Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 acupuncture practitioner >>>Yehuda they are called acupuncture physician Alon, you're right, but that's not the point. What I was saying is that our title should represent what we do. The result of the course of study is to hopefully give a graduate a certain degree of theoretical and clinical expertise in all aspects of TCM, and not just acupuncture. Should not the licensure reflect what one is : a Licensed Practitioner (or Physician) of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (LPAOM)? Meaning that the state grants the license to practice what we do. Doesn't that make sense, or am I missing something. (Now I understand that at least in California, until around 15 years ago, herbal programs were more elective than compulsory, that in those days it truly was a license of Acupuncture. I actually know a few practitioners from that era who do only practice only acupuncture, and treat symptomatically, not using Chinese differential diagnosis. The title Licensed acupuncturist truly befits them, but today's graduates and those who do practice TCM....? Yehuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 , Yehuda L Frischman <@j...> wrote: > > Should not the licensure reflect what one is : a Licensed Practitioner > (or Physician) of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (LPAOM)? Meaning > that the state grants the license to practice what we do. Doesn't I'm not sure that the " L " for Licensed is even needed in the title. It would just make the holder of the title look like a lower level practitioner to the public. For instance, MDs, DOs, Dentists, Chiropractors, etc. do not have the " L " as part of the initials. You would never see LMD for a Licensed MD. However, social workers and even daycare operators use the " L " as part of their titles. There is nothing wrong with this, but you have to ask yourself, with whom would you like to be grouped. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 The title, Lic. Ac., was a historical " accident. " Back in the early 80s, no state was going to legalize a whole other system of medicine. However, acupuncture looked like a useful, relatively harmless adjunctive modality to lots of people. That is why we were able to get acupuncturists licensed back then. Licensing/legalizing CM/OM was a no-start position. (It still is in a number of states.) The word " licensed " was probably added because of its insurance reimbursement implications. I know we here in Colorado have fought to be up-graded from " registered " to " licensed " acupuncturists for just this reason. (Just won this battle last year.) Back in the early to mid-80s, all we were trying to do was practice legally. Till then, we were practicing behind closed doors, with no ability to advertise and the constant threat of being busted for the practice of medicine without a license. So at the time, we didn't care so much what we were called. We were simply happy to come out from underground. Once we got our foot in the legislative door, we have then expanded our scope in various states little by little. This incremental approach was the only thing that was possible at the time. In politics, it's important not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 , Yehuda L Frischman <@j...> wrote: > > Should not the licensure reflect what one is : a Licensed Practitioner > (or Physician) of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (LPAOM)? Meaning > that the state grants the license to practice what we do. Doesn't I'm not sure that the " L " for Licensed is even needed in the title. It would just make the holder of the title look like a lower level practitioner to the public. For instance, MDs, DOs, Dentists, Chiropractors, etc. do not have the " L " as part of the initials. You would never see LMD for a Licensed MD. However, social workers and even daycare operators use the " L " as part of their titles. There is nothing wrong with this, but you have to ask yourself, with whom would you like to be grouped. Brian C. Allen I will grant you that, but IMHO I see it as a logical and unifying next incremental step toward the far greater legitimacy that MDs, DOs Dentists and Chiropractors have. My point is that to call someone who studies what we do for four intense years, and prepares and passes no less intensely for the state board exam (at least in California), a " licensed acupuncturist " is demeaning as well as inadequate, equivalent to a Licensed day care operator, licensed massage therapist, or licensed cosmetologist, courses of study that are for a year or two, at most! Yehuda " When you see someone doing something wrong, realize that it was brought before you because you did something similar. Therefore, instead of judging him, judge yourself. " The Baal Shem Tov Hakodesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 I agree. The biggest group opposing us from this end is the chiropractors. They claim that they use a different set of theories which is why they won their lawsuit against the DO in the first place. So why can't we use this same logic to argue on our own behalf that we are using manipulations to improve qi and blood flow? This is not chiropractic technically anyway. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus > > >Re: re:identity crisis >Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:20:01 -0800 > >and not just acupuncture. > >>>>I agree, and lets remember that CM is not only acup and herbs. As long >as we think of it this way we are limiting were hopefully we can go in the >future. We need to demand the full scope of modern TCM, be educated in all >its modalities, and demand a name that reflects that. I am dealing with >some right now that for example do not want to include manipulation in our >definition of tui na. Talk about stupidity. We need to change our own self >image which is the only way we will demand increase in educational >standards. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Gee I thought it meant L(egitimate) Ac(upuncturist) just a jab away, of course that does not say what a Chinese herbalist does. But reminds me of a bunch of guys selling real estate in Chicago that on their own went out and made a name for themselves .... Realtors, This really defined what they were doing and the standards they aspired to. Don't need no government. Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Alon, In my experience, Chinese yi-sheng graduate from one of three divisions within their CM colleges: 1) acupuncture-tuina, 2) internal medicine, 3) pharmacology. Even within the acupuncture division, acupuncturists learn acupuncture and tuina practitioners learn tuina. They do not learn or practice both and do not receive a diploma in both. Similarly, internal medicine practitioners do not learn enough acupuncture to practice it. Each learns only enough of the other's modality to make knowledgable referrals and do some emergency treatment if absolutely necessary. You, on the other hand, are saying we all need to be trained in all of it. So what you are saying is that we should be jack of all trades but master of none. As I see it, one of the big problems that we currently have in our American CM educational system is that we are asking adult learners to study and master three different modalities (acupuncture, tuina, and Chinese herbal medicine) in an abbreviated length of time, from questionable teachers, with insufficient clinical training, in translation with questionable standards, and less brain cells and time. If full-time Chinese students studying for 4 years in their own language beginning at 18-19 years of age, from teachers who teach in their own language, and who do internships in real hospitals under experienced mentors are not asked to do this, why should we? Do we know something that thousands of professional Chinese teachers and academic administrators do not? I strongly object to this insistence on the part of some Westerners that we should study and do it all. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Bob, We live during a time of change and evolution. Though, as we have discussed, very few in America practiced more than acupuncture during the 80s and early 90s, today, the obligatory and requisite course of study for students includes pretty extensive knowledge of Herbal medicine, and one token course in tuina, taiji/qi gong, and shi liao (diet therapy). Though agreed, the level, relative intensity, and volume of clinical patient load that today's student faces is significantly inferior to the student in the PRC, still, (and I have heard this from more than one of my Chinese teachers) the English program and texts we use for herbs are equivalent and at times superior to what the Chinese language programs, at least in America teach. That speaks well for the didactic end of our education, at least in herbs. You are correct that the dabbling we received in tuina, taiji/qi gong and shi liao is embarrassingly inadequate, if we are to practice them, but that is, I feel, the key question: what do we need to be successful clinicians? By taking introductory classes in the above three, and by taking appropriate CEU courses to supplement our education, we have the opportunity to expand the breadth of our education. Furthermore, I think you are mistaken when you contend that our practitioners are Jacks of all trades but masters of none. You are comparing apples and oranges. The environment, in the PRC, where there are the opportunities for specialization has resulted from generations of tradition, and massive numbers of patients available. This will not, for the foreseeable centuries be the case here in America. Granted our system of education is young and immature. But I think that it will continue to improve as the quality of texts improve and the requirement for clinical experience increase. Meanwhile, the reputation of TCM continues to grow daily, practices are increasingly busy, schools continue to grow in enrollment as the general population sees results, and the amount of malpractice claims remain negligible. I think that that is a pretty amazing state for our medicine to be in, just 35 years after its introduction to these shores. Sincerely, Yehuda Alon, In my experience, Chinese yi-sheng graduate from one of three divisions within their CM colleges: 1) acupuncture-tuina, 2) internal medicine, 3) pharmacology. Even within the acupuncture division, acupuncturists learn acupuncture and tuina practitioners learn tuina. They do not learn or practice both and do not receive a diploma in both. Similarly, internal medicine practitioners do not learn enough acupuncture to practice it. Each learns only enough of the other's modality to make knowledgable referrals and do some emergency treatment if absolutely necessary. You, on the other hand, are saying we all need to be trained in all of it. So what you are saying is that we should be jack of all trades but master of none. As I see it, one of the big problems that we currently have in our American CM educational system is that we are asking adult learners to study and master three different modalities (acupuncture, tuina, and Chinese herbal medicine) in an abbreviated length of time, from questionable teachers, with insufficient clinical training, in translation with questionable standards, and less brain cells and time. If full-time Chinese students studying for 4 years in their own language beginning at 18-19 years of age, from teachers who teach in their own language, and who do internships in real hospitals under experienced mentors are not asked to do this, why should we? Do we know something that thousands of professional Chinese teachers and academic administrators do not? I strongly object to this insistence on the part of some Westerners that we should study and do it all. Bob " When you see someone doing something wrong, realize that it was brought before you because you did something similar. Therefore, instead of judging him, judge yourself. " The Baal Shem Tov Hakodesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Alon: I agree with you 100%. By having a more in-depth program this will give us the extra knowledge to practice at a higher level. I feel the educational standards for TCM should be increased to at least include more of the WM differential diagosis, this would help to assure that patients are not being treated for a serious illness that was missed. For example, in my past I worked doing PT at the local hospital, at that time I was also doing my EMT training in the hospital when a older man was rushed to surgery for an aortic aneurysm that burst. He died soon after. Upon questioning his wife, her husband had this similar type of pain that was getting worse. He had been complaining of abdominal pain and back pain. His MD treated him with antacids and NSAID's even though the patient was getting worse, there was no furthur investigation of this patients condition. With some of the MD's I have worked with, their knowledge of referral pain is inadequate. It amazes me, as a DC we had several courses on this, in orthopedics, neurology, physical and clinical exams, radiology...you get the point. For those of us who treat pain disorders, visceral disorders, etc. we should have a complete understanding of this. What I would like to see in the future is a higher standard of TCM education. It would be nice to model this after medical schools. The first 4 years we learn the basics and than choose a specialty to practice for the next 1-2 years. As a profession, we could model ourselves similar to the MD's but specialize in different areas of TCM. There's so much to know with so little professional education. Just a thought Brian N Hardy PS...I am awaiting your new book, when will it be released Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: You, on the other hand, are saying we all need to be trained in all of it. So what you are saying is that we should be jack of all trades but master of none. >>>I think we should learn them at the same level as in china. At least in 1985 they got some of the basics in everything the same way they do in WM med school. People then go into more depth in areas they are interested in (often this was post gradate). A good physician must have a good rounded education. And bob yes i think we should model our schools on China of better yet Korea. This means good biomedical basic training as well as TCM. I think we need a minimum of real full time 4 year training. That means 8 hr a day of classes with real demands on extra self study. That means getting rid of students that are not passing yearly exams, etc. Basic training as nothing to do with mastering anything (and medical schools is basic training). It has to do with minimum levels of competency in areas which are decided to be of value. Learning and being exposed to only one area just produces dogmatic robots that are not critical thinkers as is so evident in this profession. If all you have is a hammer everybody looks like a nail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Hi Bob, I feel like I really should know the answer to this question, but are you saying that TCM practitioners from China either study acupuncture or Chinese herbs (or tuina), but not both? That's hard for me to believe because I had some Chinese teachers in school who taught both acupuncture and herbs. Can you explain? Thanks-- Laura , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > > Alon, > > In my experience, Chinese yi-sheng graduate from one of three > divisions within their CM colleges: 1) acupuncture-tuina, 2) internal > medicine, 3) pharmacology. Even within the acupuncture division, > acupuncturists learn acupuncture and tuina practitioners learn tuina. > They do not learn or practice both and do not receive a diploma in > both. Similarly, internal medicine practitioners do not learn enough > acupuncture to practice it. Each learns only enough of the other's > modality to make knowledgable referrals and do some emergency > treatment if absolutely necessary. > > You, on the other hand, are saying we all need to be trained in all of > it. So what you are saying is that we should be jack of all trades but > master of none. As I see it, one of the big problems that we currently > have in our American CM educational system is that we are asking adult > learners to study and master three different modalities (acupuncture, > tuina, and Chinese herbal medicine) in an abbreviated length of time, > from questionable teachers, with insufficient clinical training, in > translation with questionable standards, and less brain cells and > time. If full-time Chinese students studying for 4 years in their own > language beginning at 18-19 years of age, from teachers who teach in > their own language, and who do internships in real hospitals under > experienced mentors are not asked to do this, why should we? Do we > know something that thousands of professional Chinese teachers and > academic administrators do not? > > I strongly object to this insistence on the part of some Westerners > that we should study and do it all. > > Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 and not just acupuncture. >>>>I agree, and lets remember that CM is not only acup and herbs. As long as we think of it this way we are limiting were hopefully we can go in the future. We need to demand the full scope of modern TCM, be educated in all its modalities, and demand a name that reflects that. I am dealing with some right now that for example do not want to include manipulation in our definition of tui na. Talk about stupidity. We need to change our own self image which is the only way we will demand increase in educational standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Laura, I hate to butt in to a question asked of another, but I can vouch for what Bob is saying. I know that in my school, we had a tuina master who had supposedly published a book in China on Tuina, was always in demand because of tuina skill, by both patients and students, was also quite adept in acupuncture orthopedics, but when it came to formula writing, his skill left much to be desired. I remember, that in my second year of school, I asked a Korean colleague of his about what seemed to be a formula of little value relative to the patient in question. His answer was, " Don't go to Dr. X for herbs, because in China, he never learned them, and only became familiar with them in the mid-90s when he had to in order to pass the Cal state board. " Hi Bob, I feel like I really should know the answer to this question, but are you saying that TCM practitioners from China either study acupuncture or Chinese herbs (or tuina), but not both? That's hard for me to believe because I had some Chinese teachers in school who taught both acupuncture and herbs. Can you explain? Thanks-- Laura " When you see someone doing something wrong, realize that it was brought before you because you did something similar. Therefore, instead of judging him, judge yourself. " The Baal Shem Tov Hakodesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Hi Laura, TCM training in China certainly is separated for acupuncture/tuina, herbs and pharmacology. Each major does some study of the other, but students only gain the full basic education in one and practice only that modality in clinic. I posted a more detailed explanation via the example of Shanghai Uni of TCM in the Masters in Australia thread. But basically:- TCM (Herbal medicine) = 5 years full time Acupuncture or Tuina = 5 years full time Pharmacology = 4 years full time It is in light of these simple facts that irritates me when some think 3 or 4 years study is perfectly sufficient to cover all these is modalities for practice. The other issue about teachers is important.......I too had many teachers who taught all 3, but only qualified in one in China. This is an issue for our education that is often overlooked. We often have teachers who only really studied acupuncture in China lecturing on herbal medicine............ Best Wishes, Steve On 15/12/2004, at 6:04 PM, heylaurag wrote: > > > Hi Bob, I feel like I really should know the answer to this question, > but are you saying that TCM practitioners from China either study > acupuncture or Chinese herbs (or tuina), but not both? That's hard > for me to believe because I had some Chinese teachers in school who > taught both acupuncture and herbs. Can you explain? Thanks-- > > Laura > > > , " Bob Flaws " > <pemachophel2001> wrote: >> >> Alon, >> >> In my experience, Chinese yi-sheng graduate from one of three >> divisions within their CM colleges: 1) acupuncture-tuina, 2) internal >> medicine, 3) pharmacology. Even within the acupuncture division, >> acupuncturists learn acupuncture and tuina practitioners learn tuina. >> They do not learn or practice both and do not receive a diploma in >> both. Similarly, internal medicine practitioners do not learn enough >> acupuncture to practice it. Each learns only enough of the other's >> modality to make knowledgable referrals and do some emergency >> treatment if absolutely necessary. >> >> You, on the other hand, are saying we all need to be trained in all of >> it. So what you are saying is that we should be jack of all trades but >> master of none. As I see it, one of the big problems that we currently >> have in our American CM educational system is that we are asking adult >> learners to study and master three different modalities (acupuncture, >> tuina, and Chinese herbal medicine) in an abbreviated length of time, >> from questionable teachers, with insufficient clinical training, in >> translation with questionable standards, and less brain cells and >> time. If full-time Chinese students studying for 4 years in their own >> language beginning at 18-19 years of age, from teachers who teach in >> their own language, and who do internships in real hospitals under >> experienced mentors are not asked to do this, why should we? Do we >> know something that thousands of professional Chinese teachers and >> academic administrators do not? >> >> I strongly object to this insistence on the part of some Westerners >> that we should study and do it all. >> >> Bob > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Hi Steve, Very interesting....I wish that I had known that at the time. Now that I think about it, it does make sense though. Looking back, it seems pretty obvious to me which specialty my teachers had. That also explains why I have had trouble coming up with someone to consult with who seems to excell in BOTH acupuncture and Chinese herbs! Clearly I need to find one person for herbs and one person for acupuncture, huh? I'm not sure that it is inherently bad that there is now this western anomaly of practitioners who studied both. I realize that this approach runs the risk of creating a practitioner who is a jack of all trades, master of none....but one does inform us of the other....so in some ways knowing about one does make us better at the other. There are some conditions that I feel like I treat better with acupuncture than people who didn't study herbs. I feel like an herbalist's approach to acupuncture has some merit (I know there are many who disagree with me---but I've seen it work). At this point I personally haven't decided which I am more in love with---acupuncture or herbs. I swing back and forth, I am so fickle. I want to excell at both. Is that really asking too much? Laura , Steven Slater <laozhongyi@m...> wrote: > Hi Laura, > > TCM training in China certainly is separated for acupuncture/tuina, > herbs and pharmacology. Each major does some study of the other, but > students only gain the full basic education in one and practice only > that modality in clinic. I posted a more detailed explanation via the > example of Shanghai Uni of TCM in the Masters in Australia thread. But > basically:- > > TCM (Herbal medicine) = 5 years full time > Acupuncture or Tuina = 5 years full time > Pharmacology = 4 years full time > > It is in light of these simple facts that irritates me when some think > 3 or 4 years study is perfectly sufficient to cover all these is > modalities for practice. > > The other issue about teachers is important.......I too had many > teachers who taught all 3, but only qualified in one in China. This is > an issue for our education that is often overlooked. We often have > teachers who only really studied acupuncture in China lecturing on > herbal medicine............ > > Best Wishes, > > Steve > > On 15/12/2004, at 6:04 PM, heylaurag wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Bob, I feel like I really should know the answer to this question, > > but are you saying that TCM practitioners from China either study > > acupuncture or Chinese herbs (or tuina), but not both? That's hard > > for me to believe because I had some Chinese teachers in school who > > taught both acupuncture and herbs. Can you explain? Thanks-- > > > > Laura > > > > > > , " Bob Flaws " > > <pemachophel2001> wrote: > >> > >> Alon, > >> > >> In my experience, Chinese yi-sheng graduate from one of three > >> divisions within their CM colleges: 1) acupuncture-tuina, 2) internal > >> medicine, 3) pharmacology. Even within the acupuncture division, > >> acupuncturists learn acupuncture and tuina practitioners learn tuina. > >> They do not learn or practice both and do not receive a diploma in > >> both. Similarly, internal medicine practitioners do not learn enough > >> acupuncture to practice it. Each learns only enough of the other's > >> modality to make knowledgable referrals and do some emergency > >> treatment if absolutely necessary. > >> > >> You, on the other hand, are saying we all need to be trained in all of > >> it. So what you are saying is that we should be jack of all trades but > >> master of none. As I see it, one of the big problems that we currently > >> have in our American CM educational system is that we are asking adult > >> learners to study and master three different modalities (acupuncture, > >> tuina, and Chinese herbal medicine) in an abbreviated length of time, > >> from questionable teachers, with insufficient clinical training, in > >> translation with questionable standards, and less brain cells and > >> time. If full-time Chinese students studying for 4 years in their own > >> language beginning at 18-19 years of age, from teachers who teach in > >> their own language, and who do internships in real hospitals under > >> experienced mentors are not asked to do this, why should we? Do we > >> know something that thousands of professional Chinese teachers and > >> academic administrators do not? > >> > >> I strongly object to this insistence on the part of some Westerners > >> that we should study and do it all. > >> > >> Bob > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 What I find interesting and missing when we discuss this issue is how much of their training is actually in WM vs. CM? I have heard that only two full-time years are in CM. Also important to point out that they start their undergrad earlier. I think that the best model to look at is the one used by the US DC and ND schools. Both of these systems have chosen to provide a large contingent of western sciences along with their own ideas of diagnosis and therapy. Our educational system is trying to buck the norm and has served to bite us in the rear. I accept that our profession wants to be different, let's make this difference show up by improving future practitioner development. Then would could truly say that we have the best of both worlds. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Steven Slater <laozhongyi > > >Re: re:identity crisis >Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:43:21 +1100 > >Hi Laura, > >TCM training in China certainly is separated for acupuncture/tuina, >herbs and pharmacology. Each major does some study of the other, but >students only gain the full basic education in one and practice only >that modality in clinic. I posted a more detailed explanation via the >example of Shanghai Uni of TCM in the Masters in Australia thread. But >basically:- > >TCM (Herbal medicine) = 5 years full time >Acupuncture or Tuina = 5 years full time >Pharmacology = 4 years full time > >It is in light of these simple facts that irritates me when some think >3 or 4 years study is perfectly sufficient to cover all these is >modalities for practice. > >The other issue about teachers is important.......I too had many >teachers who taught all 3, but only qualified in one in China. This is >an issue for our education that is often overlooked. We often have >teachers who only really studied acupuncture in China lecturing on >herbal medicine............ > >Best Wishes, > >Steve > >On 15/12/2004, at 6:04 PM, heylaurag wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Bob, I feel like I really should know the answer to this question, > > but are you saying that TCM practitioners from China either study > > acupuncture or Chinese herbs (or tuina), but not both? That's hard > > for me to believe because I had some Chinese teachers in school who > > taught both acupuncture and herbs. Can you explain? Thanks-- > > > > Laura > > > > > > , " Bob Flaws " > > <pemachophel2001> wrote: > >> > >> Alon, > >> > >> In my experience, Chinese yi-sheng graduate from one of three > >> divisions within their CM colleges: 1) acupuncture-tuina, 2) internal > >> medicine, 3) pharmacology. Even within the acupuncture division, > >> acupuncturists learn acupuncture and tuina practitioners learn tuina. > >> They do not learn or practice both and do not receive a diploma in > >> both. Similarly, internal medicine practitioners do not learn enough > >> acupuncture to practice it. Each learns only enough of the other's > >> modality to make knowledgable referrals and do some emergency > >> treatment if absolutely necessary. > >> > >> You, on the other hand, are saying we all need to be trained in all of > >> it. So what you are saying is that we should be jack of all trades but > >> master of none. As I see it, one of the big problems that we currently > >> have in our American CM educational system is that we are asking adult > >> learners to study and master three different modalities (acupuncture, > >> tuina, and Chinese herbal medicine) in an abbreviated length of time, > >> from questionable teachers, with insufficient clinical training, in > >> translation with questionable standards, and less brain cells and > >> time. If full-time Chinese students studying for 4 years in their own > >> language beginning at 18-19 years of age, from teachers who teach in > >> their own language, and who do internships in real hospitals under > >> experienced mentors are not asked to do this, why should we? Do we > >> know something that thousands of professional Chinese teachers and > >> academic administrators do not? > >> > >> I strongly object to this insistence on the part of some Westerners > >> that we should study and do it all. > >> > >> Bob > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 One of our greatest difficulties is that of wanting to teach to the lowest common denominator and accepting everyone into our programs. This alone tends to weaken us in the eyes of our competitors. I like the idea of a full-time 4 year program, makes sense. The program that I attended started out with night/weekend classes and moved into full-time day classes. I attended for 6 years and felt that adding 1000 hours of tui na/bodywork was essential. I felt this was a good entry level education for CM. The WM and practice mgmt were weak at that time. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus > > >Re: re:identity crisis >Wed, 15 Dec 2004 07:40:44 -0800 > >You, on the other hand, are saying we all need to be trained in all of >it. So what you are saying is that we should be jack of all trades but >master of none. > >>>I think we should learn them at the same level as in china. At least in >1985 they got some of the basics in everything the same way they do in WM >med school. People then go into more depth in areas they are interested in >(often this was post gradate). A good physician must have a good rounded >education. And bob yes i think we should model our schools on China of >better yet Korea. This means good biomedical basic training as well as TCM. >I think we need a minimum of real full time 4 year training. That means 8 >hr a day of classes with real demands on extra self study. That means >getting rid of students that are not passing yearly exams, etc. Basic >training as nothing to do with mastering anything (and medical schools is >basic training). It has to do with minimum levels of competency in areas >which are decided to be of value. Learning and being exposed to only one >area just produces dogmatic robots that are not critical thinkers as is so >evident in this profession. If all you have is a hammer everybody looks >like a nail. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 You, on the other hand, are saying we all need to be trained in all of it. So what you are saying is that we should be jack of all trades but master of none. >>>I think we should learn them at the same level as in china. At least in 1985 they got some of the basics in everything the same way they do in WM med school. People then go into more depth in areas they are interested in (often this was post gradate). A good physician must have a good rounded education. And bob yes i think we should model our schools on China of better yet Korea. This means good biomedical basic training as well as TCM. I think we need a minimum of real full time 4 year training. That means 8 hr a day of classes with real demands on extra self study. That means getting rid of students that are not passing yearly exams, etc. Basic training as nothing to do with mastering anything (and medical schools is basic training). It has to do with minimum levels of competency in areas which are decided to be of value. Learning and being exposed to only one area just produces dogmatic robots that are not critical thinkers as is so evident in this profession. If all you have is a hammer everybody looks like a nail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 " Hi Bob, I feel like I really should know the answer to this question, but are you saying that TCM practitioners from China either study acupuncture or Chinese herbs (or tuina), but not both? That's hard for me to believe because I had some Chinese teachers in school who taught both acupuncture and herbs. Can you explain? Thanks-- Laura, Most definitely that's what I'm saying. Typically, when Chinese doctors get to the U.S., they are told (either by their compatriots or school administrators) that they need to do both modalities. What that means is that the majority have to learn acupuncture. I've talked to a number of Chinese doctors teaching at U.S. schools who have specifically told me that this is what they had to do. Did you ever ask any of these Chinese doctors the extent of their training in acupuncture? I think you might be surprised. When I was a student at the Shanghai College of CM back in the early 80s, there were a number of Chinese who had gotten exit visas to move to North America or Europe who were taking three month acupuncture courses so they could work in their new country. One that I became friendly with was a graduate of the college who was a famous tuina practitioner but felt he needed to learn acupuncture. I'm sure all of these said they were graduates of the college and never told their clients what their real training and experience in acupuncture was. As we all know, the definition of an expert is someone who comes from far away, preferably another country. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Yehuda, Not to burst your bubble but many graduates do not make it as professionals after 5 years and there have been many school closings of recent years (19). Add to this a declining recognition by insurance companies and this is a major concern. The insurance industry is looking to hold onto its medical brethren at any cost, which means letting go of more cost effective alternatives. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Yehuda L Frischman < > > >Re: re:identity crisis >Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:29:41 -0800 > > >Bob, > >We live during a time of change and evolution. Though, as we have >discussed, very few in America practiced more than acupuncture during the >80s and early 90s, today, the obligatory and requisite course of study >for students includes pretty extensive knowledge of Herbal medicine, and >one token course in tuina, taiji/qi gong, and shi liao (diet therapy). >Though agreed, the level, relative intensity, and volume of clinical >patient load that today's student faces is significantly inferior to the >student in the PRC, still, (and I have heard this from more than one of >my Chinese teachers) the English program and texts we use for herbs are >equivalent and at times superior to what the Chinese language programs, >at least in America teach. That speaks well for the didactic end of our >education, at least in herbs. > >You are correct that the dabbling we received in tuina, taiji/qi gong and >shi liao is embarrassingly inadequate, if we are to practice them, but >that is, I feel, the key question: what do we need to be successful >clinicians? By taking introductory classes in the above three, and by >taking appropriate CEU courses to supplement our education, we have the >opportunity to expand the breadth of our education. Furthermore, I >think you are mistaken when you contend that our practitioners are Jacks >of all trades but masters of none. You are comparing apples and oranges. > The environment, in the PRC, where there are the opportunities for >specialization has resulted from generations of tradition, and massive >numbers of patients available. This will not, for the foreseeable >centuries be the case here in America. > >Granted our system of education is young and immature. But I think that >it will continue to improve as the quality of texts improve and the >requirement for clinical experience increase. > >Meanwhile, the reputation of TCM continues to grow daily, practices are >increasingly busy, schools continue to grow in enrollment as the general >population sees results, and the amount of malpractice claims remain >negligible. > >I think that that is a pretty amazing state for our medicine to be in, >just 35 years after its introduction to these shores. > >Sincerely, > >Yehuda > > > >Alon, > >In my experience, Chinese yi-sheng graduate from one of three >divisions within their CM colleges: 1) acupuncture-tuina, 2) internal >medicine, 3) pharmacology. Even within the acupuncture division, >acupuncturists learn acupuncture and tuina practitioners learn tuina. >They do not learn or practice both and do not receive a diploma in >both. Similarly, internal medicine practitioners do not learn enough >acupuncture to practice it. Each learns only enough of the other's >modality to make knowledgable referrals and do some emergency >treatment if absolutely necessary. > >You, on the other hand, are saying we all need to be trained in all of >it. So what you are saying is that we should be jack of all trades but >master of none. As I see it, one of the big problems that we currently >have in our American CM educational system is that we are asking adult >learners to study and master three different modalities (acupuncture, >tuina, and Chinese herbal medicine) in an abbreviated length of time, >from questionable teachers, with insufficient clinical training, in >translation with questionable standards, and less brain cells and >time. If full-time Chinese students studying for 4 years in their own >language beginning at 18-19 years of age, from teachers who teach in >their own language, and who do internships in real hospitals under >experienced mentors are not asked to do this, why should we? Do we >know something that thousands of professional Chinese teachers and >academic administrators do not? > >I strongly object to this insistence on the part of some Westerners >that we should study and do it all. > >Bob " When you see someone doing something wrong, realize that it was brought >before >you because you did something similar. Therefore, instead of judging >him, judge yourself. " > >The Baal Shem Tov Hakodesh > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Hi, I can see your point, and it makes sense...but here's another way to look at it: I personally don't necessarily want that level of responsibility. I don't think that I could ever feel competent enough to be responsibile for knowing when there might be a serious western dx unless I actually was an MD...and I have no interest in being an MD. I think that people do not expect us to be able to make that call, and I don't want them to start to expect it. They just expect us to understand things from a TCM point of view, and that's how I like it. People go ahead and have things checked out by their MD whether I suggest it or not. Its like, just because a dietician might suggest a diet change that might be good for a health problem doesn't mean that they are saying that you do not have a serious health problem needing more intervention. So just because someone is trying acupuncture doesn't mean we are saying they might not need a different intervention. I sure am full of opinions these days, huh? As a new practitioner, maybe I shouldn't be so opinionated though...what do I know?! Laura Laura , Brian Hardy <mischievous00> wrote: > > Alon: > > I agree with you 100%. By having a more in-depth program this will give us the extra knowledge to practice at a higher level. > > I feel the educational standards for TCM should be increased to at least include more of the WM differential diagosis, this would help to assure that patients are not being treated for a serious illness that was missed. > > For example, in my past I worked doing PT at the local hospital, at that time I was also doing my EMT training in the hospital when a older man was rushed to surgery for an aortic aneurysm that burst. He died soon after. Upon questioning his wife, her husband had this similar type of pain that was getting worse. He had been complaining of abdominal pain and back pain. His MD treated him with antacids and NSAID's even though the patient was getting worse, there was no furthur investigation of this patients condition. > > With some of the MD's I have worked with, their knowledge of referral pain is inadequate. It amazes me, as a DC we had several courses on this, in orthopedics, neurology, physical and clinical exams, radiology...you get the point. > > For those of us who treat pain disorders, visceral disorders, etc. we should have a complete understanding of this. > > What I would like to see in the future is a higher standard of TCM education. It would be nice to model this after medical schools. The first 4 years we learn the basics and than choose a specialty to practice for the next 1-2 years. > > As a profession, we could model ourselves similar to the MD's but specialize in different areas of TCM. > > There's so much to know with so little professional education. > > Just a thought > > Brian N Hardy > > PS...I am awaiting your new book, when will it be released > > > Alon Marcus <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > You, on the other hand, are saying we all need to be trained in all of > it. So what you are saying is that we should be jack of all trades but > master of none. > >>>I think we should learn them at the same level as in china. At least in 1985 they got some of the basics in everything the same way they do in WM med school. People then go into more depth in areas they are interested in (often this was post gradate). A good physician must have a good rounded education. And bob yes i think we should model our schools on China of better yet Korea. This means good biomedical basic training as well as TCM. I think we need a minimum of real full time 4 year training. That means 8 hr a day of classes with real demands on extra self study. That means getting rid of students that are not passing yearly exams, etc. Basic training as nothing to do with mastering anything (and medical schools is basic training). It has to do with minimum levels of competency in areas which are decided to be of value. Learning and being exposed to only one area just produces dogmatic robots that are not critical thinkers as is so evident in this profession. If all you have > is a hammer everybody looks like a nail. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Laura, Opinions are good and everyone has a few. As for western diagnosis it is a complicated thing as many states have legislated that we refer to an MD for serious medical conditions. Depending on your state you might have this obligation. I think that the level of basic medical knowledge is important to properly refer and fulfill our obligation to provide care. I think we tend to get bent out of shape when we think about the possible liability or all of the medical knowledge out their. This should not be our biggest focus, it should be on quality patient care. Our roles are changing and we are becoming more mainstream. With that comes greater ops and challenges. These will be overcome by improved and increased coursework. Integration is the future, separation is not. Our colleagues throughout the world know this and it is reflected in their educational programs. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac On 12/15/04 9:31 PM, " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > Hi, I can see your point, and it makes sense...but here's another way > to look at it: > > I personally don't necessarily want that level of responsibility. I > don't think that I could ever feel competent enough to be > responsibile for knowing when there might be a serious western dx > unless I actually was an MD...and I have no interest in being an MD. > > I think that people do not expect us to be able to make that call, > and I don't want them to start to expect it. They just expect us to > understand things from a TCM point of view, and that's how I like it. > People go ahead and have things checked out by their MD whether I > suggest it or not. Its like, just because a dietician might suggest > a diet change that might be good for a health problem doesn't mean > that they are saying that you do not have a serious health problem > needing more intervention. So just because someone is trying > acupuncture doesn't mean we are saying they might not need a > different intervention. > > I sure am full of opinions these days, huh? As a new practitioner, > maybe I shouldn't be so opinionated though...what do I know?! > > Laura > > Laura > > > , Brian Hardy > <mischievous00> wrote: >> > >> > Alon: >> > >> > I agree with you 100%. By having a more in-depth program this will > give us the extra knowledge to practice at a higher level. >> > >> > I feel the educational standards for TCM should be increased to at > least include more of the WM differential diagosis, this would help > to assure that patients are not being treated for a serious illness > that was missed. >> > >> > For example, in my past I worked doing PT at the local hospital, at > that time I was also doing my EMT training in the hospital when a > older man was rushed to surgery for an aortic aneurysm that burst. He > died soon after. Upon questioning his wife, her husband had this > similar type of pain that was getting worse. He had been complaining > of abdominal pain and back pain. His MD treated him with antacids and > NSAID's even though the patient was getting worse, there was no > furthur investigation of this patients condition. >> > >> > With some of the MD's I have worked with, their knowledge of > referral pain is inadequate. It amazes me, as a DC we had several > courses on this, in orthopedics, neurology, physical and clinical > exams, radiology...you get the point. >> > >> > For those of us who treat pain disorders, visceral disorders, etc. > we should have a complete understanding of this. >> > >> > What I would like to see in the future is a higher standard of TCM > education. It would be nice to model this after medical schools. The > first 4 years we learn the basics and than choose a specialty to > practice for the next 1-2 years. >> > >> > As a profession, we could model ourselves similar to the MD's but > specialize in different areas of TCM. >> > >> > There's so much to know with so little professional education. >> > >> > Just a thought >> > >> > Brian N Hardy >> > >> > PS...I am awaiting your new book, when will it be released >> > >> > >> > Alon Marcus <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: >> > You, on the other hand, are saying we all need to be trained in all > of >> > it. So what you are saying is that we should be jack of all trades > but >> > master of none. >>>>> > >>>I think we should learn them at the same level as in china. At > least in 1985 they got some of the basics in everything the same way > they do in WM med school. People then go into more depth in areas > they are interested in (often this was post gradate). A good > physician must have a good rounded education. And bob yes i think we > should model our schools on China of better yet Korea. This means > good biomedical basic training as well as TCM. I think we need a > minimum of real full time 4 year training. That means 8 hr a day of > classes with real demands on extra self study. That means getting rid > of students that are not passing yearly exams, etc. Basic training as > nothing to do with mastering anything (and medical schools is basic > training). It has to do with minimum levels of competency in areas > which are decided to be of value. Learning and being exposed to only > one area just produces dogmatic robots that are not critical thinkers > as is so evident in this profession. If all you have >> > is a hammer everybody looks like a nail. >> > >> > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 I urge the creation of Boards that would offer standardization and certification in each of the fields. I would not leave that up to our government but our profession. The outline, structure and organization, is the easy part. All we (me, the little guy) needs is Attila the Hun to settle all the ego's. Ed Kasper LAc Santa Cruz, CA. Message: 12 Tue, 14 Dec 2004 22:17:45 -0000 " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 Re: re:identity crisis Alon, In my experience, Chinese yi-sheng graduate from one of three divisions within their CM colleges: 1) acupuncture-tuina, 2) internal medicine, 3) pharmacology. Even within the acupuncture division, acupuncturists learn acupuncture and tuina practitioners learn tuina. They do not learn or practice both and do not receive a diploma in both. Similarly, internal medicine practitioners do not learn enough acupuncture to practice it. Each learns only enough of the other's modality to make knowledgable referrals and do some emergency treatment if absolutely necessary. You, on the other hand, are saying we all need to be trained in all of it. So what you are saying is that we should be jack of all trades but master of none. As I see it, one of the big problems that we currently have in our American CM educational system is that we are asking adult learners to study and master three different modalities (acupuncture, tuina, and Chinese herbal medicine) in an abbreviated length of time, from questionable teachers, with insufficient clinical training, in translation with questionable standards, and less brain cells and time. If full-time Chinese students studying for 4 years in their own language beginning at 18-19 years of age, from teachers who teach in their own language, and who do internships in real hospitals under experienced mentors are not asked to do this, why should we? Do we know something that thousands of professional Chinese teachers and academic administrators do not? I strongly object to this insistence on the part of some Westerners that we should study and do it all. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 Dear Mike, The only reasons I could imagine why graduates would not live up to their expectations would be that they don't know how to market themselves, or locate themselves strategically. I can't imagine any other reason (unless they are inept!). As far as school closings, don't you think that this is a classic example of the stronger programs surviving and flourishing. Again, as schools become sophisticated and saavy, they will succeed in attracting more patients to their clinics, better professors to their faculties, and, of course, the bottom line, more qualified students to their programs. As far as insurance companies go, they are EXTREMELY sensitive to their client base. Don't you think that if enough individuals and groups request coverage for Acupuncture and Oriental medicine, that the pendulum will again swing our way. How was it that we became primary care providers for Worker's comp in California (though we aren't any more)? It's all from lobbying the companies. As they keep hearing that their patients get well faster and cheaper from us, you don't think they will blink, in spite of the MDs pressuring them? Yehuda Yehuda, Not to burst your bubble but many graduates do not make it as professionals after 5 years and there have been many school closings of recent years (19). Add to this a declining recognition by insurance companies and this is a major concern. The insurance industry is looking to hold onto its medical brethren at any cost, which means letting go of more cost effective alternatives. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Yehuda L Frischman < > > >Re: re:identity crisis >Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:29:41 -0800 > > >Bob, > >We live during a time of change and evolution. Though, as we have >discussed, very few in America practiced more than acupuncture during the >80s and early 90s, today, the obligatory and requisite course of study >for students includes pretty extensive knowledge of Herbal medicine, and >one token course in tuina, taiji/qi gong, and shi liao (diet therapy). >Though agreed, the level, relative intensity, and volume of clinical >patient load that today's student faces is significantly inferior to the >student in the PRC, still, (and I have heard this from more than one of >my Chinese teachers) the English program and texts we use for herbs are >equivalent and at times superior to what the Chinese language programs, >at least in America teach. That speaks well for the didactic end of our >education, at least in herbs. > >You are correct that the dabbling we received in tuina, taiji/qi gong and >shi liao is embarrassingly inadequate, if we are to practice them, but >that is, I feel, the key question: what do we need to be successful >clinicians? By taking introductory classes in the above three, and by >taking appropriate CEU courses to supplement our education, we have the >opportunity to expand the breadth of our education. Furthermore, I >think you are mistaken when you contend that our practitioners are Jacks >of all trades but masters of none. You are comparing apples and oranges. > The environment, in the PRC, where there are the opportunities for >specialization has resulted from generations of tradition, and massive >numbers of patients available. This will not, for the foreseeable >centuries be the case here in America. > >Granted our system of education is young and immature. But I think that >it will continue to improve as the quality of texts improve and the >requirement for clinical experience increase. > >Meanwhile, the reputation of TCM continues to grow daily, practices are >increasingly busy, schools continue to grow in enrollment as the general >population sees results, and the amount of malpractice claims remain >negligible. > >I think that that is a pretty amazing state for our medicine to be in, >just 35 years after its introduction to these shores. > >Sincerely, > >Yehuda > > > >Alon, > >In my experience, Chinese yi-sheng graduate from one of three >divisions within their CM colleges: 1) acupuncture-tuina, 2) internal >medicine, 3) pharmacology. Even within the acupuncture division, >acupuncturists learn acupuncture and tuina practitioners learn tuina. >They do not learn or practice both and do not receive a diploma in >both. Similarly, internal medicine practitioners do not learn enough >acupuncture to practice it. Each learns only enough of the other's >modality to make knowledgable referrals and do some emergency >treatment if absolutely necessary. > >You, on the other hand, are saying we all need to be trained in all of >it. So what you are saying is that we should be jack of all trades but >master of none. As I see it, one of the big problems that we currently >have in our American CM educational system is that we are asking adult >learners to study and master three different modalities (acupuncture, >tuina, and Chinese herbal medicine) in an abbreviated length of time, >from questionable teachers, with insufficient clinical training, in >translation with questionable standards, and less brain cells and >time. If full-time Chinese students studying for 4 years in their own >language beginning at 18-19 years of age, from teachers who teach in >their own language, and who do internships in real hospitals under >experienced mentors are not asked to do this, why should we? Do we >know something that thousands of professional Chinese teachers and >academic administrators do not? > >I strongly object to this insistence on the part of some Westerners >that we should study and do it all. > >Bob > " When you see someone doing something wrong, realize that it was brought before you because you did something similar. Therefore, instead of judging him, judge yourself. " The Baal Shem Tov Hakodesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 While ego can certainly be a stumbling block, I think that people are simply voicing their concerns over things that matter to them. We have had good discourse on this and other issues on this forum. Thanks Todd for offerring this to us. People see things through their own lens of experience and understanding. What we need to be able to do is to offer information that can help to unite us all. We need to list the concerns, as well as the possible solutions and repercussions of such actions. That way we can anticipate consequences of said action. Hope this make sense to you all. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Ed Kasper LAc " <eddy > > > RE: identity crisis >Wed, 15 Dec 2004 22:28:31 -0800 > >I urge the creation of Boards that would offer standardization and >certification in each of the fields. I would not leave that up to our >government but our profession. The outline, structure and organization, is >the easy part. All we (me, the little guy) needs is Attila the Hun to >settle >all the ego's. > >Ed Kasper LAc Santa Cruz, CA. > > >Message: 12 > Tue, 14 Dec 2004 22:17:45 -0000 > " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 >Re: re:identity crisis > > >Alon, > >In my experience, Chinese yi-sheng graduate from one of three >divisions within their CM colleges: 1) acupuncture-tuina, 2) internal >medicine, 3) pharmacology. Even within the acupuncture division, >acupuncturists learn acupuncture and tuina practitioners learn tuina. >They do not learn or practice both and do not receive a diploma in >both. Similarly, internal medicine practitioners do not learn enough >acupuncture to practice it. Each learns only enough of the other's >modality to make knowledgable referrals and do some emergency >treatment if absolutely necessary. > >You, on the other hand, are saying we all need to be trained in all of >it. So what you are saying is that we should be jack of all trades but >master of none. As I see it, one of the big problems that we currently >have in our American CM educational system is that we are asking adult >learners to study and master three different modalities (acupuncture, >tuina, and Chinese herbal medicine) in an abbreviated length of time, >from questionable teachers, with insufficient clinical training, in >translation with questionable standards, and less brain cells and >time. If full-time Chinese students studying for 4 years in their own >language beginning at 18-19 years of age, from teachers who teach in >their own language, and who do internships in real hospitals under >experienced mentors are not asked to do this, why should we? Do we >know something that thousands of professional Chinese teachers and >academic administrators do not? > >I strongly object to this insistence on the part of some Westerners >that we should study and do it all. > >Bob > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 " Meanwhile, the reputation of TCM continues to grow daily, practices are increasingly busy, schools continue to grow in enrollment as the general population sees results, and the amount of malpractice claims remain negligible. " IMHO, this is only because the practice of acupuncture is not dependent on Chinese medical theory and diagnosis. But we've been over this ground before. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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