Guest guest Posted May 27, 2000 Report Share Posted May 27, 2000 Yes there is definitely a slippery slope here... But as pointed out something seems to have to be done. Did anyone see that Consumer Report a few months ago on the efficacy of Alternative medicine (American poll). If I remember correctly herbal medicine did not fair well, something like 70% of people were not satisfied and when compared to pharmaceuticals, people were most satisfied with the latter's results (if someone has the report maybe they could double-check the stats).. The question is why? The way I see it, Health Food stores (Employees getting paid $5/hr prescribing herbs for symptoms), self-medicating consumers, low quality herbal products, and of course people's desire for quick results... All of these are problems... AS much as I am for freedom of herb sales, I wonder how these issues are truly influencing the public's view of efficacy of herbs, effecting our profession, and affecting the general health of the people. I do not know if regulating them is the answer, but currently the power of herbs is not being adequately demonstrated to the public. Although it definitely seems strange that we should require a prescription to get herbs, we need some regulation somewhere... I do not know where... obviously if we don't have any we will have problems like china (i.e. the counterfeiting of patents) -Jason herb-t [herb-t] Friday, May 26, 2000 2:53 PM herb regulation Dave I think the issue of AA containing herbs is not so black and white. I've researched the issue of AA induced kidney failure pretty thoroughly and there are now many apparent incidents of this worldwide, most of which do NOT involve drug use or adulteration. However, the amount of AA present, even when consumed over a long period of time, should not have caused this kind of toxicity. The whole matter is really suspect, but the weight of opinion and regulatory action is rapidly building momentum against the use of AA containing herbs. Luckily none of the true culprits is actually used much, if at all, in american TCM. I am not sure we should try and make a public case for the supposed safety of herbs like guang fang ji because they were not even considered that safe traditionally. I am concerned that drawing undue attention to this matter may open a whole pandora's box regarding chinese herb safety in general. In the process of discovering that we cannot justify the safety of guang fuang ji based on modern standards, the same might be found to be true for numerous other herbs. I might be willing to sacrifice guang fang ji to avoid this scenario. I think its more important that non AA herbs like han fang ji and hou po do not get swept up in the AA hysteria, as they did in france, I think it was. I know this is obviously a slippery slope, but it is the " slope " versus the " box " . Another alternative is one I might actually consider supporting. Which is that many chinese herbs should be available only from the offices of licensed practitioners. In personal communications with the FDA, I get the impression that they are willing to work with our profession to maintain our state licensed access to chinese herbs if we join with them to help curtail the sale of such products directly to the general public. After all, none of the cases involving AA toxicity (or ephedra deaths) involved a licensed TCM px and the FDA knows this. But we will just get stomped with the product manufacturers if we just deny the safety issues altogether. Personally, I think most internal self medication, except for self limited ailments, is inherently unsafe, whether drug or herbal. Also, were we to gain something akin to professional prescribing control of our pharmacopeia, then those who needed our products for chronic illness would have to visit us, not self medicate. So, manufacturer advertising would shift to directing consumers to px for alt. health needs instead of to mothernature.com. This may be a bitter pill to swallow for free traders, but worldwide, as natural medicine becomes mainstream, more regulation, not less, seems to be the rule. I think we need to act now to get herb regulations that protect the consumer AND our profession. The pure libertarian stance will backfire on this issue, as the general public fully accepts the need for some regulation of medicines. If we don't help craft these regulations, we will be in a very awkward position. The regulators will regulate the herbs singly and we will see our formulas slowly dismantled under this guise of safety. This is a shame, because we have a great professional safety record. But chinese herbs by themselves do not. The reason they work so well in the hands of an experienced prescriber is their potency in full strength formulae. All myths aside, this same potency has much greater (not lesser) potential to cause side effects when the herbs are misprescribed. We thus need to strongly distance ourselves from those who would indiscriminately market ma huang and eucommia and ginseng to teenage males, etc. This would be a permanent solution to this dilemma, rather than having to fight this battle over every problem herb or incident. I don't even want to give the impression that there is anything similar about what I do and what a health food store clerk does, do you? So why not just cut our losses now and join the establishment for this one? , acuman1@a... wrote: > We need to do a lot more than let the AHPA provide help. We ned to organize > now and work to get the ban halted asap. ------ Old school buds here: http://click./1/4057/9/_/542111/_/959377972/ ------ Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2000 Report Share Posted May 28, 2000 In a message dated 5/26/00 5:54:12 PM, herb-t writes: << Luckily none of the true culprits is actually used much, if at all, in american TCM. >> Akebia, Clematis, Stephania? David Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2000 Report Share Posted May 28, 2000 Jason, The answer is education. Real education. Real education in Chinese herbal medicine requires a long drawn out course of study. That's the way they do it in China where there is widespread use of herbal medicine and widespread results from such use. Ken - Saturday, May 27, 2000 9:51 PM RE: herb regulation > Yes there is definitely a slippery slope here... But as pointed out > something seems to have to be done. Did anyone see that Consumer Report a > few months ago on the efficacy of Alternative medicine (American poll). If > I remember correctly herbal medicine did not fair well, something like 70% > of people were not satisfied and when compared to pharmaceuticals, people > were most satisfied with the latter's results (if someone has the report > maybe they could double-check the stats).. The question is why? The way I > see it, Health Food stores (Employees getting paid $5/hr prescribing herbs > for symptoms), self-medicating consumers, low quality herbal products, and > of course people's desire for quick results... All of these are problems... > AS much as I am for freedom of herb sales, I wonder how these issues are > truly influencing the public's view of efficacy of herbs, effecting our > profession, and affecting the general health of the people. I do not know > if regulating them is the answer, but currently the power of herbs is not > being adequately demonstrated to the public. Although it definitely seems > strange that we should require a prescription to get herbs, we need some > regulation somewhere... I do not know where... obviously if we don't have > any we will have problems like china (i.e. the counterfeiting of patents) > -Jason > > > herb-t [herb-t] > Friday, May 26, 2000 2:53 PM > > herb regulation > > Dave > > I think the issue of AA containing herbs is not so black and white. > I've researched the issue of AA induced kidney failure pretty > thoroughly and there are now many apparent incidents of this > worldwide, > most of which do NOT involve drug use or adulteration. However, the > amount of AA present, even when consumed over a long period of time, > should not have caused this kind of toxicity. The whole matter is > really suspect, but the weight of opinion and regulatory action is > rapidly building momentum against the use of AA containing herbs. > Luckily none of the true culprits is actually used much, if at all, > in > american TCM. > > I am not sure we should try and make a public case for the supposed > safety of herbs like guang fang ji because they were not even > considered that safe traditionally. I am concerned that drawing > undue > attention to this matter may open a whole pandora's box regarding > chinese herb safety in general. In the process of discovering that > we > cannot justify the safety of guang fuang ji based on modern > standards, > the same might be found to be true for numerous other herbs. I might > be willing to sacrifice guang fang ji to avoid this scenario. I > think > its more important that non AA herbs like han fang ji and hou po do > not > get swept up in the AA hysteria, as they did in france, I think it > was. I know this is obviously a slippery slope, but it is the > " slope " > versus the " box " . > > Another alternative is one I might actually consider supporting. > Which > is that many chinese herbs should be available only from the offices > of > licensed practitioners. In personal communications with the FDA, I > get > the impression that they are willing to work with our profession to > maintain our state licensed access to chinese herbs if we join with > them to help curtail the sale of such products directly to the > general > public. After all, none of the cases involving AA toxicity (or > ephedra > deaths) involved a licensed TCM px and the FDA knows this. But we > will > just get stomped with the product manufacturers if we just deny the > safety issues altogether. > > Personally, I think most internal self medication, except for self > limited ailments, is inherently unsafe, whether drug or herbal. > Also, > were we to gain something akin to professional prescribing control of > our pharmacopeia, then those who needed our products for chronic > illness would have to visit us, not self medicate. So, manufacturer > advertising would shift to directing consumers to px for alt. health > needs instead of to mothernature.com. This may be a bitter pill to > swallow for free traders, but worldwide, as natural medicine becomes > mainstream, more regulation, not less, seems to be the rule. > > I think we need to act now to get herb regulations that protect the > consumer AND our profession. The pure libertarian stance will > backfire > on this issue, as the general public fully accepts the need for some > regulation of medicines. If we don't help craft these regulations, > we > will be in a very awkward position. The regulators will regulate the > herbs singly and we will see our formulas slowly dismantled under > this > guise of safety. > > This is a shame, because we have a great professional safety record. > But chinese herbs by themselves do not. The reason they work so well > in > the hands of an experienced prescriber is their potency in full > strength formulae. All myths aside, this same potency has much > greater > (not lesser) potential to cause side effects when the herbs are > misprescribed. We thus need to strongly distance ourselves from > those > who would indiscriminately market ma huang and eucommia and ginseng > to > teenage males, etc. This would be a permanent solution to this > dilemma, rather than having to fight this battle over every problem > herb or incident. I don't even want to give the impression that > there > is anything similar about what I do and what a health food store > clerk > does, do you? So why not just cut our losses now and join the > establishment for this one? > > > , acuman1@a... wrote: > > We need to do a lot more than let the AHPA provide help. We ned to > organize > > now and work to get the ban halted asap. > > > > ------ > Old school buds here: > http://click./1/4057/9/_/542111/_/959377972/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > ------ > Missing old school friends? Find them here: > http://click./1/4055/9/_/542111/_/959489528/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2000 Report Share Posted May 28, 2000 In Portland, where everyone is a self styled herbalist, calling yourself a chinese herbalist is like saying you own a health food store. No one takes you seriously as a medical px unless you mainly do acupuncture. To the public, acupuncture is considered medicine and chinese herbs are treated like OTC drugs or vitamins. No one wants to pay for the time of an herbliast when you can get the advice for free on any street corner. Something is very wrong with this picture. , " " <@o...> wrote: All of these are problems... > AS much as I am for freedom of herb sales, I wonder how these issues are > truly influencing the public's view of efficacy of herbs, effecting our > profession, and affecting the general health of the people. I do not know > if regulating them is the answer, but currently the power of herbs is not > being adequately demonstrated to th Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2000 Report Share Posted May 28, 2000 David, and Everyone, I want to raise two rhetorical questions with respect to the controversy and the looming conflicts, problems etc. associated with herb regulation and scope of practice issues. 1) How has it come about that the subject that constitutes the bulk of Chinese medicine has been effectively omitted from the discipline in the USA up until the present? 2) What steps should be taken to correct this? Ken - <acuman1 Sunday, May 28, 2000 12:20 PM Re: herb regulation > > In a message dated 5/26/00 5:54:12 PM, herb-t writes: > > << Also, > were we to gain something akin to professional prescribing control of > our pharmacopeia, then those who needed our products for chronic > illness would have to visit us, not self medicate. >> > > So why not just cut our losses now and join the > establishment for this one? > > We have herbs included in our practice acts in only a handful of states, and > usually as dietary supplements. In reality at this point, only New Mexico is > safe and that is only due to a law passed in the last 2 months. The FDA is a > Federal agency and not allowed to interfere with state agencies (you are > under the medical board in OR, right?). Put these together with a > pathetically apathetic practitioner base which is " not political " and in 5 > years you may see MD's being the only ones allowed to " prescribe " the > majority of Chinese herbs. But, don't worry, it can't happen to us. > David Molony > > ------ > Old school buds here: > http://click./1/4057/9/_/542111/_/959541664/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2000 Report Share Posted May 28, 2000 the TRUE culprits are several obscure aristolochia species, whose safety CANNOT be documented. I am very concerned, as I stated, that safe and important herbs like stephania, will get caught in this hysteria. To reiterate, I would sacrifice guang fang ji on possibly legtitmate safety grounds, rather than lose a whole bunch of herbs on bogus safety grounds. , acuman1@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 5/26/00 5:54:12 PM, herb-t@s... writes: > > << Luckily none of the true culprits is actually used much, if at all, > in > american TCM. >> > > Akebia, Clematis, Stephania? > > David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2000 Report Share Posted May 28, 2000 Oregon laws grants the right to prescribe " Oriental Pharmacopeia " , which has been defined to be those herbs listed in Chinese materia medica like bensky. , acuman1@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 5/26/00 5:54:12 PM, herb-t@s... writes: > In reality at this point, only New Mexico is > safe and that is only due to a law passed in the last 2 months. This is a misunderstanding of the FDA's power. They can most certainly interfere with the legal sale of a substance under their jurisdiction. Current federal law puts a high burden on the FDA to prove harm before they can regulate a product, which is not unreasonable given our safety record. However, once they have passed this hurdle, their authority supercedes that of state scope of practice laws. For an analogy, a state medical practice act can grant a physician the right to prescribe from the entire US formulary. But if the FDA recalls a specific drug, no doctor in ANY state can legally prescribe it any more. The same would be true if ephedra was banned by the FDA, for example. It would make no difference that we were previously allowed to prescribe it by state authority. That state authority is superceded in this case. That is why I might be inclined to work with the FDA rather than against them to protect our prescribing rights. We need to emphasize that while the substances may have dangers, we are the only ones trained to use them safely and our professional safety record speaks for itself. We really have no professional interest in protecting unfettered public access to internally ingested natural medicines or protecting corporations right to push these products through barely disguised drug claims and other deceptive marketing. Where are we going to stand on this as Professionals with an ethical responsibility to our patients? The FDA is a > Federal agency and not allowed to interfere with state agencies (you are > under the medica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2000 Report Share Posted May 29, 2000 In a message dated 5/29/00 1:20:25 AM, herb-t writes: << We need to emphasize that while the substances may have dangers, we are the only ones trained to use them safely and our professional safety record speaks for itself. We really have no professional interest in protecting unfettered public access to internally ingested natural medicines or protecting corporations right to push these products through barely disguised drug claims and other deceptive marketing. Where are we going to stand on this as Professionals with an ethical responsibility to our patients? >> Agreed. We need to work with the FDA to allow us to use herbs. We will get permission to use the word prescribe in Pennsylvania and get a DEA # sometime in my next lifetime. How do get them in the meantime? We have to slap the FDA's patty for going overboard on inclusiveness of all aris containing herbs via our congresspeople. This is not about rational people making decisions. This is big money politics and heavily programmed people, with a few bright people thrown in to give a appearance of being nice... David Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2000 Report Share Posted May 29, 2000 > << 1) How has it come about that the subject that constitutes > the bulk of Chinese medicine has been effectively omitted from > the discipline in the USA up until the present? > > Acupuncture is " cute " and totally alien to the Western mind, not to mention > that MD's hooked onto it. You don't see this as any sort of commentary on the quality of the education? > > 2) What steps should be taken to correct this? > > Simply, get political and get everyone you have ever taught or worked with > political, and we need it last year or sooner. This is truly just the > beginning of what is coming down the pike. What does it mean to get political? And what do you see coming down the pike? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2000 Report Share Posted May 30, 2000 In a message dated 5/30/00 12:40:58 AM, yulong writes: << 2) What steps should be taken to correct this? > > Simply, get political and get everyone you have ever taught or worked with > political, and we need it last year or sooner. This is truly just the > beginning of what is coming down the pike. What does it mean to get political? And what do you see coming down the pike? >> WRite to congresspeople, join a national organization that has similar views and work as a group (usually, in professions, a representative of that group testifies at hearings held to provide accountability to the public) to make changes. What is coming down the pike is a continued barrage of PR against toxic herbs to where both the FDA and CODEX develop regulations that make it very difficult to use more and more herbal medicines, if not reach the level where they are essentially banned from commerce. We are just coming onto the radar screens of the medical pharmaceutical industrial complex, which is a multi trillion dollar deal. Our profession is in its tender stages right now. Half doctors and half techs. The NIH listens to ND's testimony every time, but you never hear from L AC's. Why? No political and no research skills. No money or staff support to work to get recognized at a national level. Plus, we aren't " doctors " . David Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2000 Report Share Posted May 30, 2000 I agree with this accessment. We have to develop our research skills, upgrade our educational degrees and licensing to doctorates, and organize more effectively with less splintering. > >What is coming down the pike is a continued barrage of PR against toxic herbs >to where both the FDA and CODEX develop regulations that make it very >difficult to use more and more herbal medicines, if not reach the level where >they are essentially banned from commerce. We are just coming onto the radar >screens of the medical pharmaceutical industrial complex, which is a multi >trillion dollar deal. Our profession is in its tender stages right now. Half >doctors and half techs. The NIH listens to ND's testimony every time, but >you never hear from L AC's. Why? No political and no research skills. No >money or staff support to work to get recognized at a national level. Plus, >we aren't " doctors " . >David Molony > >------ >Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers. >http://click./1/4633/9/_/542111/_/959727428/ >------ > >Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2000 Report Share Posted May 30, 2000 On Mon, 29 May 2000 05:16:30 -0000 herb-t writes: >Oregon laws grants the right to prescribe " Oriental Pharmacopeia " , >which has been defined to be those herbs listed in Chinese materia >medica like bensky. > Would that include Peter Holmes? Karen Vaughan CreationsGarden *************************************** Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment. 'People have illness because they do not have love in their life and are not cherished'.- Sun Si Miao ______________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2000 Report Share Posted June 3, 2000 David, Agreed, we don't have the professional, or educational substance to hold our own here, and those who think the answer is only in studying the classic texts, and eschewing modern science, and modern bio-medicine in our studies, and in our schools are seriously deluded. We need to open our eyes and take a good look around, not only at the struggles that the chiropractors, and naturopaths have had in the past, and how they handled them, but also at the international, big money threats shaping up to our basic rights. The travails of the naturpaths at the turn of the century are well known (or should be), but even to this day the ND's have not reached anything near parity with the chiropractors in terms of professional acceptance and universal licensing in the US. And we are no where near either of them professionally, politically, or educationally. The chiropractors, of necessity essentially created political action machines supported by professional giving, and that professional giving was supported by an strong empahsis on business practices and marketing skills in their schools (something we are woefully deficient in), increasing the educational standards of their institutions where, in addition to training in their own unique professional " natural techniques " , they progressively instituted western, anatomical, and biological sciences training equivalent to western physicians, and made sure that they could hold their own in any public, or private discussion with any, and all other medical professionals in the common language of modern medicine, and in terms of presentation and public speaking skills, instituted long range and on going, domestic scientific research programs to validate and substantiate the usefulness and value of their therapeutics, and spent lots and lots of money on lobbyists, and even more on lawyers suing the stuffing out of the AMA, and insurance carriers that would not cover their services, or any other organizations that attempted to restrain their right to practice. We have a lot to learn professionally from these people. Further, the Codex is planning a meeting from the 19th of this month to the 23rd in Berlin, and although they have downplayed their interest and intentions regarding herbs and nutritional supplements in recent years, they have not gone away, and allegedly, this conference (among other things) will deal with the issues of the " harmonization " of national regulations regarding nutritional and herbal supplements (translation: the removal of the rights of the individual to take responsibility,and to exercise freedom of choice in their own health care (and other rights as well) within their own country, through the power of unelected, transnational governmental and non governmental oragnizations). With the process of globalization and internationalization that is taking place, if they succeed in removing herbs and nutrition in Europe (except by prescription by MD's), how long will it be before they come here demanding " compliance " with international law, agreements, and treaties. Where will we be then, as a profession, intently studying the classical methodologies and " ancient scriptures " of chinese herbal medicine, with no other options, whether homeopathics, nutrition, or western herbs, (other of course than acupuncture), and with out the equivalent scientific, professional, and educational status and the high level ($) of political activism necessary when they come to take away some, most, or all of our pharmacopeia? We beat it last time by mobilizing our patients, and through grass roots activism, but that (although absolutely, and critically important) will not be enough by itself in the future with out the professional institutions (money), scientific research (money), highly educated professionals (money and time), and strong political organization(s) (money, money, and more money), and a political activism that leaves our own foolish and self destructive version of the " class struggle " between the " straights & the mixers " out of our basic politics, and focuses instead on our own educational, institutional, and individual growth, development, and survival as professionals, and a profession. Wake up people, we need to put our bickering and petty intolerances behind us,to start make alliances with other groups that have the same vested interests in health care freedom that we do, and work for the freedom of choice in health care for our patients, and for our selves, because the time is far shorter than we realize. Bruce -------------------------------(original post follows)------------ << Subj: Re: herb regulation 05/30/2000 3:57:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time acuman1 Reply-to: <A HREF= " " > @</A> In a message dated 5/30/00 12:40:58 AM, yulong writes: << 2) What steps should be taken to correct this? > > Simply, get political and get everyone you have ever taught or worked with > political, and we need it last year or sooner. This is truly just the > beginning of what is coming down the pike. What does it mean to get political? And what do you see coming down the pike? >> WRite to congresspeople, join a national organization that has similar views and work as a group (usually, in professions, a representative of that group testifies at hearings held to provide accountability to the public) to make changes. What is coming down the pike is a continued barrage of PR against toxic herbs to where both the FDA and CODEX develop regulations that make it very difficult to use more and more herbal medicines, if not reach the level where they are essentially banned from commerce. We are just coming onto the radar screens of the medical pharmaceutical industrial complex, which is a multi trillion dollar deal. Our profession is in its tender stages right now. Half doctors and half techs. The NIH listens to ND's testimony every time, but you never hear from L AC's. Why? No political and no research skills. No money or staff support to work to get recognized at a national level. Plus, we aren't " doctors " . David Molony ------ Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers. http://click./1/4633/9/_/542111/_/959727428/ ------ Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: <sentto-201013-1295-959727427-GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > Received: from rly-ye02.mx.aol.com (rly-ye02.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.199]) by air-ye01.mx.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Tue, 30 May 2000 18:57:52 -0400 Received: from jj. (jj. [208.50.144.82]) by rly-ye02.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 30 May 2000 18:57:37 -0400 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-201013-1295-959727427-GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) Received: from [10.1.10.36] by jj. with NNFMP; 30 May 2000 22:57:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 8891 invoked from network); 30 May 2000 22:56:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 30 May 2000 22:56:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d08.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.40) by mta1 with SMTP; 30 May 2000 22:56:32 -0000 Received: from Acuman1 by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v27.9.) id a.a3.6a3944d (4317) for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 18:56:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <a3.6a3944d.2665a116 X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 147 acuman1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ; contact -owner Delivered-mailing list Precedence: bulk List-Un: <-> Tue, 30 May 2000 18:56:22 EDT Re: herb regulation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2000 Report Share Posted June 3, 2000 Bruce, I don't see any conflict between advocating study of not only the classical but the contemporary Chinese medical literature and the pursuit of objectives such as those you broadly define below. In fact, I would say that a sound reading of both ancient and modern sources is more or less prerequisite for those who seriously intend to take forward positions in the battles you anticipate. One big difference between Chinese medicine and Chiropractic is the presence of a 2,000 year heritage in the former. And I think that at the same time that we recognize we all have a lot to learn from the experience of Chiropractic doctors and others who have gone toe to toe with the big money concerns that animate modern health care, we should bear in mind that we are, for better or worse, custodians of a tradition that has as well a great deal to teach. If we fail to study our own traditions thoroughly, how can we discharge the attendant responsibilities? I do not see that you do your own cause any service by forwarding a polemic which postulates some sort of conflict between these two vitally important zones of action. I for one endorse a major mobilization of resources to effect the kinds of changes to which you aspire. Do you have detailed plans? I would like to learn more about your strategy. Ken > > Agreed, we don't have the professional, or educational substance to hold our > own here, and those who think the answer is only in studying the classic > texts, and eschewing modern science, and modern bio-medicine in our studies, > and in our schools are seriously deluded. > > We need to open our eyes and take a good look around, not only at the > struggles that the chiropractors, and naturopaths have had in the past, and > how they handled them, but also at the international, big money threats > shaping up to our basic rights. > > The travails of the naturpaths at the turn of the century are well known (or > should be), but even to this day the ND's have not reached anything near > parity with the chiropractors in terms of professional acceptance and > universal licensing in the US. > And we are no where near either of them professionally, politically, or > educationally. > > The chiropractors, of necessity essentially created political action machines > supported by professional giving, and that professional giving was supported > by an strong empahsis on business practices and marketing skills in their > schools (something we are woefully deficient in), increasing the educational > standards of their institutions where, in addition to training in their own > unique professional " natural techniques " , they progressively instituted > western, anatomical, and biological sciences training equivalent to western > physicians, and made sure that they could hold their own in any public, or > private discussion with any, and all other medical professionals in the > common language of modern medicine, and in terms of presentation and public > speaking skills, instituted long range and on going, domestic scientific > research programs to validate and substantiate the usefulness and value of > their therapeutics, and spent lots and lots of money on lobbyists, and even > more on lawyers suing the stuffing out of the AMA, and insurance carriers > that would not cover their services, or any other organizations that > attempted to restrain their right to practice. > > We have a lot to learn professionally from these people. > > Further, the Codex is planning a meeting from the 19th of this month to the > 23rd in Berlin, and although they have downplayed their interest and > intentions regarding herbs and nutritional supplements in recent years, they > have not gone away, and allegedly, this conference (among other things) will > deal with the issues of the " harmonization " of national regulations regarding > nutritional and herbal supplements (translation: the removal of the rights of > the individual to take responsibility,and to exercise freedom of choice in > their own health care (and other rights as well) within their own country, > through the power of unelected, transnational governmental and non > governmental oragnizations). > > With the process of globalization and internationalization that is taking > place, if they succeed in removing herbs and nutrition in Europe (except by > prescription by MD's), how long will it be before they come here demanding > " compliance " with international law, agreements, and treaties. > > Where will we be then, as a profession, intently studying the classical > methodologies and " ancient scriptures " of chinese herbal medicine, with no > other options, whether homeopathics, nutrition, or western herbs, (other of > course than acupuncture), and with out the equivalent scientific, > professional, and educational status and the high level ($) of political > activism necessary when they come to take away some, most, or all of our > pharmacopeia? > > We beat it last time by mobilizing our patients, and through grass roots > activism, but that (although absolutely, and critically important) will not > be enough by itself in the future with out the professional institutions > (money), scientific research (money), highly educated professionals (money > and time), and strong political organization(s) (money, money, and more > money), and a political activism that leaves our own foolish and self > destructive version of the " class struggle " between the " straights & the > mixers " out of our basic politics, and focuses instead on our own > educational, institutional, and individual growth, development, and survival > as professionals, and a profession. > > Wake up people, we need to put our bickering and petty intolerances behind > us,to start make alliances with other groups that have the same vested > interests in health care freedom that we do, and work for the freedom of > choice in health care for our patients, and for our selves, because the time > is far shorter than we realize. > > Bruce > > -------------------------------(original post > follows)------------ > << Subj: Re: herb regulation > 05/30/2000 3:57:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time > acuman1 > Reply-to: <A HREF= " " > > @</A> > > > > In a message dated 5/30/00 12:40:58 AM, yulong writes: > > << 2) What steps should be taken to correct this? > > > > Simply, get political and get everyone you have ever taught or worked with > > political, and we need it last year or sooner. This is truly just the > > beginning of what is coming down the pike. > > What does it mean to get political? > And what do you see coming down the pike? >> > > WRite to congresspeople, join a national organization that has similar views > and work as a group (usually, in professions, a representative of that group > testifies at hearings held to provide accountability to the public) to make > changes. > > What is coming down the pike is a continued barrage of PR against toxic > herbs > to where both the FDA and CODEX develop regulations that make it very > difficult to use more and more herbal medicines, if not reach the level > where > they are essentially banned from commerce. We are just coming onto the radar > screens of the medical pharmaceutical industrial complex, which is a multi > trillion dollar deal. Our profession is in its tender stages right now. Half > doctors and half techs. The NIH listens to ND's testimony every time, but > you never hear from L AC's. Why? No political and no research skills. No > money or staff support to work to get recognized at a national level. Plus, > we aren't " doctors " . > David Molony > > ------ > Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers. > http://click./1/4633/9/_/542111/_/959727428/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: > <sentto-201013-1295-959727427-GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > > Received: from rly-ye02.mx.aol.com (rly-ye02.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.199]) > by air-ye01.mx.aol.com (v73.13) with ESMTP; Tue, 30 May 2000 18:57:52 -0400 > Received: from jj. (jj. [208.50.144.82]) by > rly-ye02.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 30 May 2000 18:57:37 -0400 > X-eGroups-Return: > sentto-201013-1295-959727427-GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > Received: from [10.1.10.36] by jj. with NNFMP; 30 May 2000 > 22:57:09 -0000 > Received: (qmail 8891 invoked from network); 30 May 2000 22:56:35 -0000 > Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 30 May 2000 > 22:56:35 -0000 > Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d08.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.40) by mta1 > with SMTP; 30 May 2000 22:56:32 -0000 > Received: from Acuman1 by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v27.9.) id > a.a3.6a3944d (4317) for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 > 18:56:22 -0400 (EDT) > Message-ID: <a3.6a3944d.2665a116 > > X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 147 > acuman1 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Mailing-List: list ; contact > -owner > Delivered-mailing list > Precedence: bulk > List-Un: <-> > Tue, 30 May 2000 18:56:22 EDT > > Re: herb regulation > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >> > > ------ > Best friends, most artistic, class clown Find 'em here: > http://click./1/4054/9/_/542111/_/960029018/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2000 Report Share Posted June 4, 2000 In a message dated 6/3/00 6:44:10 AM, GRCanning writes: << We beat it last time by mobilizing our patients, and through grass roots activism, but that (although absolutely, and critically important) will not be enough by itself in the future with out the professional institutions (money), scientific research (money), highly educated professionals (money and time), and strong political organization(s) (money, money, and more money), and a political activism that leaves our own foolish and self destructive version of the " class struggle " between the " straights & the mixers " out of our basic politics, and focuses instead on our own educational, institutional, and individual growth, development, and survival as professionals, and a profession. >> I personally tithe 10% of my (and my wifes) income, or maybe a little more, towards the future of my profession as a field of medicine, and have for over 10 years. Luckily, I have been earning more as the years go by. I look at it as an investment in my childrens future. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2000 Report Share Posted June 4, 2000 David, Thank God for open minded, thoughtful, non judgemental, and ethical practitioners like you. We need a lot more people like you. All the best, Bruce -----------------------------(original message follows below)--------------------- << Subj: Re: herb regulation 06/04/2000 1:04:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time acuman1 Reply-to: <A HREF= " " > @</A> In a message dated 6/3/00 6:44:10 AM, GRCanning writes: << We beat it last time by mobilizing our patients, and through grass roots activism, but that (although absolutely, and critically important) will not be enough by itself in the future with out the professional institutions (money), scientific research (money), highly educated professionals (money and time), and strong political organization(s) (money, money, and more money), and a political activism that leaves our own foolish and self destructive version of the " class struggle " between the " straights & the mixers " out of our basic politics, and focuses instead on our own educational, institutional, and individual growth, development, and survival as professionals, and a profession. >> I personally tithe 10% of my (and my wifes) income, or maybe a little more, towards the future of my profession as a field of medicine, and have for over 10 years. Luckily, I have been earning more as the years go by. I look at it as an investment in my childrens future. David ------ Failed tests, classes skipped, forgotten locker combinations. Remember the good 'ol days http://click./1/4053/9/_/542111/_/960149032/ ------ Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: <sentto-201013-1463-960149032-GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > Received: from rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (rly-zd04.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.228]) by air-zd05.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sun, 04 Jun 2000 16:04:45 -0400 Received: from mr. (mr. [207.138.41.139]) by rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Sun, 04 Jun 2000 16:04:34 -0400 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-201013-1463-960149032-GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) Received: from [10.1.10.36] by mr. with NNFMP; 04 Jun 2000 20:03:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 4170 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2000 20:03:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Jun 2000 20:03:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo16.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.6) by mta2 with SMTP; 4 Jun 2000 20:03:44 -0000 Received: from Acuman1 by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v27.9.) id a.bc.5ffb24b (8977) for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 16:03:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <bc.5ffb24b.266c101c X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 147 acuman1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ; contact -owner Delivered-mailing list Precedence: bulk List-Un: <-> Sun, 4 Jun 2000 16:03:40 EDT Re: herb regulation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2000 Report Share Posted November 20, 2000 Todd wrote MD's, too, but some states actually do not allow MD's to practice herbal medicine. Do these same states also not allow herbalists from practising ? Heiko Lade Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist 2 Jenkins St. Green Island, Dunedin New Zealand Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012 http://www.lade.com/heiko Email: heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2000 Report Share Posted November 23, 2000 era and without it, the whole country may very well go to hell in our lifetimes (finance that is, not herbs). >>>Very true alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2000 Report Share Posted November 23, 2000 The way to deal with problems from the supplement industry is to only regulate toxic herbs or herbs with serious potential for abuse. Of course we hardly have agreement on what those are. Fu zi and the aristolochias, yes. But ephedra which recently got a clean bill of health? Our materia medicas train us insufficiently in these matters, especially for herbs which have silent cumulative damage or problems from substitute species (especially those which have come into use as substitutes in the recent past). People on this list are better able to point out potential problems than are most acupuncturists. May I also point out that many herbs from Chinese medicine have been in use in western herbalism for years. If these herbs are to be only available for use with the precription of a licensed acupuncturist, there will be serious opposition from trained herbalists from other traditions. Karen Vaughan CreationsGarden *************************************** " Love wholeheartedly, be surprised, give thanks and praise--then you will discover the fullness of your life. " --Brother David Steindl-Rast ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2000 Report Share Posted November 23, 2000 , Karen S Vaughan < creationsgarden@j...> wrote: If these herbs are to be only > available for use with the precription of a licensed acupuncturist, there > will be serious opposition from trained herbalists from other traditions. > not that I ever expect it to happen, but for the sake of argument, I think all licensed healthcare professionals with the legal right to prescribe herbs should be able to prescribe chinese herbs, too. this would include ND's. MD's, too, but some states actually do not allow MD's to practice herbal medicine. While I think pharmacologically based practice is very flawed, it has its place. As for lay herbalists, they are not really in any position to oppose this. They are not licensed to practice medicine and in fact, lay herbalism violates the medical practice acts of all states. In California, for example, our law allows lay herbalism to promote health, but not to treat disease and further, it is expressly illegal for a lay herbalist to claim or represent in any fashion that he or she is " trained, experienced or an expert in the field of ... oriental medicine, or chinese medicine ... or any combination of those words or phrases " . and this law is far more liberal to the lay herbalist than most other states. I agree with Zev that certain herbs should be exempt, but only those few that have long use by laypersons in the US, such as ginseng, licorice, siberian ginseng, ginger and other food and spice herbs sold in grocery stores like lycium, lotus seed, cinnamon, cardamon, etc. I'd probably actually be OK with all tonics and many carminatives and digestives. But herbs that are only used medicinally have no place in the hands of laypeople, no moreso than drugs do. I am sure many of you vehemently disagree with this position. Feel free to respond with counter arguments, but please keep it civil. This topic has gotten out of hand before. thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2000 Report Share Posted November 24, 2000 but not to treat disease and further, >>>We can not treat disease with herbs as well alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2000 Report Share Posted November 27, 2000 > The issue of herb regulation is one with many valid yet conflicting > arguments. By attempting to address the issues involved, the shortcomings > of the professional TCM community's position on this issue would come into > the light and those shortcomings could then be thoughtfully addressed, if > capable people were willing to step forward with adequate persistence and > commitment. I agree we need to confront our shortcomings in order to further our field. If we can not be involved in intelligent debate and reach some sort of consensus within our field , than others will decide our fate for us. How many TCM professionals in the US > were aware of the concerns about aristolocic acid prior to or even three > years after the 1992 events in Belgium? None? How many patent meds were > sold in the US by TCM professionals without their knowing the contents of > that product, i.e. heavy metals, coliforms, or adulterants? How many TCM > practitioners require a C of A with every batch of herbs they order? And > how many even know what target standards would be acceptable in each of the > categories listed on the C of A? And how many are aware that consumerlabs.com found pesticides in samples of chinese herbs that are carcinogenic or toxic to organs and banned in the US? There is much talk about heavy metals and pharmaceutical adulteration and authenticity, but it seems if we are worried about public and our patients' safety, we should also be pushing for organically grown and support a would-be US organic chinese herb farm industry. > There are ways to overcome these shortcomings. Does anyone want to step > forward? Maybe this could be a continuing education course?(herb safety/toxicity and purity, that is) Nicole Hohmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2000 Report Share Posted November 28, 2000 <Do these same states also not allow herbalists from practising ?> Herbalists per se are not licensed to practice in any states in the US. Licensed acupuncturists are not allowed to practice herbalism in many states and not all states license acupuncturists (and only a few license naturopaths). In many states (most with licensing?) acupuncturists are allowed to practice and use herbs under the quaint belief that we are not practicing medicine. Pennsylvaina only permits to see acupuncturists if they have been referred by a MD. Karen Vaughan CreationsGarden *************************************** Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment. " Love wholeheartedly, be surprised, give thanks and praise--then you will discover the fullness of your life. " --Brother David Steindl-Rast ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2000 Report Share Posted November 28, 2000 Licensed acupuncturists are not allowed to practice herbalism in manystates and not all states license acupuncturists >>>Yes but not herbal medicine just as nutritional supplements alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2000 Report Share Posted December 1, 2000 Maybe off the topic, so please respond privately if inappropriate, but.. does anyone have any advice of how to go about getting laws changed in states (like PA, OH) etc... - Karen S Vaughan [creationsgarden] Tuesday, November 28, 2000 4:41 AM Re: herb regulation <Do these same states also not allow herbalists from practising ?> Herbalists per se are not licensed to practice in any states in the US. Licensed acupuncturists are not allowed to practice herbalism in many states and not all states license acupuncturists (and only a few license naturopaths). In many states (most with licensing?) acupuncturists are allowed to practice and use herbs under the quaint belief that we are not practicing medicine. Pennsylvaina only permits to see acupuncturists if they have been referred by a MD. Karen Vaughan CreationsGarden *************************************** Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment. " Love wholeheartedly, be surprised, give thanks and praise--then you will discover the fullness of your life. " --Brother David Steindl-Rast ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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