Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?

[Guest guest]

We need to stop looking at the phenomonon of holes, channels, and their treatment as some kind of primitive surgery with the same amount of anatomical perfection.

>>>>I guess you need to tolk to Kendall about that

Alon

[Guest guest]

It would be an interesting discussion, indeed. I need to finish his

book first. And work more on mine.

 

 

On Sunday, August 10, 2003, at 12:00 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> We need to stop looking at the phenomonon of holes, channels, and

> their treatment as some kind of primitive surgery with the same amount

> of anatomical perfection.

> >>>>I guess you need to tolk to Kendall about that

> Alon

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/10/03 12:23:09 PM Mountain Daylight Time, YinTangSong writes:

 

I have to say, I don't agree with the above statement. I realize this is a belief shared by many in the CM tradition. However, in my view and experience, it is the quality and nature of one's dreams that can point to imbalance. Dreaming itself can be an incredibly healthy and useful tool.

 

 

 

 

I very rarely dream. Of course everyone says we don't remember them, but I have a ridiculously good memory, so why don't I remember my dreams? When I dream, it's usually a game plan for tomorrow's work day. When I was younger I used to once in a while have very entertaining "epic" dreams which were pretty much novelettes. But I'm sure it's been a decade since I've had a dream like that.

 

I agree dreams are very important. I have a friend who does not know who blessed she is with her dreams. Without even trying, she will have dreams in which she receives answers to problems she is having. I've WORKED at developing that skill but have had no luck, I think I don't have enough focus. But boy, what could be better than waking up with answers?

 

Nannette

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/10/2003 4:40:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, Totopos1 writes:

 

 

I agree dreams are very important. I have a friend who does not know who blessed she is with her dreams. Without even trying, she will have dreams in which she receives answers to problems she is having. I've WORKED at developing that skill but have had no luck, I think I don't have enough focus. But boy, what could be better than waking up with answers?

 

Hi Nannette I certainly won't profess to know why you "do not dream". Only that in my experience in assisting people in this area, I have found those who feel they do not dream usually do dream. It could be a connection needs to be learned or perhaps they are not reaching certain states in sleep. In any event, I would be happy to discuss this with you off list, if you wish. I have a feeling this conversation could go the way of the "consciousness" debate ... and I would rather nip this one in the bud (big grin).

 

be well (and sweet dreams)

Maya

[Guest guest]

>>>Was this with local anesthesia?

 

No anaesthetic. The practitioner is highly skilled. It tingled a bit but most of all there was a sense of relief as he needled painful spots. The area concerned was between the anterior and medial deltoid where I must have torn a membrane some time ago.

 

There was local soreness for a few hours afterwards and slight redness around the area for a couple of days. I do a fair amount of weight lifting so I eased off until the redness went and I felt happy that any possible internal 'injury' had healed up. I was fine after that, better range of movement than I've had for years in that shoulder, and no pain doing heavy weights.

 

I wrote the name of the needle down because it was so unusual. The TCM doc called it a 'pi' needle. Heard of that ?

 

Cheers,

 

Sammy.

 

FYI: Oetzi is a 5000 year old mummified hunter found in an ice melt in the high Alpes between Italy and France in 1991. Examination of Oetzi's mummified corpse found tattoos on parts of his body that corresponded very closely with modern acupoints used in TCM. I am trying to get some images of these points, but the ones on the 'net ain't too good so far.

 

Alon Marcus [alonmarcus]10 August 2003 18:47Chinese Medicine Subject: Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?

He used a largish chisel shaped needle to a depth of up to about 1" on the anterior deltoid.

>>>Was this with local anesthesia?

AlonFor practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

[Guest guest]

I wrote the name of the needle down because it was so unusual. The TCM doc called it a 'pi' needle. Heard of that ?

 

>>>There are needles developed by a Beijing surgeon that integrate a needle with a scalpel. It that what is was. There is also a western technique called Reese technique that does very similar staff, but not based on painful point but muscle tissue texture. I do it all the time

Alon

[Guest guest]

>>>There are needles developed by a Beijing surgeon that integrate a needle with a scalpel. It that what is was.

 

I think so. I kept a sketch of the needle drawn by the doctor and a Chinese character or two he used to describe it. If you wish I can scan it & send to your private email.

 

Cheers,

 

Sammy.

 

Alon Marcus [alonmarcus]10 August 2003 23:46Chinese Medicine Subject: Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?

I wrote the name of the needle down because it was so unusual. The TCM doc called it a 'pi' needle. Heard of that ?

 

>>>There are needles developed by a Beijing surgeon that integrate a needle with a scalpel. It that what is was. There is also a western technique called Reese technique that does very similar staff, but not based on painful point but muscle tissue texture. I do it all the time

AlonFor practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

[Guest guest]

It would be an interesting discussion, indeed. I need to finish his book first. And work more on mine.>>>>I would love to have this continue when more people read his book, especially those that can go back to the Chinese and remark on the translations. They are quite unique

Alon

[Guest guest]

> > I have to say, I don't agree with the above

> statement. I realize this is a

> > belief shared by many in the CM tradition.

 

I don't know how many or which segment of the CM

population share the above view...but CM dream

diagnosis is as thorough as its other aspects.

Leaving the differentiation at dreaming or not is

useful for students, but not practitioners.

 

Bye,

Hugo

 

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[Guest guest]

Are there by any chance any books that discuss analysis of dreams in

chinese medicine? I've seen a little bit here and there but would

love to read a more thorough discussion.

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

<subincor> wrote:

>

> > > I have to say, I don't agree with the above

> > statement. I realize this is a

> > > belief shared by many in the CM tradition.

>

> I don't know how many or which segment of the CM

> population share the above view...but CM dream

> diagnosis is as thorough as its other aspects.

> Leaving the differentiation at dreaming or not is

> useful for students, but not practitioners.

>

> Bye,

> Hugo

>

>

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[Guest guest]

I don't have any specifics nor do I have

the time right now to chase them up, but

there is an institute here in Beijing that

has been collecting people's dreams for

years and studying them. I haven't seen

any publications from them for many years

but that's because I've been into other

topics.

 

If you look on the net you might find it

and it may lead you to what you're looking

for.

 

Chinese Medicine , " xuesheng1999 "

<nettlesbgood@m...> wrote:

> Are there by any chance any books that discuss analysis of dreams

in

> chinese medicine? I've seen a little bit here and there but would

> love to read a more thorough discussion.

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

> <subincor> wrote:

> >

> > > > I have to say, I don't agree with the above

> > > statement. I realize this is a

> > > > belief shared by many in the CM tradition.

> >

> > I don't know how many or which segment of the CM

> > population share the above view...but CM dream

> > diagnosis is as thorough as its other aspects.

> > Leaving the differentiation at dreaming or not is

> > useful for students, but not practitioners.

> >

> > Bye,

> > Hugo

> >

> >

>

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> __

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> > Messenger http://uk.messenger./

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " xuesheng1999 "

<nettlesbgood@m...> wrote:

> Are there by any chance any books that discuss analysis of dreams in

> chinese medicine? I've seen a little bit here and there but would

> love to read a more thorough discussion.

>

>

 

 

hi,

 

are you talking about chinese astrology?

 

 

syho

[Guest guest]

If you wish I can scan it & send to your private email.

>>>>Please do. Also see if you can get him to get to a few

Alon

[Guest guest]

HI ALON,

CAN YOU DEFIE HEALTHY PEOPLE WHO WOULD QUALIFY FOR

BEING HEALTHY.

HOW MUCH VARIATION WILL THERE BE WHEN POINTS DO MOVE.

ARE WE TALKING ABOUT A FEW INCHES OR MICRO

MILLIMETRES.

PLEASE SPECIFY TO ADDINTEREST TO THE DISCUSSION.

ANAND

 

 

--- Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > By

saying that acupoints have a somewhat

> indefinable and transitory quality; their position

> best determined by 'sensing' by a skilled

> practitioner you are asserting they do actually

> exist, and are affirming the place of TCM in the

> scheme of things. That is fine, but for someone

> looking for tangibles in the theory & practice of

> TCM it can be a big 'put-off'.

> <<<You have to realize that for example many

> Japanese schools believe that points move, and

> therefore there is no fixed position. Shima claims

> that text book locations are to be found only in

> healthy people

> Alon

 

=====

Anand Bapat

Pain Management Specialist

Sports Injury Specialist

Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville

0402 472 897

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

CAN YOU DEFIE HEALTHY PEOPLE WHO WOULD QUALIFY FORBEING HEALTHY.

>>>>i think you need to ask Miki Shima about that one

HOW MUCH VARIATION WILL THERE BE WHEN POINTS DO MOVE.ARE WE TALKING ABOUT A FEW INCHES OR MICROMILLIMETRES.

>>>>All i know to do is look for reactive areas. Are this "acupuncture"points? i have no idea.I can find various points that have various sensibility to them. If I use an CM approach then if they are close to a point i think of them as an acup point. If i do a 4 needle technique for example i feel in the text book area feeling around a 1-3 inch about feeling for the usual qualities.

Alon

[Guest guest]

yes youa re partly right. there are not too many

people who fitr the normal values. but it is not a

theoriticl situation either. i have come across a few

people who have been doing -yoga, martial arts &

meditation who have been very supple, & generally non

tender in the most common points that we expect

tihtness & stress to accumulate. of course we will

find some tender spot around the body but when we are

looking at closer to normal they have fitted the bill.

its onlyafter seeeing such people that one becomes

aware of the limitations we live in & the poorstate of

health we suffer & continue to call each one of

ouselves --NORMAL.

anand

 

 

--- Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > i

state we are not normal because some of the things

> i

> have learnt over the years.

> we should not have any tender points when we are

> perfectly normal. how many of us have that.

> we should breathe deeply & fully all the time. how

> many of us do that. when we take adeep breath we

> breathe at least 1.3 - 2.8 times what our normal

> breath feels like.

> we should be calm as a cucumber - i mean mentally &

> emotionally - are we really just because we can hide

> behind the facade of our features & facial

> expression.

> we should be sleeping without dreams - how many of

> us

> do.

> >>>>>This is a basic question between the view of

> health as a theoretic perfection and the so called

> norm or average. I have never seen anybody in which

> i cant find a tender point, and from a knowledge of

> anatomy i can promise you that you can not either.

> Its a question of knowing where to press and how to

> press. I can drug somebody or teach somebody to

> disassociate form the pain, but measurable pain

> responses could be documented. There is certainly a

> difference between the classic CM view of

> perfections, which as we know was already lost by

> the time the classics have been written, which to me

> only illustrates that these ideas are probably more

> of a romantic idea than reality has ever been, and

> the clinical reality that we have to work with when

> we treat a patient. I suggest that the later is the

> most important

> Alon

 

=====

Anand Bapat

Pain Management Specialist

Sports Injury Specialist

Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville

0402 472 897

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

if bones or tissues are missing one can tell from the

look of the body. if you are referring to minute

changes then no one can tell.

we go by clinical responses. if we are getting results

using the corresponding points in every individual we

treat then one has to accept that the points at those

locations exist. its a cause & effect deduction.

not everything in life is visible & ahs to have

concrete proof.

if i was t say show me air - you cannot. but we do

accept that air exists.

we know it exists by inference from pressure, shape of

objects, force of air etc.

such is the mystery of the nature thatw e do not have

concrete proof for everything.

anand

 

 

--- Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > i

think you are dead wrong with even thinking that

> acupoints are mobile & move with either pt to pt or

> for the same pt at a different point in time.

> what is the logic of that.

> >>>How do you find the points? do you palpate for

> them? do you feel for anything in particular? If my

> body is completely different then your, as anybody

> can tell and may even have bones or tissues missing

> as compared with yours, why would channels and

> points be identical?

>

> Alon

 

=====

Anand Bapat

Pain Management Specialist

Sports Injury Specialist

Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville

0402 472 897

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

-

hi, in my observation when we are normal we do not

dream. whenw e dream its because we are not sleeping

deep enough. this then causes disturbed sleep.

people who meditate at the higher levels do not dream

- i believe. they solve problems a they use their

quiet time to solve the missing links in their mind

without other disturbances.

anand

 

 

 

-- YinTangSong wrote: > In a message dated

8/10/2003 4:40:27 PM Pacific

> Standard Time,

> Totopos1 writes:

>

>

> > I agree dreams are very important. I have a

> friend who does not know who

> > blessed she is with her dreams. Without even

> trying, she will have dreams in

> > which she receives answers to problems she is

> having. I've WORKED at

> > developing that skill but have had no luck, I

> think I don't have enough focus. But

> > boy, what could be better than waking up with

> answers?

>

> Hi Nannette I certainly won't profess to know

> why you " do not dream " .

> Only that in my experience in assisting people in

> this area, I have found those

> who feel they do not dream usually do dream. It

> could be a connection needs

> to be learned or perhaps they are not reaching

> certain states in sleep. In any

> event, I would be happy to discuss this with you off

> list, if you wish. I

> have a feeling this conversation could go the way of

> the " consciousness " debate

> ... and I would rather nip this one in the bud (big

> grin).

>

> be well (and sweet dreams)

> Maya

>

 

=====

Anand Bapat

Pain Management Specialist

Sports Injury Specialist

Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville

0402 472 897

 

 

 

 

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