Guest guest Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Hello all, What tcm herbs are useful at treating spirochetal and fungi inside the body and one the skin? Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 - " Paul Harmsen " <paulh01 <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Tuesday, May 27, 2008 9:00 PM [Chinese Traditional Medicine] biofilms > Hello all, > > What tcm herbs are useful at treating spirochetal and fungi inside the > body and one the skin? > > Paul ' P'au Darco. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Here are some herbs and formulas used for fungus on the skin. *http://tinyurl.com/6apqg5* On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 6:00 PM, Paul Harmsen <paulh01 wrote: > Hello all, > > What tcm herbs are useful at treating spirochetal and fungi inside the body > and one the skin? > > Paul > -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2008 Report Share Posted June 7, 2008 Thanks for the information Bill. I am treating a 12 year undiagnosed lyme infection with herbal medicine. All the while figuring out what will work out best. Paul Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Bill Cunningham " <billcu4 wrote: > > > - > " Paul Harmsen " <paulh01 > <Chinese Traditional Medicine > > Tuesday, May 27, 2008 9:00 PM > [Chinese Traditional Medicine] biofilms > > > > Hello all, > > > > What tcm herbs are useful at treating spirochetal and fungi inside the > > body and one the skin? > > > > Paul > ' > P'au Darco. > > Bill > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 Perhaps you should start out with an accurate diagnosis. Paul, would you like to see a doctor who treats you without knowing what he's treating? Don't mean to be a buzz kill here, and I realize that email communications may not provide adequate backstory for us to understand you're background, but these statements do cause some concern in my mind. While there is much about TCM that is very consumer friendly and allows for some basic self-diagnosis, we have no idea what you're dealing with and whether or not it is a life-threatening, but undiagnosed issue. -al. On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 1:36 PM, paulh01 <paulh01 wrote: > Thanks for the information Bill. I am treating a 12 year undiagnosed > lyme infection with herbal medicine. All the while figuring out what > will work out best. > > Paul > -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 I am seeing a doctor but all she can prescribe is antibiotics and antiparasitic for my infection. The disease that I am deeling with is called morgellons and its a combination of protothecosis and trypanospora. I also have a high chlamydia pneumonia titler. I am 24 and I know that this disease will probably lead to my death since the doctors are not sure on how to treat it. And I already have disseminated disease with confusion and seizures. I have been to doctors for the last two years and noone has been able to figure out what I was dealing with. Symptoms can include diarrhea, weight loss, weakness, inflammation of the eye (uveitis), retinal detachment, ataxia, and seizures.[11] This is the treatment that I have followed. Aloe vera juice, twice a day. Coconut oil. Chinese herbals for chronic bacterial infection, Forsythia formula 18. Acidopholis 2 pills twice a day. Zithromax 125mg Monday wed, friday. And minocycline, flagyl pulses for a high chlyimidia pneumonia titler. What do you think be done to increase my immune system some more. Symptoms can include diarrhea, weight loss, weakness, inflammation of the eye (uveitis), retinal detachment, ataxia, and seizures.[11] Here are somemore websites you can look at: http://www.cdc.gov/unexplaineddermopathy/ morgellons.com morgellons-research.org This condition is ramped here in America yet there are only few that know about it. Most doctors haven't heard about it. And since it is not written about in medical textbooks, doctors will look at you funny and send you to the pshychiatrist. Paul > Perhaps you should start out with an accurate diagnosis. > Paul, would you like to see a doctor who treats you without knowing what > he's treating? > > Don't mean to be a buzz kill here, and I realize that email communications > may not provide adequate backstory for us to understand you're background, > but these statements do cause some concern in my mind. > > While there is much about TCM that is very consumer friendly and allows for > some basic self-diagnosis, we have no idea what you're dealing with and > whether or not it is a life-threatening, but undiagnosed issue. > > -al. > > On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 1:36 PM, paulh01 <paulh01 wrote: > > > Thanks for the information Bill. I am treating a 12 year undiagnosed > > lyme infection with herbal medicine. All the while figuring out what > > will work out best. > > > > Paul > > > > > -- > , DAOM > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 6:17 PM, paulh01 <paulh01 wrote: > > > Symptoms can include diarrhea, weight loss, weakness, inflammation of > the eye (uveitis), retinal detachment, ataxia, and seizures.[11] > Paul, are these your symptoms? Or are these the symptoms listed at some website? What are your symptoms? -al. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 Hello Paul, Have your tried berberine? Colloidal silver topically (NOT internally)? Aloe and Coconut oil would not have much effect on parasites. To boost your immune system try Qigong. The Guo Lin family Qigong would be the one I would start with. You can get the forms and practices from my web sites: www.yuliqigong.com or www.JadePowerQigong.com Jeff paulh01 wrote: > > > This is the treatment that I have followed. Aloe vera juice, twice a > day. Coconut oil. Chinese herbals for chronic bacterial infection, > Forsythia formula 18. Acidopholis 2 pills twice a day. Zithromax > 125mg Monday wed, friday. And minocycline, flagyl pulses for a high > chlyimidia pneumonia titler. > > What do you think be done to increase my immune system some more. > > -- Jeff Smoley LMT MA 52162 www.JadePowerQigong.com www.yuliqigong.com www.SomaticSA.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 Many biofilms are the result of mycoplasma infections. I have used the products from Raintree Nutrition for two months at a time to help rid my body of mycoplasma infections. Here is a page which discusses the mycoplasma protocol from this company. It happens to be a UK page, but it lists the three formulas used as well as suggesting how the herbs are to be used (amount per day). I found on yet another site that the suggested length of time for use is two months and then a break of a month or so is taken. If necessary another round may used again. The break is suggested because these infections can get used to the herbs and build up resistance to them. It is such a shame that the main company which sells these herbs is unable to put the protocol for using them on their site. Some of the product names have changed: the is Amazon F-Gal is now Amazon A-F, and the immume product Imu-1 is called Immune Support. Myco+ name is the same. I used the liquid myco+ (rather than the capsules) as I felt it would be more easily absorbed. Here is the page which discusses how to use the herbs in the mycoplasma protocol: http://www.healing4all.co.uk/Rain_Forest_Herbs/Mycoplasmas/mycoplasmas.html This is the Raintree Nutrition page where the herbs are sold (although there are also other sites which sell their herbs): http://www.rain-tree.com/rtmprod.htm Here is a great article from the Raintree Nutrition site about mycoplasma infections: http://rain-tree.com/baseman-tully-article.htm best, Sarah Chinese Traditional Medicine , Paul Harmsen <paulh01 wrote: > > Hello all, > > What tcm herbs are useful at treating spirochetal and fungi inside the body and one the skin? > > Paul > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2008 Report Share Posted June 12, 2008 Hi All; " Biofilm " is the newest piece of jargon which describes a well-known but distasteful phenomena: phlegm, booger, mucous. Gosh ya think bacteria breed better inside a glob of phlegm. You don't say. I also doubt that the bacteria become resistant to the herbs. Not only do bacteria do poorly against complex substances, but they do need time to build up resistance. Antibiotic resistance didn't happen overnight - it happened after decades of overuse by tens of millions of people. I suspect that any claims of the bacteria developing resistance to the herbs is the glossing over of herb misapplication. As anyone with a CM background will know, a pathological processed must be " chased " through its differing changes and forms until it is finally resolved or expelled. This means no single herb or single formula to resolve complex problems. If your problem is very mild, then yes, that might work. Unfortunately those are getting rare in our modern age. Hugo baidanwu34 <baidanwu34 Chinese Traditional Medicine Wednesday, 11 June, 2008 8:58:40 AM [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: biofilms Many biofilms are the result of mycoplasma infections. I have used the products from Raintree Nutrition for two months at a time to help rid my body of mycoplasma infections. Here is a page which discusses the mycoplasma protocol from this company. It happens to be a UK page, but it lists the three formulas used as well as suggesting how the herbs are to be used (amount per day). I found on yet another site that the suggested length of time for use is two months and then a break of a month or so is taken. If necessary another round may used again. The break is suggested because these infections can get used to the herbs and build up resistance to them. It is such a shame that the main company which sells these herbs is unable to put the protocol for using them on their site. Some of the product names have changed: the is Amazon F-Gal is now Amazon A-F, and the immume product Imu-1 is called Immune Support. Myco+ name is the same. I used the liquid myco+ (rather than the capsules) as I felt it would be more easily absorbed. Here is the page which discusses how to use the herbs in the mycoplasma protocol: http://www.healing4 all.co.uk/ Rain_Forest_ Herbs/Mycoplasma s/mycoplasmas. html This is the Raintree Nutrition page where the herbs are sold (although there are also other sites which sell their herbs): http://www.rain- tree.com/ rtmprod.htm Here is a great article from the Raintree Nutrition site about mycoplasma infections: http://rain- tree.com/ baseman-tully- article.htm best, Sarah Chinese Traditional Medicine, Paul Harmsen <paulh01 > wrote: > > Hello all, > > What tcm herbs are useful at treating spirochetal and fungi inside the body and one the skin? > > Paul > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2008 Report Share Posted June 13, 2008 I believe the material holding together biofilms is called a polymer and contains polysaccharides. These may be both organic and inorganic in composition. Bacteria living in colonies and adhering to surfaces in the body are proving difficult to eradicate. The really scary thing is the fact that they may also adhere to non body surfaces such as plastic and metal. Many infections such as these are passed from patient to patient in hospitals by instruments which are sterilized but somehow these biofilms manage to survive. Calling biofilms mucus seems an over simplification of a serious and growing problem in hospitals and nursing homes. In fact even scientists discussing biofilms are having trouble defining them exactly. Something which happened to me while using the Raintree Nutrition mycoplasm protocol was really amazing although careless on my part. I used a cotton swab to clean out an area on my skin which looked like some kind of infection being forced out by the herbs. I set this swap down on a plastic lid I had for used swabs. For some reason I forgot to throw this last swab out into the plastic baggies I used to dispose of them. The next day this swab was glued to the plastic surface. Not only that there was a visible indentation in the plastic when I broke it loose. So I do believe there is a bit more going on than simple mucus holding together bacteria in such infections. It could be related to heavy metals and plastics which are ubiquitous in the environment and which doubtless build up a presence within the body, becoming mixed in with them to form part of the biofilm's polymers. Although there is no known resistance of bacteria to herbs the potential exists for any substance to eventually become so. Many herbalists fear that artemisinin (artemesia annua L) may become such an herb. So much is not known about what will happen when herbs are used as drugs in the Western sense, so it seems responsible and prudent for herbalists to suggest breaks from an herbal formula which is used for extended periods of time. I understand the Chinese medicine concepts of using herbs in formulas and tailoring such use to the individual and changes as they occur the body. It is the preferred way to use herbs. However many people do not have access to such extensive and prolonged treatment as in most cases such treatment is not covered by insurance or is even totally unavailable in their community. The reason I posted a South American herbal protocol which is used in a Western sense for a specific condition is that I found it helped me get out some of the infection I was combating. I tried it after extensive use of Chinese medicine which was done by a very good professional. I could no longer afford to do this and so have tried various herbal combinations to treat my own problem. Some with success and others with less success. Still at the time this is much less expensive for me. I am not saying this is the ideal way to treat a problem, but it is a more affordable one. This protocol has rid my body of a lot of the infection I had. I continue to work on it, sometimes using my limited knowledge of TCM patent herbs to help myself over the humps. So far I continue to improve. I believe much antibiotic resistance comes not just from overuse of them to treat illness, but also from the fact they are overused in agriculture for the raising of meat as well as in cows to increase milk production. In my own case I am very allergic to antibiotics but it is hard to avoid them in continuous trace amounts in many foods. I blame that more than I blame people for overuse of antibiotics, although I do believe that they should be reserved for emergency use and not used in simple illnesses. best, Sarah Chinese Traditional Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi All; > " Biofilm " is the newest piece of jargon which describes a well-known but distasteful phenomena: phlegm, booger, mucous. Gosh ya think bacteria breed better inside a glob of phlegm. You don't say. > I also doubt that the bacteria become resistant to the herbs. Not only do bacteria do poorly against complex substances, but they do need time to build up resistance. Antibiotic resistance didn't happen overnight - it happened after decades of overuse by tens of millions of people. > I suspect that any claims of the bacteria developing resistance to the herbs is the glossing over of herb misapplication. As anyone with a CM background will know, a pathological processed must be " chased " through its differing changes and forms until it is finally resolved or expelled. This means no single herb or single formula to resolve complex problems. If your problem is very mild, then yes, that might work. Unfortunately those are getting rare in our modern age. > > Hugo > > > > baidanwu34 <baidanwu34 > Chinese Traditional Medicine > Wednesday, 11 June, 2008 8:58:40 AM > [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: biofilms > > > Many biofilms are the result of mycoplasma infections. I have used > the products from Raintree Nutrition for two months at a time to help > rid my body of mycoplasma infections. Here is a page which discusses > the mycoplasma protocol from this company. It happens to be a UK > page, but it lists the three formulas used as well as suggesting > how the herbs are to be used (amount per day). I found on yet another > site that the suggested length of time for use is two months and then > a break of a month or so is taken. If necessary another round may > used again. The break is suggested because these infections can get > used to the herbs and build up resistance to them. It is such a shame > that the main company which sells these herbs is unable to put the > protocol for using them on their site. Some of the product names have > changed: the is Amazon F-Gal is now Amazon A-F, and the immume product > Imu-1 is called Immune Support. Myco+ name is the same. I used the > liquid myco+ (rather than the capsules) as I felt it would be more > easily absorbed. > > Here is the page which discusses how to use the herbs in the > mycoplasma protocol: > > http://www.healing4 all.co.uk/ Rain_Forest_ Herbs/Mycoplasma s/mycoplasmas. html > > This is the Raintree Nutrition page where the herbs are sold (although > there are also other sites which sell their herbs): > > http://www.rain- tree.com/ rtmprod.htm > > Here is a great article from the Raintree Nutrition site about > mycoplasma infections: > > http://rain- tree.com/ baseman-tully- article.htm > > best, Sarah > > Chinese Traditional Medicine, Paul Harmsen <paulh01@ > wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > > > What tcm herbs are useful at treating spirochetal and fungi inside > the body and one the skin? > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2008 Report Share Posted June 13, 2008 Dear Sarah and All; Phlegm and mucous are not innocuous simply because we all have mucous. It is a misleading thing to say that biofilms are something more than mucous. Do you know what is in mucous? Polysaccharides! A particular one called mucin. You want other polysaccharides? Glycogen (a polysaccharide of glucose), cellulose, starch and so on. Do you know what polysaccharides are made out of? Starch is your clue. Yep, they're complex carbohydrates. What are carbohydrates? Hydrates of carbon. And yep, those are carbon with water. By the way, hydrates of carbon are saccharides. Do you know what a polymer is? It's a large complex molecule characterised by repeating structure. Polymer literally means poly = many, meros = parts. Plastic is a polymer, so is shellac, amber, DNA, cellulose, proteins and many other " unrelated " things. Therefore: Saying something is a polymer is not immediately useful. Saying something is a polysaccharide, likewise, is also fairly vague and not indicative of anything. So just to muck things up even more, do you know that mucin, the polysaccharide, is a protein? Yep, it is. And did you know that proteins are linear polymers? Yep, they are. Did you think that peptides and proteins were two different things? Think again! Peptides are short polymers! Proteins, peptides and polypeptides are ambiguous in meaning and overlap lots, depending which naming convention one uses! This is just so we don't get carried away with attaching too great a significance to the phrase " ...biofilms is called a polymer and contains polysaccharides. " Bread is too, and so is, well, mucous. So let's summarise: biofilms are a type of mucous. Biofilms are NOT mucin. Why? Because mucin is the mucous that is secreted by humans. Bacteria, on the other hand, secrete their own TYPE of mucous. There many types of bacteria secreting varieties of mucous. Interesting aside - people without spleens have a particular weakness to bacteria that secrete polysaccharides (mucous). Funny, because in CM a weak spleen leads to excess mucous, and we know that diseases that involve a lot of mucous are stubborn and dangerous. The next point is to please stop with the scare tactics, Sarah. Bacteria have been around so long, and can survive in such harsh extremes BECAUSE they are so versatile and adaptable AND have always been able to produce biofilms! Ok, they're producing more these days? Possible. I would too if some jerk was always throwing antibiotics at me. As far as your story with the lid and whatever, ok, possible, but we don't know the peculiarities of the case. Remember, some bacteria eat polysaccharides, like PLASTIC. It is not unusual! Is your lid of the biodegradable kind? Because if it is, then it is even easier for bacteria to eat, I mean that's why it's SO biodegradable! Most people on the list have probably heard of the corn plastic styrofoam, right? Yeah, those are made out of lactic acid from fermenting corn sugar...which is then bound into long chains, forming a POLYMER!! As far as the problem in nursing homes and hospitals, one is that there is not enough staff to clean the feces off the floor, another is that air circulates the entire building infecting everyone with a weakened immune system which is, you guessed it, most of those poor people. And third, yes, infections are treated with little subtlety, leading to reinfections which obviously lead to more treatment, which is like trying to win a baseball game in nine innings, but insisting on adding inning after inning and then yeah, the bacterias could win. 2/3. Ok 3/5. Ok 4/7! (...) nono, wait 46 out of 90. It's not a good strategy folks! EXPERIMENT TIME!!! Everyone, reach into your nose and pull out some mucin. Get a good wet one. Mmm, yuck. Smear it all over a dish. Let it sit on the counter for a bit, to back in its glory (and to dry). Throw it in the dishwasher when it's dry. Take it out of the dishwater when the machine is done. Voila! See that thin shiny, hard residue?? BIOFILM!!! Next: Artemisinin is not artemisia (Qinghaosu). It is one chemical extracted form the plant. I don't expect the single chemical will fare well over the long term against bacteria. However, HERBS do fare well over the long term with bacteria. Treating according to presenting signs and symptoms is also essential. Next: You have a good point about antibiotic use in livestock and so on. I am sorry that you have the sensitivity. Finally: You are obviously a resourceful person, and I am sorry to hear you could not afford to go to your CM practitioner anymore. Just please don't buy into hysteria. More often than not, that's just a poorly trained part of our mind trying to take us down a stressful road. In peace, Hugo baidanwu34 <baidanwu34 Chinese Traditional Medicine Friday, 13 June, 2008 3:11:17 PM [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: biofilms I believe the material holding together biofilms is called a polymer and contains polysaccharides. These may be both organic and inorganic in composition. Bacteria living in colonies and adhering to surfaces in the body are proving difficult to eradicate. The really scary thing is the fact that they may also adhere to non body surfaces such as plastic and metal. Many infections such as these are passed from patient to patient in hospitals by instruments which are sterilized but somehow these biofilms manage to survive. Calling biofilms mucus seems an over simplification of a serious and growing problem in hospitals and nursing homes. In fact even scientists discussing biofilms are having trouble defining them exactly. Something which happened to me while using the Raintree Nutrition mycoplasm protocol was really amazing although careless on my part. I used a cotton swab to clean out an area on my skin which looked like some kind of infection being forced out by the herbs. I set this swap down on a plastic lid I had for used swabs. For some reason I forgot to throw this last swab out into the plastic baggies I used to dispose of them. The next day this swab was glued to the plastic surface. Not only that there was a visible indentation in the plastic when I broke it loose. So I do believe there is a bit more going on than simple mucus holding together bacteria in such infections. It could be related to heavy metals and plastics which are ubiquitous in the environment and which doubtless build up a presence within the body, becoming mixed in with them to form part of the biofilm's polymers. Although there is no known resistance of bacteria to herbs the potential exists for any substance to eventually become so. Many herbalists fear that artemisinin (artemesia annua L) may become such an herb. So much is not known about what will happen when herbs are used as drugs in the Western sense, so it seems responsible and prudent for herbalists to suggest breaks from an herbal formula which is used for extended periods of time. I understand the Chinese medicine concepts of using herbs in formulas and tailoring such use to the individual and changes as they occur the body. It is the preferred way to use herbs. However many people do not have access to such extensive and prolonged treatment as in most cases such treatment is not covered by insurance or is even totally unavailable in their community. The reason I posted a South American herbal protocol which is used in a Western sense for a specific condition is that I found it helped me get out some of the infection I was combating. I tried it after extensive use of Chinese medicine which was done by a very good professional. I could no longer afford to do this and so have tried various herbal combinations to treat my own problem. Some with success and others with less success. Still at the time this is much less expensive for me. I am not saying this is the ideal way to treat a problem, but it is a more affordable one. This protocol has rid my body of a lot of the infection I had. I continue to work on it, sometimes using my limited knowledge of TCM patent herbs to help myself over the humps. So far I continue to improve. I believe much antibiotic resistance comes not just from overuse of them to treat illness, but also from the fact they are overused in agriculture for the raising of meat as well as in cows to increase milk production. In my own case I am very allergic to antibiotics but it is hard to avoid them in continuous trace amounts in many foods. I blame that more than I blame people for overuse of antibiotics, although I do believe that they should be reserved for emergency use and not used in simple illnesses. best, Sarah Chinese Traditional Medicine, Hugo Ramiro <subincor@.. .> wrote: > > Hi All; > " Biofilm " is the newest piece of jargon which describes a well-known but distasteful phenomena: phlegm, booger, mucous. Gosh ya think bacteria breed better inside a glob of phlegm. You don't say. > I also doubt that the bacteria become resistant to the herbs. Not only do bacteria do poorly against complex substances, but they do need time to build up resistance. Antibiotic resistance didn't happen overnight - it happened after decades of overuse by tens of millions of people. > I suspect that any claims of the bacteria developing resistance to the herbs is the glossing over of herb misapplication. As anyone with a CM background will know, a pathological processed must be " chased " through its differing changes and forms until it is finally resolved or expelled. This means no single herb or single formula to resolve complex problems. If your problem is very mild, then yes, that might work. Unfortunately those are getting rare in our modern age. > > Hugo > > > > baidanwu34 <baidanwu34@ ...> > Chinese Traditional Medicine > Wednesday, 11 June, 2008 8:58:40 AM > [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: biofilms > > > Many biofilms are the result of mycoplasma infections. I have used > the products from Raintree Nutrition for two months at a time to help > rid my body of mycoplasma infections. Here is a page which discusses > the mycoplasma protocol from this company. It happens to be a UK > page, but it lists the three formulas used as well as suggesting > how the herbs are to be used (amount per day). I found on yet another > site that the suggested length of time for use is two months and then > a break of a month or so is taken. If necessary another round may > used again. The break is suggested because these infections can get > used to the herbs and build up resistance to them. It is such a shame > that the main company which sells these herbs is unable to put the > protocol for using them on their site. Some of the product names have > changed: the is Amazon F-Gal is now Amazon A-F, and the immume product > Imu-1 is called Immune Support. Myco+ name is the same. I used the > liquid myco+ (rather than the capsules) as I felt it would be more > easily absorbed. > > Here is the page which discusses how to use the herbs in the > mycoplasma protocol: > > http://www.healing4 all.co.uk/ Rain_Forest_ Herbs/Mycoplasma s/mycoplasmas. html > > This is the Raintree Nutrition page where the herbs are sold (although > there are also other sites which sell their herbs): > > http://www.rain- tree.com/ rtmprod.htm > > Here is a great article from the Raintree Nutrition site about > mycoplasma infections: > > http://rain- tree.com/ baseman-tully- article.htm > > best, Sarah > > Chinese Traditional Medicine, Paul Harmsen <paulh01@ > wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > > > What tcm herbs are useful at treating spirochetal and fungi inside > the body and one the skin? > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 Hey Jeff, I have used a chinese formula containing coptis and this seems to help. This is not your ordinary parasite that I am dealing with either. I just included some chinese lyme herbs to my regimine too. Polygonum cuspitidium (knotweed) and red root to clear out my lymph system. I really this this disease is more like lyme disease and its coinfections plus mycoplasma. Also any oppurtunistic infections like giardia or amoeba's. That would created the abdominal distress. I find it amazing that chinese herbs work so much better then western antibiotics in treating this probably because its lyme in disguise, with an aweful parasite that creates these filaments. Paul Chinese Traditional Medicine , Jeff Smoley <yuliqigong wrote: > > Hello Paul, > > Have your tried berberine? Colloidal silver topically (NOT internally)? > Aloe and Coconut oil would not have much effect on parasites. > To boost your immune system try Qigong. The Guo Lin family Qigong would > be the one I would start with. You can get the forms and practices from > my web sites: www.yuliqigong.com or www.JadePowerQigong.com > > Jeff > > > paulh01 wrote: > > > > > > This is the treatment that I have followed. Aloe vera juice, twice a > > day. Coconut oil. Chinese herbals for chronic bacterial infection, > > Forsythia formula 18. Acidopholis 2 pills twice a day. Zithromax > > 125mg Monday wed, friday. And minocycline, flagyl pulses for a high > > chlyimidia pneumonia titler. > > > > What do you think be done to increase my immune system some more. > > > > > -- > Jeff Smoley LMT MA 52162 > www.JadePowerQigong.com > www.yuliqigong.com > www.SomaticSA.com > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 Nature has had to deal with disease and parasites long before man tried to fight them with artificial means. Many antibiotics are plant or fungi based. Chinese pharmacology can be just as toxic as western drugs. That is why I suggest you start a Qigong routine. This will boost your immune system without putting anything in or on you body. Jeff paulh01 wrote: > > Hey Jeff, > > I have used a chinese formula containing coptis and this seems to > help. This is not your ordinary parasite that I am dealing with > either. I just included some chinese lyme herbs to my regimine too. > Polygonum cuspitidium (knotweed) and red root to clear out my lymph > system. I really this this disease is more like lyme disease and its > coinfections plus mycoplasma. Also any oppurtunistic infections like > giardia or amoeba's. That would created the abdominal distress. > > I find it amazing that chinese herbs work so much better then western > antibiotics in treating this probably because its lyme in disguise, > with an aweful parasite that creates these filaments. > > Paul > > Jeff Smoley LMT MA 52162 www.JadePowerQigong.com www.yuliqigong.com www.SomaticSA.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Hugo, I hardly feel stating how I look at biofilms is buying into hysteria or creating hysteria. Dental plaque is one of the more commonly known biofilms and I think pointing this out here is hardly a hysterical statement. I am well aware that what is happening to me is exacerbated by a dampness problem in the body which usually involves the spleen. And of course you are right I do not know exactly what happened with the cotton swab and the lid, except I am pretty sure the lid was not something made out of corn starch as it was a sturdy, hard jar lid. Observations about what has happened is not hysterical either, but seem to be as you observe it. I happen to disagree with that assessment. The original poster was discussing a problem which has a lot of biofilm skin problems involved with it (morgellons). Biofilms are extremely hard to treat as antibiotics simply cannot reach the bacteria or mycoplasmas which are protected by their substrates. Biofilms are more than just chains of bacteria or mycoplasmas. The original poster asked about biofilm herbs in TCM and one poster answered pau d'arco. I then posted about some additional South American herbs I found had helped me with a difficult to treat skin infection. Al Stone gave a page with some helpful TCM formulas. Do you have any additional insights which might help the original poster? Unless you have seen goo stick to your skin, spread to create new sore places on your skin and still think it is just an ordinary skin infection I do not think it is fair to state that biofilms are " the latest jargon. " Still I feel that scientists are not really sure what a biofilm is and although they would like to have a common definition there does not seem to be one: http://www.erc.montana.edu/Res-Lib99-sw/pubs/Abstracts/1997/97029.html Center for Biofilm Engineering Abstract: " Consensus Model of Biofilm Structure " 97-029 Biofilms have been defined in various ways by various researchers. The definition is usually structured to be all inclusive of the many environments that biofilms are found and disciplines that the subject covers. Characklis and Marshall (1990) define a biofilm as consisting of " cells immobilized at a substratum and frequently embedded in an organic polymer matrix of microbial origin " . A broader definition is supplied by Costerton et al. (1995) who defined biofilms as " matrix-enclosed bacterial populations adherent to each other and/or to surfaces or interfaces " . It might be easiest to define biofilms in terms of what they are not - single cells homogeneously dispersed in fluid, the well mixed batch culture of which much of contemporary microbiology is based. Structural organisation is a characteristic feature of biofilms which distinguishes biofilm cultures from conventional suspended cultures, with or without an association with an interface. Biofilm structure is a recurrent topic of discussion among biofilm researchers generally and has been featured in a number of presentations at the first two British Biofilm Club Gregynog meetings. Much discussion time has been spent in search of a " universal " conceptual biofilm model describing biofilm structure (Handley 1995). The existence of such a model is appealing but given the enormous diversity of biofilms is it possible to characterise all biofilms with a single conceptual model? And if we do agree on a working model how useful will such a model be? Possibly we should not restrict a biofilm model to certain structural constraints but instead look for common features or basic building blocks of biofilms which could be readily incorporated into different structural models in a modular fashion. Stoodley, P., J.D. Boyle, I. Dodds, and H.M. Lapping-Scott, " Consensus Model of Biofilm Structure, " In: Biofilms: Community Interactions and Control, pp. 1-9. J.W.T. Wimpenny, J.W.T., P.S. Handley, P. Gilbert, H.M. Lappin-Scott, and M. Jones (eds), BioLine, Cardiff, UK (1997). " Somehow you seem to think the only organisms found in biofilms are bacteria and yet mycoplasmas are often the cause of biofilm formation and are much harder to detect as there is no cell wall. Although not all mycoplasmas create biofilms many of them do. Biofilms are a complex problem and probably are also inadequately understood in Western medicine to this day. http://mic.sgmjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/152/4/913 " Biofilm formation by mycoplasma species and its role in environmental persistence and survival Laura McAuliffe1, Richard J. Ellis2, Katie Miles1, Roger D. Ayling1 and Robin A. J. Nicholas1 1 Mycoplasma Group, Department of Statutory and Exotic Bacterial Diseases, Veterinary Laboratories Agency (Weybridge), Woodham Lane, Addlestone, Surrey KT15 3NB, UK 2 NERC Centre for Population Biology, Imperial College London, Silwood Park Campus, Ascot, Berks SL5 7PY, UK Correspondence Laura McAuliffe l.mcauliffe Although mycoplasmas possess a very limited genome, little is known about their virulence mechanisms and methods of persistence in the host. Examination of a wide range of mycoplasma species found considerable variation in their ability to form a biofilm. Mycoplasma putrefaciens, M. cottewii, M. yeatsii, M. agalactiae and M. bovis produced prolific biofilms. Conversely, the highly pathogenic mycoplasma and causative agent of contagious bovine pleuropneumonia, Mycoplasma mycoides subsp. mycoides SC, was unable to produce a biofilm. Biofilms were found to be considerably more resistant to stress, including heat and desiccation, than planktonic cells. A link between the biofilm phenotype and genotype as determined by molecular typing was found for M. bovis. Analysis of biofilms using fluorescent staining combined with confocal microscopy demonstrated that mycoplasma biofilms formed a highly differentiated structure with stacks and channels. Biofilm formation may indicate that mycoplasmas are capable of surviving in the environment. " According to this next reference mycoplasmas seem to be organisms somewhere between bacteria and viruses: http://www.roadback.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/education.display/display_id/93.htm\ l " Mycoplasma is the name given to a unique group of microorganisms that fall in the category between the bacteria and viruses. In fact, it is still debated whether the larger and more complicated bacteria evolved from the prehistoric mycoplasma (the smallest free-living organism) or whether they evolved from the viruses. The primary differences are that bacteria have a solid cell-wall structure (that is sensitive to penicillin) and they can be relatively easily grown in culture media. Mycoplasmas, on the other hand, do not have a cell wall and like the tiniest jellyfish with a pliable membrane, can take on many different shapes, making them difficult to identify even under a high powered electron microscope. Their accepted name was chosen because some strains were observed to have a mycelated fungi-like structure (as Mycology, the study of fungi) with a flowering plasma like structure, hence mycoplasma. The first strains were isolated in 1898 at the Pasteur Institute and for 60 years they were called pleuro-pneumonia-like organisms (PPLOs) having been isolated from cattle with arthritis and pleuro-pneumonia. The first human strain was isolated in 1932 from an abscess in a female patient. The first reported isolation of a mycoplasma from a rheumatoid patient was made in 1939 by Drs. Swift and Brown. Newer techniques have been able to identify many different strains that are essentially species specific; avian (chicken and turkeys), rodents (mice and rats), feline, canine, porcine, goats, sheep, elephants, etc. In particular, the non human primates (great apes) were found to be infected with the human mycoplasma strains, which made the arthritic gorillas the ideal animal model for the study of humans. Of particular support for the cause of rheumatoid arthritis are the many reports of mycoplasmas causing arthritis in most of all domestic animals, including the experimental laboratory mice and rat models. When tetracycline antibiotics became available in 1947, they, and not pencillins, were found to inhibit mycoplasma growth and also control animal arthritis. Mycoplasmas, unlike viruses, can grow in tissue fluids (blood, joint, heart, chest, and spinal fluids) and can grow in living tissue cell structures without killing the cells- as some viruses and bacteria do. Mycoplasmas are frequently isolated from the oral or genito-urinary tracts of normal population and are found to infect females four times more often than males, which just happens to be the same incident rate in rheumatoid arthritis and other related disorders. Mycoplasmas can attach to specific cells without killing the cells and thus their infection process can go undetected. No symptoms suggests no disease. In some people the attachment of mycoplasmas to the susceptible cell membranes acts like a living thorn, a persistent foreign substance, causing the host's immune defense mechanism to wage war. " So according to the above excerpt it seems that at least some mycoplasma infections existed in a pre-antibiotic era (discovered in 1898), so I don't think that all mycoplama infections and their biofilms are the result of the overuse of antibiotics (do you?) but already existed before antibiotics were commonly used. I am not sure why you think that I believe this is a new phenomenon which has magically appeared in the modern age. My main thought is that these types of infections are extremely hard to treat and are quite commonly found in people, causing a lot of hidden illness. BTW way, yes, I do know that polymer means a chain. And I am aware of some of the polysaccarides as starch etc. And yes, artemisinin is not the whole herb, but as far as I know the whole herb cinchona from which synthetic quinine derivatives are made is now an herb whose effectiveness as a whole herb to treat malaria is being hotly debated: http://www.herbs2000.com/herbs/herbs_cinchona.htm " Quinine from cinchona extracts became the only medication for malaria. However, the world was dependent on cinchona trees for the supply of quinine and this led to a race for synthesizing quinine from other sources. American chemists succeeded in synthesizing quinine in the year 1944, during WW2 when supplies of natural quinine were mostly out of reach. Following the success of synthetic quinine, different quinine based medications like the chloroquine and primaquine were subsequently used in treating malaria - these synthesized compounds were safer and more potent than the natural extracts of the bark. The effectiveness of cinchona bark and quinine itself in the treatment of malaria has been questioned by recent evidence that show the existence of certain resistant sub-species of the malaria causing pathogens. The discovery of these resistant variants of the parasite has sparked much debate about the real effectiveness of the whole plant over the synthetic variety. " So there are some others who also question the possibility that bacteria and/or mycoplasmas could develop the same resistance to whole herbs as drugs are exhibiting, especially if used often enough by a large group of people for the same disease. Resistance to whole single herbs may not have happened yet in any verifiable way, but I believe it is possible. Another reality (as stated above) is that when this particular remedy (cinchona and its natural extract quinine) for malaria became known to Europeans and the rest of the world the cinchona tree nearly became extinct, something which has happened to other herbs and some are extinct as may be read about here (a plant used as birth control, extinct by Pliny's time): http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=851 This extinction or near extinction of plants more than anything else is what led researchers to synthesize drugs from the known active ingredients in plants, such as making synthetic quinine from the active ingredient found in natural quinine extract. No doubt two large world wars (which would cut off supplies of herbs from country to country) hastened this sort of research. Not that medication is the total anwer to illness nor is this to say I like drugs. Hardly, given that I believe the use of antibotics by doctors on me as a child created many of the dampness problems and severe drug allergies with which I still deal years later. So I am not defending the wholesale use of drugs, but with the population of the world today so much larger than it was when the cinchona tree was nearly hunted into extinction it does give me enough pause to think that in some circumstances drugs will have to be the treatment of choice, mainly because that may be the only medication available in sufficient amounts. Some natural herbals such as those found in trees may not be grown quickly enough to supply an extremely large population's need nor may there be enough arable land to grow it or the right conditions under which it will grow (hot, cold, rain forest, mountains etc). There is also the possibilty that large amounts of herbs could be lost to natural disasters such as droughts or floods or as in China be grown next to rivers which are heavily polluted with heavy metals. So doubtless drugs will be needed in the future, although hopefully folks will awaken to the possibility of using food and herbs to regain health, assuming they can find enough which has been untainted by antibiotics or GMO manipulations or tainted by heavy metals or other pollution. best, Sarah Chinese Traditional Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Dear Sarah and All; > > Phlegm and mucous are not innocuous simply because we all have mucous. It is a misleading thing to say that biofilms are something more than mucous. Do you know what is in mucous? Polysaccharides! A particular one called mucin. You want other polysaccharides? Glycogen (a polysaccharide of glucose), cellulose, starch and so on. > Do you know what polysaccharides are made out of? Starch is your clue. Yep, they're complex carbohydrates. What are carbohydrates? Hydrates of carbon. And yep, those are carbon with water. By the way, hydrates of carbon are saccharides. > Do you know what a polymer is? It's a large complex molecule characterised by repeating structure. Polymer literally means poly = many, meros = parts. Plastic is a polymer, so is shellac, amber, DNA, cellulose, proteins and many other " unrelated " things. > Therefore: > Saying something is a polymer is not immediately useful. Saying something is a polysaccharide, likewise, is also fairly vague and not indicative of anything. > So just to muck things up even more, do you know that mucin, the polysaccharide, is a protein? Yep, it is. And did you know that proteins are linear polymers? Yep, they are. Did you think that peptides and proteins were two different things? Think again! Peptides are short polymers! Proteins, peptides and polypeptides are ambiguous in meaning and overlap lots, depending which naming convention one uses! > This is just so we don't get carried away with attaching too great a significance to the phrase " ...biofilms is called a polymer and contains polysaccharides. " Bread is too, and so is, well, mucous. > > So let's summarise: biofilms are a type of mucous. Biofilms are NOT mucin. Why? Because mucin is the mucous that is secreted by humans. Bacteria, on the other hand, secrete their own TYPE of mucous. There many types of bacteria secreting varieties of mucous. > > Interesting aside - people without spleens have a particular weakness to bacteria that secrete polysaccharides (mucous). Funny, because in CM a weak spleen leads to excess mucous, and we know that diseases that involve a lot of mucous are stubborn and dangerous. > > The next point is to please stop with the scare tactics, Sarah. Bacteria have been around so long, and can survive in such harsh extremes BECAUSE they are so versatile and adaptable AND have always been able to produce biofilms! Ok, they're producing more these days? Possible. I would too if some jerk was always throwing antibiotics at me. > > As far as your story with the lid and whatever, ok, possible, but we don't know the peculiarities of the case. Remember, some bacteria eat polysaccharides, like PLASTIC. It is not unusual! Is your lid of the biodegradable kind? Because if it is, then it is even easier for bacteria to eat, I mean that's why it's SO biodegradable! Most people on the list have probably heard of the corn plastic styrofoam, right? Yeah, those are made out of lactic acid from fermenting corn sugar...which is then bound into long chains, forming a POLYMER!! > > As far as the problem in nursing homes and hospitals, one is that there is not enough staff to clean the feces off the floor, another is that air circulates the entire building infecting everyone with a weakened immune system which is, you guessed it, most of those poor people. And third, yes, infections are treated with little subtlety, leading to reinfections which obviously lead to more treatment, which is like trying to win a baseball game in nine innings, but insisting on adding inning after inning and then yeah, the bacterias could win. 2/3. Ok 3/5. Ok 4/7! (...) nono, wait 46 out of 90. It's not a good strategy folks! > > EXPERIMENT TIME!!! > > Everyone, reach into your nose and pull out some mucin. Get a good wet one. Mmm, yuck. Smear it all over a dish. Let it sit on the counter for a bit, to back in its glory (and to dry). Throw it in the dishwasher when it's dry. Take it out of the dishwater when the machine is done. Voila! See that thin shiny, hard residue?? BIOFILM!!! > > Next: > > Artemisinin is not artemisia (Qinghaosu). It is one chemical extracted form the plant. I don't expect the single chemical will fare well over the long term against bacteria. However, HERBS do fare well over the long term with bacteria. Treating according to presenting signs and symptoms is also essential. > > Next: > > You have a good point about antibiotic use in livestock and so on. I am sorry that you have the sensitivity. > > Finally: > > You are obviously a resourceful person, and I am sorry to hear you could not afford to go to your CM practitioner anymore. Just please don't buy into hysteria. More often than not, that's just a poorly trained part of our mind trying to take us down a stressful road. > > In peace, > Hugo > > > > baidanwu34 <baidanwu34 > Chinese Traditional Medicine > Friday, 13 June, 2008 3:11:17 PM > [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: biofilms > > > I believe the material holding together biofilms is called a polymer > and contains polysaccharides. These may be both organic and inorganic > in composition. Bacteria living in colonies and adhering to surfaces > in the body are proving difficult to eradicate. The really scary > thing is the fact that they may also adhere to non body surfaces such > as plastic and metal. Many infections such as these are passed from > patient to patient in hospitals by instruments which are sterilized > but somehow these biofilms manage to survive. Calling biofilms mucus > seems an over simplification of a serious and growing problem in > hospitals and nursing homes. In fact even scientists discussing > biofilms are having trouble defining them exactly. > > Something which happened to me while using the Raintree Nutrition > mycoplasm protocol was really amazing although careless on my part. I > used a cotton swab to clean out an area on my skin which looked like > some kind of infection being forced out by the herbs. I set this swap > down on a plastic lid I had for used swabs. For some reason I forgot > to throw this last swab out into the plastic baggies I used to dispose > of them. The next day this swab was glued to the plastic surface. Not > only that there was a visible indentation in the plastic when I broke > it loose. So I do believe there is a bit more going on than simple > mucus holding together bacteria in such infections. It could be > related to heavy metals and plastics which are ubiquitous in the > environment and which doubtless build up a presence within the body, > becoming mixed in with them to form part of the biofilm's polymers. > > Although there is no known resistance of bacteria to herbs the > potential exists for any substance to eventually become so. Many > herbalists fear that artemisinin (artemesia annua L) may become such > an herb. So much is not known about what will happen when herbs are > used as drugs in the Western sense, so it seems responsible and > prudent for herbalists to suggest breaks from an herbal formula which > is used for extended periods of time. I understand the Chinese > medicine concepts of using herbs in formulas and tailoring such use to > the individual and changes as they occur the body. It is the preferred > way to use herbs. However many people do not have access to such > extensive and prolonged treatment as in most cases such treatment is > not covered by insurance or is even totally unavailable in their > community. > > The reason I posted a South American herbal protocol which is used in > a Western sense for a specific condition is that I found it helped me > get out some of the infection I was combating. I tried it after > extensive use of Chinese medicine which was done by a > very good professional. I could no longer afford to do this > and so have tried various herbal combinations to treat my own problem. > Some with success and others with less success. Still at the time > this is much less expensive for me. I am not saying this is the ideal > way to treat a problem, but it is a more affordable one. This > protocol has rid my body of a lot of the infection I had. I continue > to work on it, sometimes using my limited knowledge of TCM patent > herbs to help myself over the humps. So far I continue to improve. > > I believe much antibiotic resistance comes not just from overuse of > them to treat illness, but also from the fact they are overused in > agriculture for the raising of meat as well as in cows to increase > milk production. In my own case I am very allergic to antibiotics but > it is hard to avoid them in continuous trace amounts in many foods. I > blame that more than I blame people for overuse of antibiotics, > although I do believe that they should be reserved for emergency use > and not used in simple illnesses. > > best, Sarah > > Chinese Traditional Medicine, Hugo Ramiro <subincor@ .> wrote: > > > > Hi All; > > " Biofilm " is the newest piece of jargon which describes a > well-known but distasteful phenomena: phlegm, booger, mucous. Gosh ya > think bacteria breed better inside a glob of phlegm. You don't say. > > I also doubt that the bacteria become resistant to the herbs. Not > only do bacteria do poorly against complex substances, but they do > need time to build up resistance. Antibiotic resistance didn't happen > overnight - it happened after decades of overuse by tens of millions > of people. > > I suspect that any claims of the bacteria developing resistance to > the herbs is the glossing over of herb misapplication. As anyone with > a CM background will know, a pathological processed must be " chased " > through its differing changes and forms until it is finally resolved > or expelled. This means no single herb or single formula to resolve > complex problems. If your problem is very mild, then yes, that might > work. Unfortunately those are getting rare in our modern age. > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > baidanwu34 <baidanwu34@ ...> > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > > Wednesday, 11 June, 2008 8:58:40 AM > > [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: biofilms > > > > > > Many biofilms are the result of mycoplasma infections. I have used > > the products from Raintree Nutrition for two months at a time to help > > rid my body of mycoplasma infections. Here is a page which discusses > > the mycoplasma protocol from this company. It happens to be a UK > > page, but it lists the three formulas used as well as suggesting > > how the herbs are to be used (amount per day). I found on yet another > > site that the suggested length of time for use is two months and then > > a break of a month or so is taken. If necessary another round may > > used again. The break is suggested because these infections can get > > used to the herbs and build up resistance to them. It is such a shame > > that the main company which sells these herbs is unable to put the > > protocol for using them on their site. Some of the product names have > > changed: the is Amazon F-Gal is now Amazon A-F, and the immume product > > Imu-1 is called Immune Support. Myco+ name is the same. I used the > > liquid myco+ (rather than the capsules) as I felt it would be more > > easily absorbed. > > > > Here is the page which discusses how to use the herbs in the > > mycoplasma protocol: > > > > http://www.healing4 all.co.uk/ Rain_Forest_ Herbs/Mycoplasma > s/mycoplasmas. html > > > > This is the Raintree Nutrition page where the herbs are sold (although > > there are also other sites which sell their herbs): > > > > http://www.rain- tree.com/ rtmprod.htm > > > > Here is a great article from the Raintree Nutrition site about > > mycoplasma infections: > > > > http://rain- tree.com/ baseman-tully- article.htm > > > > best, Sarah > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine, Paul Harmsen <paulh01@ > wrote: > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > What tcm herbs are useful at treating spirochetal and fungi inside > > the body and one the skin? > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Hi Sara and All, I feel that I was to the point and succinct. " organic polymer matrix of microbial origin " (as you quote below)= phlegm produced by bacteria (or other organisms). Organisms are (almost?) all able to produce films or coverings. I believe viruses are not able to. Simply throwing more and more data at something doesn't make one right. If you are arguing for confusion and mystery, I don't buy it for these " biofilms " . Again, I took particular exception to the statement that biofilms were (shock!) polysaccharides and polymers - which is a true statement to be made of an absolutely humongous number of things. Morgellon's, interestingly, as one person speculated, may have more to do with gene drift and the subsequent synthesis of cellulose by human beings. I hope you can take my very pointed comments and use them, and not extrapolate too far on what I /might/ mean. To recap: 1. If something has polysaccharides and is a polymer, it leaves us pretty much nowhere since we could be talking about anything. 2. Biofilms are mucous, as has been stated by any number of scientists. They are simply mystified that bacteria (and other organisms) use them to their advantage so intelligently. Obviously antibiotics can't get through thick goo. 3. Biofilms are the latest jargon, just like brain plaques for alzheimers were revolutionary concepts in their time. Not that they were something new, merely that they were newly observed. In peace, Hugo baidanwu34 <baidanwu34 Chinese Traditional Medicine Wednesday, 18 June, 2008 5:09:13 PM [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: biofilms Hugo, I hardly feel stating how I look at biofilms is buying into hysteria or creating hysteria. Dental plaque is one of the more commonly known biofilms and I think pointing this out here is hardly a hysterical statement. I am well aware that what is happening to me is exacerbated by a dampness problem in the body which usually involves the spleen. And of course you are right I do not know exactly what happened with the cotton swab and the lid, except I am pretty sure the lid was not something made out of corn starch as it was a sturdy, hard jar lid. Observations about what has happened is not hysterical either, but seem to be as you observe it. I happen to disagree with that assessment. The original poster was discussing a problem which has a lot of biofilm skin problems involved with it (morgellons) . Biofilms are extremely hard to treat as antibiotics simply cannot reach the bacteria or mycoplasmas which are protected by their substrates. Biofilms are more than just chains of bacteria or mycoplasmas. The original poster asked about biofilm herbs in TCM and one poster answered pau d'arco. I then posted about some additional South American herbs I found had helped me with a difficult to treat skin infection. Al Stone gave a page with some helpful TCM formulas. Do you have any additional insights which might help the original poster? Unless you have seen goo stick to your skin, spread to create new sore places on your skin and still think it is just an ordinary skin infection I do not think it is fair to state that biofilms are " the latest jargon. " Still I feel that scientists are not really sure what a biofilm is and although they would like to have a common definition there does not seem to be one: http://www.erc. montana.edu/ Res-Lib99- sw/pubs/Abstract s/1997/97029. html Center for Biofilm Engineering Abstract: " Consensus Model of Biofilm Structure " 97-029 Biofilms have been defined in various ways by various researchers. The definition is usually structured to be all inclusive of the many environments that biofilms are found and disciplines that the subject covers. Characklis and Marshall (1990) define a biofilm as consisting of " cells immobilized at a substratum and frequently embedded in an organic polymer matrix of microbial origin " . A broader definition is supplied by Costerton et al. (1995) who defined biofilms as " matrix-enclosed bacterial populations adherent to each other and/or to surfaces or interfaces " . It might be easiest to define biofilms in terms of what they are not - single cells homogeneously dispersed in fluid, the well mixed batch culture of which much of contemporary microbiology is based. Structural organisation is a characteristic feature of biofilms which distinguishes biofilm cultures from conventional suspended cultures, with or without an association with an interface. Biofilm structure is a recurrent topic of discussion among biofilm researchers generally and has been featured in a number of presentations at the first two British Biofilm Club Gregynog meetings. Much discussion time has been spent in search of a " universal " conceptual biofilm model describing biofilm structure (Handley 1995). The existence of such a model is appealing but given the enormous diversity of biofilms is it possible to characterise all biofilms with a single conceptual model? And if we do agree on a working model how useful will such a model be? Possibly we should not restrict a biofilm model to certain structural constraints but instead look for common features or basic building blocks of biofilms which could be readily incorporated into different structural models in a modular fashion. Stoodley, P., J.D. Boyle, I. Dodds, and H.M. Lapping-Scott, " Consensus Model of Biofilm Structure, " In: Biofilms: Community Interactions and Control, pp. 1-9. J.W.T. Wimpenny, J.W.T., P.S. Handley, P. Gilbert, H.M. Lappin-Scott, and M. Jones (eds), BioLine, Cardiff, UK (1997). " Somehow you seem to think the only organisms found in biofilms are bacteria and yet mycoplasmas are often the cause of biofilm formation and are much harder to detect as there is no cell wall. Although not all mycoplasmas create biofilms many of them do. Biofilms are a complex problem and probably are also inadequately understood in Western medicine to this day. http://mic.sgmjourn als.org/cgi/ content/abstract /152/4/913 " Biofilm formation by mycoplasma species and its role in environmental persistence and survival Laura McAuliffe1, Richard J. Ellis2, Katie Miles1, Roger D. Ayling1 and Robin A. J. Nicholas1 1 Mycoplasma Group, Department of Statutory and Exotic Bacterial Diseases, Veterinary Laboratories Agency (Weybridge), Woodham Lane, Addlestone, Surrey KT15 3NB, UK 2 NERC Centre for Population Biology, Imperial College London, Silwood Park Campus, Ascot, Berks SL5 7PY, UK Correspondence Laura McAuliffe l.mcauliffe@ vla.defra. gsi.gov.uk Although mycoplasmas possess a very limited genome, little is known about their virulence mechanisms and methods of persistence in the host. Examination of a wide range of mycoplasma species found considerable variation in their ability to form a biofilm. Mycoplasma putrefaciens, M. cottewii, M. yeatsii, M. agalactiae and M. bovis produced prolific biofilms. Conversely, the highly pathogenic mycoplasma and causative agent of contagious bovine pleuropneumonia, Mycoplasma mycoides subsp. mycoides SC, was unable to produce a biofilm. Biofilms were found to be considerably more resistant to stress, including heat and desiccation, than planktonic cells. A link between the biofilm phenotype and genotype as determined by molecular typing was found for M. bovis. Analysis of biofilms using fluorescent staining combined with confocal microscopy demonstrated that mycoplasma biofilms formed a highly differentiated structure with stacks and channels. Biofilm formation may indicate that mycoplasmas are capable of surviving in the environment. " According to this next reference mycoplasmas seem to be organisms somewhere between bacteria and viruses: http://www.roadback .org/index. cfm/fuseaction/ education. display/display_ id/93.html " Mycoplasma is the name given to a unique group of microorganisms that fall in the category between the bacteria and viruses. In fact, it is still debated whether the larger and more complicated bacteria evolved from the prehistoric mycoplasma (the smallest free-living organism) or whether they evolved from the viruses. The primary differences are that bacteria have a solid cell-wall structure (that is sensitive to penicillin) and they can be relatively easily grown in culture media. Mycoplasmas, on the other hand, do not have a cell wall and like the tiniest jellyfish with a pliable membrane, can take on many different shapes, making them difficult to identify even under a high powered electron microscope. Their accepted name was chosen because some strains were observed to have a mycelated fungi-like structure (as Mycology, the study of fungi) with a flowering plasma like structure, hence mycoplasma. The first strains were isolated in 1898 at the Pasteur Institute and for 60 years they were called pleuro-pneumonia- like organisms (PPLOs) having been isolated from cattle with arthritis and pleuro-pneumonia. The first human strain was isolated in 1932 from an abscess in a female patient. The first reported isolation of a mycoplasma from a rheumatoid patient was made in 1939 by Drs. Swift and Brown. Newer techniques have been able to identify many different strains that are essentially species specific; avian (chicken and turkeys), rodents (mice and rats), feline, canine, porcine, goats, sheep, elephants, etc. In particular, the non human primates (great apes) were found to be infected with the human mycoplasma strains, which made the arthritic gorillas the ideal animal model for the study of humans. Of particular support for the cause of rheumatoid arthritis are the many reports of mycoplasmas causing arthritis in most of all domestic animals, including the experimental laboratory mice and rat models. When tetracycline antibiotics became available in 1947, they, and not pencillins, were found to inhibit mycoplasma growth and also control animal arthritis. Mycoplasmas, unlike viruses, can grow in tissue fluids (blood, joint, heart, chest, and spinal fluids) and can grow in living tissue cell structures without killing the cells- as some viruses and bacteria do. Mycoplasmas are frequently isolated from the oral or genito-urinary tracts of normal population and are found to infect females four times more often than males, which just happens to be the same incident rate in rheumatoid arthritis and other related disorders. Mycoplasmas can attach to specific cells without killing the cells and thus their infection process can go undetected. No symptoms suggests no disease. In some people the attachment of mycoplasmas to the susceptible cell membranes acts like a living thorn, a persistent foreign substance, causing the host's immune defense mechanism to wage war. " So according to the above excerpt it seems that at least some mycoplasma infections existed in a pre-antibiotic era (discovered in 1898), so I don't think that all mycoplama infections and their biofilms are the result of the overuse of antibiotics (do you?) but already existed before antibiotics were commonly used. I am not sure why you think that I believe this is a new phenomenon which has magically appeared in the modern age. My main thought is that these types of infections are extremely hard to treat and are quite commonly found in people, causing a lot of hidden illness. BTW way, yes, I do know that polymer means a chain. And I am aware of some of the polysaccarides as starch etc. And yes, artemisinin is not the whole herb, but as far as I know the whole herb cinchona from which synthetic quinine derivatives are made is now an herb whose effectiveness as a whole herb to treat malaria is being hotly debated: http://www.herbs200 0.com/herbs/ herbs_cinchona. htm " Quinine from cinchona extracts became the only medication for malaria. However, the world was dependent on cinchona trees for the supply of quinine and this led to a race for synthesizing quinine from other sources. American chemists succeeded in synthesizing quinine in the year 1944, during WW2 when supplies of natural quinine were mostly out of reach. Following the success of synthetic quinine, different quinine based medications like the chloroquine and primaquine were subsequently used in treating malaria - these synthesized compounds were safer and more potent than the natural extracts of the bark. The effectiveness of cinchona bark and quinine itself in the treatment of malaria has been questioned by recent evidence that show the existence of certain resistant sub-species of the malaria causing pathogens. The discovery of these resistant variants of the parasite has sparked much debate about the real effectiveness of the whole plant over the synthetic variety. " So there are some others who also question the possibility that bacteria and/or mycoplasmas could develop the same resistance to whole herbs as drugs are exhibiting, especially if used often enough by a large group of people for the same disease. Resistance to whole single herbs may not have happened yet in any verifiable way, but I believe it is possible. Another reality (as stated above) is that when this particular remedy (cinchona and its natural extract quinine) for malaria became known to Europeans and the rest of the world the cinchona tree nearly became extinct, something which has happened to other herbs and some are extinct as may be read about here (a plant used as birth control, extinct by Pliny's time): http://www.damninte resting.com/ ?p=851 This extinction or near extinction of plants more than anything else is what led researchers to synthesize drugs from the known active ingredients in plants, such as making synthetic quinine from the active ingredient found in natural quinine extract. No doubt two large world wars (which would cut off supplies of herbs from country to country) hastened this sort of research. Not that medication is the total anwer to illness nor is this to say I like drugs. Hardly, given that I believe the use of antibotics by doctors on me as a child created many of the dampness problems and severe drug allergies with which I still deal years later. So I am not defending the wholesale use of drugs, but with the population of the world today so much larger than it was when the cinchona tree was nearly hunted into extinction it does give me enough pause to think that in some circumstances drugs will have to be the treatment of choice, mainly because that may be the only medication available in sufficient amounts. Some natural herbals such as those found in trees may not be grown quickly enough to supply an extremely large population's need nor may there be enough arable land to grow it or the right conditions under which it will grow (hot, cold, rain forest, mountains etc). There is also the possibilty that large amounts of herbs could be lost to natural disasters such as droughts or floods or as in China be grown next to rivers which are heavily polluted with heavy metals. So doubtless drugs will be needed in the future, although hopefully folks will awaken to the possibility of using food and herbs to regain health, assuming they can find enough which has been untainted by antibiotics or GMO manipulations or tainted by heavy metals or other pollution. best, Sarah Chinese Traditional Medicine, Hugo Ramiro <subincor@.. .> wrote: > > Dear Sarah and All; > > Phlegm and mucous are not innocuous simply because we all have mucous. It is a misleading thing to say that biofilms are something more than mucous. Do you know what is in mucous? Polysaccharides! A particular one called mucin. You want other polysaccharides? Glycogen (a polysaccharide of glucose), cellulose, starch and so on. > Do you know what polysaccharides are made out of? Starch is your clue. Yep, they're complex carbohydrates. What are carbohydrates? Hydrates of carbon. And yep, those are carbon with water. By the way, hydrates of carbon are saccharides. > Do you know what a polymer is? It's a large complex molecule characterised by repeating structure. Polymer literally means poly = many, meros = parts. Plastic is a polymer, so is shellac, amber, DNA, cellulose, proteins and many other " unrelated " things. > Therefore: > Saying something is a polymer is not immediately useful. Saying something is a polysaccharide, likewise, is also fairly vague and not indicative of anything. > So just to muck things up even more, do you know that mucin, the polysaccharide, is a protein? Yep, it is. And did you know that proteins are linear polymers? Yep, they are. Did you think that peptides and proteins were two different things? Think again! Peptides are short polymers! Proteins, peptides and polypeptides are ambiguous in meaning and overlap lots, depending which naming convention one uses! > This is just so we don't get carried away with attaching too great a significance to the phrase " ...biofilms is called a polymer and contains polysaccharides. " Bread is too, and so is, well, mucous. > > So let's summarise: biofilms are a type of mucous. Biofilms are NOT mucin. Why? Because mucin is the mucous that is secreted by humans. Bacteria, on the other hand, secrete their own TYPE of mucous. There many types of bacteria secreting varieties of mucous. > > Interesting aside - people without spleens have a particular weakness to bacteria that secrete polysaccharides (mucous). Funny, because in CM a weak spleen leads to excess mucous, and we know that diseases that involve a lot of mucous are stubborn and dangerous. > > The next point is to please stop with the scare tactics, Sarah. Bacteria have been around so long, and can survive in such harsh extremes BECAUSE they are so versatile and adaptable AND have always been able to produce biofilms! Ok, they're producing more these days? Possible. I would too if some jerk was always throwing antibiotics at me. > > As far as your story with the lid and whatever, ok, possible, but we don't know the peculiarities of the case. Remember, some bacteria eat polysaccharides, like PLASTIC. It is not unusual! Is your lid of the biodegradable kind? Because if it is, then it is even easier for bacteria to eat, I mean that's why it's SO biodegradable! Most people on the list have probably heard of the corn plastic styrofoam, right? Yeah, those are made out of lactic acid from fermenting corn sugar...which is then bound into long chains, forming a POLYMER!! > > As far as the problem in nursing homes and hospitals, one is that there is not enough staff to clean the feces off the floor, another is that air circulates the entire building infecting everyone with a weakened immune system which is, you guessed it, most of those poor people. And third, yes, infections are treated with little subtlety, leading to reinfections which obviously lead to more treatment, which is like trying to win a baseball game in nine innings, but insisting on adding inning after inning and then yeah, the bacterias could win. 2/3. Ok 3/5. Ok 4/7! (...) nono, wait 46 out of 90. It's not a good strategy folks! > > EXPERIMENT TIME!!! > > Everyone, reach into your nose and pull out some mucin. Get a good wet one. Mmm, yuck. Smear it all over a dish. Let it sit on the counter for a bit, to back in its glory (and to dry). Throw it in the dishwasher when it's dry. Take it out of the dishwater when the machine is done. Voila! See that thin shiny, hard residue?? BIOFILM!!! > > Next: > > Artemisinin is not artemisia (Qinghaosu). It is one chemical extracted form the plant. I don't expect the single chemical will fare well over the long term against bacteria. However, HERBS do fare well over the long term with bacteria. Treating according to presenting signs and symptoms is also essential. > > Next: > > You have a good point about antibiotic use in livestock and so on. I am sorry that you have the sensitivity. > > Finally: > > You are obviously a resourceful person, and I am sorry to hear you could not afford to go to your CM practitioner anymore. Just please don't buy into hysteria. More often than not, that's just a poorly trained part of our mind trying to take us down a stressful road. > > In peace, > Hugo > > > > baidanwu34 <baidanwu34@ ...> > Chinese Traditional Medicine > Friday, 13 June, 2008 3:11:17 PM > [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: biofilms > > > I believe the material holding together biofilms is called a polymer > and contains polysaccharides. These may be both organic and inorganic > in composition. Bacteria living in colonies and adhering to surfaces > in the body are proving difficult to eradicate. The really scary > thing is the fact that they may also adhere to non body surfaces such > as plastic and metal. Many infections such as these are passed from > patient to patient in hospitals by instruments which are sterilized > but somehow these biofilms manage to survive. Calling biofilms mucus > seems an over simplification of a serious and growing problem in > hospitals and nursing homes. In fact even scientists discussing > biofilms are having trouble defining them exactly. > > Something which happened to me while using the Raintree Nutrition > mycoplasm protocol was really amazing although careless on my part. I > used a cotton swab to clean out an area on my skin which looked like > some kind of infection being forced out by the herbs. I set this swap > down on a plastic lid I had for used swabs. For some reason I forgot > to throw this last swab out into the plastic baggies I used to dispose > of them. The next day this swab was glued to the plastic surface. Not > only that there was a visible indentation in the plastic when I broke > it loose. So I do believe there is a bit more going on than simple > mucus holding together bacteria in such infections. It could be > related to heavy metals and plastics which are ubiquitous in the > environment and which doubtless build up a presence within the body, > becoming mixed in with them to form part of the biofilm's polymers. > > Although there is no known resistance of bacteria to herbs the > potential exists for any substance to eventually become so. Many > herbalists fear that artemisinin (artemesia annua L) may become such > an herb. So much is not known about what will happen when herbs are > used as drugs in the Western sense, so it seems responsible and > prudent for herbalists to suggest breaks from an herbal formula which > is used for extended periods of time. I understand the Chinese > medicine concepts of using herbs in formulas and tailoring such use to > the individual and changes as they occur the body. It is the preferred > way to use herbs. However many people do not have access to such > extensive and prolonged treatment as in most cases such treatment is > not covered by insurance or is even totally unavailable in their > community. > > The reason I posted a South American herbal protocol which is used in > a Western sense for a specific condition is that I found it helped me > get out some of the infection I was combating. I tried it after > extensive use of Chinese medicine which was done by a > very good professional. I could no longer afford to do this > and so have tried various herbal combinations to treat my own problem. > Some with success and others with less success. Still at the time > this is much less expensive for me. I am not saying this is the ideal > way to treat a problem, but it is a more affordable one. This > protocol has rid my body of a lot of the infection I had. I continue > to work on it, sometimes using my limited knowledge of TCM patent > herbs to help myself over the humps. So far I continue to improve. > > I believe much antibiotic resistance comes not just from overuse of > them to treat illness, but also from the fact they are overused in > agriculture for the raising of meat as well as in cows to increase > milk production. In my own case I am very allergic to antibiotics but > it is hard to avoid them in continuous trace amounts in many foods. I > blame that more than I blame people for overuse of antibiotics, > although I do believe that they should be reserved for emergency use > and not used in simple illnesses. > > best, Sarah > > Chinese Traditional Medicine, Hugo Ramiro <subincor@ .> wrote: > > > > Hi All; > > " Biofilm " is the newest piece of jargon which describes a > well-known but distasteful phenomena: phlegm, booger, mucous. Gosh ya > think bacteria breed better inside a glob of phlegm. You don't say. > > I also doubt that the bacteria become resistant to the herbs. Not > only do bacteria do poorly against complex substances, but they do > need time to build up resistance. Antibiotic resistance didn't happen > overnight - it happened after decades of overuse by tens of millions > of people. > > I suspect that any claims of the bacteria developing resistance to > the herbs is the glossing over of herb misapplication. As anyone with > a CM background will know, a pathological processed must be " chased " > through its differing changes and forms until it is finally resolved > or expelled. This means no single herb or single formula to resolve > complex problems. If your problem is very mild, then yes, that might > work. Unfortunately those are getting rare in our modern age. > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > baidanwu34 <baidanwu34@ ...> > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > > Wednesday, 11 June, 2008 8:58:40 AM > > [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: biofilms > > > > > > Many biofilms are the result of mycoplasma infections. I have used > > the products from Raintree Nutrition for two months at a time to help > > rid my body of mycoplasma infections. Here is a page which discusses > > the mycoplasma protocol from this company. It happens to be a UK > > page, but it lists the three formulas used as well as suggesting > > how the herbs are to be used (amount per day). I found on yet another > > site that the suggested length of time for use is two months and then > > a break of a month or so is taken. If necessary another round may > > used again. The break is suggested because these infections can get > > used to the herbs and build up resistance to them. It is such a shame > > that the main company which sells these herbs is unable to put the > > protocol for using them on their site. Some of the product names have > > changed: the is Amazon F-Gal is now Amazon A-F, and the immume product > > Imu-1 is called Immune Support. Myco+ name is the same. I used the > > liquid myco+ (rather than the capsules) as I felt it would be more > > easily absorbed. > > > > Here is the page which discusses how to use the herbs in the > > mycoplasma protocol: > > > > http://www.healing4 all.co.uk/ Rain_Forest_ Herbs/Mycoplasma > s/mycoplasmas. html > > > > This is the Raintree Nutrition page where the herbs are sold (although > > there are also other sites which sell their herbs): > > > > http://www.rain- tree.com/ rtmprod.htm > > > > Here is a great article from the Raintree Nutrition site about > > mycoplasma infections: > > > > http://rain- tree.com/ baseman-tully- article.htm > > > > best, Sarah > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine, Paul Harmsen <paulh01@ > wrote: > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > What tcm herbs are useful at treating spirochetal and fungi inside > > the body and one the skin? > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 2:37 PM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > Morgellon's, interestingly, as one person speculated, may have more to > do with gene drift and the subsequent synthesis of cellulose by human > beings. > Interesting theory, but personally, I don't like to lend any credibility to this alleged condition. I see nothing there but lots of paranoia and individuals who live to locate what's wrong with them online. It is right up there with parasites, which of course initiated this thread. The first post mentioned lyme, then other parasites, the Morgellon's... I have yet to hear of a single sign or symptom (beyond one mention of abdominal cramping, I believe) that supports any of these self diagnosis. > Unless you have seen goo stick to your skin, spread to create new > sore places on your skin and still think it is just an ordinary skin > infection I do not think it is fair to state that biofilms are " the > latest jargon. " > I'd favor the diagnosis of " shen disturbance " (read that as psychological) if a patient reported this. However, if there's an internal dampness issue that is percolating out to the surface, one could easily make a good case for that as a TCM observation provided there are corroborating signs and symptoms. Really, where I'm coming from here is that there IS a hysteria regarding parasites. It is a very attractive idea to people that there are little animals feeding on us and that if we get rid of them, we'll be all better. This is roughly the same emotional benefit to the whole " detox " fad. I'm willing to accept that there are certain conditions of toxicity. I got no problem with that, but when there is no differential diagnosis, people who self-diagnose are just buying in to someone's sales pitch in my opinion and there is no shortage of irrational approaches to medicine found online. I find myself standing in between a rock and a hard place on this one. There are plenty of biomedical folks who say the same thing about TCM being irrational, however what they don't get is that there is oodles of internal logic in the diagnostic approaches of TCM. One thing that I can say however is that the four examinations (observation, inquiry, palpation, listening/smelling) does not include " web surfing " or self-diagnosis. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2008 Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 Al, I am astonished that you seem to sound just like the doctors Morgellons patients report seeing: " I'd favor the diagnosis of " shen disturbance " (read that as psychological) > if a patient reported this. " As far as I know you do have a license in acupuncture, but I do not believe you have one in psychology nor do medical doctors. If it is your automatic preconceived assumption that anyone who may walk into your office saying they have parasites and/or skin lesions with unexplained fibers has only a psychological problem (or shen disturbance)accompanied by rampant self-interest then pity the poor client: " I see nothing there but lots of paranoia and > individuals who live to locate what's wrong with them online. " It seems to me that if a morgellons patient were to see you it could be similar to going to one of the myriad Western doctors who do not really listen to a patient, but have already made up their minds that anyone who reports what they have seen but which is not generally accepted by prevailing medical opinion is some sort of crazy, paranoid personality. It sounds to me as if you may in general be listening to Western medicine's diagnosis of DOP (delusions of parasites) and labeling all patients as such too. This type of attitude only adds to the trauma and heartache most of these patients already suffer. I believe the reason most of them get on the internet is because the condition they have is so frightening. There are not many in the medical field who will listen to them much less treat them. It is a situation as similar to AIDS as it can be. It is always easy to dismiss extreme symptoms until there are so many sick people the illness can no longer be ignored. Unfortunatley it seems to be a problem which involves the CNS and it is perhaps even associated with lyme as most patients with morgellons symptoms do test positive for lyme. So if some morgellons sufferers have brain fog it probably is not coming from a vacuum as lyme does have a neurological component to it. " Really, where I'm coming from here is that there IS a hysteria regarding > parasites. It is a very attractive idea to people that there are little > animals feeding on us and that if we get rid of them, we'll be all better. " Have you read what some of these patients are saying on the internet? Most of them seem to me to be horrified by what is happening to them (the lesions are disfiguring) and report feeling as if there is something crawling under their skin. They are scared from what I read and many women are devastated. Many also report staying in their homes as they are so embarrassed by people staring at their afflicted skin. I do not understand why you would think that parasites are an " attractive idea to people. " There is some research being done, but so far not a lot has been published. There are credible reports that some parasites are involved in some cases anyway and are being identified in this condition, perhaps as co-infections along with viruses and bacteria. Too little is known currently, but it is a story that will be hard to ignore much longer. Best, Sarah Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Al Stone " <al wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 2:37 PM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > > Morgellon's, interestingly, as one person speculated, may have more to > > do with gene drift and the subsequent synthesis of cellulose by human > > beings. > Interesting theory, but personally, I don't like to lend any credibility to > this alleged condition. I see nothing there but lots of paranoia and > individuals who live to locate what's wrong with them online. > > It is right up there with parasites, which of course initiated this thread. > The first post mentioned lyme, then other parasites, the Morgellon's... I > have yet to hear of a single sign or symptom (beyond one mention of > abdominal cramping, I believe) that supports any of these self diagnosis. > > > > > > Unless you have seen goo stick to your skin, spread to create new > > sore places on your skin and still think it is just an ordinary skin > > infection I do not think it is fair to state that biofilms are " the > > latest jargon. " > I'd favor the diagnosis of " shen disturbance " (read that as psychological) > if a patient reported this. > > However, if there's an internal dampness issue that is percolating out to > the surface, one could easily make a good case for that as a TCM observation > provided there are corroborating signs and symptoms. > > Really, where I'm coming from here is that there IS a hysteria regarding > parasites. It is a very attractive idea to people that there are little > animals feeding on us and that if we get rid of them, we'll be all better. > This is roughly the same emotional benefit to the whole " detox " fad. > > I'm willing to accept that there are certain conditions of toxicity. I got > no problem with that, but when there is no differential diagnosis, people > who self-diagnose are just buying in to someone's sales pitch in my opinion > and there is no shortage of irrational approaches to medicine found online. > > I find myself standing in between a rock and a hard place on this one. There > are plenty of biomedical folks who say the same thing about TCM being > irrational, however what they don't get is that there is oodles of internal > logic in the diagnostic approaches of TCM. One thing that I can say however > is that the four examinations (observation, inquiry, palpation, > listening/smelling) does not include " web surfing " or self-diagnosis. > > -- > , DAOM > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2008 Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 I looks like there's strong evidence linking Morgellon's disease�to GMOs: http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/index.php?p=599 Marilia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2008 Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 4:05 PM, baidanwu34 <baidanwu34 wrote: > Al, I am astonished that you seem to sound just like the doctors > Morgellons patients report seeing: > I *KNOW* ! Sometimes, when I write stuff and sound like those " show me the evidence " skeptics, it kind of bugs me. I've been advocating for the existence of channels as perceptual realities in the absence of structures that can be isolated. Does this apply to the sensation of insects crawling beneath the skin too? If taking antiparisitics helps, then perhaps it is a reality, but I'd still like to see how an antiparisitic treatment for Morgellons compares to placebo. Keep in mind too that most antiparisitcs are really known for their effects on speicific bugs, not all bugs. Along with differential diagnosis, this is not commonly considered in Morgellons treatment plans. If it is > your automatic preconceived assumption that anyone who may walk into > your office saying they have parasites and/or skin lesions with > unexplained fibers has only a psychological problem (or shen > disturbance)accompanied by rampant self-interest then pity the poor > client: > Patient/practitioner relationships are a different story entirely. I admit that I can be impatient with people, but in general I'm okay with the patient's *perceptions*. However I do not necessarily buy in to their * diagnosis*. If I did, I wouldn't need my own education, I could just use the self-diagnosis of others. This applies to everything that patients coming in with. Many come in with their own diagnosis, and 90% of the time I ignore it. It tells me nothing. The remaining 10%, I use the opinions of other TCM practitioners and kind of factor that into my own findings, depending on how clear the diagnosis is being communicated to me from the patient. > It seems to me that if a morgellons patient were to see you it could > be similar to going to one of the myriad Western doctors who do > not really listen to a patient, but have already made up their minds > that anyone who reports what they have seen but which is not > generally accepted by prevailing medical opinion is some sort of > crazy, paranoid personality. > Right, but I never said not to listen to the patient. I just stop when they're done reporting their symptoms and run headlong into self-diagnosis. I keep bringing up this idea of " differential diagnosis " . This is an important step in any medical procedure that is usually lacking when patients come in with their own diagnosis. What is differential diagnosis? As an example, let's take " headache " and differentiate them based on their location in the head. Back of the head headache is tai yang (Urinary Bladder), especially when associated with the common cold. Or, it is Shao Yin (Kidney) when aggravated by fatigue. Forehead headache is yang ming (Stomach/Large Intestine). One-sided or parietal (temples) headaches are associated with the shao yang channel (Gallbladder), and thus frequently stress-induced or associated with the menstrual cycle. Top of the head headache is associated with the jue yin channel (Liver) and can show up with other symptoms of cold in the jue yin (Liver) channel such as a pulling sensation in the testicles. The headache that derives from the back of the eye is also associated with the Jue Yin (Liver) as the internal channel there connects to the back of the eye. Actually, I believe the term is that the Liver channel " nets " the eye which is to say disperses around it. So, when a patient goes from headache directly to one of these various types, they're missing a lot of important data that prevents them from taking something cold for that yang ming heat type when they've really got the jue yin type that requires warming herbs. Just as an example. Every symptom is like that, including the sensation of insects beneath the skin. > It sounds to me as if you may in general be listening to Western > medicine's diagnosis of DOP (delusions of parasites) and labeling all > patients as such too. This type of attitude only adds to the trauma > and heartache most of these patients already suffer. I believe the > reason most of them get on the internet is because the condition they > have is so frightening. > Right, again this is a matter of patient/practitioner relationships. I don't believe that I'm the best there is in this regard, but I am certainly sensitive to the feelings of the patient. So, maintaining a medical opinion does not mean I have to be insensitive with patients. The question is, which would you rather have (not you, specifically, but anybody): a parasitic invasion that promises to eat you up from the inside out (ala worst case scenario fantasies of parasites), or a blood deficiency that results in a lack of nutrition to the skin leading to dryness and itching (and I presume various sensations of insects crawling during the gray zone in between normal sensations and numbness due to blood deficiency). Which would any patient want? I would think that the blood deficiency would be more attractive, we've got lots of really cool treatments for that, and you can add iron rich green leafy veggies, or red meat to your diet, or astringe excessive menstrual flow, or whatever, and you're all better! Or would you rather take something that kills the insects inside of you? I'm guessing that the majority of these patients would rather that they were right and chose the antiparasitics. Why is that? There is a psychological reason, which as you point out, is not my licensure (fair enough) but my working theory is that it is more attractive to people that they're issues are related to something that is not them, than that which is. (more on that below) > > There are not many in the medical field who will listen to them much > less treat them. It is a situation as similar to AIDS as it can be. > From the very beginning, AIDS was identified as a real issue, though before it was called AIDS, there were some other descriptions... in 1981 there were some unusual cases of Kaposi's Sarcoma in New York and pneumonia in Los Angeles. By 1982, a letter in The Lancet called it " gay compromise syndrome " . Others called it GRID (gay-related immune deficiency), AID (acquired immunodeficiency disease), " gay cancer " or " community-acquired immune dysfunction " . Certainly there is a lag between initial observations and a new disease, but in the case of AIDS, it doesn't seem to have taken long especially because people were coming in with legitimate pathologies, though the cause of these weren't understood until a year later. > It is always easy to dismiss extreme symptoms until there are so many > sick people the illness can no longer be ignored. Unfortunatley it > seems to be a problem which involves the CNS and it is perhaps even > associated with lyme as most patients with morgellons symptoms do test > positive for lyme. > Lyme testing measures exposure, not pathology. That's one of the down-sides of that particular test. I may have antibodies to exposure too, though no symptoms or disease. I did a quick search for some data on that, but couldn't find it. Does Lyme cause skin lesions (beyond the red circular thingy you get from the bite)? If the problem is in the CNS, then does that mean that the parasites are there? I mean, shouldn't we look at the CNS (central nervous system) and address any problems there? If this is true, then now we have parasites in the brain and spinal cord. This is going to generate oodles of new sensations of things crawling up the spine, and in the brain. Just you watch. Now, the other side of this CNS involvement is this: what you have done is offered up an alternative explanation, and for all I know, it may pan out. The CNS is not a simple thing and I don't claim to know either way, but when a patient complains of parasites beneath the skin and you only see signs and symptoms of a CNS problem, then you treat the CNS, not the non-existent parasites beneath the skin. This is differential diagnosis again. Very important. > > > " Really, where I'm coming from here is that there IS a hysteria regarding > > parasites. It is a very attractive idea to people that there are little > > animals feeding on us and that if we get rid of them, we'll be all > better. " > > Have you read what some of these patients are saying on the internet? > Most of them seem to me to be horrified by what is happening to them > (the lesions are disfiguring) and report feeling as if there is > something crawling under their skin. > \ Yes, " horrifed " = hysteria. And I don't mean to cast any dispersions on the female gender. Hysteria has a funky history as a medical term. My point being that there is a significant emotional / psychological component at play here. Show me a Morgollan's self-diagnosed patient who isn't horrified and you can prove me wrong. Trust me, I've treated lots of problems that I personally find horrifying, but the patient may or may not care at all. My working theory with Morgollans is that the horror came first (emotional / psychological stuff) and the self-diagnosis comes second, once those seeking to treat their psych issue online locate the information about Morgollans in question. Very easy to do. > They are scared from what I read > and many women are devastated. Many also report staying in their > homes as they are so embarrassed by people staring at their afflicted > skin. I do not understand why you would think that parasites are an > " attractive idea to people. " > People with skin problems have skin problems. People with body-dysmorphic syndrome have a psychological problem. This is a close cousin of that anorexia nervosa thing where you look into the mirror and see a fat person, even though nobody else does. I actually did have a patient who was obsessed with her skin and underwent weekly peels and acid baths and so forth. She was like an ex-rated cyborg eventually, with fake lips, boobs, butt, etc. thanks to the plastic surgery industrial complex of Southern California. But she never had a skin problem, only the perception of such. As far as the 'attractive idea to people' statement. I think that it works like this. You suspect that there is something wrong with you. I mean, really you, not just your body. This is a psychological issue. Maybe there is something wrong with you, maybe you live in a culture where same-sex affection is ostracized, even punished with violence or death. So, you're developing all of these somatic (appearing in the body) expressions of this underlying issue such as itching. I actually knew a lady who scratched her arms whenever her underlying guilt was aggravated. This was years ago, and I don't know what happened to her, but the point is that if she could have learned that her itching wasn't really a somatic expression of her underlying guilt, she would have gladly accepted that her itching (to the point of bloodying herself) was not her at all, but a parasite. *VERY*attractive to her as confronting her own internal demons was out of the question. But no, I don't believe that she found her symptoms attractive, just the ability to avoid confronting the real issues internally. > There is some research being done, but so far not a lot has been > published. > I can't find any mention of it in peer-reviewed journals, no. That in and of itself is strange, even if it is a psych issue, you'd think that someone would at least be writing about that. Conspiracy anybody? > There are credible reports that some parasites are > involved in some cases anyway and are being identified in this > condition, perhaps as co-infections along with viruses and bacteria. > Too little is known currently, but it is a story that will be hard to > ignore much longer. > Certainly this story hasn't ended yet. Thank you for your discussion on this matter. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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