Herb regulation

May 27, 2000

Yes there is definitely a slippery slope here... But as pointed out

something seems to have to be done. Did anyone see that Consumer Report a

few months ago on the efficacy of Alternative medicine (American poll). If

I remember correctly herbal medicine did not fair well, something like 70%

of people were not satisfied and when compared to pharmaceuticals, people

were most satisfied with the latter's results (if someone has the report

maybe they could double-check the stats).. The question is why? The way I

see it, Health Food stores (Employees getting paid $5/hr prescribing herbs

for symptoms), self-medicating consumers, low quality herbal products, and

of course people's desire for quick results... All of these are problems...

AS much as I am for freedom of herb sales, I wonder how these issues are

truly influencing the public's view of efficacy of herbs, effecting our

profession, and affecting the general health of the people. I do not know

if regulating them is the answer, but currently the power of herbs is not

being adequately demonstrated to the public. Although it definitely seems

strange that we should require a prescription to get herbs, we need some

regulation somewhere... I do not know where... obviously if we don't have

any we will have problems like china (i.e. the counterfeiting of patents)

-Jason

herb-t [herb-t]

Friday, May 26, 2000 2:53 PM

herb regulation

Dave

I think the issue of AA containing herbs is not so black and white.

I've researched the issue of AA induced kidney failure pretty

thoroughly and there are now many apparent incidents of this

worldwide,

most of which do NOT involve drug use or adulteration. However, the

amount of AA present, even when consumed over a long period of time,

should not have caused this kind of toxicity. The whole matter is

really suspect, but the weight of opinion and regulatory action is

rapidly building momentum against the use of AA containing herbs.

Luckily none of the true culprits is actually used much, if at all,

in

american TCM.

I am not sure we should try and make a public case for the supposed

safety of herbs like guang fang ji because they were not even

considered that safe traditionally. I am concerned that drawing

undue

attention to this matter may open a whole pandora's box regarding

chinese herb safety in general. In the process of discovering that

we

cannot justify the safety of guang fuang ji based on modern

standards,

the same might be found to be true for numerous other herbs. I might

be willing to sacrifice guang fang ji to avoid this scenario. I

think

its more important that non AA herbs like han fang ji and hou po do

not

get swept up in the AA hysteria, as they did in france, I think it

was. I know this is obviously a slippery slope, but it is the

" slope "

versus the " box " .

Another alternative is one I might actually consider supporting.

Which

is that many chinese herbs should be available only from the offices

of

licensed practitioners. In personal communications with the FDA, I

get

the impression that they are willing to work with our profession to

maintain our state licensed access to chinese herbs if we join with

them to help curtail the sale of such products directly to the

general

public. After all, none of the cases involving AA toxicity (or

ephedra

deaths) involved a licensed TCM px and the FDA knows this. But we

will

just get stomped with the product manufacturers if we just deny the

safety issues altogether.

Personally, I think most internal self medication, except for self

limited ailments, is inherently unsafe, whether drug or herbal.

Also,

were we to gain something akin to professional prescribing control of

our pharmacopeia, then those who needed our products for chronic

illness would have to visit us, not self medicate. So, manufacturer

advertising would shift to directing consumers to px for alt. health

needs instead of to mothernature.com. This may be a bitter pill to

swallow for free traders, but worldwide, as natural medicine becomes

mainstream, more regulation, not less, seems to be the rule.

I think we need to act now to get herb regulations that protect the

consumer AND our profession. The pure libertarian stance will

backfire

on this issue, as the general public fully accepts the need for some

regulation of medicines. If we don't help craft these regulations,

we

will be in a very awkward position. The regulators will regulate the

herbs singly and we will see our formulas slowly dismantled under

this

guise of safety.

This is a shame, because we have a great professional safety record.

But chinese herbs by themselves do not. The reason they work so well

in

the hands of an experienced prescriber is their potency in full

strength formulae. All myths aside, this same potency has much

greater

(not lesser) potential to cause side effects when the herbs are

misprescribed. We thus need to strongly distance ourselves from

those

who would indiscriminately market ma huang and eucommia and ginseng

to

teenage males, etc. This would be a permanent solution to this

dilemma, rather than having to fight this battle over every problem

herb or incident. I don't even want to give the impression that

there

is anything similar about what I do and what a health food store

clerk

does, do you? So why not just cut our losses now and join the

establishment for this one?

, acuman1@a... wrote:

> We need to do a lot more than let the AHPA provide help. We ned to

organize

> now and work to get the ban halted asap.

------

Old school buds here:

http://click./1/4057/9/_/542111/_/959377972/

------

Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

May 28, 2000

In a message dated 5/26/00 5:54:12 PM, herb-t writes:

<< Luckily none of the true culprits is actually used much, if at all,

in

american TCM. >>

Akebia, Clematis, Stephania?

David Molony

May 28, 2000

Jason,

The answer is education.

Real education.

Real education in Chinese herbal medicine

requires a long drawn out course of study.

That's the way they do it in China where

there is widespread use of herbal medicine

and widespread results from such use.

Ken

-

Saturday, May 27, 2000 9:51 PM

RE: herb regulation

> Yes there is definitely a slippery slope here... But as pointed out

> something seems to have to be done. Did anyone see that Consumer Report

a

> few months ago on the efficacy of Alternative medicine (American poll).

If

> I remember correctly herbal medicine did not fair well, something like 70%

> of people were not satisfied and when compared to pharmaceuticals, people

> were most satisfied with the latter's results (if someone has the report

> maybe they could double-check the stats).. The question is why? The way I

> see it, Health Food stores (Employees getting paid $5/hr prescribing herbs

> for symptoms), self-medicating consumers, low quality herbal products, and

> of course people's desire for quick results... All of these are

problems...

> AS much as I am for freedom of herb sales, I wonder how these issues are

> truly influencing the public's view of efficacy of herbs, effecting our

> profession, and affecting the general health of the people. I do not know

> if regulating them is the answer, but currently the power of herbs is not

> being adequately demonstrated to the public. Although it definitely seems

> strange that we should require a prescription to get herbs, we need some

> regulation somewhere... I do not know where... obviously if we don't have

> any we will have problems like china (i.e. the counterfeiting of patents)

> -Jason

>

> herb-t [herb-t]

> Friday, May 26, 2000 2:53 PM

>

> herb regulation

>

> Dave

>

> I think the issue of AA containing herbs is not so black and white.

> I've researched the issue of AA induced kidney failure pretty

> thoroughly and there are now many apparent incidents of this

> worldwide,

> most of which do NOT involve drug use or adulteration. However, the

> amount of AA present, even when consumed over a long period of time,

> should not have caused this kind of toxicity. The whole matter is

> really suspect, but the weight of opinion and regulatory action is

> rapidly building momentum against the use of AA containing herbs.

> Luckily none of the true culprits is actually used much, if at all,

> in

> american TCM.

>

> I am not sure we should try and make a public case for the supposed

> safety of herbs like guang fang ji because they were not even

> considered that safe traditionally. I am concerned that drawing

> undue

> attention to this matter may open a whole pandora's box regarding

> chinese herb safety in general. In the process of discovering that

> we

> cannot justify the safety of guang fuang ji based on modern

> standards,

> the same might be found to be true for numerous other herbs. I might

> be willing to sacrifice guang fang ji to avoid this scenario. I

> think

> its more important that non AA herbs like han fang ji and hou po do

> not

> get swept up in the AA hysteria, as they did in france, I think it

> was. I know this is obviously a slippery slope, but it is the

> " slope "

> versus the " box " .

>

> Another alternative is one I might actually consider supporting.

> Which

> is that many chinese herbs should be available only from the offices

> of

> licensed practitioners. In personal communications with the FDA, I

> get

> the impression that they are willing to work with our profession to

> maintain our state licensed access to chinese herbs if we join with

> them to help curtail the sale of such products directly to the

> general

> public. After all, none of the cases involving AA toxicity (or

> ephedra

> deaths) involved a licensed TCM px and the FDA knows this. But we

> will

> just get stomped with the product manufacturers if we just deny the

> safety issues altogether.

>

> Personally, I think most internal self medication, except for self

> limited ailments, is inherently unsafe, whether drug or herbal.

> Also,

> were we to gain something akin to professional prescribing control of

> our pharmacopeia, then those who needed our products for chronic

> illness would have to visit us, not self medicate. So, manufacturer

> advertising would shift to directing consumers to px for alt. health

> needs instead of to mothernature.com. This may be a bitter pill to

> swallow for free traders, but worldwide, as natural medicine becomes

> mainstream, more regulation, not less, seems to be the rule.

>

> I think we need to act now to get herb regulations that protect the

> consumer AND our profession. The pure libertarian stance will

> backfire

> on this issue, as the general public fully accepts the need for some

> regulation of medicines. If we don't help craft these regulations,

> we

> will be in a very awkward position. The regulators will regulate the

> herbs singly and we will see our formulas slowly dismantled under

> this

> guise of safety.

>

> This is a shame, because we have a great professional safety record.

> But chinese herbs by themselves do not. The reason they work so well

> in

> the hands of an experienced prescriber is their potency in full

> strength formulae. All myths aside, this same potency has much

> greater

> (not lesser) potential to cause side effects when the herbs are

> misprescribed. We thus need to strongly distance ourselves from

> those

> who would indiscriminately market ma huang and eucommia and ginseng

> to

> teenage males, etc. This would be a permanent solution to this

> dilemma, rather than having to fight this battle over every problem

> herb or incident. I don't even want to give the impression that

> there

> is anything similar about what I do and what a health food store

> clerk

> does, do you? So why not just cut our losses now and join the

> establishment for this one?

>

> , acuman1@a... wrote:

> > We need to do a lot more than let the AHPA provide help. We ned to

> organize

> > now and work to get the ban halted asap.

>

> ------

> Old school buds here:

> http://click./1/4057/9/_/542111/_/959377972/

> ------

>

> Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

>

> ------

> Missing old school friends? Find them here:

> http://click./1/4055/9/_/542111/_/959489528/

> ------

>

> Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

>

May 28, 2000

In Portland, where everyone is a self styled herbalist, calling

yourself a chinese herbalist is like saying you own a health food

store. No one takes you seriously as a medical px unless you mainly

do acupuncture. To the public, acupuncture is considered medicine

and

chinese herbs are treated like OTC drugs or vitamins. No one wants

to

pay for the time of an herbliast when you can get the advice for free

on any street corner. Something is very wrong with this picture.

, " "

<@o...>

wrote:

All of these are problems...

> AS much as I am for freedom of herb sales, I wonder how these

issues

are

> truly influencing the public's view of efficacy of herbs, effecting

our

> profession, and affecting the general health of the people. I do

not know

> if regulating them is the answer, but currently the power of herbs

is not

> being adequately demonstrated to th

May 28, 2000

David, and Everyone,

I want to raise two rhetorical questions with respect

to the controversy and the looming conflicts, problems

etc. associated with herb regulation and scope of

practice issues.

1) How has it come about that the subject that constitutes

the bulk of Chinese medicine has been effectively omitted from

the discipline in the USA up until the present?

2) What steps should be taken to correct this?

Ken

-

<acuman1

Sunday, May 28, 2000 12:20 PM

Re: herb regulation

>

> In a message dated 5/26/00 5:54:12 PM, herb-t writes:

>

> << Also,

> were we to gain something akin to professional prescribing control of

> our pharmacopeia, then those who needed our products for chronic

> illness would have to visit us, not self medicate. >>

>

> So why not just cut our losses now and join the

> establishment for this one?

>

> We have herbs included in our practice acts in only a handful of states,

and

> usually as dietary supplements. In reality at this point, only New Mexico

is

> safe and that is only due to a law passed in the last 2 months. The FDA is

a

> Federal agency and not allowed to interfere with state agencies (you are

> under the medical board in OR, right?). Put these together with a

> pathetically apathetic practitioner base which is " not political " and in 5

> years you may see MD's being the only ones allowed to " prescribe " the

> majority of Chinese herbs. But, don't worry, it can't happen to us.

> David Molony

>

> ------

> Old school buds here:

> http://click./1/4057/9/_/542111/_/959541664/

> ------

>

> Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

>

May 28, 2000

the TRUE culprits are several obscure aristolochia species, whose

safety CANNOT be documented. I am very concerned, as I stated, that

safe and important herbs like stephania, will get caught in this

hysteria. To reiterate, I would sacrifice guang fang ji on possibly

legtitmate safety grounds, rather than lose a whole bunch of herbs on

bogus safety grounds.

, acuman1@a... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 5/26/00 5:54:12 PM, herb-t@s... writes:

>

> << Luckily none of the true culprits is actually used much, if at

all,

> in

> american TCM. >>

>

> Akebia, Clematis, Stephania?

>

> David

May 28, 2000

Oregon laws grants the right to prescribe " Oriental Pharmacopeia " ,

which has been defined to be those herbs listed in Chinese materia

medica like bensky.

, acuman1@a... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 5/26/00 5:54:12 PM, herb-t@s... writes:

>

In reality at this point, only New Mexico is

> safe and that is only due to a law passed in the last 2 months.

This is a misunderstanding of the FDA's power. They can most

certainly interfere with the legal sale of a substance under their

jurisdiction. Current federal law puts a high burden on the FDA to

prove harm before they can regulate a product, which is not

unreasonable given our safety record. However, once they have passed

this hurdle, their authority supercedes that of state scope of

practice laws.

For an analogy, a state medical practice act can grant a physician

the

right to prescribe from the entire US formulary. But if the FDA

recalls a specific drug, no doctor in ANY state can legally

prescribe

it any more. The same would be true if ephedra was banned by the

FDA,

for example. It would make no difference that we were previously

allowed to prescribe it by state authority. That state authority is

superceded in this case. That is why I might be inclined to work

with

the FDA rather than against them to protect our prescribing rights.

We need to emphasize that while the substances may have dangers, we

are the only ones trained to use them safely and our professional

safety record speaks for itself. We really have no professional

interest in protecting unfettered public access to internally

ingested

natural medicines or protecting corporations right to push these

products through barely disguised drug claims and other deceptive

marketing. Where are we going to stand on this as Professionals with

an ethical responsibility to our patients?

The FDA is a

> Federal agency and not allowed to interfere with state agencies

(you

are

> under the medica

May 29, 2000

In a message dated 5/29/00 1:20:25 AM, herb-t writes:

<< We need to emphasize that while the substances may have dangers, we

are the only ones trained to use them safely and our professional

safety record speaks for itself. We really have no professional

interest in protecting unfettered public access to internally

ingested

natural medicines or protecting corporations right to push these

products through barely disguised drug claims and other deceptive

marketing. Where are we going to stand on this as Professionals with

an ethical responsibility to our patients? >>

Agreed. We need to work with the FDA to allow us to use herbs. We will get

permission to use the word prescribe in Pennsylvania and get a DEA # sometime

in my next lifetime. How do get them in the meantime?

We have to slap the FDA's patty for going overboard on inclusiveness of all

aris containing herbs via our congresspeople. This is not about rational

people making decisions. This is big money politics and heavily programmed

people, with a few bright people thrown in to give a appearance of being

nice...

David Molony

May 29, 2000

> << 1) How has it come about that the subject that constitutes

> the bulk of Chinese medicine has been effectively omitted from

> the discipline in the USA up until the present?

>

> Acupuncture is " cute " and totally alien to the Western mind, not to

mention

> that MD's hooked onto it.

You don't see this as any sort of commentary on the quality of

the education?

>

> 2) What steps should be taken to correct this?

>

> Simply, get political and get everyone you have ever taught or worked with

> political, and we need it last year or sooner. This is truly just the

> beginning of what is coming down the pike.

What does it mean to get political?

And what do you see coming down the pike?

Ken

May 30, 2000

In a message dated 5/30/00 12:40:58 AM, yulong writes:

<< 2) What steps should be taken to correct this?

>

> Simply, get political and get everyone you have ever taught or worked with

> political, and we need it last year or sooner. This is truly just the

> beginning of what is coming down the pike.

What does it mean to get political?

And what do you see coming down the pike? >>

WRite to congresspeople, join a national organization that has similar views

and work as a group (usually, in professions, a representative of that group

testifies at hearings held to provide accountability to the public) to make

changes.

What is coming down the pike is a continued barrage of PR against toxic herbs

to where both the FDA and CODEX develop regulations that make it very

difficult to use more and more herbal medicines, if not reach the level where

they are essentially banned from commerce. We are just coming onto the radar

screens of the medical pharmaceutical industrial complex, which is a multi

trillion dollar deal. Our profession is in its tender stages right now. Half

doctors and half techs. The NIH listens to ND's testimony every time, but

you never hear from L AC's. Why? No political and no research skills. No

money or staff support to work to get recognized at a national level. Plus,

we aren't " doctors " .

David Molony

May 30, 2000

I agree with this accessment. We have to develop our research skills,

upgrade our educational degrees and licensing to doctorates, and organize

more effectively with less splintering.

>

>What is coming down the pike is a continued barrage of PR against toxic herbs

>to where both the FDA and CODEX develop regulations that make it very

>difficult to use more and more herbal medicines, if not reach the level where

>they are essentially banned from commerce. We are just coming onto the radar

>screens of the medical pharmaceutical industrial complex, which is a multi

>trillion dollar deal. Our profession is in its tender stages right now. Half

>doctors and half techs. The NIH listens to ND's testimony every time, but

>you never hear from L AC's. Why? No political and no research skills. No

>money or staff support to work to get recognized at a national level. Plus,

>we aren't " doctors " .

>David Molony

>

>------

>Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.

>http://click./1/4633/9/_/542111/_/959727428/

>------

>

>Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

May 30, 2000

On Mon, 29 May 2000 05:16:30 -0000 herb-t writes:

>Oregon laws grants the right to prescribe " Oriental Pharmacopeia " ,

>which has been defined to be those herbs listed in Chinese materia

>medica like bensky.

>

Would that include Peter Holmes?

Karen Vaughan

CreationsGarden

***************************************

Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment.

'People have illness because they do not have love in their life and are

not cherished'.- Sun Si Miao

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June 3, 2000

David,

Agreed, we don't have the professional, or educational substance to hold our

own here, and those who think the answer is only in studying the classic

texts, and eschewing modern science, and modern bio-medicine in our studies,

and in our schools are seriously deluded.

We need to open our eyes and take a good look around, not only at the

struggles that the chiropractors, and naturopaths have had in the past, and

how they handled them, but also at the international, big money threats

shaping up to our basic rights.

The travails of the naturpaths at the turn of the century are well known (or

should be), but even to this day the ND's have not reached anything near

parity with the chiropractors in terms of professional acceptance and

universal licensing in the US.

And we are no where near either of them professionally, politically, or

educationally.

The chiropractors, of necessity essentially created political action machines

supported by professional giving, and that professional giving was supported

by an strong empahsis on business practices and marketing skills in their

schools (something we are woefully deficient in), increasing the educational

standards of their institutions where, in addition to training in their own

unique professional " natural techniques " , they progressively instituted

western, anatomical, and biological sciences training equivalent to western

physicians, and made sure that they could hold their own in any public, or

private discussion with any, and all other medical professionals in the

common language of modern medicine, and in terms of presentation and public

speaking skills, instituted long range and on going, domestic scientific

research programs to validate and substantiate the usefulness and value of

their therapeutics, and spent lots and lots of money on lobbyists, and even

more on lawyers suing the stuffing out of the AMA, and insurance carriers

that would not cover their services, or any other organizations that

attempted to restrain their right to practice.

We have a lot to learn professionally from these people.

Further, the Codex is planning a meeting from the 19th of this month to the

23rd in Berlin, and although they have downplayed their interest and

intentions regarding herbs and nutritional supplements in recent years, they

have not gone away, and allegedly, this conference (among other things) will

deal with the issues of the " harmonization " of national regulations regarding

nutritional and herbal supplements (translation: the removal of the rights of

the individual to take responsibility,and to exercise freedom of choice in

their own health care (and other rights as well) within their own country,

through the power of unelected, transnational governmental and non

governmental oragnizations).

With the process of globalization and internationalization that is taking

place, if they succeed in removing herbs and nutrition in Europe (except by

prescription by MD's), how long will it be before they come here demanding

" compliance " with international law, agreements, and treaties.

Where will we be then, as a profession, intently studying the classical

methodologies and " ancient scriptures " of chinese herbal medicine, with no

other options, whether homeopathics, nutrition, or western herbs, (other of

course than acupuncture), and with out the equivalent scientific,

professional, and educational status and the high level ($) of political

activism necessary when they come to take away some, most, or all of our

pharmacopeia?

We beat it last time by mobilizing our patients, and through grass roots

activism, but that (although absolutely, and critically important) will not

be enough by itself in the future with out the professional institutions

(money), scientific research (money), highly educated professionals (money

and time), and strong political organization(s) (money, money, and more

money), and a political activism that leaves our own foolish and self

destructive version of the " class struggle " between the " straights & the

mixers " out of our basic politics, and focuses instead on our own

educational, institutional, and individual growth, development, and survival

as professionals, and a profession.

Wake up people, we need to put our bickering and petty intolerances behind

us,to start make alliances with other groups that have the same vested

interests in health care freedom that we do, and work for the freedom of

choice in health care for our patients, and for our selves, because the time

is far shorter than we realize.

Bruce

-------------------------------(original post

follows)------------

<< Subj: Re: herb regulation

05/30/2000 3:57:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time

acuman1

Reply-to: <A HREF= " " >

@</A>

In a message dated 5/30/00 12:40:58 AM, yulong writes:

<< 2) What steps should be taken to correct this?

>

> Simply, get political and get everyone you have ever taught or worked with

> political, and we need it last year or sooner. This is truly just the

> beginning of what is coming down the pike.

What does it mean to get political?

And what do you see coming down the pike? >>

WRite to congresspeople, join a national organization that has similar views

and work as a group (usually, in professions, a representative of that group

testifies at hearings held to provide accountability to the public) to make

changes.

What is coming down the pike is a continued barrage of PR against toxic

herbs

to where both the FDA and CODEX develop regulations that make it very

difficult to use more and more herbal medicines, if not reach the level

where

they are essentially banned from commerce. We are just coming onto the radar

screens of the medical pharmaceutical industrial complex, which is a multi

trillion dollar deal. Our profession is in its tender stages right now. Half

doctors and half techs. The NIH listens to ND's testimony every time, but

you never hear from L AC's. Why? No political and no research skills. No

money or staff support to work to get recognized at a national level. Plus,

we aren't " doctors " .

David Molony

------

Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.

http://click./1/4633/9/_/542111/_/959727428/

------

Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

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June 3, 2000

Bruce,

I don't see any conflict between advocating study of not only the classical

but the contemporary Chinese medical literature and the pursuit of

objectives

such as those you broadly define below. In fact, I would say that a sound

reading of both ancient and modern sources is more or less prerequisite

for those who seriously intend to take forward positions in the battles

you anticipate.

One big difference between Chinese medicine and Chiropractic is the

presence of a 2,000 year heritage in the former. And I think that at

the same time that we recognize we all have a lot to learn from the

experience of Chiropractic doctors and others who have gone toe

to toe with the big money concerns that animate modern health care,

we should bear in mind that we are, for better or worse, custodians

of a tradition that has as well a great deal to teach. If we fail to study

our own traditions thoroughly, how can we discharge the attendant

responsibilities?

I do not see that you do your own cause any service by forwarding

a polemic which postulates some sort of conflict between these two

vitally important zones of action.

I for one endorse a major mobilization of resources to effect the

kinds of changes to which you aspire. Do you have detailed

plans? I would like to learn more about your strategy.

Ken

>

> Agreed, we don't have the professional, or educational substance to hold

our

> own here, and those who think the answer is only in studying the classic

> texts, and eschewing modern science, and modern bio-medicine in our

studies,

> and in our schools are seriously deluded.

>

> We need to open our eyes and take a good look around, not only at the

> struggles that the chiropractors, and naturopaths have had in the past,

and

> how they handled them, but also at the international, big money threats

> shaping up to our basic rights.

>

> The travails of the naturpaths at the turn of the century are well known

(or

> should be), but even to this day the ND's have not reached anything near

> parity with the chiropractors in terms of professional acceptance and

> universal licensing in the US.

> And we are no where near either of them professionally, politically, or

> educationally.

>

> The chiropractors, of necessity essentially created political action

machines

> supported by professional giving, and that professional giving was

supported

> by an strong empahsis on business practices and marketing skills in their

> schools (something we are woefully deficient in), increasing the

educational

> standards of their institutions where, in addition to training in their

own

> unique professional " natural techniques " , they progressively instituted

> western, anatomical, and biological sciences training equivalent to

western

> physicians, and made sure that they could hold their own in any public, or

> private discussion with any, and all other medical professionals in the

> common language of modern medicine, and in terms of presentation and

public

> speaking skills, instituted long range and on going, domestic scientific

> research programs to validate and substantiate the usefulness and value of

> their therapeutics, and spent lots and lots of money on lobbyists, and

even

> more on lawyers suing the stuffing out of the AMA, and insurance carriers

> that would not cover their services, or any other organizations that

> attempted to restrain their right to practice.

>

> We have a lot to learn professionally from these people.

>

> Further, the Codex is planning a meeting from the 19th of this month to

the

> 23rd in Berlin, and although they have downplayed their interest and

> intentions regarding herbs and nutritional supplements in recent years,

they

> have not gone away, and allegedly, this conference (among other things)

will

> deal with the issues of the " harmonization " of national regulations

regarding

> nutritional and herbal supplements (translation: the removal of the rights

of

> the individual to take responsibility,and to exercise freedom of choice in

> their own health care (and other rights as well) within their own country,

> through the power of unelected, transnational governmental and non

> governmental oragnizations).

>

> With the process of globalization and internationalization that is taking

> place, if they succeed in removing herbs and nutrition in Europe (except

by

> prescription by MD's), how long will it be before they come here demanding

> " compliance " with international law, agreements, and treaties.

>

> Where will we be then, as a profession, intently studying the classical

> methodologies and " ancient scriptures " of chinese herbal medicine, with no

> other options, whether homeopathics, nutrition, or western herbs, (other

of

> course than acupuncture), and with out the equivalent scientific,

> professional, and educational status and the high level ($) of political

> activism necessary when they come to take away some, most, or all of our

> pharmacopeia?

>

> We beat it last time by mobilizing our patients, and through grass roots

> activism, but that (although absolutely, and critically important) will

not

> be enough by itself in the future with out the professional institutions

> (money), scientific research (money), highly educated professionals (money

> and time), and strong political organization(s) (money, money, and more

> money), and a political activism that leaves our own foolish and self

> destructive version of the " class struggle " between the " straights & the

> mixers " out of our basic politics, and focuses instead on our own

> educational, institutional, and individual growth, development, and

survival

> as professionals, and a profession.

>

> Wake up people, we need to put our bickering and petty intolerances behind

> us,to start make alliances with other groups that have the same vested

> interests in health care freedom that we do, and work for the freedom of

> choice in health care for our patients, and for our selves, because the

time

> is far shorter than we realize.

>

> Bruce

>

> -------------------------------(original post

> follows)------------

> << Subj: Re: herb regulation

> 05/30/2000 3:57:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time

> acuman1

> Reply-to: <A

HREF= " " >

> @</A>

>

> In a message dated 5/30/00 12:40:58 AM, yulong writes:

>

> << 2) What steps should be taken to correct this?

> >

> > Simply, get political and get everyone you have ever taught or worked

with

> > political, and we need it last year or sooner. This is truly just the

> > beginning of what is coming down the pike.

>

> What does it mean to get political?

> And what do you see coming down the pike? >>

>

> WRite to congresspeople, join a national organization that has similar

views

> and work as a group (usually, in professions, a representative of that

group

> testifies at hearings held to provide accountability to the public) to

make

> changes.

>

> What is coming down the pike is a continued barrage of PR against toxic

> herbs

> to where both the FDA and CODEX develop regulations that make it very

> difficult to use more and more herbal medicines, if not reach the level

> where

> they are essentially banned from commerce. We are just coming onto the

radar

> screens of the medical pharmaceutical industrial complex, which is a

multi

> trillion dollar deal. Our profession is in its tender stages right now.

Half

> doctors and half techs. The NIH listens to ND's testimony every time, but

> you never hear from L AC's. Why? No political and no research skills. No

> money or staff support to work to get recognized at a national level.

Plus,

> we aren't " doctors " .

> David Molony

>

> ------

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>

June 4, 2000

In a message dated 6/3/00 6:44:10 AM, GRCanning writes:

<< We beat it last time by mobilizing our patients, and through grass roots