Guest guest Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Hi All, Does anyone know what orange stools indicates? I am treating someone with this symptom and can't find any information about it. I am concerned that it might indicate blood, but he says that it doesn't seem like blood (and blood would normally make it dark). He has a history of alcoholism and has been sober for most of the past few months. He has pain below his navel, centrally located, accompanied by low energy, light headedness, and very weak pulses. The stools have been orange off and on for many months, but consistenly for the past couple weeks. He as several bowel movements a day and urinates more frequently than before. He has been on several trials of different psychiatric meds in the past 6 months--antidepressants and antipsychotics (his alcoholism led to some paranoia with voices in the past year)---and quit them all about a month ago. If you read my post about treating a friend who has psychotic symptoms, its the same guy. I've wondered if the stool problem is related to detoxing from the meds. It also strikes me as likely related to the liver/gallbladder. This is someone I care a lot about, and am very concerned. Thanks in advance for any ideas-- Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 There are lots of markers to diagnosis: HT and ST involved [red + yellow = orange] LI involved [sT and LI related by Yang Ming connection] LV Wood stagnated, [alcoholism and odd drugs during trials which ended up in LV and had to be detoxicated]. Kidney reflex [pain and tenderness at Ren 6 and 5] < You have an illness which involves Wood, Fire, Earth and Water > Let's discuss thsi: Which is the dominent element, the primary? It cannot be HT and ST because the color of stool shows them as the element which registers symptoms, and that is by and large the scondary. The element at the root cause is usually silent. This could be LV Wood. The pattern visible is a. LV Stagnated as primary b. HT Weak as secondary by Shen cycle, the Son unnourished c. ST Oppressed as secondary by Ko cycle, the oppressed element. Provisional diagnosis: [there are so many more signs one can see if patient present] LV Stagnated, occasionally running to Fire; HT Deficient, ST Oppressed. To confirm: Look at tongue, sides should be crenellated and somewhjat red. ST area should be bulbuous or somewhat fissured. Tip should be red, so also tongue in general, but slightly. Toungue ought to tremble a great deal. Coat should be excessive [recent condition] or lacking [chronic] Pulse if wiry and rigid would be fun, but by and large wiriness does not persist. For certain look for wiry at ST, or even LI positions, or naywhere elese. Palpate LV 14 right side, if very tender, you got it made, this is LV Excess. If dull, LV Stagnated. Hopefully left LV 14 is not tender. Palpate LV 2 both. If tender LV is involved. Palpate for GB tenderness: Project a line from navel at 45 degrees to his right lower ribs. A spot at maybe the 10 or 11 rib, if tapped smartly, can be very painful. Palpate GB 39 on right. If very tender or just tender, GB is ijn flux. If oyu confirm LV write back and I'll tell you a neat way to resolve all this. When at leisure visit this site to get an idea of composite colors. http://www.earthboundlight.com/phototips/20031221.html Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Hi Laura, Your patient needs a stool test to rule out blood regardless of what he thinks. The type of bleeding that causes dark (tarry) stools is when it is up higher in the G.I. tract. If bleeding occurs lower in the tract, it can maintain more of a reddish color. Matt Bauer - heylaurag Chinese Medicine Friday, July 09, 2004 1:31 AM Orange stools? Please help.... Hi All, Does anyone know what orange stools indicates? I am treating someone with this symptom and can't find any information about it. I am concerned that it might indicate blood, but he says that it doesn't seem like blood (and blood would normally make it dark). He has a history of alcoholism and has been sober for most of the past few months. He has pain below his navel, centrally located, accompanied by low energy, light headedness, and very weak pulses. The stools have been orange off and on for many months, but consistenly for the past couple weeks. He as several bowel movements a day and urinates more frequently than before. He has been on several trials of different psychiatric meds in the past 6 months--antidepressants and antipsychotics (his alcoholism led to some paranoia with voices in the past year)---and quit them all about a month ago. If you read my post about treating a friend who has psychotic symptoms, its the same guy. I've wondered if the stool problem is related to detoxing from the meds. It also strikes me as likely related to the liver/gallbladder. This is someone I care a lot about, and am very concerned. Thanks in advance for any ideas-- Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2004 Report Share Posted July 10, 2004 Hi, lots of carrot juice can do that, as in LOTS. Best guess is digestive enzyme anormality so liv/gb disorder - gall stones is possible too - acounts for the pain possibly, as well. stephen > Hi Laura, > > Your patient needs a stool test to rule out blood regardless of what he thinks. The type of bleeding that causes dark (tarry) stools is when it is up higher in the G.I. tract. If bleeding occurs lower in the tract, it can maintain more of a reddish color. Matt Bauer > - > heylaurag > Chinese Medicine > Friday, July 09, 2004 1:31 AM > Orange stools? Please help.... > > > Hi All, > > Does anyone know what orange stools indicates? I am treating someone > with this symptom and can't find any information about it. I am > concerned that it might indicate blood, but he says that it doesn't > seem like blood (and blood would normally make it dark). He has a > history of alcoholism and has been sober for most of the past few > months. He has pain below his navel, centrally located, accompanied > by low energy, light headedness, and very weak pulses. The stools > have been orange off and on for many months, but consistenly for the > past couple weeks. He as several bowel movements a day and urinates > more frequently than before. He has been on several trials of > different psychiatric meds in the past 6 months--antidepressants and > antipsychotics (his alcoholism led to some paranoia with voices in > the past year)---and quit them all about a month ago. If you read my > post about treating a friend who has psychotic symptoms, its the same > guy. I've wondered if the stool problem is related to detoxing from > the meds. It also strikes me as likely related to the > liver/gallbladder. This is someone I care a lot about, and am very > concerned. Thanks in advance for any ideas-- > > Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2004 Report Share Posted July 10, 2004 Hi, Laura. Is it Possible he has a similar presentation to Primary Biliary Cirrhosis? Here is a link for info; http://www.medicinenet.com/Primary_Biliary_Cirrhosis/article.htm Has patient been on antibiotic Cefprozil? Is he HIV+? > Does anyone know what orange stools indicates? He has pain below his navel, centrally located, accompanied by low energy, light headedness, and very weak pulses. The stools have been orange off and on for many months, but consistenly for the past couple weeks. He has been on several trials of different psychiatric meds in the past 6 months--antidepressants and antipsychotics (his alcoholism led to some paranoia with voices in the past year)---and quit them all about a month ago. It also strikes me as likely related to the liver/gallbladder. Mail - You care about security. So do we. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 Hi again, Laura. I hesitate to get too involved in on-line diagnosis, because a picture is worth a thousand words(should we get clinic web cams?), and I only am at a computer sporadically. Lets look at this poor guy's problem from TCM perspective scince this is the group for it. I like tongue info for damp, phlegm, bld stag, and heat/cold signs and so on. Combined with pulse data, it helps reinforce or complete the present picture. Is the BM watery? Appetite down or is uncomfortable after eating? Liver/gallbladder calls out. Can you tell if liver is too hard as you palpate it? The color sounds more like a digestive or fats abnormality, or more unlikely parasites, than a blood leakage, but they can co-present. color and pain signifies for me more damp heat in Lower Jiao with bld stagnation, also deficient slpeen qi. Heat or cold should be ascertained. Sometimes they alternate. Look at tongue, assess LJ for heat or cold and bld stagnation. Be more specific w pulse feelings. Lab tests and TCM are a great combo. If can afford them why not use them. Good luck to you. Mail is new and improved - Check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Hi Laura: In Vet Physiology class 1960, we learned: " The bile of the liver saponifies fat; it helps to absorb and emulsify that. It saves putrefaction and purges a bit, and stercobilinogen colours the s**t " . Though there could be many other causes, yellow stool can arise in LV or GB disease, with exhaustion of bile production, or biliary obstruction. Chronic alcoholism / LV cirrhosis, and use of heavy medication (which requires LV metabolism / detox), may have a key role to play here. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Hi, not to sound too western medicinish but has your patient been worked up for hepatitis? What color is his skin? I'm new to working TCM but have been in western medicine for 20 years and it could be a symptom of the above. Hope this doesn't offend anyone, just a thought. Mike stephen macallan <stephenmacallan wrote:Hi, lots of carrot juice can do that, as in LOTS. Best guess is digestive enzyme anormality so liv/gb disorder - gall stones is possible too - acounts for the pain possibly, as well. stephen > Hi Laura, > > Your patient needs a stool test to rule out blood regardless of what he thinks. The type of bleeding that causes dark (tarry) stools is when it is up higher in the G.I. tract. If bleeding occurs lower in the tract, it can maintain more of a reddish color. Matt Bauer > - > heylaurag > Chinese Medicine > Friday, July 09, 2004 1:31 AM > Orange stools? Please help.... > > > Hi All, > > Does anyone know what orange stools indicates? I am treating someone > with this symptom and can't find any information about it. I am > concerned that it might indicate blood, but he says that it doesn't > seem like blood (and blood would normally make it dark). He has a > history of alcoholism and has been sober for most of the past few > months. He has pain below his navel, centrally located, accompanied > by low energy, light headedness, and very weak pulses. The stools > have been orange off and on for many months, but consistenly for the > past couple weeks. He as several bowel movements a day and urinates > more frequently than before. He has been on several trials of > different psychiatric meds in the past 6 months--antidepressants and > antipsychotics (his alcoholism led to some paranoia with voices in > the past year)---and quit them all about a month ago. If you read my > post about treating a friend who has psychotic symptoms, its the same > guy. I've wondered if the stool problem is related to detoxing from > the meds. It also strikes me as likely related to the > liver/gallbladder. This is someone I care a lot about, and am very > concerned. Thanks in advance for any ideas-- > > Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 When practising TCM or Ap, dont forget to read some good clinical medicine books as the Cecil or the Harrison's, may be you find more idea about stool color and other topics. I suppose are necessary further stydy to pratctise TCM and others. Marvi - " Michael Olofson " <needlu2 <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, July 15, 2004 3:33 AM Re: Orange stools? Please help.... > Hi, not to sound too western medicinish but has your patient been worked up for hepatitis? What color is his skin? I'm new to working TCM but have been in western medicine for 20 years and it could be a symptom of the above. Hope this doesn't offend anyone, just a thought. Mike > > stephen macallan <stephenmacallan wrote:Hi, > lots of carrot juice can do that, as in LOTS. Best guess is > digestive enzyme anormality so liv/gb disorder - gall stones is > possible too - acounts for the pain possibly, as well. > > stephen > > > Hi Laura, > > > > Your patient needs a stool test to rule out blood regardless of what he thinks. The type of bleeding that causes dark (tarry) stools is when it is up higher in the G.I. tract. If bleeding occurs lower in the tract, it can maintain more of a reddish color. Matt Bauer > > - > > heylaurag > > Chinese Medicine > > Friday, July 09, 2004 1:31 AM > > Orange stools? Please help.... > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > Does anyone know what orange stools indicates? I am treating someone > > with this symptom and can't find any information about it. I am > > concerned that it might indicate blood, but he says that it doesn't > > seem like blood (and blood would normally make it dark). He has a > > history of alcoholism and has been sober for most of the past few > > months. He has pain below his navel, centrally located, accompanied > > by low energy, light headedness, and very weak pulses. The stools > > have been orange off and on for many months, but consistenly for the > > past couple weeks. He as several bowel movements a day and urinates > > more frequently than before. He has been on several trials of > > different psychiatric meds in the past 6 months--antidepressants and > > antipsychotics (his alcoholism led to some paranoia with voices in > > the past year)---and quit them all about a month ago. If you read my > > post about treating a friend who has psychotic symptoms, its the same > > guy. I've wondered if the stool problem is related to detoxing from > > the meds. It also strikes me as likely related to the > > liver/gallbladder. This is someone I care a lot about, and am very > > concerned. Thanks in advance for any ideas-- > > > > Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Hi--I've been urging him to go to an MD and get some tests done. He had an appointment Monday, but got sick with vomiting and diarrhea so he missed the appointment. I had given him a treatment that was clearing out dampheat and phlegm on Sunday night, so it may have been a " healing crisis " . His stools have not been orange since then. We'll see. Laura Chinese Medicine , " Marco Visconti " <agomar@f...> wrote: > When practising TCM or Ap, dont forget to read some good clinical medicine > books as the Cecil or the Harrison's, may be you find more idea about stool > color and other topics. > I suppose are necessary further stydy to pratctise TCM and others. > > Marvi > - > " Michael Olofson " <needlu2> > <Chinese Medicine > > Thursday, July 15, 2004 3:33 AM > Re: Orange stools? Please help.... > > > > Hi, not to sound too western medicinish but has your patient been worked > up for hepatitis? What color is his skin? I'm new to working TCM but have > been in western medicine for 20 years and it could be a symptom of the > above. Hope this doesn't offend anyone, just a thought. Mike > > > > stephen macallan <stephenmacallan@u...> wrote:Hi, > > lots of carrot juice can do that, as in LOTS. Best guess is > > digestive enzyme anormality so liv/gb disorder - gall stones is > > possible too - acounts for the pain possibly, as well. > > > > stephen > > > > > Hi Laura, > > > > > > Your patient needs a stool test to rule out blood regardless of what he > thinks. The type of bleeding that causes dark (tarry) stools is when it is > up higher in the G.I. tract. If bleeding occurs lower in the tract, it can > maintain more of a reddish color. Matt Bauer > > > - > > > heylaurag > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Friday, July 09, 2004 1:31 AM > > > Orange stools? Please help.... > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > Does anyone know what orange stools indicates? I am treating someone > > > with this symptom and can't find any information about it. I am > > > concerned that it might indicate blood, but he says that it doesn't > > > seem like blood (and blood would normally make it dark). He has a > > > history of alcoholism and has been sober for most of the past few > > > months. He has pain below his navel, centrally located, accompanied > > > by low energy, light headedness, and very weak pulses. The stools > > > have been orange off and on for many months, but consistenly for the > > > past couple weeks. He as several bowel movements a day and urinates > > > more frequently than before. He has been on several trials of > > > different psychiatric meds in the past 6 months-- antidepressants and > > > antipsychotics (his alcoholism led to some paranoia with voices in > > > the past year)---and quit them all about a month ago. If you read my > > > post about treating a friend who has psychotic symptoms, its the same > > > guy. I've wondered if the stool problem is related to detoxing from > > > the meds. It also strikes me as likely related to the > > > liver/gallbladder. This is someone I care a lot about, and am very > > > concerned. Thanks in advance for any ideas-- > > > > > > Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 That's good, we dont need to forget our responsibility on healt of a person!! Marvi - " heylaurag " <heylaurag <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:16 PM Re: Orange stools? Please help.... > Hi--I've been urging him to go to an MD and get some tests done. He > had an appointment Monday, but got sick with vomiting and diarrhea so > he missed the appointment. I had given him a treatment that was > clearing out dampheat and phlegm on Sunday night, so it may have been > a " healing crisis " . His stools have not been orange since then. > We'll see. > > Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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