intuition " which he has > developed during his 30 years of practice. " Cold qi " really does feel > cold. Even with my rudimentary capabilities - compared to him - I can > feel it. Qi has really two basic qualities - warm and cold > (Yang/Ying) with an infinite number of gradiations. When it is very > cold, it is like " ice " and creates lots of energetic blockages > (stagnation) which we feel as cold, highly condensed qi. > > I do not think this approach is at all unique. I have read other > pracitioners descriibe similar approaches. This approach could be > applied to many other types of modalities. It all depends upon one's > own skills and training. > > This is part of a process of diagnosis to me. Legally we can not make a Western medical diagnosis; we can however say the patients diagnosis is chronic cough due to lung yin vacuity in TCM. This is perfectly appropriate in CHM and ethically necessary also. > Yes, but I would be very surprised if the term TCM equates to TCM > herbalism in the minds of most clients and practitioners. If it does, > then I would suggest that TCM schools and literature are not > adequately covering alternative TCM approaches that may greatly > benefit clients and patients. > Others on the list can say whether or not they see TCM in the narrow sense as CHM or not. However my time in China and during my education this was indeed the case. My education did cover gua sha, tuina, qigong, dietary therapy but to a less intensive level that CHM and acupuncture. > Diagnosis all has many different meanings an contexts between > practitioners - TCM or otherwise. I have witnessed many times in my > history, two TCM practitioners diagnosising in completely different > manners with completely different end diagnosis. > Perhaps unfortunately, this has been my experience also. The proof is in the pudding here, no system is perfect. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Absoluetly I agree with that too....by all means disagree and challenge views, but don't allow rage to take a hold. - " " <zrosenbe <Chinese Medicine > Monday, September 20, 2004 5:21 PM Re: My Background > > There is another purpose for this forum, and that is educating and > sharing information with students, fellow practitioners and the general > public. We have a responsibility to air informed opinions, not just > any idea that misrepresents the actual subject at hand. Why shouldn't > anyone disagree with an opinion and challenge it, if it seems out in > left field? > > > On Sep 20, 2004, at 9:00 AM, Dermot O'Connor wrote: > > > I find many of Rich's views interesting and would also disagree with > > many of > > his views. But that is what I would expect from a discussion forum. > > This > > aggressive " hounding " seems way over the top to me. > > > > Here is a handy tip. If someone expresses a view that you find > > ridiculous.....click " delete " > > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > and adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 On 21/09/2004, at 3:19 AM, rayford wrote: > Palpation of the muscle and fascia,not just " pressing points " as Zev > mentioned is not part of TCM .After four years of TCM training I went > to > Sydney University for two years(part time)to REALLY learn about > anatomy.That > was some time ago things have changed.To locate and release tight > restricted > muscles and fascia requires an intimate knowledge of those tissues not > just > points that is not enough or the pressing of those points. > Ray, I understand what you are saying here and have a personal interest in the subtleties of such palpatory diagnostic techniques myself; I have yet to study them formally but hope to in the future. I agree that such specialised palpatory skills are not the " meat and veg " of current TCM acupuncture education (sadly). > Other than Stagnant Qi or blocked Qi NO- TCM diagnosis is required.Is > this > so difficult to understand or accept?It is fact!So finally to locate > release > and clear so many physical problems and effect the underlyingg viscera > requires NO diagnosis UNLESS you really want to make one up but it > doesn't > require one.This may be hard to swallow after years of honest study > spectacular results are possible. > > Hang on a moment; I never said a TCM diagnosis was necessary for a non-TCM therapy. Could I ask, with genuine interest, not bickering intent; what you would call a problem located in the muscle and fascia? Would you note in your patient record its location and " feel " , the meridian or vessel involved etc? If so, I would call this part of a diagnosis......just perhaps not a TCM one (and once again I say that if you are not practising TCM directly.....you don't need a TCM diagnosis). To me, abdominal pain is a diagnosis, just not a specific or particularly helpful one. So perhaps we are in conflict over what is a TCM diagnosis versus a different type of investigation/diagnosis. Best Wishes, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 I am sorry, but I must stop asking you to misrepresent my position or what I say in print. I am presently reading material from a Beijing physician who palpates channels and practices in a Nan Jing tradition of acupuncture. If you want to include western anatomy and physiology as a requirement, you are going into the realm of western medicine. On Sep 20, 2004, at 10:19 AM, rayford wrote: > Palpation of the muscle and fascia,not just " pressing points " as Zev > mentioned is not part of TCM .After four years of TCM training I went > to > Sydney University for two years(part time)to REALLY learn about > anatomy.That > was some time ago things have changed.To locate and release tight > restricted > muscles and fascia requires an intimate knowledge of those tissues not > just > points that is not enough or the pressing of those points. Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 ---- Chinese Medicine Tuesday, 21 September 2004 1:44:18 AM Chinese Medicine Re: My Background Hi Ray, STEVE The issue has nothing to do with being TCM or non-TCM. The issue is about knocking TCM without actually understanding the system of TCM is to begin with. RAY Although you did seem to take it personally STEVE Personally, I don't want this list to be restrictive to ANY type of professional healthcare. In fact, I would be very interested to learn more about the " Japanese " acupuncture styles as I have found that clinically; the TCM style acupuncture I initially trained in (particularly as practised in China) is not well tolerated by many of us lao wai....and have therefore reduced needle size, depth and manipulation in a majority of my patients with no noticeable loss in clinical effectiveness. RAY So maybe you are no longer practicing TCM when you practice this style of acupuncture? STEVE I don't think I ever suggested Kiiko Matsumoto or any other practitioner has the wrong idea on anything; just a certain individual without professional training who continually .....no no, won't go there again. RAY Its the way that is conveyed that counts STEVE This is not about Rich's personal area of expertise; it is about the boundaries on this list not being stepped over. RAY Boundaries are just that.Rich has been saying this stuff for months.You obviously protect those boundaries. STEVE You don't need to state your background, but it is impressive! Only one individuals background was questioned, and it turns out to be for very good reason in the eyes of more than a few on this list. RAY well done!!! STEVE Incidentally, do you currently practice in Australia? If so, you would know that it is also a legal responsibility to have a reasonably complete patient record with signs/symptoms, a working diagnosis, syndrome differentiation, matching treatment principle and treatment prescription for each patient visit. This is the STANDARD for a registered professional of TCM in Australia. RAY At NO point did i ever say that i did not keep records!Nor did I say that i did not know the standard laws as a practitioner.I was giving an opinion about what is possible about TREATMENT not what I do. STEVE Diagnosis, may not apply to other therapies, and I was not suggesting that it did or would be unethical in OTHER therapies. However, I do find it hard to believe any professional health care provider would treat a patient without a diagnosis, at least in the patient record.............that would do your profession no favours and will land your butt in a WHOLE heap of trouble if a patient ever took you to court for malpractice or injury compensation. RAY Well Steve thanks for the advice. Best Wishes, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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