Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 In a message dated 8/9/2003 10:50:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, ga.bates writes: I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints. Any suggestions ? Sam. what are you asking? how to go about it or who to go to for the tattoos? maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 In a message dated 8/9/03 3:10:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, inandor writes: I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints. Any suggestions While it is true that points can change daily or moment to moment they can also be understood and used in this way. Although I don't recommend this it was at one time done on MS patients who needed daily treatment and family members were shown how to needle them when practitioners were not available for house bound daily visits. In general, it is not a good way to work for obvious reasons. Also the point location test for the NCCAOM exam was determined originally by having many practitioners mark certain points and they often differed a bit as to location but it worked for them in practice. Something to think about. Bobbi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints. Any suggestions ? Sam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 Either will do. Any suggestions? YinTangSong [YinTangSong]09 August 2003 19:06Chinese Medicine Subject: Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?In a message dated 8/9/2003 10:50:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, ga.bates writes: I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints. Any suggestions ? Sam.what are you asking? how to go about it or who to go to for the tattoos? maya For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 No way , sir. Acupoints change their location. Unless you tatto a full inch square for each point :>)) -geo- -----Mensagem Original----- De: sammy_bates Para: Chinese Medicine Enviada em: Sábado, 9 de Agosto de 2003 14:50 Assunto: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ? I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints. Any suggestions ? Sam.For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 That is pretty radical isn't it? Are you saying that acupoints change their location on the same body, or that an acupoint on one body may not be the same as an acupoint on another body ? If an acupoint does not have a specific anatomical location, how is one supposed to find it ? Does your response indicate that the Tian Sheng bronze statue for acupuncture of the Sung dynasty is irrelevant ? geo [inandor]09 August 2003 20:09Chinese Medicine Subject: Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ? No way , sir. Acupoints change their location. Unless you tatto a full inch square for each point :>)) -geo- -----Mensagem Original----- De: sammy_bates Para: Chinese Medicine Enviada em: Sábado, 9 de Agosto de 2003 14:50 Assunto: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ? I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints. Any suggestions ? Sam.For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 " The Jingluo Bronze acupuncture statue (circ Song dynasty 1027 BC), which is the bases of traditional Chinese Acupuncture, .. " (below) Does this mean that modern Chinese medicine and acupuncture have advanced now to the stage where acupoints no longer have a precise anatomical position? How do you locate a moving acupoint ? How do you know an acupoint has not moved whilst you are performing acupuncture ? Very confusing ! http://www.pku.edu.cn/academic/xb/2003/_03e120.html Theory of Meridian Science ZHANG Renji, PAN Qili (College of Life Sciences,Peking University, Beijing, 100871) Abstract: Theory of Meridian-Cortical-Viscera Interrelationship suggests Meridian (Jinguo) is an individual system. Meridian Science was founded based on biological experimentation in early Chinese medicine. The Jingluo Bronze acupuncture statue (circ Song dynasty 1027 BC), which is the bases of traditional Chinese Acupuncture, has revealed 4-Dimensional structural lines along the human body that corresponds to lines of neurobiologically active sites. The primary focus of Meridian Science is the investigation of the regulatory process in the human body. From scientific studies there seems to be correlation between the intercellular space in the biological model and Meridian pathways. Thus, Meridian Science could provide insights into the mechanism of Tradition , with potentially great benefits to human health care. There two primary categories of studies in Meridian Science,1) the study of the effects of Chinese herbs and medicines on the human body and 2) the study of the physiological and psychological effects and mechanism of Meridian lines and pathways. Specifically, the phenomenon of Acupuncture and Meridian pathways can be illustrated by a bi-directional feedback loop that crosses vertebrates segments along the human body and the perceived sensation of the stimulus by the human brain, or even caused by Qigong. The theory of Meridian Science bases on :(1) Yin Yang of human body and various components of the environment;(2) coordination between life and universe;(3) circulation of Qi and body fluid in the Meridian pathway to regulate the visceral organs. The basic concepts of Meridian Science include:(1) identity structure;(2) time in Meridian circulation;(3) space on Meridian architecture; (4) death and life;(5) dominance and recessiveness in the Meridian pathway sensation; and (6) entirety function in human body. Key words: theory of meridian-cortex-viscera interrelationship; 4D prism coordinate; Lower resistance meridian; Opposite membranous structure with liquid media; Hypotheses of lower resistance passing regulation; Coding-integration-motor neuron; Meridian molecular biology; Meridian informatics (R.D.2002-02-28 P.D.2003-01-20 Vol.39 No.1 pp.134-143?C bobbiaqua [bobbiaqua] 09 August 2003 21:02 Chinese Medicine Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ? In a message dated 8/9/03 3:10:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, inandor writes: I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints. Any suggestions While it is true that points can change daily or moment to moment they can also be understood and used in this way. Although I don't recommend this it was at one time done on MS patients who needed daily treatment and family members were shown how to needle them when practitioners were not available for house bound daily visits. In general, it is not a good way to work for obvious reasons. Also the point location test for the NCCAOM exam was determined originally by having many practitioners mark certain points and they often differed a bit as to location but it worked for them in practice. Something to think about. Bobbi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 I love these questions. I particularly love the basic underlying question: how do you know? How do you know Chinese medicine? I just want to take a minute to relate something that happened in a workshop I was doing in a clinic in Hamburg a couple of years ago. We were dealing with development of the sensory capacity as it pertains to being able to listen to and follow the changes that take place in a patient undergoing tuina therapy. One of the students stopped me as I was walking from table to table checking out what people were up to. " I just have no idea what I'm feeling, " she said to me with a look of such earnest despair that I had to laugh. " Perfect, " I said. " Perfect. " It is all very confusing. It's only when people seem to have it all figured out that I get nervous. When we come to understand that there is something going on beneath the surfaces that we see in Chinese medicine, such as the charts of " locations " of acupuncture points, and when we enter into the confusions that the theories are constructed to deal with, i.e., the confusions of the eternally changing human body and the eternally changing universe in which it finds itself, then we start to do the hard work of training in which the way of medicine lies. How do you know? Good darned question! Ken > > Does this mean that modern Chinese medicine and acupuncture have advanced > now to the stage where acupoints no longer have a precise anatomical > position? > > How do you locate a moving acupoint ? > > How do you know an acupoint has not moved whilst you are performing > acupuncture ? > > Very confusing ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 Oh I am impressed ! ( NOT). kenrose2008 [kenrose2008]10 August 2003 02:38Chinese Medicine Subject: Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?I love these questions. I particularly love the basic underlyingquestion: how do you know?How do you know Chinese medicine?I just want to take a minute to relatesomething that happened in a workshop Iwas doing in a clinic in Hamburg a coupleof years ago. We were dealing with developmentof the sensory capacity as it pertains tobeing able to listen to and follow the changesthat take place in a patient undergoing tuina therapy.One of the students stopped me as I waswalking from table to table checking outwhat people were up to."I just have no idea what I'm feeling,"she said to me with a look of suchearnest despair that I had to laugh."Perfect," I said. "Perfect."It is all very confusing. It's onlywhen people seem to have it all figuredout that I get nervous.When we come to understand that thereis something going on beneath the surfacesthat we see in Chinese medicine, such asthe charts of "locations" of acupuncturepoints, and when we enter into the confusionsthat the theories are constructed to dealwith, i.e., the confusions of the eternallychanging human body and the eternally changinguniverse in which it finds itself, then westart to do the hard work of training inwhich the way of medicine lies.How do you know?Good darned question!Ken> > Does this mean that modern Chinese medicine and acupuncture have advanced> now to the stage where acupoints no longer have a precise anatomical> position?> > How do you locate a moving acupoint ?> > How do you know an acupoint has not moved whilst you are performing> acupuncture ?> > Very confusing !For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 In a message dated 8/9/03 7:38:30 PM Mountain Daylight Time, kenrose2008 writes: Perfect," I said. "Perfect." It is all very confusing. It's only when people seem to have it all figured out that I get nervous. Ken, You are exactly right. I agree 1000% :-D Your post reminds me of the Taoist story "how do you know?". I believe the teller I heard it from was Tek Lin, I as much as I can still hear the story in my mind, I'm not sure who I heard it from Nannette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 There is a lot of support in various schools for the concept of 'moving points' or holes. Japanese acupuncture texts emphasize that several points have more than one anatomical location, and that one has to massage, press or feel for the point. This doesn't mean that he gu/L.I. 4 migrates to P 6/neiguan. It means that acupuncture holes cover a wider area in different seasons, are deeper or more superficial in different seasons, that different bodies will have the qi of each hole in slightly varying locations. After all, we use body inches to measure hole location, not rulers. The anatomical location is a ballpark location, not an exact locality. This is one of the weaknesses of teaching holes/points according to anatomy. One may get mislead into thinking a hole is a fixed structure rather than a flexible entity. On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 04:27 PM, ga.bates wrote: > That is pretty radical isn't it? Are you saying that acupoints change > their location on the same body, or that an acupoint on one body may > not be the same as an acupoint on another body ?If an acupoint does > not have a specific anatomical location, how is one supposed to find > it ? > > Does your response indicate that the Tian Sheng bronze statue for > acupuncture of the Sung dynasty is irrelevant ? > > > geo [inandor] > 09 August 2003 20:09 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ? > > No way , sir. Acupoints change their location. Unless you tatto a full > inch square for each point :>)) > -geo- > -----Mensagem Original----- > De: sammy_bates > Para: Chinese Medicine > Enviada em: Sábado, 9 de Agosto de 2003 14:50 > Assunto: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ? > > > I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints. > Any suggestions ? Sam. > > > > For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, > spam messages or flame another member. > > If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. > individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: > Chinese Medicine/ Click > ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 The Jingluo bronze statue is just that, a statue, giving an approximation of location of acupuncture holes, like that of any anatomical figurine or statue used in an anatomy-physiology class. Does anyone really think that the inside of the human body looks like the representational statue? It is a map. The bronze statue is a map. The map is not the terrain. It has nothing to do with advancement, and by movement we don't mean it moves while performing acupuncture. The practitioner moves with the body, not fixing it in time and space like a statue. We need to stop looking at the phenomonon of holes, channels, and their treatment as some kind of primitive surgery with the same amount of anatomical perfection. Blind Japanese acupuncturists can find the holes without looking at any charts. On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 04:39 PM, ga.bates wrote: > > " The Jingluo Bronze acupuncture statue (circ Song dynasty 1027 BC), > which > is the bases of traditional Chinese Acupuncture, .. " (below) > > Does this mean that modern Chinese medicine and acupuncture have > advanced > now to the stage where acupoints no longer have a precise anatomical > position? > > How do you locate a moving acupoint ? > > How do you know an acupoint has not moved whilst you are performing > acupuncture ? > > Very confusing ! > > http://www.pku.edu.cn/academic/xb/2003/_03e120.html > > Theory of Meridian Science > ZHANG Renji, PAN Qili > (College of Life Sciences,Peking University, Beijing, 100871) > > > Abstract: > Theory of Meridian-Cortical-Viscera Interrelationship suggests Meridian > (Jinguo) is an individual system. Meridian Science was founded based on > biological experimentation in early Chinese medicine. The Jingluo > Bronze > acupuncture statue (circ Song dynasty 1027 BC), which is the bases of > traditional Chinese Acupuncture, has revealed 4-Dimensional structural > lines > along the human body that corresponds to lines of neurobiologically > active > sites. The primary focus of Meridian Science is the investigation of > the > regulatory process in the human body. From scientific studies there > seems to > be correlation between the intercellular space in the biological model > and > Meridian pathways. Thus, Meridian Science could provide insights into > the > mechanism of Tradition , with potentially great > benefits to > human health care. There two primary categories of studies in Meridian > Science,1) the study of the effects of Chinese herbs and medicines on > the > human body and 2) the study of the physiological and psychological > effects > and mechanism of Meridian lines and pathways. Specifically, the > phenomenon > of Acupuncture and Meridian pathways can be illustrated by a > bi-directional > feedback loop that crosses vertebrates segments along the human body > and the > perceived sensation of the stimulus by the human brain, or even caused > by > Qigong. The theory of Meridian Science bases on :(1) Yin Yang of human > body > and various components of the environment;(2) coordination between > life and > universe;(3) circulation of Qi and body fluid in the Meridian pathway > to > regulate the visceral organs. The basic concepts of Meridian Science > include:(1) identity structure;(2) time in Meridian circulation;(3) > space on > Meridian architecture; (4) death and life;(5) dominance and > recessiveness in > the Meridian pathway sensation; and (6) entirety function in human > body. > Key words: > theory of meridian-cortex-viscera interrelationship; 4D prism > coordinate; > Lower resistance meridian; Opposite membranous structure with liquid > media; > Hypotheses of lower resistance passing regulation; > Coding-integration-motor > neuron; Meridian molecular biology; Meridian informatics > (R.D.2002-02-28 P.D.2003-01-20 Vol.39 No.1 pp.134-143?C > > > > bobbiaqua [bobbiaqua] > 09 August 2003 21:02 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ? > > > In a message dated 8/9/03 3:10:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > inandor writes: > I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints. > Any suggestions > While it is true that points can change daily or moment to moment they > can > also be understood and used in this way. Although I don't recommend > this it > was at one time done on MS patients who needed daily treatment and > family > members were shown how to needle them when practitioners were not > available > for house bound daily visits. In general, it is not a good way to work > for > obvious reasons. Also the point location test for the NCCAOM exam was > determined originally by having many practitioners mark certain points > and > they often differed a bit as to location but it worked for them in > practice. > > Something to think about. > > Bobbi > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 hi, i think you are dead wrong with even thinking that acupoints are mobile & move with either pt to pt or for the same pt at a different point in time. what is the logic of that. under that scenario, the big question is what are we doing when we needle apt. it means we are not really doing anything. its all happening due to a needle stuck into the body. ifthat is the case why is there aresponse specific to needling apoint & not due to injuries by patients, or benefit from injections. i think there is so ething drastically wrong in the concept itself. besides i am not sure how does one decide that a point has moved. a big question & not btpo be taken lightly. anand --- ga.bates wrote: > That is pretty radical isn't it? Are you saying that > acupoints change their > location on the same body, or that an acupoint on > one body may not be the > same as an acupoint on another body ? If an acupoint > does not have a > specific anatomical location, how is one supposed to > find it ? > > Does your response indicate that the Tian Sheng > bronze statue for > acupuncture of the Sung dynasty is irrelevant ? > > geo [inandor] > 09 August 2003 20:09 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ? > > > No way , sir. Acupoints change their location. > Unless you tatto a full > inch square for each point :>)) > -geo- > -----Mensagem Original----- > De: sammy_bates > Para: Chinese Medicine > Enviada em: Sábado, 9 de Agosto de 2003 14:50 > Assunto: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ? > > > > I am looking for someone to tattoo my most > frequently used acupoints. > Any suggestions ? Sam. > > > > For practitioners, students and those interested > in TCM. > > Membership requires that you do not post any > commerical, religious, spam > messages or flame another member. > > If you want to change the way you receive email > message, i.e. > individually, daily digest or none, then visit the > groups’ homepage: > Chinese Medicine/ > Click ‘edit my > membership' on the right hand side and adjust > accordingly. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 hi, i think there might be some confusion between point size & seasons & looking at that as a moving point. it has been well accepted that points change size based on conditions. i have found the size of the point to be precise & a basic size in normals. but alot of us are not normal. as i say there are very few of us whoa re really normal. so there is bound to be subtle differences in size, sensitivity, reaction to needling, etc. this should not be confused for size changes, location changes in people. wereally have very few normal people on whom one can locate exactly & find a normal size point. one must not confuse issues with anatomical variations. one neeeds to be very clear about what one has found out before one jumps up & down just by writing abook even though one may have viewd the whole thing from adifferent perspective. i state we are not normal because some of the things i have learnt over the years. we should not have any tender points when we are perfectly normal. how many of us have that. we should breathe deeply & fully all the time. how many of us do that. when we take adeep breath we breathe at least 1.3 - 2.8 times what our normal breath feels like. we should be calm as a cucumber - i mean mentally & emotionally - are we really just because we can hide behind the facade of our features & facial expression. we should be sleeping without dreams - how many of us do. the listy can go on & on. so let us just get our facts in perspective & not get busy with writing articles with incomplete observations or skewed inferences from available data. please think before one writes as it can be quite a effect on historical facts & we keep chasing our own tails in righting the wrongs of our colleagues rather than move forward with all of us toghether. bye anand --- <zrosenbe wrote: > There is a lot of support in various schools for the > concept of 'moving > points' or holes. Japanese acupuncture texts > emphasize that several > points have more than one anatomical location, and > that one has to > massage, press or feel for the point. This doesn't > mean that he > gu/L.I. 4 migrates to P 6/neiguan. It means that > acupuncture holes > cover a wider area in different seasons, are deeper > or more superficial > in different seasons, that different bodies will > have the qi of each > hole in slightly varying locations. After all, we > use body inches to > measure hole location, not rulers. The anatomical > location is a > ballpark location, not an exact locality. This is > one of the > weaknesses of teaching holes/points according to > anatomy. One may get > mislead into thinking a hole is a fixed structure > rather than a > flexible entity. > > > On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 04:27 PM, > ga.bates wrote: > > > That is pretty radical isn't it? Are you saying > that acupoints change > > their location on the same body, or that an > acupoint on one body may > > not be the same as an acupoint on another body ?If > an acupoint does > > not have a specific anatomical location, how is > one supposed to find > > it ? > > > > Does your response indicate that the Tian Sheng > bronze statue for > > acupuncture of the Sung dynasty is irrelevant ? > > > > > > geo [inandor] > > 09 August 2003 20:09 > > Chinese Medicine > > Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ? > > > > No way , sir. Acupoints change their location. > Unless you tatto a full > > inch square for each point :>)) > > -geo- > > -----Mensagem Original----- > > De: sammy_bates > > Para: Chinese Medicine > > Enviada em: Sábado, 9 de Agosto de 2003 14:50 > > Assunto: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ? > > > > > > I am looking for someone to tattoo my most > frequently used acupoints. > > Any suggestions ? Sam. > > > > > > > > For practitioners, students and those interested > in TCM. > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any > commerical, religious, > > spam messages or flame another member. > > > > If you want to change the way you receive email > message, i.e. > > individually, daily digest or none, then visit the > groups’ homepage: > > > Chinese Medicine/ > Click > > ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and > adjust accordingly. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 TCM Group, Thank you for answering my question albeit in a somewhat hyperbolic fashion. Now I see Anand has chipped in with some reasonable comments. I am beginning to understand why the resistance to such an approach 'TCM acupuncture', and why a straight answer to my question has not been forthcoming. By saying that acupoints have a somewhat indefinable and transitory quality; their position best determined by 'sensing' by a skilled practitioner you are asserting they do actually exist, and are affirming the place of TCM in the scheme of things. That is fine, but for someone looking for tangibles in the theory & practice of TCM it can be a big 'put-off'. As you are probably aware, the notion of 'acupoints' per se is contrary to a modern school in China which believes there is no such thing as meridians or acupoints. I recently had a very good acupuncture session with an orthopedic surgeon from Beijing University who held just that position. He used a largish chisel shaped needle to a depth of up to about 1" on the anterior deltoid. He used the needle to search out 'pockets of pain' and after the session a lot of mobility was restored to my 'frozen shoulder'. I can see how easy it might be to dismiss the whole idea of meridian theory if needling localised pain independent of acupoint position has a therapeutic outcome. But then this misses the point (sic) that large muscles change shape due to internal stresses even in the space of a few seconds (e.g. spasm), and any meridian will consequently change relative to anatomical fixed points. Absence of evidence is no proof of evidence of absence so they say. Having read all the replies I conclude that it should not matter if the position of acupoints has a periodic variation and moves a fraction this way or that - the tattoo design is simply adjusted accordingly, so instead of having neat little points you could get circles or lines. The variation in acupuncture points mentioned is no doubt why the acu-tattoos on Oetzi sometimes make up lines rather than points. Oetzi had Yin deficiency and arthritis and evidently, some of Oetzi's points travelled along meridians. Meridians on the hands and feet should be more 'anatomically fixed' than meridians on the large fleshy parts of the body and if acupoints did travel they would do so along straight lines - the meridians. I guess I have to answer my own question by saying that the skill of the TCM or 'acu-tattooist' is all but lost to the modern world. What a shame! The idea of acu-tattoos has a delightfully individualistic flavour, and what a wonderful advertisement for TCM ! Cheers, Sammy. [zrosenbe]10 August 2003 05:42Chinese Medicine Subject: Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?The Jingluo bronze statue is just that, a statue, giving an approximation of location of acupuncture holes, like that of any anatomical figurine or statue used in an anatomy-physiology class. Does anyone really think that the inside of the human body looks like the representational statue? It is a map. The bronze statue is a map. The map is not the terrain.It has nothing to do with advancement, and by movement we don't mean it moves while performing acupuncture. The practitioner moves with the body, not fixing it in time and space like a statue.We need to stop looking at the phenomonon of holes, channels, and their treatment as some kind of primitive surgery with the same amount of anatomical perfection. Blind Japanese acupuncturists can find the holes without looking at any charts. On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 04:39 PM, ga.bates wrote: " The Jingluo Bronze acupuncture statue (circ Song dynasty 1027 BC), whichis the bases of traditional Chinese Acupuncture, .. " (below)Does this mean that modern Chinese medicine and acupuncture have advancednow to the stage where acupoints no longer have a precise anatomicalposition?How do you locate a moving acupoint ?How do you know an acupoint has not moved whilst you are performingacupuncture ?Very confusing !http://www.pku.edu.cn/academic/xb/2003/_03e120.htmlTheory of Meridian ScienceZHANG Renji, PAN Qili(College of Life Sciences,Peking University, Beijing, 100871)Abstract:Theory of Meridian-Cortical-Viscera Interrelationship suggests Meridian(Jinguo) is an individual system. Meridian Science was founded based onbiological experimentation in early Chinese medicine. The Jingluo Bronzeacupuncture statue (circ Song dynasty 1027 BC), which is the bases oftraditional Chinese Acupuncture, has revealed 4-Dimensional structural linesalong the human body that corresponds to lines of neurobiologically activesites. The primary focus of Meridian Science is the investigation of theregulatory process in the human body. From scientific studies there seems tobe correlation between the intercellular space in the biological model andMeridian pathways. Thus, Meridian Science could provide insights into themechanism of Tradition , with potentially great benefits tohuman health care. There two primary categories of studies in MeridianScience,1) the study of the effects of Chinese herbs and medicines on thehuman body and 2) the study of the physiological and psychological effectsand mechanism of Meridian lines and pathways. Specifically, the phenomenonof Acupuncture and Meridian pathways can be illustrated by a bi-directionalfeedback loop that crosses vertebrates segments along the human body and theperceived sensation of the stimulus by the human brain, or even caused byQigong. The theory of Meridian Science bases on :(1) Yin Yang of human bodyand various components of the environment;(2) coordination between life anduniverse;(3) circulation of Qi and body fluid in the Meridian pathway toregulate the visceral organs. The basic concepts of Meridian Scienceinclude:(1) identity structure;(2) time in Meridian circulation;(3) space onMeridian architecture; (4) death and life;(5) dominance and recessiveness inthe Meridian pathway sensation; and (6) entirety function in human body.Key words:theory of meridian-cortex-viscera interrelationship; 4D prism coordinate;Lower resistance meridian; Opposite membranous structure with liquid media;Hypotheses of lower resistance passing regulation; Coding-integration-motorneuron; Meridian molecular biology; Meridian informatics(R.D.2002-02-28 P.D.2003-01-20 Vol.39 No.1 pp.134-143?Cbobbiaqua [bobbiaqua]09 August 2003 21:02Chinese Medicine Subject: Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?In a message dated 8/9/03 3:10:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,inandor writes:I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints.Any suggestionsWhile it is true that points can change daily or moment to moment they canalso be understood and used in this way. Although I don't recommend this itwas at one time done on MS patients who needed daily treatment and familymembers were shown how to needle them when practitioners were not availablefor house bound daily visits. In general, it is not a good way to work forobvious reasons. Also the point location test for the NCCAOM exam wasdetermined originally by having many practitioners mark certain points andthey often differed a bit as to location but it worked for them in practice.Something to think about.Bobbi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 Chinese Medicine , bobbiaqua@a... wrote: > While it is true that points can change daily or moment to moment they can > also be understood and used in this way. Although I don't would you please tell us which tcm classics and/or authoritative literature talking about the moving of points. syho > > Bobbi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 In a message dated 8/10/2003 1:35:39 AM Pacific Standard Time, acubapat writes: we should be sleeping without dreams - how many of us do. I have to say, I don't agree with the above statement. I realize this is a belief shared by many in the CM tradition. However, in my view and experience, it is the quality and nature of one's dreams that can point to imbalance. Dreaming itself can be a incredibly healthy and useful tool. Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 alls, I know is Sam has sent out way too many emails asking that one question. Look someone up in the phone book who does tattoos. Ask around who is the best in your area. On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 02:05 PM, YinTangSong wrote: > In a message dated 8/9/2003 10:50:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, > ga.bates writes: > > > I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints. > Any suggestions ? Sam. > > > > what are you asking? how to go about it or who to go to for the > tattoos? > > maya <image.tiff> > > > For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, > spam messages or flame another member. > > If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. > individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groupsí homepage: > Chinese Medicine/ Click > ëedit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 Z'ev said: There is a lot of support in various schools for the concept of 'moving points' or holes. My two bits on moving points can best be explained with an analogy. We all know the flow of qi in the jing-luo system was likened to water running from a spring to a stream to a river etc. When I was younger I did a lot of stream fishing in the high mountains. One thing you learned is that the fish like to rest in a whirlpool where they don't have to fight the current and bits of food get trapped. Such whirlpools will form on the downstream side of a rock or log in the stream. You learn to position yourself upstream and then float your bait in just the right spot so it will get caught in the whirlpool. The rock or log is like a bone or other anatomical structure and the acupoint is like the whirlpool. The whirlpool will always be located by that rock and the rock does not move. But the center of the vortex (whirlpool) shifts based on various factors especially the strength of the stream at any given point. In other words, exactly where you place your bait so it will get trapped in the center of the whirlpool will vary, even from hour to hour. I find in my experience the same is true for acupoints. The charts or models show the whirlpools, especially in relation to rock and logs but exactly where you need to put your bait (needle) can vary slightly. Qi flow is very dynamic like the shifting current of a stream. While the basic structure of the stream stays the same and the rocks and so forth remain, there are some interesting dynamics playing out.You can sometimes catch a fish even if you don't find the center of the whirlpool and you can get positive results even if you don't find the center of the acupoint vortex. But your creel fills up faster and your patients have relatively better results if you know how to find whirlpools with fish in them and can get your bait to drift into the center of the vortex. How's that for beating an analogy to death? Matt Bauer - Chinese Medicine Saturday, August 09, 2003 9:34 PM Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ? There is a lot of support in various schools for the concept of 'moving points' or holes. Japanese acupuncture texts emphasize that several points have more than one anatomical location, and that one has to massage, press or feel for the point. This doesn't mean that he gu/L.I. 4 migrates to P 6/neiguan. It means that acupuncture holes cover a wider area in different seasons, are deeper or more superficial in different seasons, that different bodies will have the qi of each hole in slightly varying locations. After all, we use body inches to measure hole location, not rulers. The anatomical location is a ballpark location, not an exact locality. This is one of the weaknesses of teaching holes/points according to anatomy. One may get mislead into thinking a hole is a fixed structure rather than a flexible entity.On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 04:27 PM, ga.bates wrote: That is pretty radical isn't it? Are you saying that acupoints change their location on the same body, or that an acupoint on one body may not be the same as an acupoint on another body ?If an acupoint does not have a specific anatomical location, how is one supposed to find it ? Does your response indicate that the Tian Sheng bronze statue for acupuncture of the Sung dynasty is irrelevant ?geo [inandor]09 August 2003 20:09Chinese Medicine Subject: Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?No way , sir. Acupoints change their location. Unless you tatto a full inch square for each point :>))-geo------Mensagem Original-----De: sammy_batesPara: Chinese Medicine Enviada em: Sábado, 9 de Agosto de 2003 14:50Assunto: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints.Any suggestions ? Sam.For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM.Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member.If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 By saying that acupoints have a somewhat indefinable and transitory quality; their position best determined by 'sensing' by a skilled practitioner you are asserting they do actually exist, and are affirming the place of TCM in the scheme of things. That is fine, but for someone looking for tangibles in the theory & practice of TCM it can be a big 'put-off'. <<<You have to realize that for example many Japanese schools believe that points move, and therefore there is no fixed position. Shima claims that text book locations are to be found only in healthy people Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 He used a largish chisel shaped needle to a depth of up to about 1" on the anterior deltoid. >>>Was this with local anesthesia? Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 Is this a wind up? I only joined the group yesterday ! > Sam has sent out way too many emails asking that one question Anyhow, it isn't an OBSESSION, just a simple question. Sorry you missed the point and evidently failed to benefit from some of the good posts that followed. Sam. P.S. Don't you think I looked everywhere before asking , Yellow Pages, Google and so on ? I should tell you now I don't want tattooing with a 'Shaolin Dragon' or other such mythical beast, no matter how sexy they are .. ;-) [sammy Bates] Stacey Sinclair [stacey]10 August 2003 17:52Chinese Medicine Subject: Re: Anyone know a TCM Tattoist ?alls, I know is . Look someone up in the phone book who does tattoos. Ask around who is the best in your area. On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 02:05 PM, YinTangSong wrote: In a message dated 8/9/2003 10:50:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, ga.bates writes:I am looking for someone to tattoo my most frequently used acupoints.Any suggestions ? Sam.what are you asking? how to go about it or who to go to for the tattoos?maya<image.tiff> For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM.Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member.If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groupsí homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ëedit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 i think you are dead wrong with even thinking thatacupoints are mobile & move with either pt to pt orfor the same pt at a different point in time.what is the logic of that.>>>How do you find the points? do you palpate for them? do you feel for anything in particular? If my body is completely different then your, as anybody can tell and may even have bones or tissues missing as compared with yours, why would channels and points be identical? Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 i state we are not normal because some of the things ihave learnt over the years.we should not have any tender points when we areperfectly normal. how many of us have that.we should breathe deeply & fully all the time. howmany of us do that. when we take adeep breath webreathe at least 1.3 - 2.8 times what our normalbreath feels like.we should be calm as a cucumber - i mean mentally & emotionally - are we really just because we can hidebehind the facade of our features & facial expression.we should be sleeping without dreams - how many of usdo.>>>>>This is a basic question between the view of health as a theoretic perfection and the so called norm or average. I have never seen anybody in which i cant find a tender point, and from a knowledge of anatomy i can promise you that you can not either. Its a question of knowing where to press and how to press. I can drug somebody or teach somebody to disassociate form the pain, but measurable pain responses could be documented. There is certainly a difference between the classic CM view of perfections, which as we know was already lost by the time the classics have been written, which to me only illustrates that these ideas are probably more of a romantic idea than reality has ever been, and the clinical reality that we have to work with when we treat a patient. I suggest that the later is the most important Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 press or feel for the point.>>>This is also said in Lingshu Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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