Guest guest Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 In a message dated 8/6/2003 11:54:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yateslac writes: Hello: I joined the TCM group but only to receive reports of information, not the discussion but have been receiving a LOT of emails, more than I have time to read. I only want to receive important information, but not ALL of the emails. PLEASE. B. Yates, L.Ac. I joined the Nourishing Destiny group hoping to talk acupuncture. But, Lon dominated the majority of the posts, enforcing his belief about the way people should live their lives. There was so little talk about acupuncture and Lon was single minded about his views, I left. I know others gave up and left also. Given the nature of Lons' posts, many people can't help but reply. It's fun for a while and I am guilty also. Unfortunately, this inevitably leads to a LOT of posts that are off topic and although some find them amusing or intriguing, it will eventually lead to the evacuation of good people who are interested in learning acupuncture and spreading wisdom about the art. I am hoping Lon will let this group stay on purpose. Please, if anyone feels the need to reply to this, please do it to me directly and help keep the off topic posts to a minimum. Thanks, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 HELP HELP HELP NEEDED hi, i study shivambu - urine therapy or in the west referred to as auto urine therapy. we do have a site called shivambu . since we are having afreee for all discussion - i had problems with evaluation of urine. there are over 100 odd ingredients in urine which i need to quantify. the present testing regime available is only testing about 20 of these ingredients. does anyone know a means of testing the urine completely for all its ingredients. please help if you can. thanks amnand --- em412 wrote: > Dear Chris > > Well Said > I am a chatroomshy TCM student (about enter the 2nd > yr of a 5 yr course in > London) & an optometrist, so I would have replied > offline anyway.... I've > enjoyed reading your post & I hope you don't leave > the forum. I'm sure there are > many many people like myself, who are passively > observing & learning but not > contributing, & the content of your post has been > illuminating. > > On a separate note, (which I wouldn't have > volunteered separately had it not > been for this (re-Lon's) post)), I know that Biolab > Medical Unit in London do > 'sweat tests' for metal toxicity & also deficiencies > like Mg & Zn, inter > alia. Their web address is www.biolab.co.uk. & they > are a very reputable unit > with excellent diagnostic success. I assume you're > in the States so I don't know > how useful sweat tests would be, however they do > do hair analysis also & > would know about technique & reproducibility. > > With every good wish > Esther > ===== Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville Clinics ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 In a message dated 8/7/2003 4:41:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, acubapat writes: HELP HELP HELP NEEDED hi, i study shivambu - urine therapy or in the west referred to as auto urine therapy. we do have a site called shivambu . since we are having afreee for all discussion - i had problems with evaluation of urine. there are over 100 odd ingredients in urine which i need to quantify. the present testing regime available is only testing about 20 of these ingredients. does anyone know a means of testing the urine completely for all its ingredients. please help if you can. thanks amnand There is a process called chromatography that that gives the compounds and how much of the compounds are in a liquid. Many herbal companies use it to verify the authenticity of a plant along with quality. You could do a search of labs in your area and see if you have someone local to do it for you. Good luck, Chris PS This is of interest to me also. Yo could pass the results along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 hi, we have been guided to chromatography & that seems the best option at present. but there are limitations as i have been informed so far. the problem is one needs to know what are the ingredients so that the appropriate columns can be attached to the chromatography equipment. what i have been informed is also that the chromatograph will give us a level of the item but not be able to quantify exactly. we will need to compare with a pure item & then make gestimates of how much quantity there may be for the identified items. so still in abit of limbo re: trying this strategy as we nhave found great results with clinical work with shivambu. but we are unable to try & document the active ingredients that are influencing change for the patient. seems abit of a stab in the dark. besides chromatography equipment is quite expensive. thanks a lot. see if you can help any more bye anand --- Musiclear wrote: > In a message dated 8/7/2003 4:41:34 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > acubapat writes: > > > HELP HELP HELP NEEDED > > > > hi, > > i study shivambu - urine therapy or in the west > > referred to as auto urine therapy. > > we do have a site called shivambu . > > since we are having afreee for all discussion - i > had > > problems with evaluation of urine. > > there are over 100 odd ingredients in urine which > i > > need to quantify. the present testing regime > available > > is only testing about 20 of these ingredients. > > does anyone know a means of testing the urine > > completely for all its ingredients. > > please help if you can. > > thanks > > amnand > > There is a process called chromatography that > that gives the compounds > and how much of the compounds are in a liquid. Many > herbal companies use it > to verify the authenticity of a plant along with > quality. > You could do a search of labs in your area > and see if you have someone > local to do it for you. > > Good luck, > Chris > > PS This is of interest to me also. Yo could > pass the results along. > ===== Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville Clinics ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 any machine, now or in the tentative future, will atempt to see what the human designer believes to exist.anand bapat <acubapat wrote: hi,we have been guided to chromatography & that seems thebest option at present. but there are limitations as ihave been informed so far.the problem is one needs to know what are theingredients so that the appropriate columns can beattached to the chromatography equipment.what i have been informed is also that thechromatograph will give us a level of the item but notbe able to quantify exactly. we will need to comparewith a pure item & then make gestimates of how muchquantity there may be for the identified items.so still in abit of limbo re: trying this strategy aswe nhave found great results with clinical work withshivambu. but we are unable to try & document theactive ingredients that are influencing change for thepatient.seems abit of a stab in the dark. besideschromatography equipment is quite expensive.thanks a lot. see if you can help any morebye anand --- Musiclear wrote: > In a message dated8/7/2003 4:41:34 PM Eastern> Daylight Time, > acubapat writes:> > > HELP HELP HELP NEEDED> > > > hi,> > i study shivambu - urine therapy or in the west> > referred to as auto urine therapy.> > we do have a site called shivambu .> > since we are having afreee for all discussion - i> had> > problems with evaluation of urine.> > there are over 100 odd ingredients in urine which> i> > need to quantify. the present testing regime> available> > is only testing about 20 of these ingredients.> > does anyone know a means of testing the urine> > completely for all its ingredients.> > please help if you can.> > thanks> > amnand> > There is a process called chromatography that> that gives the compounds > and how much of the compounds are in a liquid. Many> herbal companies use it > to verify the authenticity of a plant along with> quality.> You could do a search of labs in your area> and see if you have someone > local to do it for you.> > Good luck,> Chris> > PS This is of interest to me also. Yo could> pass the results along. > =====Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville Clinics______________________Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. from individual to a daily digest or none then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ From there, click ‘edit my membership on the right hand side’ and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 This has many possiilities, but,any machine, now or in the tentative future, will atempt to see what the human designer believes to exist.(or even more closely, what can be billed for).anand bapat <acubapat wrote: hi,we have been guided to chromatography & that seems thebest option at present. but there are limitations as ihave been informed so far.the problem is one needs to know what are theingredients so that the appropriate columns can beattached to the chromatography equipment.what i have been informed is also that thechromatograph will give us a level of the item but notbe able to quantify exactly. we will need to comparewith a pure item & then make gestimates of how muchquantity there may be for the identified items.so still in abit of limbo re: trying this strategy aswe nhave found great results with clinical work withshivambu. but we are unable to try & document theactive ingredients that are influencing change for thepatient.seems abit of a stab in the dark. besideschromatography equipment is quite expensive.thanks a lot. see if you can help any morebye anand --- Musiclear wrote: > In a message dated8/7/2003 4:41:34 PM Eastern> Daylight Time, > acubapat writes:> > > HELP HELP HELP NEEDED> > > > hi,> > i study shivambu - urine therapy or in the west> > referred to as auto urine therapy.> > we do have a site called shivambu .> > since we are having afreee for all discussion - i> had> > problems with evaluation of urine.> > there are over 100 odd ingredients in urine which> i> > need to quantify. the present testing regime> available> > is only testing about 20 of these ingredients.> > does anyone know a means of testing the urine> > completely for all its ingredients.> > please help if you can.> > thanks> > amnand> > There is a process called chromatography that> that gives the compounds > and how much of the compounds are in a liquid. Many> herbal companies use it > to verify the authenticity of a plant along with> quality.> You could do a search of labs in your area> and see if you have someone > local to do it for you.> > Good luck,> Chris> > PS This is of interest to me also. Yo could> pass the results along. > =====Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville Clinics______________________Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. from individual to a daily digest or none then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ From there, click ‘edit my membership on the right hand side’ and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 Hi Anand, I'm a biochemist who was hired by Min Tong Herbs in 1991 where I worked until 1994, December. Part of my work was to promulgate the notion that molecular markers are just that ... markers. They are not "active ingredients" unless specific bio-assays are done in human clinical trials to show that those molecules do precisely what the whole formula does. This has not been shown with any formula that I know of nor even attempted with the markers of any formula. Nor have all of the molecules been characterized from any one herb extract much less any one formula extract. The whole plethora of marketing in the early 1990s regarding standardized herbs and levels of specific markers was just that ... marketing. Not science ... and definitely not Chinese medicine. If you do a Medline search now for effective actions of CM formulas you'll find thousands upon thousands of papers. The look at formulas and clinical outcomes or sometimes at specific effects on tissues or clinical lab data. If the mechanism of action of the formula is referred to, they generally say "unknown". Back in the early 1990s Dr. Chiang of Min Tong Herbs was one of the pioneers for establishing molecular markers for each of his single herb extracts in order to qualify his company under international GMP rules. It was never his intention to use this information regarding markers to sell herbs, but rather to do responsible GMP work in his factory. The work you suggest regarding analytical chemistry is a long term project for a whole biochemistry lab. Also you will have to cope with the reality that changes in diet, exercise and a multitude of other factors will greatly effect the presence of molecules in the urine. That's why only a very limited number of molecules in urine are ever tested for in pathology labs with the hope of seeing something clinically significant. Your notion of "active ingredients" also has to be looked at from so many other standpoints. For example, you only know of "activity" with regard to current research. How will you test what is active? For instance some steroid molecules like estrogen achieve greater activity in the presence of progesterone. How will you test for synergies and counter-synergies? If you have only 100 molecules, try calculating 100 factorial to see the number of molecular interactions. That's why we don't do research on the molecular ingredients of herbs formulas except to test individual molecules ... which then have little or no meaning with regard to the formula. No reasonable scientist would imagine that one out of a thousands molecules is the reason the herb formula works. Which guy won World War II? Wouldn't you be put out a bit if it was determined that the guy sitting next you in the office with the "active ingredient" of your company? I'm just joking around and don't mean to be rude. I hope this stream of thought is helpful to you. Emmanuel Segmen - anand bapat Chinese Medicine Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:47 PM Re: Re: Traditional (TCM) Re: (TCM) discussions-lon hi,we have been guided to chromatography & that seems thebest option at present. but there are limitations as ihave been informed so far.the problem is one needs to know what are theingredients so that the appropriate columns can beattached to the chromatography equipment.what i have been informed is also that thechromatograph will give us a level of the item but notbe able to quantify exactly. we will need to comparewith a pure item & then make gestimates of how muchquantity there may be for the identified items.so still in abit of limbo re: trying this strategy aswe nhave found great results with clinical work withshivambu. but we are unable to try & document theactive ingredients that are influencing change for thepatient.seems abit of a stab in the dark. besideschromatography equipment is quite expensive.thanks a lot. see if you can help any morebye anand --- Musiclear wrote: > In a message dated8/7/2003 4:41:34 PM Eastern> Daylight Time, > acubapat writes:> > > HELP HELP HELP NEEDED> > > > hi,> > i study shivambu - urine therapy or in the west> > referred to as auto urine therapy.> > we do have a site called shivambu .> > since we are having afreee for all discussion - i> had> > problems with evaluation of urine.> > there are over 100 odd ingredients in urine which> i> > need to quantify. the present testing regime> available> > is only testing about 20 of these ingredients.> > does anyone know a means of testing the urine> > completely for all its ingredients.> > please help if you can.> > thanks> > amnand> > There is a process called chromatography that> that gives the compounds > and how much of the compounds are in a liquid. Many> herbal companies use it > to verify the authenticity of a plant along with> quality.> You could do a search of labs in your area> and see if you have someone > local to do it for you.> > Good luck,> Chris> > PS This is of interest to me also. Yo could> pass the results along. > =====Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville Clinics______________________Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. from individual to a daily digest or none then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ From there, click ‘edit my membership on the right hand side’ and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 look, the chemical to energy therapuetic conection will maybe Never be quite satisfactory. BUT, the long term applications of TCM herbal therapy have fostered and/or eliminated useful clinical models and data. Just like the supposed 3rd(?) level (on population) drug trials are supposed to validate, but western drs worldwide never report adverse effects for fear of being bounced. (like many of TCM dr already are used to. so don't give me that old crap. grow up.)Emmanuel Segmen <susegmen wrote: Hi Anand, I'm a biochemist who was hired by Min Tong Herbs in 1991 where I worked until 1994, December. Part of my work was to promulgate the notion that molecular markers are just that ... markers. They are not "active ingredients" unless specific bio-assays are done in human clinical trials to show that those molecules do precisely what the whole formula does. This has not been shown with any formula that I know of nor even attempted with the markers of any formula. Nor have all of the molecules been characterized from any one herb extract much less any one formula extract. The whole plethora of marketing in the early 1990s regarding standardized herbs and levels of specific markers was just that ... marketing. Not science ... and definitely not Chinese medicine. If you do a Medline search now for effective actions of CM formulas you'll find thousands upon thousands of papers. The look at formulas and clinical outcomes or sometimes at specific effects on tissues or clinical lab data. If the mechanism of action of the formula is referred to, they generally say "unknown". Back in the early 1990s Dr. Chiang of Min Tong Herbs was one of the pioneers for establishing molecular markers for each of his single herb extracts in order to qualify his company under international GMP rules. It was never his intention to use this information regarding markers to sell herbs, but rather to do responsible GMP work in his factory. The work you suggest regarding analytical chemistry is a long term project for a whole biochemistry lab. Also you will have to cope with the reality that changes in diet, exercise and a multitude of other factors will greatly effect the presence of molecules in the urine. That's why only a very limited number of molecules in urine are ever tested for in pathology labs with the hope of seeing something clinically significant. Your notion of "active ingredients" also has to be looked at from so many other standpoints. For example, you only know of "activity" with regard to current research. How will you test what is active? For instance some steroid molecules like estrogen achieve greater activity in the presence of progesterone. How will you test for synergies and counter-synergies? If you have only 100 molecules, try calculating 100 factorial to see the number of molecular interactions. That's why we don't do research on the molecular ingredients of herbs formulas except to test individual molecules ... which then have little or no meaning with regard to the formula. No reasonable scientist would imagine that one out of a thousands molecules is the reason the herb formula works. Which guy won World War II? Wouldn't you be put out a bit if it was determined that the guy sitting next you in the office with the "active ingredient" of your company? I'm just joking around and don't mean to be rude. I hope this stream of thought is helpful to you. Emmanuel Segmen - anand bapat Chinese Medicine Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:47 PM Re: Re: Traditional (TCM) Re: (TCM) discussions-lon hi,we have been guided to chromatography & that seems thebest option at present. but there are limitations as ihave been informed so far.the problem is one needs to know what are theingredients so that the appropriate columns can beattached to the chromatography equipment.what i have been informed is also that thechromatograph will give us a level of the item but notbe able to quantify exactly. we will need to comparewith a pure item & then make gestimates of how muchquantity there may be for the identified items.so still in abit of limbo re: trying this strategy aswe nhave found great results with clinical work withshivambu. but we are unable to try & document theactive ingredients that are influencing change for thepatient.seems abit of a stab in the dark. besideschromatography equipment is quite expensive.thanks a lot. see if you can help any morebye anand --- Musiclear wrote: > In a message dated8/7/2003 4:41:34 PM Eastern> Daylight Time, > acubapat writes:> > > HELP HELP HELP NEEDED> > > > hi,> > i study shivambu - urine therapy or in the west> > referred to as auto urine therapy.> > we do have a site called shivambu .> > since we are having afreee for all discussion - i> had> > problems with evaluation of urine.> > there are over 100 odd ingredients in urine which> i> > need to quantify. the present testing regime> available> > is only testing about 20 of these ingredients.> > does anyone know a means of testing the urine> > completely for all its ingredients.> > please help if you can.> > thanks> > amnand> > There is a process called chromatography that> that gives the compounds > and how much of the compounds are in a liquid. Many> herbal companies use it > to verify the authenticity of a plant along with> quality.> You could do a search of labs in your area> and see if you have someone > local to do it for you.> > Good luck,> Chris> > PS This is of interest to me also. Yo could> pass the results along. > =====Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville Clinics______________________Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. from individual to a daily digest or none then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ From there, click ‘edit my membership on the right hand side’ and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 I've read and re-read your post and think I have possibly mis-assumed your position. Is molecular analysis(assuming a plant is what it should be) the final word on efficacy, or clinical trials? If either is the standard then allopathic med is the biggest violators of the rules.mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: look, the chemical to energy therapuetic conection will maybe Never be quite satisfactory. BUT, the long term applications of TCM herbal therapy have fostered and/or eliminated useful clinical models and data. Just like the supposed 3rd(?) level (on population) drug trials are supposed to validate, but western drs worldwide never report adverse effects for fear of being bounced. (like many of TCM dr already are used to. so don't give me that old crap. grow up.)Emmanuel Segmen <susegmen wrote: Hi Anand, I'm a biochemist who was hired by Min Tong Herbs in 1991 where I worked until 1994, December. Part of my work was to promulgate the notion that molecular markers are just that ... markers. They are not "active ingredients" unless specific bio-assays are done in human clinical trials to show that those molecules do precisely what the whole formula does. This has not been shown with any formula that I know of nor even attempted with the markers of any formula. Nor have all of the molecules been characterized from any one herb extract much less any one formula extract. The whole plethora of marketing in the early 1990s regarding standardized herbs and levels of specific markers was just that ... marketing. Not science ... and definitely not Chinese medicine. If you do a Medline search now for effective actions of CM formulas you'll find thousands upon thousands of papers. The look at formulas and clinical outcomes or sometimes at specific effects on tissues or clinical lab data. If the mechanism of action of the formula is referred to, they generally say "unknown". Back in the early 1990s Dr. Chiang of Min Tong Herbs was one of the pioneers for establishing molecular markers for each of his single herb extracts in order to qualify his company under international GMP rules. It was never his intention to use this information regarding markers to sell herbs, but rather to do responsible GMP work in his factory. The work you suggest regarding analytical chemistry is a long term project for a whole biochemistry lab. Also you will have to cope with the reality that changes in diet, exercise and a multitude of other factors will greatly effect the presence of molecules in the urine. That's why only a very limited number of molecules in urine are ever tested for in pathology labs with the hope of seeing something clinically significant. Your notion of "active ingredients" also has to be looked at from so many other standpoints. For example, you only know of "activity" with regard to current research. How will you test what is active? For instance some steroid molecules like estrogen achieve greater activity in the presence of progesterone. How will you test for synergies and counter-synergies? If you have only 100 molecules, try calculating 100 factorial to see the number of molecular interactions. That's why we don't do research on the molecular ingredients of herbs formulas except to test individual molecules ... which then have little or no meaning with regard to the formula. No reasonable scientist would imagine that one out of a thousands molecules is the reason the herb formula works. Which guy won World War II? Wouldn't you be put out a bit if it was determined that the guy sitting next you in the office with the "active ingredient" of your company? I'm just joking around and don't mean to be rude. I hope this stream of thought is helpful to you. Emmanuel Segmen - anand bapat Chinese Medicine Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:47 PM Re: Re: Traditional (TCM) Re: (TCM) discussions-lon hi,we have been guided to chromatography & that seems thebest option at present. but there are limitations as ihave been informed so far.the problem is one needs to know what are theingredients so that the appropriate columns can beattached to the chromatography equipment.what i have been informed is also that thechromatograph will give us a level of the item but notbe able to quantify exactly. we will need to comparewith a pure item & then make gestimates of how muchquantity there may be for the identified items.so still in abit of limbo re: trying this strategy aswe nhave found great results with clinical work withshivambu. but we are unable to try & document theactive ingredients that are influencing change for thepatient.seems abit of a stab in the dark. besideschromatography equipment is quite expensive.thanks a lot. see if you can help any morebye anand --- Musiclear wrote: > In a message dated8/7/2003 4:41:34 PM Eastern> Daylight Time, > acubapat writes:> > > HELP HELP HELP NEEDED> > > > hi,> > i study shivambu - urine therapy or in the west> > referred to as auto urine therapy.> > we do have a site called shivambu .> > since we are having afreee for all discussion - i> had> > problems with evaluation of urine.> > there are over 100 odd ingredients in urine which> i> > need to quantify. the present testing regime> available> > is only testing about 20 of these ingredients.> > does anyone know a means of testing the urine> > completely for all its ingredients.> > please help if you can.> > thanks> > amnand> > There is a process called chromatography that> that gives the compounds > and how much of the compounds are in a liquid. Many> herbal companies use it > to verify the authenticity of a plant along with> quality.> You could do a search of labs in your area> and see if you have someone > local to do it for you.> > Good luck,> Chris> > PS This is of interest to me also. Yo could> pass the results along. > =====Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville Clinics______________________Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. from individual to a daily digest or none then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ From there, click ‘edit my membership on the right hand side’ and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 Hello M., I don't have any position here, except for the hope for CM to flourish in my country. Clinical trials are how we observe some efficacy about WM. Chemical analysis provides no information regarding efficacy. It has erroneously been used in the natural products industry as a marketing device. I was trying to help Anand understand the size of his proposed project. Regarding "final words" these are mine for this evening. Emmanuel Segmen - mystir Chinese Medicine Thursday, August 07, 2003 9:52 PM Re: Re: Traditional (TCM) Re: (TCM) discussions-lon I've read and re-read your post and think I have possibly mis-assumed your position. Is molecular analysis(assuming a plant is what it should be) the final word on efficacy, or clinical trials? If either is the standard then allopathic med is the biggest violators of the rules.mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: look, the chemical to energy therapuetic conection will maybe Never be quite satisfactory. BUT, the long term applications of TCM herbal therapy have fostered and/or eliminated useful clinical models and data. Just like the supposed 3rd(?) level (on population) drug trials are supposed to validate, but western drs worldwide never report adverse effects for fear of being bounced. (like many of TCM dr already are used to. so don't give me that old crap. grow up.)Emmanuel Segmen <susegmen wrote: Hi Anand, I'm a biochemist who was hired by Min Tong Herbs in 1991 where I worked until 1994, December. Part of my work was to promulgate the notion that molecular markers are just that ... markers. They are not "active ingredients" unless specific bio-assays are done in human clinical trials to show that those molecules do precisely what the whole formula does. This has not been shown with any formula that I know of nor even attempted with the markers of any formula. Nor have all of the molecules been characterized from any one herb extract much less any one formula extract. The whole plethora of marketing in the early 1990s regarding standardized herbs and levels of specific markers was just that ... marketing. Not science ... and definitely not Chinese medicine. If you do a Medline search now for effective actions of CM formulas you'll find thousands upon thousands of papers. The look at formulas and clinical outcomes or sometimes at specific effects on tissues or clinical lab data. If the mechanism of action of the formula is referred to, they generally say "unknown". Back in the early 1990s Dr. Chiang of Min Tong Herbs was one of the pioneers for establishing molecular markers for each of his single herb extracts in order to qualify his company under international GMP rules. It was never his intention to use this information regarding markers to sell herbs, but rather to do responsible GMP work in his factory. The work you suggest regarding analytical chemistry is a long term project for a whole biochemistry lab. Also you will have to cope with the reality that changes in diet, exercise and a multitude of other factors will greatly effect the presence of molecules in the urine. That's why only a very limited number of molecules in urine are ever tested for in pathology labs with the hope of seeing something clinically significant. Your notion of "active ingredients" also has to be looked at from so many other standpoints. For example, you only know of "activity" with regard to current research. How will you test what is active? For instance some steroid molecules like estrogen achieve greater activity in the presence of progesterone. How will you test for synergies and counter-synergies? If you have only 100 molecules, try calculating 100 factorial to see the number of molecular interactions. That's why we don't do research on the molecular ingredients of herbs formulas except to test individual molecules ... which then have little or no meaning with regard to the formula. No reasonable scientist would imagine that one out of a thousands molecules is the reason the herb formula works. Which guy won World War II? Wouldn't you be put out a bit if it was determined that the guy sitting next you in the office with the "active ingredient" of your company? I'm just joking around and don't mean to be rude. I hope this stream of thought is helpful to you. Emmanuel Segmen - anand bapat Chinese Medicine Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:47 PM Re: Re: Traditional (TCM) Re: (TCM) discussions-lon hi,we have been guided to chromatography & that seems thebest option at present. but there are limitations as ihave been informed so far.the problem is one needs to know what are theingredients so that the appropriate columns can beattached to the chromatography equipment.what i have been informed is also that thechromatograph will give us a level of the item but notbe able to quantify exactly. we will need to comparewith a pure item & then make gestimates of how muchquantity there may be for the identified items.so still in abit of limbo re: trying this strategy aswe nhave found great results with clinical work withshivambu. but we are unable to try & document theactive ingredients that are influencing change for thepatient.seems abit of a stab in the dark. besideschromatography equipment is quite expensive.thanks a lot. see if you can help any morebye anand --- Musiclear wrote: > In a message dated8/7/2003 4:41:34 PM Eastern> Daylight Time, > acubapat writes:> > > HELP HELP HELP NEEDED> > > > hi,> > i study shivambu - urine therapy or in the west> > referred to as auto urine therapy.> > we do have a site called shivambu .> > since we are having afreee for all discussion - i> had> > problems with evaluation of urine.> > there are over 100 odd ingredients in urine which> i> > need to quantify. the present testing regime> available> > is only testing about 20 of these ingredients.> > does anyone know a means of testing the urine> > completely for all its ingredients.> > please help if you can.> > thanks> > amnand> > There is a process called chromatography that> that gives the compounds > and how much of the compounds are in a liquid. Many> herbal companies use it > to verify the authenticity of a plant along with> quality.> You could do a search of labs in your area> and see if you have someone > local to do it for you.> > Good luck,> Chris> > PS This is of interest to me also. Yo could> pass the results along. > =====Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville Clinics______________________Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. from individual to a daily digest or none then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ From there, click ‘edit my membership on the right hand side’ and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 In a message dated 8/8/2003 7:35:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, attiliodalberto writes: (like many of TCM dr already are used to. so don't give me that old crap. grow up.) Please, no use of bad language or the flaming of another member! Attilio Interesting post, but what are you referencing? Who are you talking to? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 (like many of TCM dr already are used to. so don't give me that old crap. grow up.) Please, no use of bad language or the flaming of another member! Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 I apologize to whole group. Sometimes my mouth shoots off before my brain is loaded. <attiliodalberto wrote: (like many of TCM dr already are used to. so don't give me that old crap. grow up.)Please, no use of bad language or the flaming of another member!AttilioFor practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. from individual to a daily digest or none then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ From there, click ‘edit my membership on the right hand side’ and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 Dear Mystir, It was to me that you directed your remark. I wanted to take a moment to say that I like what's in your brain when it is loaded. ;-) You've made some clearly insightful remarks. Let's recycle those cyber-bytes into further discussions. Then there's no harm done. All the Best, Emmanuel Segmen - mystir Chinese Medicine Friday, August 08, 2003 10:37 AM Re: Re: Traditional (TCM) Re: (TCM) discussions-lon I apologize to whole group. Sometimes my mouth shoots off before my brain is loaded. <attiliodalberto wrote: (like many of TCM dr already are used to. so don't give me that old crap. grow up.)Please, no use of bad language or the flaming of another member!AttilioFor practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. from individual to a daily digest or none then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ From there, click ‘edit my membership on the right hand side’ and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 Chemical analysis provides no information regarding efficacy. <<<<Except for designer drugs Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 hi emmanuel, thanks for that.i am aware that there may be more than one active ingredient. besides there are also interactions like you mentioned. but if we can narrow our study down to a few ingredientsa somehow we could then study them easily i hope i can find funds & someone to assist. will await that help. bey anand --- mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: > look, the chemical to energy therapuetic conection > will maybe Never be quite satisfactory. BUT, the > long term applications of TCM herbal therapy have > fostered and/or eliminated useful clinical models > and data. Just like the supposed 3rd(?) level (on > population) drug trials are supposed to validate, > but western drs worldwide never report adverse > effects for fear of being bounced. (like many of > TCM dr already are used to. so don't give me that > old crap. grow up.) > > Emmanuel Segmen <susegmen wrote: > Hi Anand, > > I'm a biochemist who was hired by Min Tong Herbs in > 1991 where I worked until 1994, December. Part of > my work was to promulgate the notion that molecular > markers are just that ... markers. They are not > " active ingredients " unless specific bio-assays are > done in human clinical trials to show that those > molecules do precisely what the whole formula does. > This has not been shown with any formula that I know > of nor even attempted with the markers of any > formula. Nor have all of the molecules been > characterized from any one herb extract much less > any one formula extract. The whole plethora of > marketing in the early 1990s regarding standardized > herbs and levels of specific markers was just that > ... marketing. Not science ... and definitely not > Chinese medicine. If you do a Medline search now > for effective actions of CM formulas you'll find > thousands upon thousands of papers. The look at > formulas and clinical outcomes or sometimes at > specific effects on tissues or clinical lab data. > If the mechanism of action of the formula is > referred to, they generally say " unknown " . Back in > the early 1990s Dr. Chiang of Min Tong Herbs was one > of the pioneers for establishing molecular markers > for each of his single herb extracts in order to > qualify his company under international GMP rules. > It was never his intention to use this information > regarding markers to sell herbs, but rather to do > responsible GMP work in his factory. > > The work you suggest regarding analytical chemistry > is a long term project for a whole biochemistry lab. > Also you will have to cope with the reality that > changes in diet, exercise and a multitude of other > factors will greatly effect the presence of > molecules in the urine. That's why only a very > limited number of molecules in urine are ever tested > for in pathology labs with the hope of seeing > something clinically significant. Your notion of > " active ingredients " also has to be looked at from > so many other standpoints. For example, you only > know of " activity " with regard to current research. > How will you test what is active? For instance some > steroid molecules like estrogen achieve greater > activity in the presence of progesterone. How will > you test for synergies and counter-synergies? If > you have only 100 molecules, try calculating 100 > factorial to see the number of molecular > interactions. That's why we don't do research on > the molecular ingredients of herbs formulas except > to > test individual molecules ... which then have > little or no meaning with regard to the formula. No > reasonable scientist would imagine that one out of a > thousands molecules is the reason the herb formula > works. Which guy won World War II? Wouldn't you be > put out a bit if it was determined that the guy > sitting next you in the office with the " active > ingredient " of your company? I'm just joking > around and don't mean to be rude. I hope this > stream of thought is helpful to you. > > Emmanuel Segmen > - > anand bapat > Chinese Medicine > Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:47 PM > Re: Re: Traditional > (TCM) Re: (TCM) discussions-lon > > > hi, > we have been guided to chromatography & that seems > the > best option at present. but there are limitations as > i > have been informed so far. > the problem is one needs to know what are the > ingredients so that the appropriate columns can be > attached to the chromatography equipment. > what i have been informed is also that the > chromatograph will give us a level of the item but > not > be able to quantify exactly. we will need to compare > with a pure item & then make gestimates of how much > quantity there may be for the identified items. > so still in abit of limbo re: trying this strategy > as > we nhave found great results with clinical work with > shivambu. but we are unable to try & document the > active ingredients that are influencing change for > the > patient. > seems abit of a stab in the dark. besides > chromatography equipment is quite expensive. > thanks a lot. see if you can help any more > bye anand > > > > --- Musiclear wrote: > In a message dated > 8/7/2003 4:41:34 PM Eastern > > Daylight Time, > > acubapat writes: > > > > > HELP HELP HELP NEEDED > > > > > > hi, > > > i study shivambu - urine therapy or in the west > > > referred to as auto urine therapy. > > > we do have a site called > shivambu . > > > since we are having afreee for all discussion - > i > > had > > > problems with evaluation of urine. > > > there are over 100 odd ingredients in urine > which > > i > > > need to quantify. the present testing regime > > available > > > is only testing about 20 of these ingredients. > > > does anyone know a means of testing the urine > > > completely for all its ingredients. > > > please help if you can. > > > thanks > > > amnand > > > > There is a process called chromatography > that > > that gives the compounds > > and how much of the compounds are in a liquid. > Many > > herbal companies use it > > to verify the authenticity of a plant along with > > quality. > > You could do a search of labs in your area > > and see if you have someone > > local to do it for you. > > > > Good luck, > > Chris > > > > PS This is of interest to me also. Yo > could > > pass the results along. > > > > ===== > Anand Bapat > Pain Management Specialist > Sports Injury Specialist > Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville > Clinics > > > ______________________ > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? > Get the FREE > Messenger http://uk.messenger./ > > > For practitioners, students and those interested in > TCM. > > Membership requires that you do not post any > commerical, religious, spam messages or flame > another member. > > If you want to change the way you receive email > message, i.e. from individual to a daily digest or > none then visit the groups’ homepage: > Chinese Medicine/ > From there, click ‘edit my membership on the right > hand side’ and adjust accordingly. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 What would be the point of such a study if the few isolated chemicals didn't give a complete picture of how the herbal medicinals work? On Friday, August 8, 2003, at 08:17 PM, anand bapat wrote: > hi emmanuel, > thanks for that.i am aware that there may be more than > one active ingredient. besides there are also > interactions like you mentioned. > but if we can narrow our study down to a few > ingredientsa somehow we could then study them easily > i hope i can find funds & someone to assist. > will await that help. > bey > anand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.