Guest guest Report post Posted May 21, 2004 > eliminating obstructions = eliminating excess, no? Not the way I view it. Where there is obstruction (like a dam) there is excess on one side and deficiency on the other - there is no flow. The deficient side will " dry up " unless the obstruction is removed. If we simply eliminate " excess " on the other side of the obstruction it will seem " fill up again " because of the obstruction (that is the excess will return) and it does not help the other side of the dam. However - given enough " force from the excess " it may force a collapse of the obstruction. This is how, I feel, proper selection of herbs may induce cure. But, I find it more difficult to find the correct herb selection (from experience) than it is to palpate the body and use manual and qigong techniques to remove the obstruction. I hope this better explains my perspective. Rich Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 21, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " Rich " <rfinkelstein@a...> wrote: > > > eliminating obstructions = eliminating excess, no? > > Not the way I view it. Where there is obstruction (like a dam) there > is excess on one side and deficiency on the other - there is no flow. > The deficient side will " dry up " unless the obstruction is removed. If > we simply eliminate " excess " on the other side of the obstruction it > will seem " fill up again " because of the obstruction (that is the > excess will return) and it does not help the other side of the dam. > the obstruction IS the excess -- for example, when we talk about breaking blood stasis the static blood is the excess which further obstructs the flow of qi and blood. rh Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 21, 2004 I agree there are many problems with translations since translations are intricately related to one's own, subjective experiences. People can try to translate qi, however a translator who has actually experienced an awareness of qi will translate much differently than one who just intellectually attempts to match words together. But this is the way life is - and I understand the nature of individual experiences and the effects it has on perception. Maciocia used the words that I related in my previous message on page 7 of his Foundations of . His strategies are often replicated in other texts that I have read. Wiseman basically says the same thing in his Fundamentals of , i.e., Correction of Yin and Yang surfeits and deficits. I have a different perspective from these points of views, but I understand their perspective. Thank you very much for the reference. I am very much looking forward to reading it, if a translation is available. Rich Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 21, 2004 > the obstruction IS the excess -- for example, when we talk about breaking blood > stasis the static blood is the excess which further obstructs the flow of qi and blood. > > rh I view it slightly differently. The excess for me is that what occurs behind the dam (the obstruction). Excess can manifest itself in any or all of the physical, emotional, spiritual, mental layers - anywhere in the body. In fact, in the worse case, I guess, excess can spread like crazy and totally out of control like a lake overflowing behind a dam. However, it would be remedial to try to drain the excess (the overflowing lake), since it would overflow once again once the next heavy rain comes along since the dam still remains. Similarly, it would do no good to tonify the deficient river that lies on the other side of the obstruction since the river would simply drain again because nothing is feeding it. I call this the deficiency side of the obstruction. The obstruction is that which causes all of this excess. If you would like to perceive what I call the obstruction as the same as excess, then I understand your point of view. From my perspective what is relevent is that treatment should be directed at removing this obstruction (or excess from your perspective) so that everything behind the dam can flow again (what I call the excess) - both internally and into the external universe. Rich Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 21, 2004 Sadly, My understanding is that Blue Poppy Press is deleting this title, translated by Chip Chace. It may still be available from Alibris.com. It is one of my favorite books. There is a french translation of the text available by Nguyen Van Nghi. On May 20, 2004, at 9:47 PM, Rich wrote: > > Thank you very much for the reference. I am very much looking forward > to reading it, if a translation is available. > > Rich > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 21, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " Rich " <rfinkelstein@a...> wrote: >From my perspective what is > relevent is that treatment should be directed at removing this > obstruction (or excess from your perspective) so that everything > behind the dam can flow again (what I call the excess) - both > internally and into the external universe. > okay... i think i understand... essentially you take issue with TCM because your definition of terminology differs even though you're saying the same thing ... it's not really anything new, even in herbal medicine, what you've described here could apply to for example Yue Ju Tang and some of the theories of its creator Zhu Danxi (Yin tends to deficiency, Yang to excess & depression is the mother of 10,000 diseases). so words are not adequate to express truths, the map is not the territory... just don't expect to understand others or be understood if you decide to develop your own meanings for what has become standard terminology. FWIW, the obstruction AND that which backs up behind it are both excess in TCM. Pathology in TCM can be analyzed in its most basic level by means of eight parameters, two of which are deficiency and excess -- it's going to be one or the other. There's no third category of non-excess obstruction. it gets more complex from there, of course -- Maciocia's four strategies are a distillation of eight methods and eight methods is really kind of oversimplified in and of itself, but you get the idea. robert hayden Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 21, 2004 > okay... i think i understand... essentially you take issue with TCM because your > definition of terminology differs even though you're saying the same thing ... No, this is not what I am saying, but it has been a very good discussion. Thank you for your ideas and sharing with me your perspective. Rich Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 21, 2004 I just read your post. What book are you referring to. Thanks <zrosenbe wrote:Sadly, My understanding is that Blue Poppy Press is deleting this title, translated by Chip Chace. It may still be available from Alibris.com. It is one of my favorite books. There is a french translation of the text available by Nguyen Van Nghi. On May 20, 2004, at 9:47 PM, Rich wrote: > > Thank you very much for the reference. I am very much looking forward > to reading it, if a translation is available. > > Rich > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 21, 2004 " Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxabustion " (Jia Yi Jing). On May 21, 2004, at 7:59 AM, Brian Hardy wrote: > I just read your post. What book are you referring to. Thanks > > <zrosenbe wrote:Sadly, > My understanding is that Blue Poppy Press is deleting this title, > translated by Chip Chace. It may still be available from > Alibris.com. > It is one of my favorite books. > > There is a french translation of the text available by Nguyen Van > Nghi. > > > On May 20, 2004, at 9:47 PM, Rich wrote: > > > > > Thank you very much for the reference. I am very much looking > forward > > to reading it, if a translation is available. > > > > Rich > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 21, 2004 Thanks... Brian <zrosenbe wrote: " Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxabustion " (Jia Yi Jing). On May 21, 2004, at 7:59 AM, Brian Hardy wrote: > I just read your post. What book are you referring to. Thanks > > wrote:Sadly, > My understanding is that Blue Poppy Press is deleting this title, > translated by Chip Chace. It may still be available from > Alibris.com. > It is one of my favorite books. > > There is a french translation of the text available by Nguyen Van > Nghi. > > > On May 20, 2004, at 9:47 PM, Rich wrote: > > > > > Thank you very much for the reference. I am very much looking > forward > > to reading it, if a translation is available. > > > > Rich > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 21, 2004 I can't find the book on Alibris. Looks like I am too late <zrosenbe wrote: " Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxabustion " (Jia Yi Jing). On May 21, 2004, at 7:59 AM, Brian Hardy wrote: > I just read your post. What book are you referring to. Thanks > > wrote:Sadly, > My understanding is that Blue Poppy Press is deleting this title, > translated by Chip Chace. It may still be available from > Alibris.com. > It is one of my favorite books. > > There is a french translation of the text available by Nguyen Van > Nghi. > > > On May 20, 2004, at 9:47 PM, Rich wrote: > > > > > Thank you very much for the reference. I am very much looking > forward > > to reading it, if a translation is available. > > > > Rich > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 21, 2004 Hi Brian and all interested in these Blue Poppy Books There is a specialised TCM internet bookstore in Belgium which keeps books in local stock also of the Blue Poppy books. I have managed to get the " Jia Yi Jing " and other books from the Great Masters Series and the books of Larre & Rochat from them within a few days. They ship worldwide via UPS. The bookstore is calles SATAS. You can find them at: www.satas.be Leave some for me as well ;-) Best wishes Alwin van Egmond --- Brian Hardy wrote: > I can't find the book on Alibris. Looks like I am too late > > <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: " Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxabustion " (Jia Yi Jing). > > > On May 21, 2004, at 7:59 AM, Brian Hardy wrote: > > > I just read your post. What book are you referring to. Thanks > > > > wrote:Sadly, > > My understanding is that Blue Poppy Press is deleting this title, > > translated by Chip Chace. It may still be available from > > Alibris.com. > > It is one of my favorite books. > > > > There is a french translation of the text available by Nguyen Van > > Nghi. > > > > > > On May 20, 2004, at 9:47 PM, Rich wrote: > > > > > > > > Thank you very much for the reference. I am very much looking > > forward > > > to reading it, if a translation is available. > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 21, 2004 Alwin: Thank you for the site. I looked up Jia Yi Jing by itself and under the master series, I also looked it up as Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxabustion and could not find it on the site. Do you have any other suggestions on looking up the book. Thanks again Brian wrote: Hi Brian and all interested in these Blue Poppy Books There is a specialised TCM internet bookstore in Belgium which keeps books in local stock also of the Blue Poppy books. I have managed to get the " Jia Yi Jing " and other books from the Great Masters Series and the books of Larre & Rochat from them within a few days. They ship worldwide via UPS. The bookstore is calles SATAS. You can find them at: www.satas.be Leave some for me as well ;-) Best wishes Alwin van Egmond --- Brian Hardy wrote: > I can't find the book on Alibris. Looks like I am too late > > <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: " Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxabustion " (Jia Yi Jing). > > > On May 21, 2004, at 7:59 AM, Brian Hardy wrote: > > > I just read your post. What book are you referring to. Thanks > > > > wrote:Sadly, > > My understanding is that Blue Poppy Press is deleting this title, > > translated by Chip Chace. It may still be available from > > Alibris.com. > > It is one of my favorite books. > > > > There is a french translation of the text available by Nguyen Van > > Nghi. > > > > > > On May 20, 2004, at 9:47 PM, Rich wrote: > > > > > > > > Thank you very much for the reference. I am very much looking > > forward > > > to reading it, if a translation is available. > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 21, 2004 Hi Brian Search for " Huang-fu Mi " as author and you will get this link: http://www.satas.be/aspscripts/catalogue/item.asp?tblitem_id=457 You will need to search from www.satas.be though because the ordering mechanism needs its context. Best wishes Alwin Chinese Medicine , Brian Hardy <mischievous00> wrote: > Alwin: > > Thank you for the site. I looked up Jia Yi Jing by itself and under the master series, I also looked it up as Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxabustion and could not find it on the site. Do you have any other suggestions on looking up the book. > > Thanks again > > Brian > > > @v... wrote: > Hi Brian and all interested in these Blue Poppy Books > > There is a specialised TCM internet bookstore in Belgium which keeps > books in local stock also of the Blue Poppy books. > > I have managed to get the " Jia Yi Jing " and other books from the > Great Masters Series and the books of Larre & Rochat from them within > a few days. They ship worldwide via UPS. > > The bookstore is calles SATAS. You can find them at: www.satas.be > > Leave some for me as well ;-) > > > Best wishes > > Alwin van Egmond > > --- Brian Hardy wrote: > > I can't find the book on Alibris. Looks like I am too late > > > > <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: " Systematic Classic of > Acupuncture and Moxabustion " (Jia Yi Jing). > > > > > > On May 21, 2004, at 7:59 AM, Brian Hardy wrote: > > > > > I just read your post. What book are you referring to. Thanks > > > > > > wrote:Sadly, > > > My understanding is that Blue Poppy Press is deleting this > title, > > > translated by Chip Chace. It may still be available from > > > Alibris.com. > > > It is one of my favorite books. > > > > > > There is a french translation of the text available by Nguyen Van > > > Nghi. > > > > > > > > > On May 20, 2004, at 9:47 PM, Rich wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you very much for the reference. I am very much looking > > > forward > > > > to reading it, if a translation is available. > > > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 22, 2004 Hi Brian I hoped the searching and ordering of " Jia Yi Jing " worked out for you. The search engine of SATAS is very picky when trying to match titles. You have to use almost the exact spelling they use, which is not very handy. I mostly use it with ISBN number to search on. ISBN-numbers are then again easily found using www.bestbookdeal.com which has a very good search engine for searching on titles. Best wishes Alwin --- @v... wrote: > Hi Brian > > Search for " Huang-fu Mi " as author and you will get this link: > http://www.satas.be/aspscripts/catalogue/item.asp?tblitem_id=457 > > You will need to search from www.satas.be though because the ordering > mechanism needs its context. > > Best wishes > > Alwin > > > > Chinese Medicine , Brian Hardy > <mischievous00> wrote: > > Alwin: > > > > Thank you for the site. I looked up Jia Yi Jing by itself and under > the master series, I also looked it up as Systematic Classic of > Acupuncture and Moxabustion and could not find it on the site. Do you > have any other suggestions on looking up the book. > > > > Thanks again > > > > Brian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
