Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/9/2003 10:50:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, ga.bates writes:

 

 

I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints. Any suggestions ? Sam.

 

what are you asking? how to go about it or who to go to for the tattoos?

 

maya

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/9/03 3:10:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, inandor writes:

I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints. Any suggestions

While it is true that points can change daily or moment to moment they can also be understood and used in this way. Although I don't recommend this it was at one time done on MS patients who needed daily treatment and family members were shown how to needle them when practitioners were not available for house bound daily visits. In general, it is not a good way to work for obvious reasons. Also the point location test for the NCCAOM exam was determined originally by having many practitioners mark certain points and they often differed a bit as to location but it worked for them in practice.

 

Something to think about.

 

Bobbi

[Guest guest]

I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints.

Any suggestions ? Sam.

[Guest guest]

Either will do. Any suggestions?

 

YinTangSong [YinTangSong]09 August 2003 19:06Chinese Medicine Subject: Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?In a message dated 8/9/2003 10:50:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, ga.bates writes:

I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints. Any suggestions ? Sam.what are you asking? how to go about it or who to go to for the tattoos? maya For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

[Guest guest]

No way , sir. Acupoints change their location. Unless you tatto a full inch square for each point :>))

-geo-

-----Mensagem Original----- De: sammy_bates

Para: Chinese Medicine

Enviada em: Sábado, 9 de Agosto de 2003 14:50

Assunto: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?

I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints. Any suggestions ? Sam.For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

[Guest guest]

That is pretty radical isn't it? Are you saying that acupoints change their location on the same body, or that an acupoint on one body may not be the same as an acupoint on another body ? If an acupoint does not have a specific anatomical location, how is one supposed to find it ?

 

Does your response indicate that the Tian Sheng bronze statue for acupuncture of the Sung dynasty is irrelevant ?

 

geo [inandor]09 August 2003 20:09Chinese Medicine Subject: Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?

No way , sir. Acupoints change their location. Unless you tatto a full inch square for each point :>))

-geo-

-----Mensagem Original----- De: sammy_bates

Para: Chinese Medicine

Enviada em: Sábado, 9 de Agosto de 2003 14:50

Assunto: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?

I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints. Any suggestions ? Sam.For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

[Guest guest]

" The Jingluo Bronze acupuncture statue (circ Song dynasty 1027 BC), which

is the bases of traditional Chinese Acupuncture, .. " (below)

 

Does this mean that modern Chinese medicine and acupuncture have advanced

now to the stage where acupoints no longer have a precise anatomical

position?

 

How do you locate a moving acupoint ?

 

How do you know an acupoint has not moved whilst you are performing

acupuncture ?

 

Very confusing !

 

http://www.pku.edu.cn/academic/xb/2003/_03e120.html

 

Theory of Meridian Science

ZHANG Renji, PAN Qili

(College of Life Sciences,Peking University, Beijing, 100871)

 

 

Abstract:

Theory of Meridian-Cortical-Viscera Interrelationship suggests Meridian

(Jinguo) is an individual system. Meridian Science was founded based on

biological experimentation in early Chinese medicine. The Jingluo Bronze

acupuncture statue (circ Song dynasty 1027 BC), which is the bases of

traditional Chinese Acupuncture, has revealed 4-Dimensional structural lines

along the human body that corresponds to lines of neurobiologically active

sites. The primary focus of Meridian Science is the investigation of the

regulatory process in the human body. From scientific studies there seems to

be correlation between the intercellular space in the biological model and

Meridian pathways. Thus, Meridian Science could provide insights into the

mechanism of Tradition , with potentially great benefits to

human health care. There two primary categories of studies in Meridian

Science,1) the study of the effects of Chinese herbs and medicines on the

human body and 2) the study of the physiological and psychological effects

and mechanism of Meridian lines and pathways. Specifically, the phenomenon

of Acupuncture and Meridian pathways can be illustrated by a bi-directional

feedback loop that crosses vertebrates segments along the human body and the

perceived sensation of the stimulus by the human brain, or even caused by

Qigong. The theory of Meridian Science bases on :(1) Yin Yang of human body

and various components of the environment;(2) coordination between life and

universe;(3) circulation of Qi and body fluid in the Meridian pathway to

regulate the visceral organs. The basic concepts of Meridian Science

include:(1) identity structure;(2) time in Meridian circulation;(3) space on

Meridian architecture; (4) death and life;(5) dominance and recessiveness in

the Meridian pathway sensation; and (6) entirety function in human body.

Key words:

theory of meridian-cortex-viscera interrelationship; 4D prism coordinate;

Lower resistance meridian; Opposite membranous structure with liquid media;

Hypotheses of lower resistance passing regulation; Coding-integration-motor

neuron; Meridian molecular biology; Meridian informatics

(R.D.2002-02-28 P.D.2003-01-20 Vol.39 No.1 pp.134-143?C

 

 

 

bobbiaqua [bobbiaqua]

09 August 2003 21:02

Chinese Medicine

Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?

 

 

In a message dated 8/9/03 3:10:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

inandor writes:

I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints.

Any suggestions

While it is true that points can change daily or moment to moment they can

also be understood and used in this way. Although I don't recommend this it

was at one time done on MS patients who needed daily treatment and family

members were shown how to needle them when practitioners were not available

for house bound daily visits. In general, it is not a good way to work for

obvious reasons. Also the point location test for the NCCAOM exam was

determined originally by having many practitioners mark certain points and

they often differed a bit as to location but it worked for them in practice.

 

Something to think about.

 

Bobbi

 

 

[Guest guest]

I love these questions.

 

I particularly love the basic underlying

question: how do you know?

 

How do you know Chinese medicine?

 

I just want to take a minute to relate

something that happened in a workshop I

was doing in a clinic in Hamburg a couple

of years ago. We were dealing with development

of the sensory capacity as it pertains to

being able to listen to and follow the changes

that take place in a patient undergoing

tuina therapy.

 

One of the students stopped me as I was

walking from table to table checking out

what people were up to.

 

" I just have no idea what I'm feeling, "

she said to me with a look of such

earnest despair that I had to laugh.

 

" Perfect, " I said. " Perfect. "

 

It is all very confusing. It's only

when people seem to have it all figured

out that I get nervous.

 

When we come to understand that there

is something going on beneath the surfaces

that we see in Chinese medicine, such as

the charts of " locations " of acupuncture

points, and when we enter into the confusions

that the theories are constructed to deal

with, i.e., the confusions of the eternally

changing human body and the eternally changing

universe in which it finds itself, then we

start to do the hard work of training in

which the way of medicine lies.

 

How do you know?

 

Good darned question!

 

Ken

>

> Does this mean that modern Chinese medicine and acupuncture have

advanced

> now to the stage where acupoints no longer have a precise

anatomical

> position?

>

> How do you locate a moving acupoint ?

>

> How do you know an acupoint has not moved whilst you are performing

> acupuncture ?

>

> Very confusing !

[Guest guest]

Oh I am impressed ! ( NOT).

 

kenrose2008 [kenrose2008]10 August 2003 02:38Chinese Medicine Subject: Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?I love these questions. I particularly love the basic underlyingquestion: how do you know?How do you know Chinese medicine?I just want to take a minute to relatesomething that happened in a workshop Iwas doing in a clinic in Hamburg a coupleof years ago. We were dealing with developmentof the sensory capacity as it pertains tobeing able to listen to and follow the changesthat take place in a patient undergoing tuina therapy.One of the students stopped me as I waswalking from table to table checking outwhat people were up to."I just have no idea what I'm feeling,"she said to me with a look of suchearnest despair that I had to laugh."Perfect," I said. "Perfect."It is all very confusing. It's onlywhen people seem to have it all figuredout that I get nervous.When we come to understand that thereis something going on beneath the surfacesthat we see in Chinese medicine, such asthe charts of "locations" of acupuncturepoints, and when we enter into the confusionsthat the theories are constructed to dealwith, i.e., the confusions of the eternallychanging human body and the eternally changinguniverse in which it finds itself, then westart to do the hard work of training inwhich the way of medicine lies.How do you know?Good darned question!Ken> > Does this mean that modern Chinese medicine and acupuncture have advanced> now to the stage where acupoints no longer have a precise anatomical> position?> > How do you locate a moving acupoint ?> > How do you know an acupoint has not moved whilst you are performing> acupuncture ?> > Very confusing !For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/9/03 7:38:30 PM Mountain Daylight Time, kenrose2008 writes:

 

Perfect," I said. "Perfect."

 

It is all very confusing. It's only

when people seem to have it all figured

out that I get nervous.

 

 

 

 

Ken,

 

You are exactly right. I agree 1000% :-D

 

Your post reminds me of the Taoist story "how do you know?". I believe the teller I heard it from was Tek Lin, I as much as I can still hear the story in my mind, I'm not sure who I heard it from

 

Nannette

[Guest guest]

There is a lot of support in various schools for the concept of 'moving

points' or holes. Japanese acupuncture texts emphasize that several

points have more than one anatomical location, and that one has to

massage, press or feel for the point. This doesn't mean that he

gu/L.I. 4 migrates to P 6/neiguan. It means that acupuncture holes

cover a wider area in different seasons, are deeper or more superficial

in different seasons, that different bodies will have the qi of each

hole in slightly varying locations. After all, we use body inches to

measure hole location, not rulers. The anatomical location is a

ballpark location, not an exact locality. This is one of the

weaknesses of teaching holes/points according to anatomy. One may get

mislead into thinking a hole is a fixed structure rather than a

flexible entity.

 

 

On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 04:27 PM, ga.bates wrote:

 

> That is pretty radical isn't it? Are you saying that acupoints change

> their location on the same body, or that an acupoint on one body may

> not be the same as an acupoint on another body ?If an acupoint does

> not have a specific anatomical location, how is one supposed to find

> it ?

>  

> Does your response indicate that the Tian Sheng bronze statue for

> acupuncture of the Sung dynasty is irrelevant ?

>

>

> geo [inandor]

> 09 August 2003 20:09

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?

>

> No way , sir. Acupoints change their location. Unless you tatto a full

> inch square for each point :>))

> -geo-

> -----Mensagem Original-----

> De: sammy_bates

> Para: Chinese Medicine

> Enviada em: Sábado, 9 de Agosto de 2003 14:50

> Assunto: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?

>

>

> I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints.

> Any suggestions ? Sam.

>

>

>

> For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM.

>

> Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious,

> spam messages or flame another member.

>

> If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e.

> individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage:

> Chinese Medicine/ Click

> ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

>

>

[Guest guest]

The Jingluo bronze statue is just that, a statue, giving an

approximation of location of acupuncture holes, like that of any

anatomical figurine or statue used in an anatomy-physiology class.

Does anyone really think that the inside of the human body looks like

the representational statue? It is a map. The bronze statue is a map.

The map is not the terrain.

 

It has nothing to do with advancement, and by movement we don't mean it

moves while performing acupuncture. The practitioner moves with the

body, not fixing it in time and space like a statue.

 

We need to stop looking at the phenomonon of holes, channels, and their

treatment as some kind of primitive surgery with the same amount of

anatomical perfection. Blind Japanese acupuncturists can find the

holes without looking at any charts.

 

 

On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 04:39 PM, ga.bates wrote:

 

>

> " The Jingluo Bronze acupuncture statue (circ Song dynasty 1027 BC),

> which

> is the bases of traditional Chinese Acupuncture, .. " (below)

>

> Does this mean that modern Chinese medicine and acupuncture have

> advanced

> now to the stage where acupoints no longer have a precise anatomical

> position?

>

> How do you locate a moving acupoint ?

>

> How do you know an acupoint has not moved whilst you are performing

> acupuncture ?

>

> Very confusing !

>

> http://www.pku.edu.cn/academic/xb/2003/_03e120.html

>

> Theory of Meridian Science

> ZHANG Renji, PAN Qili

> (College of Life Sciences,Peking University, Beijing, 100871)

>

>

> Abstract:

> Theory of Meridian-Cortical-Viscera Interrelationship suggests Meridian

> (Jinguo) is an individual system. Meridian Science was founded based on

> biological experimentation in early Chinese medicine. The Jingluo

> Bronze

> acupuncture statue (circ Song dynasty 1027 BC), which is the bases of

> traditional Chinese Acupuncture, has revealed 4-Dimensional structural

> lines

> along the human body that corresponds to lines of neurobiologically

> active

> sites. The primary focus of Meridian Science is the investigation of

> the

> regulatory process in the human body. From scientific studies there

> seems to

> be correlation between the intercellular space in the biological model

> and

> Meridian pathways. Thus, Meridian Science could provide insights into

> the

> mechanism of Tradition , with potentially great

> benefits to

> human health care. There two primary categories of studies in Meridian

> Science,1) the study of the effects of Chinese herbs and medicines on

> the

> human body and 2) the study of the physiological and psychological

> effects

> and mechanism of Meridian lines and pathways. Specifically, the

> phenomenon

> of Acupuncture and Meridian pathways can be illustrated by a

> bi-directional

> feedback loop that crosses vertebrates segments along the human body

> and the

> perceived sensation of the stimulus by the human brain, or even caused

> by

> Qigong. The theory of Meridian Science bases on :(1) Yin Yang of human

> body

> and various components of the environment;(2) coordination between

> life and

> universe;(3) circulation of Qi and body fluid in the Meridian pathway

> to

> regulate the visceral organs. The basic concepts of Meridian Science

> include:(1) identity structure;(2) time in Meridian circulation;(3)

> space on

> Meridian architecture; (4) death and life;(5) dominance and

> recessiveness in

> the Meridian pathway sensation; and (6) entirety function in human

> body.

> Key words:

> theory of meridian-cortex-viscera interrelationship; 4D prism

> coordinate;

> Lower resistance meridian; Opposite membranous structure with liquid

> media;

> Hypotheses of lower resistance passing regulation;

> Coding-integration-motor

> neuron; Meridian molecular biology; Meridian informatics

> (R.D.2002-02-28 P.D.2003-01-20 Vol.39 No.1 pp.134-143?C

>

>

>

> bobbiaqua [bobbiaqua]

> 09 August 2003 21:02

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?

>

>

> In a message dated 8/9/03 3:10:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> inandor writes:

> I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints.

> Any suggestions

> While it is true that points can change daily or moment to moment they

> can

> also be understood and used in this way. Although I don't recommend

> this it

> was at one time done on MS patients who needed daily treatment and

> family

> members were shown how to needle them when practitioners were not

> available

> for house bound daily visits. In general, it is not a good way to work

> for

> obvious reasons. Also the point location test for the NCCAOM exam was

> determined originally by having many practitioners mark certain points

> and

> they often differed a bit as to location but it worked for them in

> practice.

>

> Something to think about.

>

> Bobbi

>

>

[Guest guest]

hi,

i think you are dead wrong with even thinking that

acupoints are mobile & move with either pt to pt or

for the same pt at a different point in time.

what is the logic of that.

under that scenario, the big question is what are we

doing when we needle apt. it means we are not really

doing anything. its all happening due to a needle

stuck into the body.

ifthat is the case why is there aresponse specific to

needling apoint & not due to injuries by patients, or

benefit from injections.

i think there is so ething drastically wrong in the

concept itself.

besides i am not sure how does one decide that a point

has moved.

a big question & not btpo be taken lightly.

anand

 

--- ga.bates wrote: > That is pretty

radical isn't it? Are you saying that

> acupoints change their

> location on the same body, or that an acupoint on

> one body may not be the

> same as an acupoint on another body ? If an acupoint

> does not have a

> specific anatomical location, how is one supposed to

> find it ?

>

> Does your response indicate that the Tian Sheng

> bronze statue for

> acupuncture of the Sung dynasty is irrelevant ?

>

> geo [inandor]

> 09 August 2003 20:09

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?

>

>

> No way , sir. Acupoints change their location.

> Unless you tatto a full

> inch square for each point :>))

> -geo-

> -----Mensagem Original-----

> De: sammy_bates

> Para: Chinese Medicine

> Enviada em: Sábado, 9 de Agosto de 2003 14:50

> Assunto: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?

>

>

>

> I am looking for someone to tattoo my most

> frequently used acupoints.

> Any suggestions ? Sam.

>

>

>

> For practitioners, students and those interested

> in TCM.

>

> Membership requires that you do not post any

> commerical, religious, spam

> messages or flame another member.

>

> If you want to change the way you receive email

> message, i.e.

> individually, daily digest or none, then visit the

> groups’ homepage:

>

Chinese Medicine/

> Click ‘edit my

> membership' on the right hand side and adjust

> accordingly.

>

>

[Guest guest]

hi,

i think there might be some confusion between point

size & seasons & looking at that as a moving point.

it has been well accepted that points change size

based on conditions.

i have found the size of the point to be precise & a

basic size in normals. but alot of us are not normal.

as i say there are very few of us whoa re really

normal. so there is bound to be subtle differences in

size, sensitivity, reaction to needling, etc.

this should not be confused for size changes, location

changes in people.

wereally have very few normal people on whom one can

locate exactly & find a normal size point.

 

one must not confuse issues with anatomical

variations. one neeeds to be very clear about what one

has found out before one jumps up & down just by

writing abook even though one may have viewd the whole

thing from adifferent perspective.

i state we are not normal because some of the things i

have learnt over the years.

we should not have any tender points when we are

perfectly normal. how many of us have that.

we should breathe deeply & fully all the time. how

many of us do that. when we take adeep breath we

breathe at least 1.3 - 2.8 times what our normal

breath feels like.

we should be calm as a cucumber - i mean mentally &

emotionally - are we really just because we can hide

behind the facade of our features & facial expression.

we should be sleeping without dreams - how many of us

do.

the listy can go on & on.

so let us just get our facts in perspective & not get

busy with writing articles with incomplete

observations or skewed inferences from available data.

please think before one writes as it can be quite a

effect on historical facts & we keep chasing our own

tails in righting the wrongs of our colleagues rather

than move forward with all of us toghether.

bye

anand

 

 

 

--- <zrosenbe wrote: >

There is a lot of support in various schools for the

> concept of 'moving

> points' or holes. Japanese acupuncture texts

> emphasize that several

> points have more than one anatomical location, and

> that one has to

> massage, press or feel for the point. This doesn't

> mean that he

> gu/L.I. 4 migrates to P 6/neiguan. It means that

> acupuncture holes

> cover a wider area in different seasons, are deeper

> or more superficial

> in different seasons, that different bodies will

> have the qi of each

> hole in slightly varying locations. After all, we

> use body inches to

> measure hole location, not rulers. The anatomical

> location is a

> ballpark location, not an exact locality. This is

> one of the

> weaknesses of teaching holes/points according to

> anatomy. One may get

> mislead into thinking a hole is a fixed structure

> rather than a

> flexible entity.

>

>

> On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 04:27 PM,

> ga.bates wrote:

>

> > That is pretty radical isn't it? Are you saying

> that acupoints change

> > their location on the same body, or that an

> acupoint on one body may

> > not be the same as an acupoint on another body ?If

> an acupoint does

> > not have a specific anatomical location, how is

> one supposed to find

> > it ?

> >  

> > Does your response indicate that the Tian Sheng

> bronze statue for

> > acupuncture of the Sung dynasty is irrelevant ?

> >

> >

> > geo [inandor]

> > 09 August 2003 20:09

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?

> >

> > No way , sir. Acupoints change their location.

> Unless you tatto a full

> > inch square for each point :>))

> > -geo-

> > -----Mensagem Original-----

> > De: sammy_bates

> > Para: Chinese Medicine

> > Enviada em: Sábado, 9 de Agosto de 2003 14:50

> > Assunto: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?

> >

> >

> > I am looking for someone to tattoo my most

> frequently used acupoints.

> > Any suggestions ? Sam.

> >

> >

> >

> > For practitioners, students and those interested

> in TCM.

> >

> > Membership requires that you do not post any

> commerical, religious,

> > spam messages or flame another member.

> >

> > If you want to change the way you receive email

> message, i.e.

> > individually, daily digest or none, then visit the

> groups’ homepage:

> >

>

Chinese Medicine/

> Click

> > ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and

> adjust accordingly.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

TCM Group,

 

Thank you for answering my question albeit in a somewhat hyperbolic fashion. Now I see Anand has chipped in with some reasonable comments. I am beginning to understand why the resistance to such an approach 'TCM acupuncture', and why a straight answer to my question has not been forthcoming. By saying that acupoints have a somewhat indefinable and transitory quality; their position best determined by 'sensing' by a skilled practitioner you are asserting they do actually exist, and are affirming the place of TCM in the scheme of things. That is fine, but for someone looking for tangibles in the theory & practice of TCM it can be a big 'put-off'.

 

As you are probably aware, the notion of 'acupoints' per se is contrary to a modern school in China which believes there is no such thing as meridians or acupoints. I recently had a very good acupuncture session with an orthopedic surgeon from Beijing University who held just that position. He used a largish chisel shaped needle to a depth of up to about 1" on the anterior deltoid. He used the needle to search out 'pockets of pain' and after the session a lot of mobility was restored to my 'frozen shoulder'.

 

I can see how easy it might be to dismiss the whole idea of meridian theory if needling localised pain independent of acupoint position has a therapeutic outcome. But then this misses the point (sic) that large muscles change shape due to internal stresses even in the space of a few seconds (e.g. spasm), and any meridian will consequently change relative to anatomical fixed points. Absence of evidence is no proof of evidence of absence so they say.

 

Having read all the replies I conclude that it should not matter if the position of acupoints has a periodic variation and moves a fraction this way or that - the tattoo design is simply adjusted accordingly, so instead of having neat little points you could get circles or lines. The variation in acupuncture points mentioned is no doubt why the acu-tattoos on Oetzi sometimes make up lines rather than points. Oetzi had Yin deficiency and arthritis and evidently, some of Oetzi's points travelled along meridians. Meridians on the hands and feet should be more 'anatomically fixed' than meridians on the large fleshy parts of the body and if acupoints did travel they would do so along straight lines - the meridians.

 

I guess I have to answer my own question by saying that the skill of the TCM or 'acu-tattooist' is all but lost to the modern world. What a shame! The idea of acu-tattoos has a delightfully individualistic flavour, and what a wonderful advertisement for TCM !

 

Cheers,

 

Sammy.

 

 

[zrosenbe]10 August 2003 05:42Chinese Medicine Subject: Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?The Jingluo bronze statue is just that, a statue, giving an approximation of location of acupuncture holes, like that of any anatomical figurine or statue used in an anatomy-physiology class. Does anyone really think that the inside of the human body looks like the representational statue? It is a map. The bronze statue is a map. The map is not the terrain.It has nothing to do with advancement, and by movement we don't mean it moves while performing acupuncture. The practitioner moves with the body, not fixing it in time and space like a statue.We need to stop looking at the phenomonon of holes, channels, and their treatment as some kind of primitive surgery with the same amount of anatomical perfection. Blind Japanese acupuncturists can find the holes without looking at any charts. On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 04:39 PM, ga.bates wrote:

" The Jingluo Bronze acupuncture statue (circ Song dynasty 1027 BC), whichis the bases of traditional Chinese Acupuncture, .. " (below)Does this mean that modern Chinese medicine and acupuncture have advancednow to the stage where acupoints no longer have a precise anatomicalposition?How do you locate a moving acupoint ?How do you know an acupoint has not moved whilst you are performingacupuncture ?Very confusing !http://www.pku.edu.cn/academic/xb/2003/_03e120.htmlTheory of Meridian ScienceZHANG Renji, PAN Qili(College of Life Sciences,Peking University, Beijing, 100871)Abstract:Theory of Meridian-Cortical-Viscera Interrelationship suggests Meridian(Jinguo) is an individual system. Meridian Science was founded based onbiological experimentation in early Chinese medicine. The Jingluo Bronzeacupuncture statue (circ Song dynasty 1027 BC), which is the bases oftraditional Chinese Acupuncture, has revealed 4-Dimensional structural linesalong the human body that corresponds to lines of neurobiologically activesites. The primary focus of Meridian Science is the investigation of theregulatory process in the human body. From scientific studies there seems tobe correlation between the intercellular space in the biological model andMeridian pathways. Thus, Meridian Science could provide insights into themechanism of Tradition , with potentially great benefits tohuman health care. There two primary categories of studies in MeridianScience,1) the study of the effects of Chinese herbs and medicines on thehuman body and 2) the study of the physiological and psychological effectsand mechanism of Meridian lines and pathways. Specifically, the phenomenonof Acupuncture and Meridian pathways can be illustrated by a bi-directionalfeedback loop that crosses vertebrates segments along the human body and theperceived sensation of the stimulus by the human brain, or even caused byQigong. The theory of Meridian Science bases on :(1) Yin Yang of human bodyand various components of the environment;(2) coordination between life anduniverse;(3) circulation of Qi and body fluid in the Meridian pathway toregulate the visceral organs. The basic concepts of Meridian Scienceinclude:(1) identity structure;(2) time in Meridian circulation;(3) space onMeridian architecture; (4) death and life;(5) dominance and recessiveness inthe Meridian pathway sensation; and (6) entirety function in human body.Key words:theory of meridian-cortex-viscera interrelationship; 4D prism coordinate;Lower resistance meridian; Opposite membranous structure with liquid media;Hypotheses of lower resistance passing regulation; Coding-integration-motorneuron; Meridian molecular biology; Meridian informatics(R.D.2002-02-28 P.D.2003-01-20 Vol.39 No.1 pp.134-143?Cbobbiaqua [bobbiaqua]09 August 2003 21:02Chinese Medicine Subject: Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?In a message dated 8/9/03 3:10:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,inandor writes:I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints.Any suggestionsWhile it is true that points can change daily or moment to moment they canalso be understood and used in this way. Although I don't recommend this itwas at one time done on MS patients who needed daily treatment and familymembers were shown how to needle them when practitioners were not availablefor house bound daily visits. In general, it is not a good way to work forobvious reasons. Also the point location test for the NCCAOM exam wasdetermined originally by having many practitioners mark certain points andthey often differed a bit as to location but it worked for them in practice.Something to think about.Bobbi

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , bobbiaqua@a... wrote:

> While it is true that points can change daily or moment to moment

they can

> also be understood and used in this way. Although I don't

 

 

 

would you please tell us which tcm classics and/or authoritative

literature talking about the moving of points.

 

 

syho

 

 

 

>

> Bobbi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/10/2003 1:35:39 AM Pacific Standard Time, acubapat writes:

 

 

we should be sleeping without dreams - how many of us

do.

 

 

I have to say, I don't agree with the above statement. I realize this is a belief shared by many in the CM tradition. However, in my view and experience, it is the quality and nature of one's dreams that can point to imbalance. Dreaming itself can be a incredibly healthy and useful tool.

 

Maya

[Guest guest]

alls, I know is Sam has sent out way too many emails asking that one

question. Look someone up in the phone book who does tattoos. Ask

around who is the best in your area.

On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 02:05 PM, YinTangSong wrote:

 

> In a message dated 8/9/2003 10:50:26 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> ga.bates writes:

>

>

> I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints.

> Any suggestions ? Sam.

>

>

>

> what are you asking?  how to go about it or who to go to for the

> tattoos?

>

> maya

<image.tiff>

>

>

> For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM.

>

> Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious,

> spam messages or flame another member.

>

> If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e.

> individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groupsí homepage:

> Chinese Medicine/ Click

> ëedit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Z'ev said: There is a lot of support in various schools for the concept of 'moving points' or holes.

 

My two bits on moving points can best be explained with an analogy. We all know the flow of qi in the jing-luo system was likened to water running from a spring to a stream to a river etc. When I was younger I did a lot of stream fishing in the high mountains. One thing you learned is that the fish like to rest in a whirlpool where they don't have to fight the current and bits of food get trapped. Such whirlpools will form on the downstream side of a rock or log in the stream. You learn to position yourself upstream and then float your bait in just the right spot so it will get caught in the whirlpool. The rock or log is like a bone or other anatomical structure and the acupoint is like the whirlpool. The whirlpool will always be located by that rock and the rock does not move. But the center of the vortex (whirlpool) shifts based on various factors especially the strength of the stream at any given point. In other words, exactly where you place your bait so it will get trapped in the center of the whirlpool will vary, even from hour to hour. I find in my experience the same is true for acupoints. The charts or models show the whirlpools, especially in relation to rock and logs but exactly where you need to put your bait (needle) can vary slightly. Qi flow is very dynamic like the shifting current of a stream. While the basic structure of the stream stays the same and the rocks and so forth remain, there are some interesting dynamics playing out.You can sometimes catch a fish even if you don't find the center of the whirlpool and you can get positive results even if you don't find the center of the acupoint vortex. But your creel fills up faster and your patients have relatively better results if you know how to find whirlpools with fish in them and can get your bait to drift into the center of the vortex. How's that for beating an analogy to death?

 

Matt Bauer

 

-

 

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, August 09, 2003 9:34 PM

Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?

There is a lot of support in various schools for the concept of 'moving points' or holes. Japanese acupuncture texts emphasize that several points have more than one anatomical location, and that one has to massage, press or feel for the point. This doesn't mean that he gu/L.I. 4 migrates to P 6/neiguan. It means that acupuncture holes cover a wider area in different seasons, are deeper or more superficial in different seasons, that different bodies will have the qi of each hole in slightly varying locations. After all, we use body inches to measure hole location, not rulers. The anatomical location is a ballpark location, not an exact locality. This is one of the weaknesses of teaching holes/points according to anatomy. One may get mislead into thinking a hole is a fixed structure rather than a flexible entity.On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 04:27 PM, ga.bates wrote:

That is pretty radical isn't it? Are you saying that acupoints change their location on the same body, or that an acupoint on one body may not be the same as an acupoint on another body ?If an acupoint does not have a specific anatomical location, how is one supposed to find it ? Does your response indicate that the Tian Sheng bronze statue for acupuncture of the Sung dynasty is irrelevant ?geo [inandor]09 August 2003 20:09Chinese Medicine Subject: Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?No way , sir. Acupoints change their location. Unless you tatto a full inch square for each point :>))-geo------Mensagem Original-----De: sammy_batesPara: Chinese Medicine Enviada em: Sábado, 9 de Agosto de 2003 14:50Assunto: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints.Any suggestions ? Sam.For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM.Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member.If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

[Guest guest]

By saying that acupoints have a somewhat indefinable and transitory quality; their position best determined by 'sensing' by a skilled practitioner you are asserting they do actually exist, and are affirming the place of TCM in the scheme of things. That is fine, but for someone looking for tangibles in the theory & practice of TCM it can be a big 'put-off'.

<<<You have to realize that for example many Japanese schools believe that points move, and therefore there is no fixed position. Shima claims that text book locations are to be found only in healthy people

Alon

[Guest guest]

He used a largish chisel shaped needle to a depth of up to about 1" on the anterior deltoid.

>>>Was this with local anesthesia?

Alon

[Guest guest]

Is this a wind up? I only joined the group yesterday !

 

> Sam has sent out way too many emails asking that one question

 

 

Anyhow, it isn't an OBSESSION, just a simple question. Sorry you missed the point and evidently failed to benefit from some of the good posts that followed.

 

Sam.

 

P.S. Don't you think I looked everywhere before asking , Yellow Pages, Google and so on ? I should tell you now I don't want tattooing with a 'Shaolin Dragon' or other such mythical beast, no matter how sexy they are .. ;-)

 

[sammy Bates] Stacey Sinclair [stacey]10 August 2003 17:52Chinese Medicine Subject: Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?alls, I know is . Look someone up in the phone book who does tattoos. Ask around who is the best in your area. On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 02:05 PM, YinTangSong wrote:

In a message dated 8/9/2003 10:50:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, ga.bates writes:I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints.Any suggestions ? Sam.what are you asking? how to go about it or who to go to for the tattoos?maya<image.tiff>

For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM.Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member.If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groupsí homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ëedit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

[Guest guest]

i think you are dead wrong with even thinking thatacupoints are mobile & move with either pt to pt orfor the same pt at a different point in time.what is the logic of that.>>>How do you find the points? do you palpate for them? do you feel for anything in particular? If my body is completely different then your, as anybody can tell and may even have bones or tissues missing as compared with yours, why would channels and points be identical?

 

Alon

[Guest guest]

i state we are not normal because some of the things ihave learnt over the years.we should not have any tender points when we areperfectly normal. how many of us have that.we should breathe deeply & fully all the time. howmany of us do that. when we take adeep breath webreathe at least 1.3 - 2.8 times what our normalbreath feels like.we should be calm as a cucumber - i mean mentally & emotionally - are we really just because we can hidebehind the facade of our features & facial expression.we should be sleeping without dreams - how many of usdo.>>>>>This is a basic question between the view of health as a theoretic perfection and the so called norm or average. I have never seen anybody in which i cant find a tender point, and from a knowledge of anatomy i can promise you that you can not either. Its a question of knowing where to press and how to press. I can drug somebody or teach somebody to disassociate form the pain, but measurable pain responses could be documented. There is certainly a difference between the classic CM view of perfections, which as we know was already lost by the time the classics have been written, which to me only illustrates that these ideas are probably more of a romantic idea than reality has ever been, and the clinical reality that we have to work with when we treat a patient. I suggest that the later is the most important

Alon

[Guest guest]

press or feel for the point.>>>This is also said in Lingshu

Alon