Cancer, parasites and clinical success

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill,

 

I'm not saying that your point-of-view is right or wrong. I can't

really make any comments as moderator. All I can do is try my best

to hold by the group's rules. They are set there to guide

discussions along. Please bear in mind that these discussions are

for TCM and not any other kind of medical intervention. Therefore,

without being bias to you or any one else, your treatment

intervention doesn't fall into that category, unless of course you

want to discuss the TCM use of the treatment you mentioned, via the

active herbal ingredient.

 

There is a lot of heated discussion on this thread, but no real

flaming as yet. Of course everyone has different ideas of what

constitutes flaming and it's left up to me to define that. I don't

feel it has occurred thus far.

 

Attilio

 

" William Brown " <aqupoint@r...> wrote:

> Attilio: I don't mean to break any rules here. I was asked where

further information could be found. This, of course is not on

Medline. This is too new to be on it. Unable to fund a study large

enough to make a difference, I referred the group to a Practioner

that has written 3 books. One can link through the site, if one

takes a minute and doesn't discount the whole thing because it is

not COMMON thought. It is much easier to just go along with the

crowd on these things and not bring up something with controversy. I

am not trying to promote myself here either , but thought this may

be a site that would be open to ideas that work. I have patients

that are cancer free using this- as well as treatment in my clinic.

What do I do- just keep my mouth closed and follow the herd? Some of

the responses here have been intentionally insulting and that would

seem to qualify as flaming a member to me! Have none of your members

been successful with cancer patients? I know some that have. This is

why I see it as a possibility for TCM to shine here. What I seem to

find is the same old attitude I see in Western Medicine.

>

>

> > Pierre Jean wrote:

> > > I think the real parasites are the bogus or incompetent natural

> > > therapists who exploit shamelessly vulnerable, often

desperate

> > > patients ...

> Pierre: I will show this to my patients that used to have cancer.

Why someone would jump to this conclusion is beyond me and fits in

my definition of a flame.

> To whoever stated that the parasites come after the fact- would it

not be reasonable to rid the body of them anyway- no matter what you

think? Would you not think you would see improvement in allowing the

body to recover without them?

>

> I need not continue on this subject if it is too contraversial for

the group and will end the subject here. My email is aqupoint@r...

if any of you want to flame me directly so I can respond directly.

Bill

> -

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Friday, March 05, 2004 10:39 PM

> Re: Cancer, parasites and clinical success

>

>

>

> Advertising of yourself and your clinic no matter who it is, is

> spam. Therefore stating Dr Clark's website goes against the

group's

> rules as it doesn't really provide any (evidence based)

information

> other can business details.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dr.K!

 

I graduated from the Florida Institute of Traditional in

1998, when the school was at its peak. This school was considered very

classical Chinese in philosophy, yet we studied a *lot* of Western Medicine

and we had to pass tests on it. I don't think our profession should be

immune to progress, wherever the progress comes from.

 

There is a fine line always between practice and promotion. I hope we can

be a little flexible and uh, open-minded.

 

At 12:26 PM 3/6/2004, you wrote:

>On WM labels in TCM usage:

>

>Parasite, saprophytes, commensals

>Symbiosis on a sacrificial stage

>

>One however wonders at TCM when it apes;

>There were no microscopes in Huang Di's Age.

>

>Dr. Holmes Keikobad

>MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

>www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health

>professionals

>

>

>

>

>Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious,

>spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

>To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none,

>visit the groups' homepage:

>Chinese Medicine/ click 'edit my

>membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

>

>To send an email to

><Chinese Medicine- > from the email

>account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still

>recieve messages for a few days.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi PJ!

 

It is *very* problematical that Dr. Hulda Clark does not follow the

standard research and reporting methods. It appears, however, that most of

her methods will do no harm, particularly in the light of the fact that the

patients she sees are on their last chance no matter what, if she " cures "

them - even by psychological suggestion, it is ok. Eventually other

researchers will test her methods in a more controlled setting and produce

reports in a more standard format. I am looking forward to the Clark

methods being legitimately researched and honestly reported.

 

I am from the US - Sarasota, Florida. You can easily pay $22 here for juice

and biscuits. On the other hand, you can get it for a couple of bucks at

the McDonalds, and today you could win a million just by going in there (I

think I will!). I see patients for $32 or less, but others charge much

more. Some doctors want to make a lot of money by seeing a few patients and

charging a lot, others are willing to see more patients hoping to prosper

on the volume. Everybody has to make a living.

 

I have patients sometime complain about *my* rates. The same patients will

spend $500 for lunch with a couple of friends. People are funny about money.

 

At 04:27 PM 3/6/2004, you wrote:<snip>

>I maintain that Hulda Clark's theory does not make sense, and that her

>credentials are doubtful.<snip>

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Hello Pete,

 

I think you are missing the ethical issue here: there is a a big

difference between earning a good living and taking money under false

pretences

The person I was talking about was taking money under false pretences,

and as far as charging $22 for an orange juice and two biscuits, we are

in Surrey, Uk here, not in Las Vegas! for this country, this is

definitely out of order.

Back to Hulda Clark: I must pass on the information to the Royal

Marsden Hospital, one of the leading cancer research centre in Europe.

I am sure that all those brilliant doctors who work often 12 hours a

day and are desperate to save their patient's lives will be keen to

learn of such a miracle cure were you can simply zap pathogens and

parasites with a simple electrical devices, and treat all cancer with a

cheap herbal tincture.

They will spend considerable time kicking their own or each other's ass

for not having thought of it earlier.

I also expect a letter from the prime minister and a medal from the

Queen for passing on vital information that will save millions of lives

and save zillions of the tax payer money.

 

Sincerely pissed off by an overdose of bullshit

 

PJ

 

 

On Sunday, March 7, 2004, at 06:15 am, Pete Theisen wrote:

 

> Hi PJ!

>

> It is *very* problematical that Dr. Hulda Clark does not follow the

> standard research and reporting methods. It appears, however, that

> most of

> her methods will do no harm, particularly in the light of the fact

> that the

> patients she sees are on their last chance no matter what, if she

> " cures "

> them - even by psychological suggestion, it is ok. Eventually other

> researchers will test her methods in a more controlled setting and

> produce

> reports in a more standard format. I am looking forward to the Clark

> methods being legitimately researched and honestly reported.

>

> I am from the US - Sarasota, Florida. You can easily pay $22 here for

> juice

> and biscuits. On the other hand, you can get it for a couple of bucks

> at

> the McDonalds, and today you could win a million just by going in

> there (I

> think I will!). I see patients for $32 or less, but others charge much

> more. Some doctors want to make a lot of money by seeing a few

> patients and

> charging a lot, others are willing to see more patients hoping to

> prosper

> on the volume. Everybody has to make a living.

>

> I have patients sometime complain about *my* rates. The same patients

> will

> spend $500 for lunch with a couple of friends. People are funny about

> money.

>

> At 04:27 PM 3/6/2004, you wrote:<snip>

> >I maintain that Hulda Clark's theory  does not make sense, and that

> her

> >credentials are doubtful.<snip>

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete 

>

>

>

> Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear,

> religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

> To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or

> none, visit the groupsí homepage:

> Chinese Medicine/ click

> ëedit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

>

> To send an email to

> <Chinese Medicine- > from the

> email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but

> will still recieve messages for a few days.

>

>

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Pierre!

 

If I were missing the ethical issue would I be the most cost effective

provider in town? It is very tricky to stand in judgement of other people's

ethics. Was the woman arrested? Taking money under " false pretenses " , if

that is what she did, is a crime even in the UK, is it not?

 

Hold your horses on Hulda Clark. If her " cancer cure " is a fraud, research

would establish that would it not? I get the impression that you are trying

to bury the idea with ridicule *before* it is properly investigated. Why

would you want to do that? Is there a shortage of university classes to do

the studies? Not around here. In the US students are looking for projects.

 

I am in favor of checking out everything, even things that seem crazy. If

they are really crazy, the research can put them to rest. If they are

valuable, all of humanity is the richer for our open-mindedness.

 

At 06:05 AM 3/7/2004, you wrote:

>Hello Pete,

>

>I think you are missing the ethical issue here: there is a a big

>difference between earning a good living and taking money under false

>pretences

>The person I was talking about was taking money under false pretences,

>and as far as charging $22 for an orange juice and two biscuits, we are

>in Surrey, Uk here, not in Las Vegas! for this country, this is

>definitely out of order.

>Back to Hulda Clark: I must pass on the information to the Royal

>Marsden Hospital, one of the leading cancer research centre in Europe.

>I am sure that all those brilliant doctors who work often 12 hours a

>day and are desperate to save their patient's lives will be keen to

>learn of such a miracle cure were you can simply zap pathogens and

>parasites with a simple electrical devices, and treat all cancer with a

>cheap herbal tincture.

>They will spend considerable time kicking their own or each other's ass

>for not having thought of it earlier.

>I also expect a letter from the prime minister and a medal from the

>Queen for passing on vital information that will save millions of lives

>and save zillions of the tax payer money.

>

>Sincerely pissed off by an overdose of bullshit

>

>PJ

>

>

>On Sunday, March 7, 2004, at 06:15 am, Pete Theisen wrote:

>

> > Hi PJ!

> >

> > It is *very* problematical that Dr. Hulda Clark does not follow the

> > standard research and reporting methods. It appears, however, that

> > most of

> > her methods will do no harm, particularly in the light of the fact

> > that the

> > patients she sees are on their last chance no matter what, if she

> > " cures "

> > them - even by psychological suggestion, it is ok. Eventually other

> > researchers will test her methods in a more controlled setting and

> > produce

> > reports in a more standard format. I am looking forward to the Clark

> > methods being legitimately researched and honestly reported.

> >

> > I am from the US - Sarasota, Florida. You can easily pay $22 here for

> > juice

> > and biscuits. On the other hand, you can get it for a couple of bucks

> > at

> > the McDonalds, and today you could win a million just by going in

> > there (I

> > think I will!). I see patients for $32 or less, but others charge much

> > more. Some doctors want to make a lot of money by seeing a few

> > patients and

> > charging a lot, others are willing to see more patients hoping to

> > prosper

> > on the volume. Everybody has to make a living.

> >

> > I have patients sometime complain about *my* rates. The same patients

> > will

> > spend $500 for lunch with a couple of friends. People are funny about

> > money.

> >

> > At 04:27 PM 3/6/2004, you wrote:<snip>

> > >I maintain that Hulda Clark's theory does not make sense, and that

> > her

> > >credentials are doubtful.<snip>

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Pete

> >

> >

> >

> > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear,

> > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear.

> >

> > To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or

> > none, visit the groupsí homepage:

> > Chinese Medicine/ click

> > ëedit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

> >

> > To send an email to

> > <Chinese Medicine- > from the

> > email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but

> > will still recieve messages for a few days.

> >

> >

> >

><image.tiff>

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi PJ,

 

I see your point-of-view but please don't swear on this list. The

English are also famous for their good manners and stiff upper lip,

lets show some here.

 

Attilio

 

Pierre jean cousin <heretix@b...> wrote:

> Hello Pete,

>

> I think you are missing the ethical issue here: there is a a big

> difference between earning a good living and taking money under

false

> pretences

> The person I was talking about was taking money under false

pretences,

> and as far as charging $22 for an orange juice and two biscuits,

we are

> in Surrey, Uk here, not in Las Vegas! for this country, this is

> definitely out of order.

> Back to Hulda Clark: I must pass on the information to the Royal

> Marsden Hospital, one of the leading cancer research centre in

Europe.

> I am sure that all those brilliant doctors who work often 12

hours a

> day and are desperate to save their patient's lives will be keen

to

> learn of such a miracle cure were you can simply zap pathogens and

> parasites with a simple electrical devices, and treat all cancer

with a

> cheap herbal tincture.

> They will spend considerable time kicking their own or each

other's ass

> for not having thought of it earlier.

> I also expect a letter from the prime minister and a medal from

the

> Queen for passing on vital information that will save millions of

lives

> and save zillions of the tax payer money.

>

> Sincerely pissed off by an overdose of bullshit

>

> PJ

>

>

> On Sunday, March 7, 2004, at 06:15 am, Pete Theisen wrote:

>

> > Hi PJ!

> >

> > It is *very* problematical that Dr. Hulda Clark does not follow

the

> > standard research and reporting methods. It appears, however,

that

> > most of

> > her methods will do no harm, particularly in the light of the

fact

> > that the

> > patients she sees are on their last chance no matter what, if

she

> > " cures "

> > them - even by psychological suggestion, it is ok. Eventually

other

> > researchers will test her methods in a more controlled setting

and

> > produce

> > reports in a more standard format. I am looking forward to the

Clark

> > methods being legitimately researched and honestly reported.

> >

> > I am from the US - Sarasota, Florida. You can easily pay $22

here for

> > juice

> > and biscuits. On the other hand, you can get it for a couple of

bucks

> > at

> > the McDonalds, and today you could win a million just by going

in

> > there (I

> > think I will!). I see patients for $32 or less, but others

charge much

> > more. Some doctors want to make a lot of money by seeing a few

> > patients and

> > charging a lot, others are willing to see more patients hoping

to

> > prosper

> > on the volume. Everybody has to make a living.

> >

> > I have patients sometime complain about *my* rates. The same

patients

> > will

> > spend $500 for lunch with a couple of friends. People are funny

about

> > money.

> >

> > At 04:27 PM 3/6/2004, you wrote:<snip>

> > >I maintain that Hulda Clark's theory  does not make sense, and

that

> > her

> > >credentials are doubtful.<snip>

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Pete 

> >

> >

> >

> > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear,

> > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear.

> >

> > To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest

or

> > none, visit the groupsí homepage:

> > Chinese Medicine/

click

> > ëedit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust

accordingly.

> >

> > To send an email to

> > <Chinese Medicine- > from

the

> > email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically

but

> > will still recieve messages for a few days.

> >

> >

> >

> <image.tiff>

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hello Attilio, I do not think mentioning bullshit constitute a swear

word, even if it is disparaging.

As far as english stiff upper lip... not my problem, I am french.

God shave (pardon) save the queen

And best regards to you

 

 

PJ

On Sunday, March 7, 2004, at 01:18 pm, wrote:

 

> Hi PJ,

>

> I see your point-of-view but please don't swear on this list. The

> English are also famous for their good manners and stiff upper lip,

> lets show some here.

>

> Attilio

>

> Pierre jean cousin <heretix@b...> wrote:

> > Hello Pete,

> >

> > I think you are missing the ethical issue here: there is a a big

> > difference between earning a good living and taking money under

> false

> > pretences

> > The person I was talking about was taking money under false

> pretences,

> > and as far as charging $22 for an orange juice and two biscuits,

> we are

> > in Surrey, Uk here, not in Las Vegas! for this country, this is

> > definitely out of order.

> > Back to Hulda Clark: I must pass on the information to the Royal

> > Marsden Hospital, one of the leading cancer research centre in

> Europe.

> > I am sure that  all those brilliant doctors who work often 12

> hours a

> > day and are desperate to save their patient's lives will be keen

> to

> > learn of such a miracle cure were you can simply zap pathogens and

> > parasites with a simple electrical devices, and treat all cancer

> with a

> > cheap herbal tincture.

> > They will spend considerable time kicking their own or each

> other's ass

> > for not having thought of it earlier.

> > I also expect a letter from the prime minister and a medal from

> the

> > Queen for passing on vital information that will save millions of

> lives

> > and save zillions of the tax payer money.

> >

> > Sincerely pissed off by an overdose of bullshit

> >

> > PJ

> >

> >

> > On Sunday, March 7, 2004, at 06:15  am, Pete Theisen wrote:

> >

> > > Hi PJ!

> > >

> > > It is *very* problematical that Dr. Hulda Clark does not follow

> the

> > > standard research and reporting methods. It appears, however,

> that

> > > most of

> > > her methods will do no harm, particularly in the light of the

> fact

> > > that the

> > > patients she sees are on their last chance no matter what, if

> she

> > > " cures "

> > > them - even by psychological suggestion, it is ok. Eventually

> other

> > > researchers will test her methods in a more controlled setting

> and

> > > produce

> > > reports in a more standard format. I am looking forward to the

> Clark

> > > methods being legitimately researched and honestly reported.

> > >

> > > I am from the US - Sarasota, Florida. You can easily pay $22

> here for

> > > juice

> > > and biscuits. On the other hand, you can get it for a couple of

> bucks

> > > at

> > > the McDonalds, and today you could win a million just by going

> in

> > > there (I

> > > think I will!). I see patients for $32 or less, but others

> charge much

> > > more. Some doctors want to make a lot of money by seeing a few

> > > patients and

> > > charging a lot, others are willing to see more patients hoping

> to

> > > prosper

> > > on the volume. Everybody has to make a living.

> > >

> > > I have patients sometime complain about *my* rates. The same

> patients

> > > will

> > > spend $500 for lunch with a couple of friends. People are funny

> about

> > > money.

> > >

> > > At 04:27 PM 3/6/2004, you wrote:<snip>

> > > >I maintain that Hulda Clark's theory  does not make sense, and

> that

> > > her

> > > >credentials are doubtful.<snip>

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > Pete 

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear,

> > > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear.

> > >

> > > To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest

> or

> > > none, visit the groupsí homepage:

> > > Chinese Medicine/

> click

> > > ëedit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust

> accordingly.

> > >

> > > To send an email to

> > > <Chinese Medicine- > from

> the

> > > email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically

> but

> > > will still recieve messages for a few days.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > <image.tiff>

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine wrote :

 

> Re: Cancer, parasites and clinical success

 

This thread has gone way off the topic of TCM. Personally, I'm tired of

having to sift through it. Can we please take this off list so that my

mailbox can once again receive TCM related posts? Thanks.

 

 

Judy Saxe, L.Ac.

Qing Ting Acupuncture LLC

Denver, Colorado

(303) 964-1996

http://www.QingTingAcupuncture.com

[Guest guest]

You sarcasm is not only rude, but given that you used it in defense of a

system that consistently chooses dollars over life is fairly silly.

Lighten up. You may be fairly surprised at what the system you so defend

really does in the name of progress.

 

Chris

 

In a message dated 3/7/2004 6:08:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,

heretix writes:

They will spend considerable time kicking their own or each other's ass

for not having thought of it earlier.

I also expect a letter from the prime minister and a medal from the

Queen for passing on vital information that will save millions of lives

and save zillions of the tax payer money.

 

Sincerely pissed off by an overdose of bullshit

 

PJ

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I agree with Judy, please take it off-list. Unless you want to

continue discussing the TCM aspect of cancers.

 

Attilio

 

Judy Saxe <jsaxe@q...> wrote:

> Chinese Medicine wrote :

>

> > Re: Cancer, parasites and clinical success

>

> This thread has gone way off the topic of TCM. Personally, I'm

tired of

> having to sift through it. Can we please take this off list so

that my

> mailbox can once again receive TCM related posts? Thanks.

>

>

> Judy Saxe, L.Ac.

> Qing Ting Acupuncture LLC

> Denver, Colorado

> (303) 964-1996

> http://www.QingTingAcupuncture.com

[Guest guest]

Hello Judy, you are right, this thread has gone long enough, but on the

other hand, these issues are part of a TCM practitionner everyday's

life, so they should not be ignored, and it is useful to discuss them.

Enough said.

 

Regards,

 

PJ

On Sunday, March 7, 2004, at 05:37 pm, Judy Saxe wrote:

 

> Chinese Medicine wrote :

>

> > Re: Cancer, parasites and clinical success

>

> This thread has gone way off the topic of TCM.  Personally, I'm tired

> of

> having to sift through it.  Can we please take this off list so that my

> mailbox can once again receive TCM related posts?  Thanks.

>

>

> Judy Saxe, L.Ac.

> Qing Ting Acupuncture LLC

> Denver, Colorado

> (303) 964-1996

> http://www.QingTingAcupuncture.com

>

>

>

> Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear,

> religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

> To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or

> none, visit the groups‚ homepage:

> Chinese Medicine/ click

> Œedit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

>

> To send an email to

> <Chinese Medicine- > from the

> email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but

> will still recieve messages for a few days.

>

>

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Some of you may not be interested in the advancements made in treating cancer

with TCM, but I am. So if anyone would be interested in sharing ANY info on

the treatments on cancer using alternative treatments I am willing to listen, I

have an open mind and will examine all avenues. For the ones who don't want

to hear anymore just click off the e-mail (hint it will have the words cancer

in the heading) Have a great day, Mary Spohn LAc

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Wonder ...

 

Wonder how much of this thread has helped

Ones out there, torn apart by random replication

Of maverick cells turned renegade against their own host?

 

Much like the people in Neroic Rome

The afflicted wait in heated streets and watch

While the Nuovo Healers struggle to match aped labels

Stolen from Orthodoxy to fit the Traditional swatch.

 

A sarcoma does not know itself

And the body which carries it does not care

What healers and stealers name it

As long as they can make it leave from there.

 

It seems the ones who would bring in something new

Have joined the Olde Guard and have added to the stew.

 

Poor fare at the table, for the sick who were never there.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 NCCAOM reviewed CEUS by Video. Economical, S & H and

tax free.