Identity Crisis

[Guest guest]

There is much more to success than just marketing, lest not forget that

requires funds too. Most grads donot have additional funding to start nor

do they know how to approach a bank to get funding. This does not mean you

will get it though. I think this is a significant issue as I have heard

that only 50% are still in practice after 5 years. Youch! That does not

bide well for us collectively. We need to do better. The issues of school

closing are reflective of a declining enrollment not poor quality education,

although that could be a problem also. The same issue of decline has been

quoted for the chiro that over the last 6 years the national enrolless are

down 34%. One of the big reasons is that fewer people are actually

considering OM as a legit profession and those that due are equally prone to

see failure. This is in regards to less coverage by insurance. I have not

seen any increase in coverage nor are more practitioners getting paid.

Insurance is providing less as imployers want to pay less. They only want

to keep the bare minimums such as allopathic care. I worked for two years

in the medical insurance industry and have seen the enormous expense first

hand. This system cannot continue for several reasons. One is that fewer

people are paying into it. Two is that more are making claims (do you know

what a bypass can cost?). Three, interest rates are really low and this

affects the money that insurance companies make from policies. If lobbying

the companies is all that it takes, then what happened to the companies

covering CA work comp?

Later

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

>Yehuda L Frischman <

>

>

> re:identity crisis

>Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:53:51 -0800

>

>

>Dear Mike,

>

>The only reasons I could imagine why graduates would not live up to their

>expectations would be that they don't know how to market themselves, or

>locate themselves strategically. I can't imagine any other reason

>(unless they are inept!). As far as school closings, don't you think

>that this is a classic example of the stronger programs surviving and

>flourishing. Again, as schools become sophisticated and saavy, they will

>succeed in attracting more patients to their clinics, better professors

>to their faculties, and, of course, the bottom line, more qualified

>students to their programs. As far as insurance companies go, they are

>EXTREMELY sensitive to their client base. Don't you think that if enough

>individuals and groups request coverage for Acupuncture and Oriental

>medicine, that the pendulum will again swing our way. How was it that we

>became primary care providers for Worker's comp in California (though we

>aren't any more)? It's all from lobbying the companies. As they keep

>hearing that their patients get well faster and cheaper from us, you

>don't think they will blink, in spite of the MDs pressuring them?

>

>Yehuda

>

>

>

>Yehuda,

>Not to burst your bubble but many graduates do not make it as

>professionals

>after 5 years and there have been many school closings of recent years

>(19).

> Add to this a declining recognition by insurance companies and this is

>a

>major concern. The insurance industry is looking to hold onto its

>medical

>brethren at any cost, which means letting go of more cost effective

>alternatives. Later

>Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

> >Yehuda L Frischman <

> >

> >

> >Re: re:identity crisis

> >Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:29:41 -0800

> >

> >

> >Bob,

> >

> >We live during a time of change and evolution. Though, as we have

> >discussed, very few in America practiced more than acupuncture during

>the

> >80s and early 90s, today, the obligatory and requisite course of study

> >for students includes pretty extensive knowledge of Herbal medicine,

>and

> >one token course in tuina, taiji/qi gong, and shi liao (diet therapy).

> >Though agreed, the level, relative intensity, and volume of clinical

> >patient load that today's student faces is significantly inferior to the

> >student in the PRC, still, (and I have heard this from more than one of

> >my Chinese teachers) the English program and texts we use for herbs are

> >equivalent and at times superior to what the Chinese language programs,

> >at least in America teach. That speaks well for the didactic end of our

> >education, at least in herbs.

> >

> >You are correct that the dabbling we received in tuina, taiji/qi gong

>and

> >shi liao is embarrassingly inadequate, if we are to practice them, but

> >that is, I feel, the key question: what do we need to be successful

> >clinicians? By taking introductory classes in the above three, and by

> >taking appropriate CEU courses to supplement our education, we have the

> >opportunity to expand the breadth of our education. Furthermore, I

> >think you are mistaken when you contend that our practitioners are Jacks

> >of all trades but masters of none. You are comparing apples and

>oranges.

> > The environment, in the PRC, where there are the opportunities for

> >specialization has resulted from generations of tradition, and massive

> >numbers of patients available. This will not, for the foreseeable

> >centuries be the case here in America.

> >

> >Granted our system of education is young and immature. But I think that

> >it will continue to improve as the quality of texts improve and the

> >requirement for clinical experience increase.

> >

> >Meanwhile, the reputation of TCM continues to grow daily, practices are

> >increasingly busy, schools continue to grow in enrollment as the general

> >population sees results, and the amount of malpractice claims remain

> >negligible.

> >

> >I think that that is a pretty amazing state for our medicine to be in,

> >just 35 years after its introduction to these shores.

> >

> >Sincerely,

> >

> >Yehuda

> >

> >

> >

> >Alon,

> >

> >In my experience, Chinese yi-sheng graduate from one of three

> >divisions within their CM colleges: 1) acupuncture-tuina, 2) internal

> >medicine, 3) pharmacology. Even within the acupuncture division,

> >acupuncturists learn acupuncture and tuina practitioners learn tuina.

> >They do not learn or practice both and do not receive a diploma in

> >both. Similarly, internal medicine practitioners do not learn enough

> >acupuncture to practice it. Each learns only enough of the other's

> >modality to make knowledgable referrals and do some emergency

> >treatment if absolutely necessary.

> >

> >You, on the other hand, are saying we all need to be trained in all of

> >it. So what you are saying is that we should be jack of all trades but

> >master of none. As I see it, one of the big problems that we currently

> >have in our American CM educational system is that we are asking adult

> >learners to study and master three different modalities (acupuncture,

> >tuina, and Chinese herbal medicine) in an abbreviated length of time,

> >from questionable teachers, with insufficient clinical training, in

> >translation with questionable standards, and less brain cells and

> >time. If full-time Chinese students studying for 4 years in their own

> >language beginning at 18-19 years of age, from teachers who teach in

> >their own language, and who do internships in real hospitals under

> >experienced mentors are not asked to do this, why should we? Do we

> >know something that thousands of professional Chinese teachers and

> >academic administrators do not?

> >

> >I strongly object to this insistence on the part of some Westerners

> >that we should study and do it all.

> >

> >Bob

> >

> " When you see someone doing something wrong, realize that it was brought

>before

>you because you did something similar. Therefore, instead of judging

>him, judge yourself. "

>

>The Baal Shem Tov Hakodesh

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On 17/12/2004, at 8:30 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

>

> Don't go to Dr. X for herbs, because in China, he never learned

> them, and only became familiar with them in the mid-90s when he had to

> in

> order to pass the Cal state board. "

>

>>>>>> In our acupuncture clinic in china the acupuncturist wrote herbal

>>>>>> rx all the time. They were nothing very fancy but to say they had

>>>>>> not training in herbs is bull. Some followed family traditions,

>>>>>> some used hospital formulas and some wrote individualized

>>>>>> formulas.

>

>

>

 

Alon,

 

A lot has obviously changed since 1985 in China and TCM education has

also changed a great deal there. My 2002 experience was very different

to your 1985 one in terms of who was trained in what and the amount of

education they had to work in a provincial hospital. Sure, acupuncture

majors learn a little about herbal medicine, but to say they are

" trained " herbalists is just living in the dark ages.

 

Of course, the older doctors will be different cases as they have been

in the system before the modern university structures and requirements

were initiated (TCM education has had a large overhaul since the late

80's in China). However, new graduates are a different kettle of

fish........they have training in one modality and often require a

masters to get a position in a large hospital (even outpatients).

 

One of my translators finally got 3 half days in the outpatient clinic

in the internal medicine department after he started his PhD and I

never saw a Bachelor graduate get any position in the hospital.

 

Basing what is the Chinese education of TCM practitioners on 1985 is

not going to provide an accurate synopsis of what is happening

today..........it is 2 decades ago, times change; and China times are

changing faster than most.

 

Best Wishes,

Steve

[Guest guest]

Basing what is the Chinese education of TCM practitioners on 1985 is

not going to provide an accurate synopsis of what is happening

today..........it is

>>>>>It does sound like things are very diffrent, although this does not change

my position that basic training, ie medical school does not create any masters

or experts. What it should be is provide good fundations and teach one to think.

Speciality should only follow post basic training

alon

 

Steven Slater <laozhongyi wrote:

 

On 17/12/2004, at 8:30 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

>

> Don't go to Dr. X for herbs, because in China, he never learned

> them, and only became familiar with them in the mid-90s when he had to

> in

> order to pass the Cal state board. "

>

>>>>>> In our acupuncture clinic in china the acupuncturist wrote herbal

>>>>>> rx all the time. They were nothing very fancy but to say they had

>>>>>> not training in herbs is bull. Some followed family traditions,

>>>>>> some used hospital formulas and some wrote individualized

>>>>>> formulas.

>

>

>

 

Alon,

 

A lot has obviously changed since 1985 in China and TCM education has

also changed a great deal there. My 2002 experience was very different

to your 1985 one in terms of who was trained in what and the amount of

education they had to work in a provincial hospital. Sure, acupuncture

majors learn a little about herbal medicine, but to say they are

" trained " herbalists is just living in the dark ages.

 

Of course, the older doctors will be different cases as they have been

in the system before the modern university structures and requirements

were initiated (TCM education has had a large overhaul since the late

80's in China). However, new graduates are a different kettle of

fish........they have training in one modality and often require a

masters to get a position in a large hospital (even outpatients).

 

One of my translators finally got 3 half days in the outpatient clinic

in the internal medicine department after he started his PhD and I

never saw a Bachelor graduate get any position in the hospital.

 

Basing what is the Chinese education of TCM practitioners on 1985 is

not going to provide an accurate synopsis of what is happening

today..........it is 2 decades ago, times change; and China times are

changing faster than most.

 

Best Wishes,

Steve

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Don't go to Dr. X for herbs, because in China, he never learned

them, and only became familiar with them in the mid-90s when he had to in

order to pass the Cal state board. "

 

>>>>>In our acupuncture clinic in china the acupuncturist wrote herbal rx all

the time. They were nothing very fancy but to say they had not training in herbs

is bull. Some followed family traditions, some used hospital formulas and some

wrote individualized formulas.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Frank,

 

As far as title goes, what about Acupuncture Therapist?

 

This does not inlcude any indication of licensure/registration or

educational training. I do not agree with this as it further limits us to a

techician status. That maybe how other professionals see us but I do not.

We need titles and licensure that reflect the entire broad scope of OM like

OMD or DOM, etc. This is important as we do not own the needle as you

referred.

 

How can we own the needle, or at least be percieved as THE practitioners of

choice for

acupuncture?

 

By educating the public with a grassroots PR campaign and through individual

contacts. The press will tend to quote MD as they are still perceived to be

the profession of medical authority. We have not benefitted from this PR

and yet look at what has been accomplished. Quite alot actually in 30 short

years of time.

 

How can we become the best?

 

By continuing to study and push for grassroots public education as well as

professional ops and higher educational standards. The Chinese

practitioners are held in high regard due to knowledge in both WM and TCM.

There is no separation of the two in China as political entities fighting

over market share. There may be in the future. As for our theories, we

should note that recent research in S Korea and previous research in Japan

and N Korea has discovered an anatomical structure that follows the jing luo

descriptions of the classical texts. Biological research like this is

putting us in the future power position and we should not just scrap our own

theories for an unproven model like the nervous system. I am not saying

that nerves are not involved with our procedures just that it is unlikely

they are the main motivators of change. There is more to this than pain

relief. The meridian system is based upon physiology. How you practice it

is up to your understanding of it.

 

I would question any DC wanting to practice acupuncture with an

unaccreditted certificate and would share this educational concern with the

public as well. An informed public will decide how many hours they want to

pay for. In closing, acupuncture is not within the scope of practice for

chiro's in half the states. Wishful thinking on his part as chiro's are

loosing professional ground in many states as well. I am in a chiro program

and have a MTOM and share this issue with my classmates, who might otherwise

think nothing of getting a bogus acupuncture certificate. A jack of all

traders is not always a good idea. Later

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

> " scorpio6302002 " <scorpio6302002

>

>

> Identity Crisis

>Thu, 16 Dec 2004 20:11:30 -0000

>

>

>

>Hi everyone,

>

>I have followed the discussions on identity and education with great

>interest. I have many thoughts on the topic and would like to share

>a few. As far as title goes, what about Acupuncture Therapist, as

>in massage therapist or physical therapist? It doesn't exactly roll

>off the tongue, but if we believe acupuncture is a therapeutic

>modality and we are the ones performing it, than it is accurate and

>descriptive, without evoking any other expectations. I could see

>this as a separate designation from those who practice herbology,

>who could be described as Chinese Herbal Therapists. It's just an

>idea.

>

>Secondly, I think we may be better served to narrow our focus,

>rather than expand it. In the Chicago magazine this month, they

>list 65 " ground-breaking " practitioners who utilize alternative

>methods in their medicine. Many of them use acupuncture, and you

>guessed it, none of them are L.ac.s, all are MD's or DO's or DPM

>etc. In fact, the article made mention of several integrative care

>centers, but little or no mention of L.ac.s, only MD's who have

>graciously broadened their horizons. How can we own the needle, or

>at least be percieved as THE practitioners of choice for

>acupuncture? You wouldn't go to an MD for a massage, or a

>chiropractic adjustment for that matter. I would say that by being

>the best at it and the most knowledgeable, and by creating that

>identity, branding if you will.

>

>How can we become the best? Some people say it is the OM part that

>separtes us from medical or neuro anatomical acupuncture. I happen

>to be of the belief that OM theory in point selection is not of the

>utmost importance. I know many people in practice who are not

>guided by TCM acupuncture theory, but still get results. Honestly,

>I think the future of acupuncture does not lie in elaborating on the

>meridian system, but in understanding acupuncture on a physiological

>level and refining new techniques from this basis. Some may

>disagree with me, but it is already happening. I consider it

>embarassing that many massage therapists get a better education in

>anatomy than we do, and humiliating that very few graduates can

>articulate what a needle actually does in the human body. We should

>all be able at least on a rudimentary level to understand this.

>

>I could be wrong, but if acupuncture is shown to have concrete,

>reproducible beneficial, therapeutic effects, it will be taken

>seriously as a therapeutic modality. If it is looked at as

>manipulating invisible energy fields, we will continue to be

>marginalized.

>

>So what could make us better? In Wiseman's words, people want

>medicine that is natural, holistic, and caring. We are still in a

>position to deliver that. I also think that it could be recognized

>that we have superior palpation and needle skills compared to a

>physician by default, because that is what we do all day long.

>I believe a good deal of what acupuncture accomplishes is based on

>deactivating the stress response and giving the body a chance to

>move towards homeostasis. Many of us strive to create a serene

>office environment, which can also be part of the attraction. John

>Amaro says acupuncture is a fast way for a chiropractor to add $100k

>to their practice. But many people don't like assembly line

>medicine. We can also be on the cutting edge of new techniques and

>research in acupuncture, provided such things exist. To me, it is

>also embarassing that people from outside the field have to do our

>research for us.

>

>So in summary, I would say we need a better understanding of A & P,

>focus on palpation skills and technique, and an actual understanding

>of what acupuncture does and how we can improve it. We can not beat

>the MD's at their own game, let's not let them beat us at ours. If

>we have a good understanding of what acupuncture can and cannot do,

>we can be honest with our patients and ourselves.

>

>Frank Grill

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

" There is no separation of the two in China as political entities

fighting over market share. "

 

Of course there is.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Bob,

The last time that I checked China was still a Communist country although it

is leaning toward a free market. I doubt that the government will give up

control of its medicine and allow for professional organizations to lobby

for real power. Practitioners there get paid regardless of the number of

patients they treat. So what is your idea of marketshare? Later

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

> " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001

>

>

>Re: Identity Crisis

>Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:28:04 -0000

>

>

> " There is no separation of the two in China as political entities

>fighting over market share. "

>

>Of course there is.

>

>Bob

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

China is hardly very communist anymore. There is definitely

competition within different departments of hospitals, as well as

between WM & CM. Even though they use both, there are complex

politics involved over budget allocation, compensation tiers, etc.

 

I would be very surprised if the number of patients that doctors

treat is not factored into their compensation in China. I know that

in Taiwan, which also has gov't subsidized healthcare, doctors are

paid for each patient visit. Departments compete based on visits

and income generation.

 

I think you may have an oversimplified impression of the reality of

Chinese healthcare, as well as the impact that communism has in

modern-day China.

 

Respectfully,

Eric

 

, " mike Bowser "

<naturaldoc1@h...> wrote:

> Bob,

> The last time that I checked China was still a Communist country

although it

> is leaning toward a free market. I doubt that the government will

give up

> control of its medicine and allow for professional organizations

to lobby

> for real power. Practitioners there get paid regardless of the

number of

> patients they treat. So what is your idea of marketshare? Later

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

> > " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001>

> >

> >

> >Re: Identity Crisis

> >Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:28:04 -0000

> >

> >

> > " There is no separation of the two in China as political entities

> >fighting over market share. "

> >

> >Of course there is.

> >

> >Bob

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

 

Who is Dr. X? If you don't want to mention names, please let me know privately.

 

Robert Chu, L.Ac.

chusauli2003

 

 

 

On 17/12/2004, at 8:30 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

>

> Don't go to Dr. X for herbs, because in China, he never learned

> them, and only became familiar with them in the mid-90s when he had to

> in

> order to pass the Cal state board. "

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, Robert Chu

<chusauli2003> wrote:

> Hi all,

>

> Who is Dr. X? If you don't want to mention names, please let me

know privately.

 

 

We often use the name X to refer to an imaginary or theoretical

person. I don't think Alon was referring to anyone specific, he was

just saying " don't go to see so-and-so, because... " I think this is

just a colloquial English expression, not a message of a specific

doctor to avoid.

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

I think you might not understand the level of competition that I am

referring to. My former roomate from Bejing painted a very different

picture of what life was like there. The reality in the states is that we

have an organization that was created to eliminate competition (AMA). There

is no equivalent of this in China. They have not yet got to that stage of

competition. Individual dept or hosptials is one thing, I am talking about

professional disrimination. Later

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

> " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus

>

>

>Re: Identity Crisis

>Fri, 17 Dec 2004 23:15:12 -0000

>

>

>China is hardly very communist anymore. There is definitely

>competition within different departments of hospitals, as well as

>between WM & CM. Even though they use both, there are complex

>politics involved over budget allocation, compensation tiers, etc.

>

>I would be very surprised if the number of patients that doctors

>treat is not factored into their compensation in China. I know that

>in Taiwan, which also has gov't subsidized healthcare, doctors are

>paid for each patient visit. Departments compete based on visits

>and income generation.

>

>I think you may have an oversimplified impression of the reality of

>Chinese healthcare, as well as the impact that communism has in

>modern-day China.

>

>Respectfully,

>Eric

>

> , " mike Bowser "

><naturaldoc1@h...> wrote:

> > Bob,

> > The last time that I checked China was still a Communist country

>although it

> > is leaning toward a free market. I doubt that the government will

>give up

> > control of its medicine and allow for professional organizations

>to lobby

> > for real power. Practitioners there get paid regardless of the

>number of

> > patients they treat. So what is your idea of marketshare? Later

> > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> >

> > > " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001>

> > >

> > >

> > >Re: Identity Crisis

> > >Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:28:04 -0000

> > >

> > >

> > > " There is no separation of the two in China as political entities

> > >fighting over market share. "

> > >

> > >Of course there is.

> > >

> > >Bob

> > >

> > >

> > >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

My experience is that Communist China never had " gov't subsidized

healthcare " the individual communes or companies paid the bills. If your

company could not pay, you did not receive care. Not all communes or state

companies were equal. If you did not work or your company was poor - it was

cash or no service. Those 'free-loaders " would be literally chased away. If

in the hospital and the money ran out - you were out! The pharmacy often

that was handed out were influenced much the same as in America, by the

connection of the head of the departments to the communal companies. I

believe that is still - actually worse-so today. As people are no longer

guaranteed a job, hence no company to pay the hospital and the limit of only

one child (for over 20 years now) puts a extreme burden on that lone child

to support their parents (compared to six children sharing the burden

before). That said, the communists did bring at least some health-care to

the masses when compared to the pre-existing democratic government of Chang

K'sheck. When last I was in China, 2002, the hospitals looked cleaner and

more modern than my first visit in 1993. There was definite improvements and

more on the way. They were not looking back only with youthful pride to the

future. And still Departments compete based on visits and income

generation. And Still No Money No Service.

 

Ed Kasper LAc Santa Cruz, CA

 

 

 

 

" smilinglotus " <smilinglotus

Re: Identity Crisis

 

 

China is hardly very communist anymore. There is definitely

competition within different departments of hospitals, as well as

between WM & CM. Even though they use both, there are complex

politics involved over budget allocation, compensation tiers, etc.

 

I would be very surprised if the number of patients that doctors

treat is not factored into their compensation in China. I know that

in Taiwan, which also has gov't subsidized healthcare, doctors are

paid for each patient visit. Departments compete based on visits

and income generation.

 

I think you may have an oversimplified impression of the reality of

Chinese healthcare, as well as the impact that communism has in

modern-day China.

 

Respectfully,

Eric

[Guest guest]

I thought that the purpose of communism was to have the government take care

of things for you. Things may be changing there as it sounds. Previously,

TCM as well as other care was supplied by the government for the people.

This was confirmed to me from my former roomate from Beijing. He said

physicians at the hospitals there did not care about individuals as they got

paid regardless, which was not much. He also stated that new physicians did

not get many patients as most patients did not trust the youth. Everyone

wanted to see a wise, old physician for their troubles. What are the

physicians now making there? Later

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

> " Ed Kasper LAc " <eddy

>

>

> RE: Identity Crisis

>Sat, 18 Dec 2004 10:43:03 -0800

>

>My experience is that Communist China never had " gov't subsidized

>healthcare " the individual communes or companies paid the bills. If your

>company could not pay, you did not receive care. Not all communes or state

>companies were equal. If you did not work or your company was poor - it was

>cash or no service. Those 'free-loaders " would be literally chased away. If

>in the hospital and the money ran out - you were out! The pharmacy often

>that was handed out were influenced much the same as in America, by the

>connection of the head of the departments to the communal companies. I

>believe that is still - actually worse-so today. As people are no longer

>guaranteed a job, hence no company to pay the hospital and the limit of

>only

>one child (for over 20 years now) puts a extreme burden on that lone child

>to support their parents (compared to six children sharing the burden

>before). That said, the communists did bring at least some health-care to

>the masses when compared to the pre-existing democratic government of Chang

>K'sheck. When last I was in China, 2002, the hospitals looked cleaner and

>more modern than my first visit in 1993. There was definite improvements

>and

>more on the way. They were not looking back only with youthful pride to the

>future. And still Departments compete based on visits and income

>generation. And Still No Money No Service.

>

>Ed Kasper LAc Santa Cruz, CA

>

>

>

>

> " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus

>Re: Identity Crisis

>

>

>China is hardly very communist anymore. There is definitely

>competition within different departments of hospitals, as well as

>between WM & CM. Even though they use both, there are complex

>politics involved over budget allocation, compensation tiers, etc.

>

>I would be very surprised if the number of patients that doctors

>treat is not factored into their compensation in China. I know that

>in Taiwan, which also has gov't subsidized healthcare, doctors are

>paid for each patient visit. Departments compete based on visits

>and income generation.

>

>I think you may have an oversimplified impression of the reality of

>Chinese healthcare, as well as the impact that communism has in

>modern-day China.

>

>Respectfully,

>Eric

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

What are the

> physicians now making there? Later

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

In smaller towns, young doctors only make 600 to 800 rmb for a FT job.

In bigger cities, salaries can be higher, but I don't think many non

MD's or PhD's get a job there. They could earn up to 2000 rmb. The

best doctors, like for example Zhou ZhongYing in Nanjing, reportedly

makes yi wan kuai qian (10.000 rmb). Of course he's almost 80, I

guess, and sees 35 patients in a morning. It's also more expensive to

see a doctor like him (30 rmb). A normal visit to an acupuncture

clinic can cost just 6 or 10 rmb, depending on the doctor that you

choose. Dr Zhou also sees patients in the new ward of Nanjing

Provincial Hospital, and there you would have to pay 100 rmb to see

him. There's almost no-one there.

1 USD = 7.8 rmb

Maybe not representative for the whole of China, as Nanjing is one of

the richer Eastern cities.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Tom.

[Guest guest]

You are talking about 600-800 (up to one wan) rmb per month, right?

 

ERic

 

, " verhaeghe_tom "

<verhaeghe_tom@h...> wrote:

>

> What are the

> > physicians now making there? Later

> > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> >

> In smaller towns, young doctors only make 600 to 800 rmb for a FT

job.

> In bigger cities, salaries can be higher, but I don't think many

non

> MD's or PhD's get a job there. They could earn up to 2000 rmb. The

> best doctors, like for example Zhou ZhongYing in Nanjing,

reportedly

> makes yi wan kuai qian (10.000 rmb). Of course he's almost 80, I

> guess, and sees 35 patients in a morning. It's also more expensive

to

> see a doctor like him (30 rmb). A normal visit to an acupuncture

> clinic can cost just 6 or 10 rmb, depending on the doctor that you

> choose. Dr Zhou also sees patients in the new ward of Nanjing

> Provincial Hospital, and there you would have to pay 100 rmb to see

> him. There's almost no-one there.

> 1 USD = 7.8 rmb

> Maybe not representative for the whole of China, as Nanjing is one

of

> the richer Eastern cities.

>

> Hope this helps,

>

> Tom.

[Guest guest]

While this definition of communism makes sense, the reality has been that

the Chinese government is and has been in control of basically everything.

Do you not agree? They decide the what, when and how something will be

done. The observation about physician patient relationship was just that

and should be taken with a grain of salt. Remember that this observation

was due to a Chinese immigrant who may have a jaded view of his country. My

friend is also entitiled to his opinion whether we like it or not. As

neither you nor I live and work in China, we should probably withold

judgement. I would have to add that many people who are overworked and

underpaid tend to become apathetic (we see it with MD's here as well). This

tendency I have observed within our own profession as well. Those of us in

the states tend to want more work as we have open appointment space. We

also tend to spend more time and energy on each patient at least that is my

perception. There are those who have an assembly line approach and schedule

a lot of people at the same time. Questions do come up as to effectiveness

of care vs. cost of care. I guess we all need to decide for ourselves. I

would say in closing that I believe that most people like to have someone

who is present and focused on them and not on the next patient. Later

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

> " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus

>

>

>Re: RE: Identity Crisis

>Sun, 19 Dec 2004 05:59:16 -0000

>

>

> , " mike Bowser "

><naturaldoc1@h...> wrote:

> > I thought that the purpose of communism was to have the government

>take care

> > of things for you.

>

>

>**Actually, the purpose of communism was to put the power in the

>hands of the proletariat.

>

>

>Things may be changing there as it sounds. Previously,

> > TCM as well as other care was supplied by the government for the

>people.

> > This was confirmed to me from my former roomate from Beijing. He

>said

> > physicians at the hospitals there did not care about individuals

>as they got

> > paid regardless, which was not much.

>

>***With all due respect, the statement that the physicians didn't

>care about their patients is completely ridiculous. Physicians

>throughout history have cared for the health of their patients for

>reasons of general human compassion. Compensation has nothing to do

>with compassion. Chinese medicine has long emphasized benevolence.

>Clinics may be overwhelmed, doctors may be curt, resources may be

>scarce, but all good people throughout the world care about others.

>

>***Numerous Chinese medical works over the centuries have emphasized

>that " medicine is a benevolent art " (yi1 nai3 ren2 shu4). As Sun Si-

>Miao states in the qian1 jin1 fang1, " Anyone sick seeking assistance—

>no matter whether the person be noble or common, rich or poor, old

>or young, good-looking or ugly, friend or foe, good or bad, Chinese

>or foreign, intelligent or stupid, ordinary or outstanding—is always

>considered like the closest relative. " We may not always live up to

>that as well as we aspire to, but it is simply ludicrous to state

>that Chinese physicians don't care about their patients. It doesn't

>matter whether you are talking about 1000 years ago, 100 years ago,

>10 years ago, or 1 year ago.

>

> > He also stated that new physicians did

> > not get many patients as most patients did not trust the youth.

>Everyone

> > wanted to see a wise, old physician for their troubles. What are

>the

> > physicians now making there? Later

> > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

>**It is true that many Chinese patients would rather see an

>experienced practitioner than a newbie. Who wouldn't? Sometimes

>young Chinese people want to see a hip, young doctor who understands

>them better and has a really current education, but the Chinese are

>hardly alone in that realm, either. Most department heads and

>famous Chinese doctors are old. When young doctors are famous in

>Chinese society, you know they are really good at what they do.

>

>***I have no idea how much doctors make in the mainland. I imagine

>it varies considerably. I met a doctor at a provincial hospital

>(bachelor's in CM, CM dept) in Guangxi who made $80 a month, working

>6 days a week, 2 four hour shifts per day. Her taxes took out

>$30/month on top of that. Guangxi is a notoriously poor province,

>and they were having problems with corruption so her taxes were

>unnecessarily high. Despite being a doctor, she slept in her

>friend's restaurant at night and did tui na on tourists to get some

>extra cash. She is certainly not representative of the norm. I

>don't know that there IS a " norm, " because China is a vast country

>with a great deal of variation in economic prosperity.

>

>**In Taiwan, CM doctors make about US $4 per treatment. That is for

>internal med, I don't know how much acupuncturists make. Doctors

>who treat privately (i.e. without insurance) make much more, but I

>don't know how much.

>

>**Eric

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " smilinglotus "

<smilinglotus> wrote:

>

> You are talking about 600-800 (up to one wan) rmb per month, right?

>

> ERic

Yes, Eric, that is per month. Not that much, is it?

[Guest guest]

" Zepp " <zepp

Tue, 10 May 2005 05:10:44 -0700

[Zepps_News] The US Identity crisis

 

 

 

 

<http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/world_news/2005/05/10/identity_crisis\

..html>

Identity crisis

 

In Britain, we know a few things about the ill thought out mania

certain

politicians have for identity cards.

 

Both the Labour government and its Tory predecessor tried at various

stages to introduce them, co-opting the issue of the day into their

arguments in favour of an ID card scheme. John Major thought the cards

could help fight crime, while successive home secretaries in the Blair

government have insisted they are necessary to prevent misuse of the

NHS

and curtail international terrorism.

 

The lack of a coherent and convincing case means the arguments usually

turn into a kind of ID-cards-stop-bad-people mush. If the latest

British

scheme gets off the ground, the proposed 2012 introduction date would

give al-Qaida a seven-year window in which to attack. The

anti-terrorism

argument is either not believed by the people drawing up the

legislation, or it's nonsense.

 

Things look a little less complicated in Washington, where supporters

of

national ID cards have solved the problems posed by debate, arguments

and a case by packaging up the legislation with a bill on an entirely

different matter. Today, senators get to vote on a bill both providing

more funds for US troops in Afghanistan and Iraq and establishing a de

facto national identity scheme.

 

The purpose of the bill is to apply a series of nationally based

criteria to state-issued driving licences. At present, a state can

issue

licences to non-citizens for the same reason it issues them to citizens

– as proof that the named person has met its required standard of safe

driving. The so-called Real ID bill wants the states to also check

whether that person is in the US legally. Citizens of states that do

not

do this will find that their licences no longer have the status of ID

for federal buildings and aeroplanes.

 

The issues are very different to those in Britain - where licences are

not used as ID and there is no equivalent of the unusual outrage felt

by

some on the left at the federal government laying down rules for the

states - but some of the same issues of data handling and security

emerge.

 

While some have fretted over the wisdom and usefulness of a British

database run by an organisation with the Home Office's undesirable

reputation for big IT projects, the US bill asks state motor

departments

to become the holders and verifiers of larger amounts of personal data

with no additional funding.

 

It is, of course, for the Americans and their representatives to

decide,

but the attempt to keep driving licences out of the hands of terrorists

looks to be as badly thought out as some of the ID proposals in

Britain.

A worthwhile scheme in either country would need to balance necessity,

privacy, civil liberties and proportionality. Legislators should ask

what the point is, and whether the likely outcome will match their

expectations.

 

Non-threatening illegal immigrants will suffer most under the bill, the

New York Times reports – this may be the point, but it is far removed

from providing more funds for US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

The paper focuses its coverage on the case of Jorge Medina-González,

who

came to the US from Guatemala in 1991 to escape poverty and political

violence.

 

Medina, 42, was close to home when two Nutley police officers

stopped his Jeep Cherokee because of a broken taillight. They asked for

his license and registration, then his social security number. In the

few minutes it took them to search a national database in a curbside

version of the kind of checks that Congress is about to require

nationwide, the American life Medina had built over 13 years began to

crumble …

He stood before the police as a taxpaying Nutley homeowner with no

criminal record, the father of two US citizens, and a cook at a New

York

catering company that was sponsoring him for a green card. But the

computer search came back with a single message: Immigration

authorities, at one point, had ordered him deported. His driver's

license became a one-way ticket to immigration jail, where he remains.

--

Election 2004

The Triumph of the Swill

 

" The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost

duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation.

It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our

nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation

of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national

life. "

Adolph Hitler, My New World Order,

Proclamation to the German Nation

at Berlin, February 1, 1933

 

 

Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!

Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.

 

http://www.zeppscommentaries.com

For news feed, http:////zepps_news

For essays (please contribute!) http://zepps_essays