Guest guest Posted June 25, 2004 Report Share Posted June 25, 2004 In a message dated 6/25/2004 1:57:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grein writes: What is un-natural is to take pain killing drugs which disrupt this communication pathway Unless of course the pain becomes chronic. The seratonin levels can be depleted and the patient becomes " clinically " depressed. Susan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2004 Report Share Posted June 25, 2004 Hi Mystir, & All, Mystir wrote: > ... If we can't feel pain, we can't know joy ... Pain is a prime > fundamental stimulus. It steers us toward non-pain. Agreed 100%. Most acute/immediate pain has a warning or protective function: it warns us to be careful, to protect the painful area. If we did not feel pain, we could unknowingly leave our hand on a red hot ovenplate, run on a fractured ankle, etc. But most chronic pain has lost its immediate " warning " function. Some writers talk about " pain memory " . Animals and humans remember movements / actions that caused them pain in the past, but retain the guarding reflex long after the primary cause of the pain is gone. As well as treating related trigger points and secondary muscle spasm, etc, these subjects need to be taught that they do not need to " guard " the area any more. Also, the excitement of battle, highly competitive contact sports, or training in meditation or the martial arts, etc., can cause a great increase in pain threshold and pain tolerance, but still leaves the basic protective aspect of pain intact. > If I eat 16 ounces of garlicy, peppery hummus before bed and didn't > feel like crap next morning, I wouldn't know not to do it again. > etc etc. Sorry to be dumb. You are not dumb! That is common sense. Rich wrote: > ... Pain is as much part of life as is No Pain. Pain is there so > that our Mind knows that it is time to Change and Learn. I know of > no person who has never been in Pain. It is as natural as any other > feeling and emotion that we may endure in Life. And when we are > sucessful in ridding ourselves of one Pain - to be sure another one > is not far behind. It is Life and I accept it. :-) Best, Rich Agreed. That is why earthly existence is sometimes called the " Valley of Tears " , but it is also the Valley of Laughter and Joy if we want it to be so. Physical, mental/emotional and Spiritual pain are as real as joy and pleasure in those realms. IMO, the worst pain is Spiritual, the sense of isolation from positive Spirits, especially the Great Spirit - God. Thank God, my pains [in the past] have been only in the physical and mental/emotional areas. The body dies; after death there is no more physical or mental/emotional pain. But the Spirit lives on and the Spirit in severe pain (in self-chosen isolation from its Creator) is a terrible concept. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2004 Report Share Posted June 25, 2004 > : > But the Spirit lives on and the Spirit in > severe pain (in self-chosen isolation from its Creator) is a terrible > concept. > > Hearsay? Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2004 Report Share Posted June 25, 2004 Pain is the " natural " response of the body to noxious stimuli in the environment. It is a peripheral signal which translates to the brain that there is a problem. What is un-natural is to take pain killing drugs which disrupt this communication pathway Glen Rein, Ph.D. new member Dr. Holmes Keikobad [acuheal] Friday, June 25, 2004 12:18 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Pain not natural? > : > But the Spirit lives on and the Spirit in > severe pain (in self-chosen isolation from its Creator) is a terrible > concept. > > Hearsay? Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. http://babel.altavista.com/ <http://babel.altavista.com/> <> and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2004 Report Share Posted June 25, 2004 Doesn't the word " natural " often get over-used with the implication that it is therefore good. After all a nuclear bomb is " natural " but it can still ruin your day. By the way, how do we know if seratonin levels are being depleted....is there a seratonin level test? - <Docvite <Chinese Medicine > Friday, June 25, 2004 7:02 PM Re: Pain not natural? > > In a message dated 6/25/2004 1:57:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > grein writes: > > What is un-natural is to take pain killing drugs which > disrupt this communication pathway > > > > Unless of course the pain becomes chronic. The seratonin levels can be > depleted and the patient becomes " clinically " depressed. Susan > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2004 Report Share Posted June 26, 2004 If one will consider a painful state as natural, sooner or later this will make a pain free state unnatural. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2004 Report Share Posted June 26, 2004 Countless people have their bodies mutilated and organs ripped out and have had themselves subjected to superfluous surgery. Studies decades later say something mundane like a lumpectomy would have done as well as a total mastectomy. Maybe the practitioners long ago began admitting of the necessity of pain, just as we are doing in this time. What we consider a necessity, soon become the only choice. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2004 Report Share Posted June 26, 2004 I myself am not a fan of painful, traumatic 'healing crisis'. Also this an acupuncture type list, not a surgeon's surgery-first group. I don't understand how Chinese Medicine , " Dr. Holmes " <aryaone@e...> wrote: > Countless people have their bodies mutilated and organs ripped out and > have had themselves subjected to superfluous surgery. > > Studies decades later say something mundane like a lumpectomy would have > done as well as a total mastectomy. > > Maybe the practitioners long ago began admitting of the necessity of pain, > just as we are doing in this time. > > What we consider a necessity, soon become the only choice. > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad > MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ > www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. > NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2004 Report Share Posted June 26, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " Dr. Holmes " <aryaone@e...> wrote: > Countless people have their bodies mutilated and organs ripped out and > have had themselves subjected to superfluous surgery. Yes and it isn't much, if any better now. > Studies decades later say something mundane like a lumpectomy would >have done as well as a total mastectomy. But it wouldn't have provided as much cutting practice, statistical data, nor have been as profitable. > Maybe the practitioners long ago began admitting of the necessity >of pain, just as we are doing in this time. I am not admitting the necessity of most pain, I actually believe most pain is added on to natural change by lousy societal aquiesence. I think the world is ruled by sadists with veiled masochistic fantasies, whose final product will be another fantasy of final future control over a mass of depressed uneducated cud-chewing farm animals that spend thier time squabbling and kow-towing, instead of seeing their rights, food supply, water earth and air, health choices, participation in government and industrial development, diversity of fellow species, (and somehow everything else good) dissapearing. Most don't even see it happening, and are unable or refuse to feel it. ITS TOO PAINFUL! Seriously. > What we consider a necessity, soon become the only choice. Not if I can help it. Sorry to be a cassandra, Homi. But a little seer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2004 Report Share Posted June 26, 2004 Not too long ago when physicians were an astute group they wouldn't be caught dead performing surgery. That was the JOB of the barbers. Barber was a term for people who performed the 'barbaric'...not the cutting of hair. THEN the physicians SAW all the big bucks they could make by doing that which previously was 'barbaric' and the rest is history. Of course...NOW surgery is never 'barbaric'...right? Richard In a message dated 6/26/2004 12:22:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, acuheal writes: What I meant was that the physicians and surgeons were at some time in the past not scalpel happy, and were an astute group of professionals who dedicated their lives to a sound practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2004 Report Share Posted June 26, 2004 What I meant was that the physicians and surgeons were at some time in the past not scalpel happy, and were an astute group of professionals who dedicated their lives to a sound practice. A some the notion of " pain and rending is OK " crept in and this led to the present day crisis where one hears of surplus surgery and unnecessary tests. Maybe we as a fledgling profession are at the same pristine state, and we too can careen down the same grubby path if we don't watch what we agree to. Incidentally, all this pain we are talking about is at the expense of the patient, who is blissfully unaware of what is being cooked for him or her. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2004 Report Share Posted June 26, 2004 > ykcul_ritsym: > Not if I can help it. Sorry to be a cassandra, Homi. > But a little seer. > > There is no one but you, in this very populous universe of yours. Set your own law, and live by it. If you find many in it and a maddening crowd, you created it that way. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2004 Report Share Posted June 26, 2004 Hi Holmes & All, Holmes wrote: > If one will consider a painful state as natural, sooner or later > this will make a pain free state unnatural. I do not think that anyone said that a painful state is natural. Having the FACILITY to feel pain is natural, but a painful state is unnatural. It usually means that the subject has been exposed to some form of trauma (physical, mental or spiritual), or has pain referred from irritation of another body organ or part. The " Valley of Tears " reference does not mean ALWAYS tears, or always PAIN. Life is a mixture of sun and rain, joy and sorrow, laughter and tears, pleasure and pain, Being UNABLE to FEEL pain is a pathological state, IMO, definitely bad for one's survival in the long-term. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2004 Report Share Posted June 27, 2004 Hi all, > I do not think that anyone said that a painful state is natural. I think I did. :-) Pain is the state of " learning " . There is " good pain " while one is learning and there is " bad pain " when one is not learning. without pain there is no inducement to learn. And without pain there is no way of knowing that one is learning. Who would care to learn if life was eternal bliss? " Change " is the result of " pain " - I think. :-) Those who seek a life of " no pain " are subject to a life of frustration - which indeed can be very painful in a very continuous way. For me I enjoy the moments of happiness after the " pain " is gone and I learn from the pain that soon enough follows. I only seek to minimize my pain by not seeking too much happiness. It is like the waves in the ocean or the flow of the Yin/Yang symbol. One changes to the other in equal proportions. :-) It may be possible to have a life without pain - but that would seem to be a life without " change " - another way to describe death? :-) Is it then life?. I'll take life for what it is and see what it brings me. :-) Best all, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2004 Report Share Posted June 27, 2004 And not to miss the point, what we think acceptable about pain during treatment is what any patient coming for treatment will have to accept. We are setting limits of pain to be inflicted on someone ill, for whichever noble or pragmatic reason. This is probably the ultimate in deprivatiuon of choice. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2004 Report Share Posted June 27, 2004 " Dr. Holmes Keikobad " <acuheal wrote: >We are setting limits of pain to be inflicted on someone >ill, for whichever noble or pragmatic reason. >This is probably the ultimate in deprivatiuon of choice. Nobody's setting limits or concensus of acceptable pain for anybody here. Treatment needn't be another avenue of suffering. The point is to get rid of pain and it's source as much as possible, but how free and easy and painfree the person will become is also subject to their negative conditioning and the state of the present world system. If they could overcome, get above or beyond all the stimulii that grinds down joy and optimism, and holds the mind dark, heavy, isolated, heavy, familiar with self-imposed limitation, see themselves and other as more than serfs or victims of the Mills. Sometimes its only an act of will, or a lack of will that keeps some people unhappy. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2004 Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 Hi again Dr. Holmes, Actually, when I work on a client using tuina/qigong techniques, I allow the patient to guide me. Deep or shallow. Strong or soft. Here or there. I am there just to apply the external " qi " . My client is in charge of their body, mind and emotions - I hope. :-) Best, Rich Chinese Medicine , " Dr. Holmes Keikobad " <acuheal@e...> wrote: > And not to miss the point, what we think acceptable about pain during > treatment is what any patient coming for treatment will have to accept. > > We are setting limits of pain to be inflicted on someone ill, for whichever > noble or pragmatic reason. > > This is probably the ultimate in deprivatiuon of choice. > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad > MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ > www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. > NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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