Guest guest Posted May 29, 2004 Report Share Posted May 29, 2004 Hi all, I've been in the gynaecology outpatient department in the hospital this week and have noticed a high incidence of women of all ages having abortions. Do the classics discuss the moral aspects of abortion? Of course, this is not something new especially with China's one child policy. This is in some degree to be expected. I believe that a large proportion of women use IUDs (intra uterine devices). A large number of women are given drug induced abortions as a matter of their choice and not the doctors. I'm amazed that so many of these women end up coming back to the hospital with irregular menstruation caused by foetus residue and end up having to have a curettage. Is this a common occurrence in the west? All abortions are carried out using WM. Even though the classics talk of certain acupoints and herbs that are contraindicated in pregnancy, has anyone ever been asked or used these methods to induce an abortion or accidentally done so? It's not uncommon for a women to have more than 2-3 abortions in her 20s. I actually saw one women of 38 who had 6 abortions. She looked noticeably aged, which is unusual in Asia. Many of these women end up losing Qi, Blood, Essence and Tian Gui with continued abortions. What have other members noticed in their patients? Kind regards Attilio www.chinesedoctor.co.uk <http://www.chinesedoctor.co.uk/> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2004 Report Share Posted May 29, 2004 Hi Attilio What I have learned is that the recovery after abortion is as important as reconvery after giving birth, and this is not at all the perspective in west, at least not in Sweden. How do they relate to rehabilitation after abortion in China? Warm regards Holger 2004-05-29 kl. 03.49 skrev Attilio D'Alberto: > Hi all, > > I've been in the gynaecology outpatient department in the hospital > this week > and have noticed a high incidence of women of all ages having > abortions. Do > the classics discuss the moral aspects of abortion? > > Of course, this is not something new especially with China's one child > policy. This is in some degree to be expected. I believe that a large > proportion of women use IUDs (intra uterine devices). > > A large number of women are given drug induced abortions as a matter of > their choice and not the doctors. I'm amazed that so many of these > women end > up coming back to the hospital with irregular menstruation caused by > foetus > residue and end up having to have a curettage. Is this a common > occurrence > in the west? > > All abortions are carried out using WM. Even though the classics talk > of > certain acupoints and herbs that are contraindicated in pregnancy, has > anyone ever been asked or used these methods to induce an abortion or > accidentally done so? > > It's not uncommon for a women to have more than 2-3 abortions in her > 20s. I > actually saw one women of 38 who had 6 abortions. She looked noticeably > aged, which is unusual in Asia. Many of these women end up losing Qi, > Blood, > Essence and Tian Gui with continued abortions. What have other members > noticed in their patients? > > Kind regards > > Attilio > > www.chinesedoctor.co.uk <http://www.chinesedoctor.co.uk/> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Hi Holger, Yes, I agree that after an abortion a woman should receive appropriate support. To tell you the truth, I'm not sure if they have this support in China. I haven't noticed or heard of any, although family ties here are very strong with a large amount of parental and grandparental support. This may go someway to helping family members in times of crisis. What they do do, is to regulate the menstruation, which is more so than in other countries. Kind regards Attilio www.chinesedoctor.co.uk <http://www.chinesedoctor.co.uk/> Holger Wendt [holger.wendt] 29 May 2004 06:59 Chinese Medicine Cc: jan tornberg Re: Abortion Hi Attilio What I have learned is that the recovery after abortion is as important as reconvery after giving birth, and this is not at all the perspective in west, at least not in Sweden. How do they relate to rehabilitation after abortion in China? Warm regards Holger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Attilio: > To tell you the truth, I'm not sure if they have this support in China. I > haven't noticed or heard of any, although family ties here are very strong > with a large amount of parental and grandparental support. This may go > someway to helping family members in times of crisis. > > It is hard to believe that the great civilization which gave the world the delicate nuances of traditional healing, also learned to bind women's feet so they were mutilated, and took this as a mark of beauty. Then it was the foot, now it is the uterus so it does not create it's own kind. The Yang Tze basin in Cheen, and the Indus in Hind, hold the larger part of humanity, some 2 billion plus. Both on a regular basis kill and mutilate and ravage and rape their women, on basis of religion and culture and tradition. If we follow their healing thought, do we also in some sense , even in the most subliminal sense, a tendency to denigrate women? Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Dear Dr. Keikobad, > > If we follow their healing thought, do we also in some sense , even > in the most subliminal sense, a tendency to denigrate women? > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad I do not think so. People are cruel to each other in many ways in all parts of the world - whether it be men on men, men on woman, woman on men, or woman on woman. It is part of the world (universe?) that we live in. And from this begats the desire to heal and to be kinder. One is the flip side of the other - and I figure I am here in order to observe it, become aware of it, and understand it. BTW, I very much enjoyed your poem that you posted a week ago. I felt it was very much in the spirit of asian medicine. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Interesting, I was just reading a book that talked about the mutilation of women's feet and showed pictures. I'd heard about it before, but was shocked to see it. I think that every culture has its strenghts and weaknesses, just as every person and every thing. By the way, in my opinion, so does every medicine....there is a time for Western medicine for sure. One of the beautiful things that I believe that the west has brought to the world is western psychology (which is also worthy of criticism, but has done a heck of a lot more good than harm....not including psychiatric drugs in the equation). Eastern cultures do not tend to be as developed when it comes to " talking things out " , so to speak. Yet despite this brilliant development in western civilization we still have abominable aspects to our culture, and when it comes to medicine I prefer eastern. When it comes to religion, I prefer Eastern as well. For those of us who appreciate other cultures I think that there can be a tendency sometimes to idolize them (I'm not saying anyone here is doing that, I don't know you all that well to make that call)....but in my opinion all cultures probably have equal parts good and bad. So even if there is some risk of even subliminally subscibing to their tendency to denegrate women by subscribing to their medicine I think that the philosophy I would go by is: " don't throw out the baby with the bathwater " . In other words, I try to take what I like and leave the rest. But awareness is key. I was just reading through my " Redwing Books " catalogue of alternative health books and was surprised to see books about sexuality that are teachings by Chinese " courtesans " . In other words, these books are claiming that prostitutes in China can teach me how to have better sex....which really doesn't fit in with my experience of prostitutes when I worked in the mental health system. I think I'd prefer to read about how to improve my sex life from people who have been in an especially healthy long-term relationship where they have learned to keep their passion alive, perhaps through study human sexuality. See? I think its interesting that in the west we have looked up to Eastern culture so much that we can't see that a " Chinese courtesan " is a woman who has lived a life of oppression and has not had other choices much the same as prostitutes in America. Laura Chinese Medicine , " Dr. Holmes Keikobad " <acuheal@e...> wrote: > Attilio: > > To tell you the truth, I'm not sure if they have this support in China. I > > haven't noticed or heard of any, although family ties here are very strong > > with a large amount of parental and grandparental support. This may go > > someway to helping family members in times of crisis. > > > > > > It is hard to believe that the great civilization which gave the world the > delicate nuances of traditional healing, also learned to bind women's feet > so > they were mutilated, and took this as a mark of beauty. > > Then it was the foot, now it is the uterus so it does not create it's own > kind. > > The Yang Tze basin in Cheen, and the Indus in Hind, hold the larger > part of humanity, some 2 billion plus. > > Both on a regular basis kill and mutilate and ravage and rape their women, > on basis of religion and culture and tradition. > > If we follow their healing thought, do we also in some sense , even > in the most subliminal sense, a tendency to denigrate women? > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad > MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ > www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. > NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Listers, Let's bring this subject back to healing, and away from making statements about religion, culture, and tradition. - Mark > Dr. Holmes Keikobad wrote: > The Yang Tze basin in Cheen, and the Indus in Hind, hold the larger > part of humanity, some 2 billion plus. > > Both on a regular basis kill and mutilate and ravage and rape their > women, > on basis of religion and culture and tradition. > > If we follow their healing thought, do we also in some sense > , even > in the most subliminal sense, a tendency to denigrate women? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2004 Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 Hi Laura! I think you have to differentiate prostitution based on the values of the community. In nearly all of the US and a good deal of the modern world in general, prostitution is against the law so the prostitutes you were seeing in the mental health gig were also " criminals " . In the third world, however, prostitution is often legal and prostitutes are more respected, and therefore have better mental health as a result. In the US only in some counties of Nevada do you find a similar environment. At some Nevada brothels a girl can work for five years and be set for life, if she doesn't do drugs or alcohol with her money. The downside is that in those five years she is on " duty " 24/7 three weeks a month - can only leave the " house " during her period. This is not to mention all the blood tests she has to take to maintain her license. I wouldn't care for it. At 01:55 PM 5/30/2004, you wrote:<snip>surprised to see books about >sexuality that are teachings by Chinese " courtesans " . In other >words, these books are claiming that prostitutes in China can teach >me how to have better sex....which really doesn't fit in with my >experience of prostitutes when I worked in the mental health system. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2004 Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 heylaurag: > Interesting, I was just reading a book that talked about the > mutilation of women's feet and showed pictures. I'd heard about it > before, but was shocked to see it. > > I am an anatomist at heart and it fascinated me to find out the way this was done. It was with the usual meticulous attention to detail that tens of millions of small feet were mutilated and the growing girls consigned to perpetual pain and torture so that for centuries agony was part of life. The bandages were tied with just so much tension as to disallow growth while letting through blood. The first to stunt were the metatarsals, which at time splintered and remained in place by the hold of the bandages which served as a sort of a cast, and the bones calcified and healed but would never a running away, or even a rapid stride, keeping them captives. Next to give way were the navicular and adjacent small bones, which did not really crack but became lop sided and bizarre in growth. These would not articulate and the whole system of the two arches was wrecked. Finally, ligaments and tendons splayed, with an occasional ischemia and gangrene, in which case the woman was simply turned out, or smothered, or sold to slavery, or made into a grotesque whore, to take laborers and men of the brutal sort. The bandages were never loosened or taken off, for what began as compulsion, remained as support. If the woman ever walked without bandages, the foot broke in a dozen places. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2004 Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 Dear Dr. Keikobad, Considering your interest in the subject of foot binding, I thought I would share an interesting bit of information on the origin of that subject my teacher mentioned in one of his books: He stated that there once was a wife of an early Emperor who had some sort of foot deformity that caused her to walk with a distinctive sway that came to been seen as very elegant and beautiful. Early binding was done in an attempt to reproduce that much admired gait and only later became the extreme practice you describe in such vivid detail. Matt Bauer - Dr. Holmes Keikobad Chinese Medicine Sunday, May 30, 2004 11:56 PM Re: Abortion heylaurag: > Interesting, I was just reading a book that talked about the > mutilation of women's feet and showed pictures. I'd heard about it > before, but was shocked to see it. > > I am an anatomist at heart and it fascinated me to find out the way this was done. It was with the usual meticulous attention to detail that tens of millions of small feet were mutilated and the growing girls consigned to perpetual pain and torture so that for centuries agony was part of life. The bandages were tied with just so much tension as to disallow growth while letting through blood. The first to stunt were the metatarsals, which at time splintered and remained in place by the hold of the bandages which served as a sort of a cast, and the bones calcified and healed but would never a running away, or even a rapid stride, keeping them captives. Next to give way were the navicular and adjacent small bones, which did not really crack but became lop sided and bizarre in growth. These would not articulate and the whole system of the two arches was wrecked. Finally, ligaments and tendons splayed, with an occasional ischemia and gangrene, in which case the woman was simply turned out, or smothered, or sold to slavery, or made into a grotesque whore, to take laborers and men of the brutal sort. The bandages were never loosened or taken off, for what began as compulsion, remained as support. If the woman ever walked without bandages, the foot broke in a dozen places. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2004 Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 I saw a show a while back on television about foot binding. They interviewed some of the few remaining women alive who had done this. These women said that at certain intervals they unwrapped their feet to bathe them, and that was even more painful. Some of these women were not from wealthy families and labored in the fields and carried water with this deformity! Some had desired the procedure and were proud of it still, and some were forced into it. They were considered unmarriagable without it, and were considered beautiful with it, no matter what they looked like otherwise. Jody Herriott, L.Ac. - Dr. Holmes Keikobad Chinese Medicine Sunday, May 30, 2004 11:56 PM Re: Abortion heylaurag: > Interesting, I was just reading a book that talked about the > mutilation of women's feet and showed pictures. I'd heard about it > before, but was shocked to see it. > > I am an anatomist at heart and it fascinated me to find out the way this was done. It was with the usual meticulous attention to detail that tens of millions of small feet were mutilated and the growing girls consigned to perpetual pain and torture so that for centuries agony was part of life. The bandages were tied with just so much tension as to disallow growth while letting through blood. The first to stunt were the metatarsals, which at time splintered and remained in place by the hold of the bandages which served as a sort of a cast, and the bones calcified and healed but would never a running away, or even a rapid stride, keeping them captives. Next to give way were the navicular and adjacent small bones, which did not really crack but became lop sided and bizarre in growth. These would not articulate and the whole system of the two arches was wrecked. Finally, ligaments and tendons splayed, with an occasional ischemia and gangrene, in which case the woman was simply turned out, or smothered, or sold to slavery, or made into a grotesque whore, to take laborers and men of the brutal sort. The bandages were never loosened or taken off, for what began as compulsion, remained as support. If the woman ever walked without bandages, the foot broke in a dozen places. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2004 Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 Hi Pete, Actually I've read about very sad realities of prostitutes in China...but I think this topic is one of opinion. As a feminist and a mental health therapist who is particularly interested in human sexuality, I have thought a lot about this topic, (and I don't think its an easy one). So, if you don't mind, I will try to outline my thoughts in a concise manner...(I know some don't like this forum being used to talk about other issues, but I don't understand why...they don't have to click on these topics do they?): 1. I think prostitution should be legal, for many reasons. 2. As options go, sometimes prostitution is the best option available to a lonely " client " or a prostitute who, for whatever reason, is unable to do other work. But that doesn't make it a good thing. 3. I believe most if not all prostitution is essentially unhealthy (psychologically and spiritually...and energetically), even in a culture where there is less shame attached to it than ours. I think that it gets in the way of the pursuit of intimacy and the pursuit of purpose...but I won't list all the things that I think are unhealthy about it. 4. I should mention that one of the groups of people I work with as a counselor are the rapidly growing group of sex addicts out there, (now that we all have our own little computer at home, the temptation is irresistable to some, in exactly the same way that a drug you can access anytime, anywhere would be difficult for some to resist). From what I understand, our society is at extremes---either repressed with our sexuality or obsessed. One leads to the other. I try to be neither one. By the way, many sex addicts have no interest in sex with another person anymore. This would a good example of a time when I'd say sex with a prostitute is a healthier choice (as opposed to, say, a computer! ). 5. To bring this back to TCM, you wouldn't believe the kidney deficiency I've seen in sex addicts and prostitutes, without exception. But that's just my opinion, I think its a very complex topic and I am open to the possibility that some people really were meant to be prostitutes (for instance, as a way to nurture lonely people). Laura Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen <petet@a...> wrote: > Hi Laura! > > I think you have to differentiate prostitution based on the values of the > community. In nearly all of the US and a good deal of the modern world in > general, prostitution is against the law so the prostitutes you were seeing > in the mental health gig were also " criminals " . In the third world, > however, prostitution is often legal and prostitutes are more respected, > and therefore have better mental health as a result. In the US only in some > counties of Nevada do you find a similar environment. > > At some Nevada brothels a girl can work for five years and be set for life, > if she doesn't do drugs or alcohol with her money. The downside is that in > those five years she is on " duty " 24/7 three weeks a month - can only leave > the " house " during her period. This is not to mention all the blood tests > she has to take to maintain her license. I wouldn't care for it. > > At 01:55 PM 5/30/2004, you wrote:<snip>surprised to see books about > >sexuality that are teachings by Chinese " courtesans " . In other > >words, these books are claiming that prostitutes in China can teach > >me how to have better sex....which really doesn't fit in with my > >experience of prostitutes when I worked in the mental health system. > > Regards, > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 The loss of qi and blood from an abortion is certainly something to be dealt with especially with tonic herbs and foods but, in my experience, it is the shen disturbance that is often suffered that is the deepest injury. Matt - Attilio D'Alberto Chinese Medicine Friday, May 28, 2004 6:49 PM Abortion Hi all, I've been in the gynaecology outpatient department in the hospital this week and have noticed a high incidence of women of all ages having abortions. Do the classics discuss the moral aspects of abortion? Of course, this is not something new especially with China's one child policy. This is in some degree to be expected. I believe that a large proportion of women use IUDs (intra uterine devices). A large number of women are given drug induced abortions as a matter of their choice and not the doctors. I'm amazed that so many of these women end up coming back to the hospital with irregular menstruation caused by foetus residue and end up having to have a curettage. Is this a common occurrence in the west? All abortions are carried out using WM. Even though the classics talk of certain acupoints and herbs that are contraindicated in pregnancy, has anyone ever been asked or used these methods to induce an abortion or accidentally done so? It's not uncommon for a women to have more than 2-3 abortions in her 20s. I actually saw one women of 38 who had 6 abortions. She looked noticeably aged, which is unusual in Asia. Many of these women end up losing Qi, Blood, Essence and Tian Gui with continued abortions. What have other members noticed in their patients? Kind regards Attilio www.chinesedoctor.co.uk <http://www.chinesedoctor.co.uk/> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Hi Laura! There is all sorts of prostitution. Some employees are " prostitutes " so to speak to their jobs. In cases where the employer does not give them any respect, and certainly no security. Interesting that Kidney deficiency is common amongst them as well. Maybe the workaholics also. At 02:29 PM 5/31/2004, you wrote:<snip> you wouldn't believe the kidney >deficiency I've seen in sex addicts and prostitutes, without >exception. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.