Guest guest Report post Posted August 8, 2003 Varela and Mataurana have an entire book based on the paper published by Shambhala Press. I forget the title. On Friday, August 8, 2003, at 07:20 AM, matt bauer wrote: > >>>Do you have a copy of the paper? > Alon > > Sorry Alon, I don't. I was just repeating a quote of that paper from > Capra's book. I would be out of my league trying to follow the math > such a paper would have anyway. Perhaps Z'ev knows about how to find a > copy. - Matt > - > > Alon Marcus > Chinese Medicine > Thursday, August 07, 2003 7:21 PM > Re: Re: Traditional (TCM) Theory > > A New Scientific Understanding of Living Systems " which comes from two > neuroscientists - Mataurana and Varela - in a paper they wrote > describing " autopoiesis " which means " self-making. " They developed > this model to describe the self-production and regulation of living > systems. This theory was straight Western science, based on > mathematics following a mechanical model (no vitalism): > >>>Do you have a copy of the paper? > Alon > > > For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, > spam messages or flame another member. > > If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. from > individual to a daily digest or none then visit the groups’ homepage: > Chinese Medicine/ From > there, click ‘edit my membership on the right hand side’ and adjust > accordingly. > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 8, 2003 <Reliance on imaging has been one of the biggest problems in allopathic orthopedics.> IMO it is more than just a problem with imaging or orthopedics or even medicine. The trend in medical "science" is to move away from any reliance on "subjective" diagnosing - relying the practitioner's ability to read between the lines and use their brains - to dependence on "objective" analysis that involves machines. Doctors are turning in technicians who are trained to plug people into the right diagnostic machine and then match the remedy to the numbers the machine spits out. Looking deeper at this trend, we find the same thing in education - the powers that be establish the standardized lesson plans that the lowly teachers are expected to carry out. Teachers are no longer being allowed to think for themselves and adjust their lessons to individual students. It seems to me this trend is similar to what happened in industry with the industrial revolution. Goods were once produced by individual, skilled craftspeople then the shift took place in which the elite factory owners instituted the use of mass production machines that lower skill level workers manned. In other words, it is the mighty few who establish the standards for the foot soldiers to carry out. This is happening everywhere, the powerful few sit on top of this pyramid and establish the standards based on statistical analysis (again "objective"), and the doctors, teachers, and blackjack dealers' job is to learn the rule book and carry it out to the letter. I feel sorry for most doctors today who are not given the training and respect to think for themselves. I worry those in the OM field who are in a rush to become "mainstream" or increase our credibility will push us down that same dark path. Matt Bauer - Alon Marcus Chinese Medicine Thursday, August 07, 2003 9:07 PM Re: Re: Traditional (TCM) THeory Reliance on imaging has been one of the biggest problems in allopathic orthopedics. And now I see LAc coming out of these trainings thinking that we need to "use standard of care" wasting tones of money on imaging that often have no relation to the patient's complaints. Instead having the physical exam dictate the need for imaging, the want to "protect" themselves for "legal" reasons. To me the danger of relaying on imaging to explain symptoms is the malpractice. I keep telling them that as a CM medical community we have a different standard of care and that we do not need to become part of the problem. Most just argue, using the brain washing they received without knowledge of the literature. AlonFor practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. from individual to a daily digest or none then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ From there, click ‘edit my membership on the right hand side’ and adjust accordingly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 8, 2003 Marco, Don't you think that if treatment is not based upon TCM theory, then it's no longer TCM, but rather WM using TCM modalities? Yehuda ______________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 8, 2003 Ken, As I've said, Is not Western theory based upon looking at identifying a pathogenic factor, and then going to the arsenal, taking out the appropriate magic bullet, be it the antibiotic, anti-inflamatory, scalpal, or even herb, or even formula, or even needle, etc, and attacking the enemy? Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems pretty clear to me. Yehuda ______________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 8, 2003 Righto, Pat. I like your observation. I, for one, mentioned that CM came to the U.S. in the 1850s as I was musing as to how long it would take for Americans to fully embrace it. As you're noting here, CM and other Asian "cultural substrates" may have been influencing Western culture of their own accord and in their own way for at least that period of time. Our current attention to it on this list certainly has its antecedents in part as you've observed. Thank you for your in-"sight". ;-) Emmanuel Segmen - Pat Ethridge It is interesting (perhaps coincidental?)to note that the emphasis in Western art on "accurate" representation,which began to shift with the development of photography and its highly "technical" depictions, moved more to abstraction and the balance and harmony of interacting elements --- more like CM in its goals? As someone else noted, about the same time (150 years or so ago) that Asian influences began to appear more visibly in the West. I am not proposing a thesis here, merely noting a correspondence. Maybe a shift of mind.Pat Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 8, 2003 Chinese Medicine , " Marco " <bergh@i...> wrote: > Marco: > > No, at least not letter for letter word for word since if that was so they would be even more similar in outlook and make up as healing modalities. > > but, > > What are the differences? > > And similarities? > > What are the Chinese character for theory and related (common) term usage? > > most answers (that I have yet read, gives an interesting elaborate on theory as seen from westerns science but no contrast...) > > The etymology would be interested and Chinese sayings and so forth... > > Maybe when you have time post something on the paradigm learn Chinese list? > > What Emmanuel mentions about studying everyday seams very relevant to Chinese medicine too, but for the same reasons? > > It probably is an historical question in as much that the related concept may have changed with the times? > > Does Chinese medicine demand theory? > > As much as it demands " intrinsic " interactive " configurative " constellations of articulations of a particular dis-ease that is time and space dependent. > > Marco the following is some suggestions to students and juniors. firstly, refer to lingshu 77, tai-i was not a soothsayer. tai-i is the name of a star near the north-pole. tai-i represented the north-pole, and represented earth's rotation axis and also represented the ecliptic's axis in ancient times based on geocentric model. it also was named " heavenly first one " etc. does it mean that chinese midicine theories always be conennected to constellations? unfortunately, ancient chinese did not have modern dictionary and just only used limited words to explain complex things, and they always used names of real things' to represent abstract things. on lingshu 77, ancient chinese used the name tai-i to represent the passage of time. ie. it reads in lingshu 77 " tai-i occupies/resides the house 'qiangmen' " , it actually means that " at the time around vernal equinox " . if they knew western astrology they might wrote that " tai-i occupies/resides the house aries " . accordingly, when you read and interpret the proper nouns which mentioned on cm classics you should pay more attention. you might need to learn something about chinese astronomy first. second, don't be confused by technical terms which used in different arts/studies. for example, both religious taoism and chinese medicine use terms like 'shen', 'hun', 'po', etc. but they give these words completely different definitions respectively. so, those books connect the religions or other arts with cm are not good references to juniors. for example, in toaism 'shen' means soul or spirit; in cm sometimes 'shen' is used to describe a kind of appearances. almost all children have sharp and glary eyes. when you wake a child who falling asleep up, you will find that his eyes are losse. it is a kind of 'wushen (not having shen)', 'shensan'. we can feel it, but we are unable to desciribe it. third, don't get into a dead end, don't take unnecessary pains to study an insignificant problem. for example, chinese medicine practitioner can tell an expectant mother the sex of baby by feeling pulses without ultrasonic equipment, the pulses like rolling balls, and can tell an expectant mother the gestation by feeling pulses on fingers. has western medicine explained the reasons of these phenomena? if not, do you use this knowledge/technique? you don't use it until you get the reason? fourth, jingluo is jingluo, organ is organ. don't confuse spleen jingluo with spleen organ ...... chinese mdicine and western medicine is two completely different systems. it may be better if you see the jingluo as the communication interface or regulating system between organs. no matter what we name it, theories or hypotheses, we should discuss them more for students and juniors ............................................ syho Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 8, 2003 the following is some suggestions to students and juniors.firstly, refer to lingshu 77, tai-i was not a soothsayer. tai-i is thename of a star near the north-pole. tai-i represented the north-pole,and represented earth's rotation axis and also represented theecliptic's axis in ancient times based on geocentric model. it alsowas named "heavenly first one" etc. does it mean that chinese midicinetheories always be conennected to constellations? unfortunately,ancient chinese did not have modern dictionary and just only usedlimited words to explain complex things, and they always used names ofreal things' to represent abstract things. on lingshu 77, ancientchinese used the name tai-i to represent the passage of time. ie. itreads in lingshu 77 "tai-i occupies/resides the house 'qiangmen'", itactually means that "at the time around vernal equinox". if they knewwestern astrology they might wrote that "tai-i occupies/resides thehouse aries". :)accordingly, when you read and interpret the proper nouns whichmentioned on cm classics you should pay more attention. you might needto learn something about chinese astronomy first. :)second, don't be confused by technical terms which used in differentarts/studies. for example, both religious taoism and chinese medicineuse terms like 'shen', 'hun', 'po', etc. but they give these wordscompletely different definitions respectively. so, those books connectthe religions or other arts with cm are not good references tojuniors. for example, in toaism 'shen' means soul or spirit; in cmsometimes 'shen' is used to describe a kind of appearances. almost allchildren have sharp and glary eyes. when you wake a child who fallingasleep up, you will find that his eyes are losse. it is a kind of'wushen (not having shen)', 'shensan'. we can feel it, but we areunable to desciribe it.geo> I think these "suggestions to students and juniors" is a result of ONE particular interpretation. Take "shen" as an example. Shen can indeed be seen through the eyes of the px, but it is an indication. Indication of what? Of the state of the organ of sight, the eyes? Obviously not. It is an indication of something that is going on inside the person. Something very essential related to the "vitality" of the person. How to call it? Spirit? Vitality? Life-Force? I don't know... could indeed be called spirit. Not a spirit dressed in white cloak floating around in dark rooms frightening children, but "spirit" as the living essence. Modern man knows all about technology, but those old people - well... at least I tend to maintain a humble attitude and be open to the possibility that some of them indeed knew much more then we could perhaps imagine. Just some thoughts... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 8, 2003 In a message dated 8/8/2003 9:58:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: They are finding many pathways that can stop the chaos of cells in cancer and are designing drugs that are "non toxic" to change cancer from aggressive progressive disease to a chronic manageable disorder Alon what are they doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2003 Emmanuel I have just talked to a cutting edge cancer MD researcher. According to him the tremendous advances in understanding in aptosis is changing the whole approach. They are finding many pathways that can stop the chaos of cells in cancer and are designing drugs that are "non toxic" to change cancer from aggressive progressive disease to a chronic manageable disorder Alon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2003 My understanding of the CM spleen function is that it is the spleen plus thepancreas in western terms (among other things). In western terms, thepancreas is responsible for secreting many essential digestive enzymes aswell as insulin for regulating blood sugar. It seems to fit with the CMtheoretical functions of what the spleen does.>>>>Yes and in describing the spleen the tissue of pancreas may have been included as an additional "fatty"tissue Alon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2003 ALL, THERE IS ATHEORY FOR ACUPUNCTURE. five element, stems & branches, sheng & ko cycles, different diagnostic schools, tongue, pulse diagnosis, etc. thats all theory its application in raal life. anand --- syho_real <syho wrote: > --- In Chinese Medicine , > " kenrose2008 " > <kenrose2008> wrote: > > All, > > > > > Does the notion of a " theory " in Western > > science conform to the corresponding > > concept in Chinese medicine? And vice versa? > > > > Thanks, for your thoughts. > > > > Ken > > > hi, > > " lilun " > http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/agrep-lindict?query=%B2z%BD%D7 & category=\ full & boo=no & ignore=on & substr=on & order=all > > " li " > http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/agrep-lindict?query=%b2%7a & category=full > > http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Lindict/ > > > syho > > > > > ===== Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville 0402 472 897 ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2003 Shen of the eyes. The primary diagnostic evaluation. More than the miniscule iris or eye wheels. When eyes meet, at elbow of teacher, perceptions are compared. Are they seeing the now, or the conditioned stuffs. The pure yang backs up to overflow the mind, the eyes get bright. Finally the fullnes of the bodyessence and the positive spirit. Then a small change may happen. Today's connotation and influence of pre-logical pre-conceptual sensing, different from ancient animal spirit unless. Snow flew upward, stone statues sang, in silent winter creatures allowed each other to relieve the cry, of perishing. Today's animal spirits disappearing and subconciously we blame ourselves and each other, because conciously we know better. Like the teacher muttering the unintelligable sequence that will make you a real boy in a real space. With a real past and a possible future, is it like mind to like mind. Compassionately robbed of illusion of normalcy. Stripped, and heat in calves like fire but nothing there. Like they say, in a moment of time, a difference is created. geo <inandor wrote: the following is some suggestions to students and juniors.firstly, refer to lingshu 77, tai-i was not a soothsayer. tai-i is thename of a star near the north-pole. tai-i represented the north-pole,and represented earth's rotation axis and also represented theecliptic's axis in ancient times based on geocentric model. it alsowas named "heavenly first one" etc. does it mean that chinese midicinetheories always be conennected to constellations? unfortunately,ancient chinese did not have modern dictionary and just only usedlimited words to explain complex things, and they always used names ofreal things' to represent abstract things. on lingshu 77, ancientchinese used the name tai-i to represent the passage of time. ie. itreads in lingshu 77 "tai-i occupies/resides the house 'qiangmen'", itactually means that "at the time around vernal equinox". if they knewwestern astrology they might wrote that "tai-i occupies/resides thehouse aries". :)accordingly, when you read and interpret the proper nouns whichmentioned on cm classics you should pay more attention. you might needto learn something about chinese astronomy first. :)second, don't be confused by technical terms which used in differentarts/studies. for example, both religious taoism and chinese medicineuse terms like 'shen', 'hun', 'po', etc. but they give these wordscompletely different definitions respectively. so, those books connectthe religions or other arts with cm are not good references tojuniors. for example, in toaism 'shen' means soul or spirit; in cmsometimes 'shen' is used to describe a kind of appearances. almost allchildren have sharp and glary eyes. when you wake a child who fallingasleep up, you will find that his eyes are losse. it is a kind of'wushen (not having shen)', 'shensan'. we can feel it, but we areunable to desciribe it.geo> I think these "suggestions to students and juniors" is a result of ONE particular interpretation. Take "shen" as an example. Shen can indeed be seen through the eyes of the px, but it is an indication. Indication of what? Of the state of the organ of sight, the eyes? Obviously not. It is an indication of something that is going on inside the person. Something very essential related to the "vitality" of the person. How to call it? Spirit? Vitality? Life-Force? I don't know... could indeed be called spirit. Not a spirit dressed in white cloak floating around in dark rooms frightening children, but "spirit" as the living essence. Modern man knows all about technology, but those old people - well... at least I tend to maintain a humble attitude and be open to the possibility that some of them indeed knew much more then we could perhaps imagine. Just some thoughts... For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2003 what are they doing <<<Basically understanding cancer pathways and how to manipulate them Alon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2003 Chinese Medicine , " syho_real " <syho@a...> wrote: > the following is some suggestions to students and juniors. > > firstly, refer to lingshu 77, tai-i was not a soothsayer. tai-i is the > name of a star near the north-pole. tai-i represented the north- pole, > and represented earth's rotation axis and also represented the > ecliptic's axis in ancient times based on geocentric model. it also > was named " heavenly first one " etc. does it mean that chinese midicine > theories always be conennected to constellations? unfortunately, > ancient chinese did not have modern dictionary and just only used > limited words to explain complex things, and they always used names of > real things' to represent abstract things. on lingshu 77, ancient > chinese used the name tai-i to represent the passage of time. ie. it > reads in lingshu 77 " tai-i occupies/resides the house 'qiangmen' " , it > actually means that " at the time around vernal equinox " . if they knew > western astrology they might wrote that " tai-i occupies/resides the > house aries " . > accordingly, when you read and interpret the proper nouns which > mentioned on cm classics you should pay more attention. you might need > to learn something about chinese astronomy first. > > second, don't be confused by technical terms which used in different > arts/studies. for example, both religious taoism and chinese medicine > use terms like 'shen', 'hun', 'po', etc. but they give these words > completely different definitions respectively. so, those books connect > the religions or other arts with cm are not good references to > juniors. for example, in toaism 'shen' means soul or spirit; in cm > sometimes 'shen' is used to describe a kind of appearances. almost all > children have sharp and glary eyes. when you wake a child who falling > asleep up, you will find that his eyes are losse. it is a kind of > 'wushen (not having shen)', 'shensan'. we can feel it, but we are > unable to desciribe it. > > third, don't get into a dead end, don't take unnecessary pains to > study an insignificant problem. for example, chinese medicine > practitioner can tell an expectant mother the sex of baby by feeling > pulses without ultrasonic equipment, the pulses like rolling balls, > and can tell an expectant mother the gestation by feeling pulses on > fingers. has western medicine explained the reasons of these > phenomena? if not, do you use this knowledge/technique? you don't use > it until you get the reason? > > fourth, jingluo is jingluo, organ is organ. don't confuse spleen > jingluo with spleen organ ...... chinese mdicine and western medicine > is two completely different systems. it may be better if you see the > jingluo as the communication interface or regulating system between > organs. > > no matter what we name it, theories or hypotheses, we should discuss > them more for students and juniors > ........................................... > > > syho Hello Syho I just wanted to say thank you for your information and comments. As a beginner I really appreciate these kind of postings. Alwin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2003 Chinese Medicine , anand bapat <acubapat> wrote: > ALL, > THERE IS ATHEORY FOR ACUPUNCTURE. five element, stems > & branches, sheng & ko cycles, different diagnostic > schools, tongue, pulse diagnosis, etc. > thats all theory > its application in raal life. > anand > > hi, unfortunately, many students and juniors don't know the fundamental yin-yang theory and five-element/five-phases theory well. syho Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2003 My understanding of the CM spleen function is that it is the spleen plus thepancreas in western terms (among other things). In western terms, thepancreas is responsible for secreting many essential digestive enzymes aswell as insulin for regulating blood sugar. It seems to fit with the CMtheoretical functions of what the spleen does. geo> Alon, I don't understand your point. In CM Spleen is responsible for the "movement" of Qi in the body, it is many times responsible for something called "phlegm" in the body, mind and emotions. Spleen being an Earth function is responsible for many pathologies involving lack of sympathy in the emotional sphere. It is also responsible for the "flesh" of the muscles. It may be responsible for something called "foggy mind" or "confused thoughts" , obsessions (when pleghm accumulates in the brain). Many Earth pathologies exhibit difficulties in their relations with mother or sun (doughtier). I don't see too much similarities... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2003 Hello SyhoI just wanted to say thank you for your information and comments. As a beginner I really appreciate these kind of postings.Alwin geo> Be on your guard Awin... Next some will tell you that the Sheng and Ko cycles within the five Elements is just a beautiful allegory the Cheinese invented, and has no meaning whatsoever... :>)) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2003 Chinese Medicine , " Marco " <bergh@i...> wrote: > > Marco: > > No, at least not letter for letter word for word since if that was so they would be even more similar in outlook and make up as healing modalities. > > but, > > What are the differences? > > And similarities? > > What are the Chinese character for theory and related (common) term usage? > > most answers (that I have yet read, gives an interesting elaborate on theory as seen from westerns science but no contrast...) > > The etymology would be interested and Chinese sayings and so forth... > > Maybe when you have time post something on the paradigm learn Chinese list? > > What Emmanuel mentions about studying everyday seams very relevant to Chinese medicine too, but for the same reasons? > > It probably is an historical question in as much that the related concept may have changed with the times? > > Does Chinese medicine demand theory? > > As much as it demands " intrinsic " interactive " configurative " constellations of articulations of a particular dis-ease that is time and space dependent. > > Marco hi, students and juniors, the following is some questions to students and juniors. many yijing, chinese astrology books tell us that yin and yang are two forces pushing and pulling each others. and, yang has reached its peak then it begins to wane. should cm see yin and yang are two forces? should cm see them as two natures? YIN YANG, XU SHI, BU XIE. if a patient has symptom of strong yang, and if we see yin yang are two forces pushing and pulling each others, we just only press/weaken/'xie' the yang force to cure the patient. according to the theory " yang has reached its peak then it begins to wane " . maybe we do nothing and the patient will be health because yang has reached its peak then it begins to wane. if a patient has symptom of strong yang, and if we see yin yang are two natures, then the symptom of strong yang may be caused the too strong yang. if so, we should weaken the too strong yang (shi) with the technique 'xie' (to weaken). if it just is false symptom of strong yang because the yin is weakened, then we should use the techniques 'bu' to strengthen/repair the weak yin (xu). if it just only is false symptom of strong yang because the yin is weakened, and if we see yin yang are two forces pushing and pulling each others, and we just only weaken/'xie' the yang force to cure the patient. what is the result? the yin is weakened and the yang is weakened by your cure, that means the whole health quality of the patient is weakened by your cure. does chinese medicine demand theories? should we connect cm with other arts/studies/religions/philosophy/etc.? should we apply one theory to various arts/studies? yeah, we cannot only use the theories YINYANG and XUSHI for cure, so we need five-elements/five-phases theories and more. is five-phases theory beautiful allegory the Cheinese invented? does it realte to " constellations " ? let us discuss them in future. syho Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2003 hi, are you saying there are fixed cancer pathways & the reason why people get cancer. please elaborate anand --- Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > what are they doing > <<<Basically understanding cancer pathways and how > to manipulate them > Alon ===== Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville 0402 472 897 ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2003 In a message dated 8/10/2003 2:25:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: hi, are you saying there are fixed cancer pathways & the reason why people get cancer. please elaborate >>>>The reasons why people get cancer are probably very complicated. What they are saying is that once a patient gets cancer the pathways by which he does are beginning to be understood in great detail. No longer it is a simple lack of the body "defenses" not recognizing cancer, but particular pathways that fail or get activated. They apparently made great advances in understanding these. They have also made great advances at designing drugs that act very locally on a single key step in such processes and thus do not have as much systemic effects which is the reason for side-effects Alon While in school we had an oncologist teach a class. He brought in some slides of cells in various stages of stress. The presentation started out with healthy cells, then cells under stress. Then a greater degree of stress and on. There were five or six stages involved in the presentation all the way to the cancer version of the original cell. What he claimed and I agree with is that the cells will come back to the original healthy state if the reason for the stress is removed and it has a healthy supply of nutrients along with circulation to remove metabolic waste. It may be a stretch to expect some cancer cell to revert back, but I have talked with some who state absolutely the possibility in some forms of cancer. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2003 hi, are you saying there are fixed cancer pathways & the reason why people get cancer.please elaborate>>>>The reasons why people get cancer are probably very complicated. What they are saying is that once a patient gets cancer the pathways by which he does are beginning to be understood in great detail. No longer it is a simple lack of the body "defenses" not recognizing cancer, but particular pathways that fail or get activated. They apparently made great advances in understanding these. They have also made great advances at designing drugs that act very locally on a single key step in such processes and thus do not have as much systemic effects which is the reason for side-effects Alon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2003 Sounds great. I'd like to see research papers on this topic and understand the underlying immune strategies. Emmanuel Segmen - Alon Marcus Chinese Medicine Friday, August 08, 2003 6:56 PM Re: Re: Traditional (TCM) Theory Emmanuel I have just talked to a cutting edge cancer MD researcher. According to him the tremendous advances in understanding in aptosis is changing the whole approach. They are finding many pathways that can stop the chaos of cells in cancer and are designing drugs that are "non toxic" to change cancer from aggressive progressive disease to a chronic manageable disorder AlonFor practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2003 Chinese Medicine , > > Does Chinese medicine demand theory? > > As much as it demands " intrinsic " interactive " configurative " constellations of articulations of a particular dis-ease that is time and space dependent. > hi, all students and juniors, here are some questions to students and juniors. do you feel angry and vexation, when someone attacks your tcm with wm standpoint and theories? what's wrong? if you explain cm with wm theories, they have the right. what's wrong? if you can't explain cm or patients' condition with cm theories, anyone has the right to question. you know that only one simple question can bring out many doubts, say, tell me which tcm classics mentioned it. if you are unable to answer........ why don't you speak like a cm parctitioner? you can't explain cm theories simply and clear? you even don't know fundamental theories?..... ............. syho Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2003 I'd like to see research papers on this topic and understand the underlying immune strategies. >>>The discussions took place during a class reunion of my wife. They do it every other year. If i have a chance to talk to him again i will ask for ref beforehand alon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2003 What he claimed and I agree with is that the cells will come back to the original healthy state >>>>Well they do this millions of times each day. What is changing is that they are now really starting to understand the process when they do not change back to health. And it is different for different kind of cancers and people. Alon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
