Paradigms of evidence

[Guest guest]

Ken wrote:

Nor does anything that we discover have any slightesthope or expectation of ever changing its status.One of the curious characteristics of theChinese medical paradigm...based as it ison the Chinese thinking paradigm...is theway in which this mystery is woven intothe whole fabric of thought. This is oneof the key ways in which the epistemologycontained in various Daoist texts has,I believe, profoundly influenced thehistory and development of Chinese medicine.What is a mystery?

 

Ken,

 

Say, no more. I love a mystery.

 

I would say Bingo regarding your comments that getting the computer work done will ever change our status ... unless someone begins to write poetry with their micropipettes. For me as a practicing poet, anywhere outside of San Francisco and a very few other places in the U.S. is a remarkably low world culture. No, lab work will not change our status. Even if the lab work got automated and the results were turned in during my son's life time, Linus Pauling (or even his son Crellin Pauling) will not have had tea or played mahjong with the Yellow Emperor. And that's the bottom line. Lab work will further Western science. It will not connect wei qi with zheng qi. That's your point coming from Chinese culture, and that's my point coming from Western science.

 

I actually wonder how many people on list realize that Linus Pauling discovered (or you could say invented the concept of)the chemical bond before which there was no chemistry per se. Ask any graduate student in physics, this is just the current mythology (or mythos) upon which we choose to feel confidence regarding the actions we take in medicine, agribusiness and whatever else chemistry supports. Since CM does not ascribe to this mythos, many here feel we must hurry up and apply the mythos as fast as possible to CM. I don't believe there is any emergency here. CM will not bleed out.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

[Guest guest]

Even if the lab work got automated and the results were turned in during my son's life time, Linus Pauling (or even his son Crellin Pauling) will not have had tea or played mahjong with the Yellow Emperor.

>>>>>I love this

Alon

[Guest guest]

Emmanuel wrote: Even if the lab work got automated and the results were turned in during my son's life time, Linus Pauling (or even his son Crellin Pauling) will not have had tea or played mahjong with the Yellow Emperor.

 

>>>>I love this

 

Alon

 

Wow! I'm honored you caught my drift. So far we've agreed that the student of WM and CM can be the same person. We both seem to like that idea. Now we've agreed that WM and CM as cultural and scientific paradigms are separate pathways even when they cross the same thresholds and the same horizons. No matter how hard they work at knowing one another, each one's achievements of greater knowledge or horizons will be defined from within their own domains. It's my own further contention that they can inspire each other's growth and development ... mostly I sense it's CM that will inspire WM. But I'm more than willing to slide over and give you space on this same coin.

 

You won't hurt my feelings if you sense I've overstepped the bounds of propriety here. If you feel like objecting to my projection that we've agreed, feel free.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

[Guest guest]

Todd -

 

Firstly - the comments about insurance impact of the ephedra fiasco are not CSOMA's. They come from manufacturers who are unable to find insured sources of ephedra. The manufacturers also noted that the lawyers who are advertising to get phen-phen cases are now also advertising for ephedra cases. If a patient were to sue which is possible, the products will have no insurance coverage as a backup. Characterizing this commentary as a war cry from CSOMA is misleading, you might get the tape and give it a listen so as to avoid further distortion.

Best regards,

 

Will

 

CSOMA's war cry might be a little shrill here. I can see this affecting product liability insurance, but malpractice carriers tell me that they adjust rates based upon an analysis of actual incidents. Since there are no ephedrae incidents in the profession of which I am aware, the rate is zero. Has anyone actually heard from their carrier that ma huang has been deleted from their policy coverage? And is it really legal to not cover the use of ma huang in the absence of any incidents? Could a malpractice carrier not cover the use of a drug because of its dangers even if was FDA approved and highly touted for its effects. In a competitive environmewnt like the USA, I wouldn't be surprised if some smalltime insurer sees an opportunity, actually investigates the matter and sees there is nothing to worry about. Then he undercuts the big guys and we are back in business. Who knows how it will go? Perhaps an amusing irony for the raw herb enthusiasts among us is that ma huang is easy to grow.

If you grow it and you use it safely, then no one will be the wiser. :-)

 

 

 

William R. Morris, OMD

Secretary, AAOM

Dean of Clinical Education

Emperor's College of TOM

310-453-8383

[Guest guest]

No matter how hard they work at knowing one another, each one's achievements of greater knowledge or horizons will be defined from within their own domains.

 

Emmanuel

>>>>>While they certainly do. At the same time because they are both looking at the same phenomenon there must be a uniting thread (acknowledging that reality can to some extent be in the eye of the beholder). I do believe that if one is not dogmatically insisting the terms (especially as they have to do with CM) are obsolete concepts, that much in common is to be found, and as you say they can inform each other.

Since I like the concepts of testing theories to look for reproducibility I at this point of my development I prefer to see CM go through such processes.I want to see more centers reproducing clinical studies to see if they get the same results etc.

 

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

No matter how hard they work at knowing one another, each one's achievements of greater knowledge or horizons will be defined from within their own domains

>>>Perhaps

Alon

[Guest guest]

"Emmanuel Segmen" wrote:mostly I sense it's CM that will inspire WM. me too.Todd

 

Thank you, for your note of congruence.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

[Guest guest]

No matter how hard they work at knowing one another, each one's achievements of greater knowledge or horizons will be defined from within their own domains. (Re: WM and CM)

 

Emmanuel

 

>>>>While they certainly do. At the same time because they are both looking at the same phenomenon there must be a uniting thread (acknowledging that reality can to some extent be in the eye of the beholder). I do believe that if one is not dogmatically insisting the terms (especially as they have to do with CM) are obsolete concepts, that much in common is to be found, and as you say they can inform each other.

 

Since I like the concepts of testing theories to look for reproducibility I at this point of my development I prefer to see CM go through such processes.I want to see more centers reproducing clinical studies to see if they get the same results etc.

 

Alon

 

Yes, Alon. Understood. That is your motivation and what makes you yourself. We agree that WM and CM should both exist in your head and each should evolve in your understanding as you use both in your practice. You may want to see each science render the other science sound according to each one's own first principles. I, for one, do not see the evolution of each science as irrelevant or obsolete. First principles are first principles. Since they each start with different first principles, then where and how are they to conform? Trees have branches and birds have wings. Through which principles shall the tree fly? Some birds do molt or lose their feathers sort of like deciduous trees losing their leaves. Would we mixing first principles erroneously if we tried to compare the falling of leaves with the molting of feathers? It's kind of tempting, but I sense this would be an error. That was my point many months ago that I did think it appropriate to view herbal medicine according to the same pharmacological principles that we view our molecular medicines. Herbal decoctions have way too many molecules (both known and unknown) and way too many interactions. As further noted, I said that herbal medicine may (it's not known) bring about not only pharmacological actions but also subsequent physiological actions. It might in fact be limited in most or many cases to physiological actions ... much as essential nutrients are acting as coenzymes, cofactors and required substrates for biosynthesis. Just one formula, bu zhong yi qi tang was studied for 10 years at three institutions in Taipei, Tokyo and Beijing, and in those 10 years no one got up the courage to even attempt to characterize all of the molecular peaks in the HPLC fingerprint.

 

So with so little known in Western terms, it's hard to create a parallel assessment between WM and CM. I think what you are asking for is a parallel assessment if only regarding such things as the herb formula. A parallel assessment is not possible in terms of diagnosis because the first principles do not yet correlate. Lab work and pulse/tongue diagnosis ... how do you get them to run parallel with each other? Wei qi/zheng qi and acquired immunity. Can these be compared by parallel analyses?

 

I haven't thought about this specific instance too hard. This is just off the top of my head. Do you have anything to add?

 

Emmanuel Segmen

[Guest guest]

how do you get them to run parallel with each other?

>>>

Emmanuel I do not you can get them to run parallel. But points of interactions can be found. For example symptoms.

Alon

[Guest guest]

does that effect the whole notion of"testing theories". What are we testinga theory for that doesn't make any slightestclaim to provide any sort of statisticalresult?>>>>Can we then sell it as a predictable products for medical care? that is what we need to show in the west

Alon

[Guest guest]

Yes WM has in the last few years become more & more holistic, but I don't believe this has anything to do with CM.

>>>>Is osteopathy part of WM. It is just as holistic as CM?, Is functional medicine part of WM?, is naturaphay part of WM?

 

Alon

[Guest guest]

"Emmanuel Segmen" wrote:> mostly I sense it's CM that will inspire WM. > > me too.> E & T,I actually don't see this.. Has CM influenced WM in any `real' way yet? -

 

Hi Jason,

 

My point was not that CM has influenced WM or that it's likely to do so in the short term. I agree with your comments. My point is that it's CM's length and breadth of time and historical influence that will likely in the long term be something that we Westerners will have to reckon with. As long as Shanghai Hospital #1 can perform open heart and transplant surgeries without chemical anaesthesia using only acupuncture, even WM surgeons will have to reckon with those better surgical outcomes. No, your right. I'd reiterate that in our lifetime, CM's influence may be minimal here in America. Heck, here in the U.S., we're having a hard time "seeing" what's food and what's nutrition. We're pretty insulated by our "cargo" of entertainment. Chinese culture and CM have been here in America since the 1850s. How long will it take for CM to have legitimacy here? Well, a little longer ... and maybe never from the perspective of WM's current paradigm. That's why I suggest that it's for CM to influence WM, not the other way around.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

[Guest guest]

furthermore, I don't see how through these CM has or will change WM.>>>I have not said it would change. I was commenting on the "holistic"issue, although as far as acupuncture it already has changed. Much of what we do in the so-called medical approaches to acupuncture are highly influenced by osteopathic research on somatovisceral, facilitated segments etc.

Alon

[Guest guest]

Hi Alon,

 

Of course, osteopathy, naturopathy, and chiropractic for that matter must

be considered part of the paradigm of western medicine. For what is

their approach: attack symptoms, the old " magic bullet " scenario, just

using more gentle methods than regular allopathy.

 

Isn't what CM does different in that yes, acute problems when necessary

are addressed, but isn't the underlying goal to use the body's own

gauges: tongue, pulse, nails, eyes, face,etc, to create balance: sedate

the excess, supplement the deficient, evacuate the unwelcome, and unblock

the congested?

 

Though they may want to, do any of the modalities philosphically and

clinically do that? I don't think so. Therefore, to use the term:

holistic (from the root meaning healing) or wholistic (meaning to treat

and heal the whole body) is just an exercise in semantics. The root of

the differences is so fundimental, that I feel that we are doing

ourselves a disservice by equating our medicine with theirs.

 

Yehuda

 

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[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

I agree that our marketing presentation both to the public, the media and

the allopaths (I lump them all together: MDs, osteopaths, chiropractors,

naturopaths for reasons explained in my previous posts), greatly impacts

our dissemination, and ultimately, our freedom to practice. Therefore,

generally, the language we use for publicity purposes, MUST be couched in

western terms (with the possible exception of enlightened locations, such

as the Republic of Santa Monica ). BUT, within our own community, we

must not allow ourselves to fall prey to the trap of practicing their

medicine. In the '60s, the expression: " Think Yiddish,dress British "

was an analogous situation. I'll explain privately to those who don't

get it.

 

Yehuda

 

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[Guest guest]

For what istheir approach: attack symptoms, the old "magic bullet" scenario, justusing more gentle methods than regular allopathy.>>>>Yehoda i am sorry but you do not know anything about osteopathy. It is just as whole as CM. It uses almost identical pillars for assessing health from emotional, spiritual, environmental, energetic, physiologic, etc. Read a little on it. I thought you did cranial work. An osteopath doing it right checks for balance of all the systems to an extent that has all the depth of CM. There is somatic, visceral, cranial, circulatory, reparatory, systems all of which are checked and addressed by many techniques such as cranial functional, cranial direct, cranial fluid, somatic muscle energy, somatic functional, visceral direct and indirect among many others. There is work documenting effects in internal medical problems, emotional and somatic problems. Unfortunaly it is hard to find good osteopaths.

Alon

[Guest guest]

The schools don't seem to care because they have no economic incentive to care.

 

 

 

Hi Warren et al -

While I agree the schools have little economic incentive, I believe they do care. A Masters Degree in OM is roughly $100-$120 per quarter unit whereas the average national per quarter unit is $550...and that is often subsidized. The ability of acupuncture schools to pay adequate salaries to faculty is directly related to the cost of doing business vs. revenue stream.

I took a cut in salary as a six figure a year practitioner in order to give back to the field. It was also selfish, I wanted to get back into a stream of senior influential practitioners from China, something we are fortunate to have at Emperor's College. So here I sit as Academic Dean having given up a portion if my retirement in order to contribute to program development, faculty development and serve in professional organizations. And it feels weird to be demonized along with the schools since I do administrate, teach and practice in one.

I offer this as an example not a complaint, because I feel truly happy and aligned with my destiny, committed to the development of this medicine.

 

Best regards,

 

Will

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/9/2003 6:22:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kenrose2008 writes:

 

 

Businesses exist in order to pursue and exploit

economic benefits, right?

 

I can understand that the individuals within

a business might be motivated by "care".

But it is harder for me to get the idea

of a business "caring" about, well, anything.

 

I can understand what a business cares about

by observing the conduct and overall behavior

of that business. Of course, this is true of

individuals as well.

 

So here are my questions:

 

What do you see that the schools care about

beyond their economic incentives?

 

In the case of your school, what actions has it taken that demonstrate this care?

 

 

 

Ken -

I am tempted to not take the time to respond to this note as I am not inclined to defend schools. The general cynicism is warranted when it comes to Council of Colleges activities against professional efforts to raise standards in California.

 

But since you challenge I will defend against my better judgment.

 

1. Emperor's College funds my presence in the AAOM by allowing substantial amounts of time from my workload in service to the profession. They have also funded me to attend the Little Hoover Commission and the Visioning Search task force - these are vital to the shape this profession will take in the near future and take considerable amounts of time.

 

2. The school actively funds the presence of Dr Qiao on the accreditation commission, another vital component of our professional sustenance.

 

3. The school operates at a loss public service at the Los Angeles Free Clinic and at local detox centers.

 

4. The school is actively pushing funds into a faculty development program we call Emperor's College Teaching and Learning Fellowship

 

5. There are those in the organization whose job it is to count beans. It would be silly to consider fiscal irresponsibility a virtue.

 

6. Upper management at the school are highly motivated and committed, I attend a medical education program at USC, Dr Qiao just completed her MPH at UCLA and David Lee has entered the EdD at UCLA. This management triad gives up weekends, evenings and personal life to develop the school into the best it can possibly be.

 

7. We finally have a Chinese language teacher who can get the students using correct tones, a dictionary and an idea of etymology - this has never been possible before with any prior teachers. I am very happy with this development.

 

8. The program is following the case-based, problem based learning models and cultivating the virtue of reflection in medical education similar to that being promoted in the major medical schools at this time.

 

9. The program is heavy in electives so students may pursue areas of individual interest This way they can study the deeper mysteries of pulse diagnosis, Chinese language, or spend time in the lineage of Hong Liu if Qi Gung if that is of interest.

10. The school provides rotations for medical students in the Introduction to Clinical Medicine course. The objective of this program is to improve communication and understanding between OM and Western providers. It is hoped that when they see the rational method of TCM that includes diagnosis treatment plan and treatment that they understand and trust and thus can refer. This program takes substantive staff time to shepherd.

 

I don't think any business can afford to place it's various customer bases out of mind or to 'not care.' This includes students, patients, faculty, and administrators. But, a small organization that is understaffed and has tight funding (did you see the numbers on my last post?) can only do so much. Yes there are areas where we can do better. For one I think graduate placement in hospitals would be great. However, if you recall, our doctoral is about to gain full approval and graduates will exit with hospital privileges and research skills. This way they can make contributions to this culture and the furthering of Chinese medicine as a real presence in the West.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Will

[Guest guest]

You said you agreed that the schools had little economic incentive

to improve quality but that they cared anyway.

 

Ken,

 

I should rephrase that. Schools do have an economic incentive to care. If they don't, they will wither away. Also, I should clarify, I was attempting to demonstrate that the schools are not impersonal business machines without care. Rather, they are about people - and those people care; they maintain fiduciary responsibility to the life and sustenance of the institution. That said, I am aware of owners who have improperly distributed funds thus placing an institution at risk. This would be a material example of not caring. But institutions or businesses as you suggested have no caring. However, the people are breathing and vital....they care.

 

I have another question.

 

Can you give a ballpark figure as to

how much money your school spends on the

various efforts and initiatives described

in your reply? I'm not asking for an accounting. Just trying again to somehow

come to grips with the notion of

care about such issues and how it acutally manifests in real world terms.

 

What percentage, for example, of the

gross income of your school is spent

on the various activities you describe?

 

This is not information I am privileged to distribute, suffice to say it is substantial. I think the activities speak for themselves.

 

 

 

Do you know how this compares to other

schools?

With the economy in poor condition and

with the resulting pressures on income,

are any of the programs and initiatives

you mention in jeopardy of losing their

funding? I guess what I'm trying to get

at here is a sense of priority of

committments on the part of the management.

 

 

We are committed to our Master's degree program and services. As the doctoral program unfolds competencies in the areas of teaching and research will be attained as well as deepened awareness of systems-based medicine. Part of how this will be accomplished is through expanding the program at Los Angeles Free Clinic and other area hospitals. None of these programs are in jeopardy.

Is there a general sense among the various

schools, either formally or informally,

of what constitutes caring about the

profession? And if so, can you summarize

it?

 

 

I cannot speak for other schools. I know the team at Emperor's is deeply dedicated and the previous email gives some detail as to what is occurring. You can read our catalog for specifics such as mission statement and program objectives.

But remember the schools exist along with the profession. This community has many facets and it is time to focus on that which unifies and empowers us or divided we fall.

 

Best regards,

 

Will

[Guest guest]

An interesting new book from osteopathy is Roberf Fulford, D.O. and the

Philosopher Physician, published by Eastland Press. You can download a

chapter from the eastlandpress.com website. Very similar ideas to

Chinese medicine.

 

The point I got from Yehuda's e-mail was not that the philosophical

model of osteopathy wasn't holistic, but its present-day practice. I

know a few osteopaths who do practice according to the underlying

principles, but most are just using medications.

 

 

On Friday, August 8, 2003, at 07:29 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> >>>>Yehoda i am sorry but you do not know anything about osteopathy.

> It is just as whole as CM. It uses almost identical pillars for

> assessing health from emotional, spiritual, environmental, energetic,

> physiologic, etc. Read a little on it. I thought you did cranial work.

> An osteopath doing it right checks for balance of all the systems to

> an extent that has all the depth of CM. There is somatic, visceral,

> cranial, circulatory, reparatory, systems all of which are checked and

> addressed by many techniques such as cranial functional, cranial

> direct, cranial fluid, somatic muscle energy, somatic functional,

> visceral direct and indirect among many others. There is work

> documenting effects in internal medical problems, emotional and

> somatic problems. Unfortunaly it is hard to find good osteopaths.

> Alon

[Guest guest]

The issue gets complex very quickly. We have established licensing

boards, commissions and exams that having locked the profession into

using specific textbooks, many of which are outdated or now inferior in

content or terminology, forcing the schools into using certain formats

and texts to guarantee the passing of exams. While, practically

speaking, a school and its teachers need to have the incentive for its

students to pass exams, it does inhibit educational progress to have a

primarily informational model without depth of thinking or clinical

application.

 

 

On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 08:34 AM, wsheir wrote:

 

:

> I agree with your post 100%. I like your term " bastardization of the

> profession " because this is exactly what is happening. The schools

> don't seem to care because they have no economic incentive to care.

>

> Warren

[Guest guest]

While I agree with you, Warren, I'd be interested in some specific

examples of MSU in the classroom. You don't need to mention specific

teachers, just incidents that you are aware of.

 

 

On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 04:37 PM, wsheir wrote:

 

> Will:

> When I said the schools don't seem to care I was only talking about

> the proliferation of MSU. PCOM is equally commited to curriculum

> developement and I don't complain about teacher salaries because I

> agree with your assessments. It's the bastardization of the medicine

> that bothers me . And the schools seem to turn a blind eye to it.

> Warren

[Guest guest]

Dear Alon,

 

Yes there are some wonderful wholistic osteopaths, who have great

success in achieving balance in the body, and there are many wonderful

cranio-osteopaths,those who follow the path of Sutherland in research

and practice, and for that matter there are many wonderful and

innovative paths in chiropractic and naturopathy as well. I do agree

with you, though, that I was inacurate in lumping classical osteopaths

together with MDs. There is no question that resolving " osteopathic

lesions " can resolve global systemic problems. But again, isn't that

really, still looking for the magic bullet? And practically, don't most

osteopaths practice as wannabe MDs? With all due respect, it is my

impression, from what I have read and seen, that no system is as

completely integrative in its foundation as traditional Chinese medicine.

Now mind you, I speak primarily of diagnosis, philosophy and

terminology. In terms of treatment, I think that especially here in the

West, we have available all kinds of wonderful alternative treatments

can be integrated to augment our success as practitioners. However, I

stand by my original contention that philosophically our medicine is

unique and different.

sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

PS. The CranioSacral therapy and SomatoEmotional release, that I

practice is quite different (much more gentle) than Cranio-osteopathy and

SOT as practiced by chiropractors. If you are interested in reading

about it check out www.upledger.com.

 

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[Guest guest]

Warren,

I wasn't aware of this situation, and I am very disappointed to hear

it. I agree 100% we should be teaching core Chinese medical cirriculum

first, with the other stuff as dessert.

 

 

On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 11:54 PM, wsheir wrote:

 

> Z'ev:

> On more than one occasion within the last couple of months (and this

> happens on a regular basis)I have become aware that entire three hour

> points classes have been devoted to muscle testing. Now you can think

> what you will about muscle testing but we teach in a school where the

> students' hands on Chinese Medical diagnostic skills are woefully

> lacking.And they are the first to admit it.How about a three hour

> class in pulse diagnosis or abdominal palpation, etc? Also the entire

> orthopedic acu class(42 hours)is based on motor point theory, not TCM

> channel theory, which the students are never exposed to hands on. I

> could go on and on. I think you get my point. I'm for teaching Chinese

> medicine in a Chinese medicine school. If students want to do outside

> workshops on whatever, that's on them. But they first need to learn

> Chinese medicine, and with all the western medicine now getting thrown

> at Pcom students I am seeing a generally more intelligent group of

> students leaving school with minimal understanding of Chinese

> medicine.

> Warren

>

> -- In , " "

> <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

>> While I agree with you, Warren, I'd be interested in some specific

>> examples of MSU in the classroom. You don't need to mention

> specific

>> teachers, just incidents that you are aware of.

>>

>>

>> On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 04:37 PM, wsheir wrote:

>>

>>> Will:

>>> When I said the schools don't seem to care I was only talking

> about

>>> the proliferation of MSU. PCOM is equally commited to curriculum

>>> developement and I don't complain about teacher salaries because I

>>> agree with your assessments. It's the bastardization of the

> medicine

>>> that bothers me . And the schools seem to turn a blind eye to it.

>>> Warren

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Warren, Z'ev and others at PCOM: why don't the students complain to the

Dean, and why doesn't the Dean visit the classrooms to make sure what is

going on in there? Do students fill out evaluation forms? Why would such a

professor be allowed to teach once it were known that he/she taught three

hours of muscle testing instead of acupuncture points?

 

Julie

 

 

> Warren,

> I wasn't aware of this situation, and I am very disappointed to hear

> it. I agree 100% we should be teaching core Chinese medical cirriculum

> first, with the other stuff as dessert.

>

>

> On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 11:54 PM, wsheir wrote:

>

> > Z'ev:

> > On more than one occasion within the last couple of months (and this

> > happens on a regular basis)I have become aware that entire three hour

> > points classes have been devoted to muscle testing. Now you can think

> > what you will about muscle testing but we teach in a school where the

> > students' hands on Chinese Medical diagnostic skills are woefully

> > lacking.And they are the first to admit it.How about a three hour

> > class in pulse diagnosis or abdominal palpation, etc? Also the entire

> > orthopedic acu class(42 hours)is based on motor point theory, not TCM

> > channel theory, which the students are never exposed to hands on. I

> > could go on and on. I think you get my point. I'm for teaching Chinese

> > medicine in a Chinese medicine school. If students want to do outside

> > workshops on whatever, that's on them. But they first need to learn

> > Chinese medicine, and with all the western medicine now getting thrown

> > at Pcom students I am seeing a generally more intelligent group of

> > students leaving school with minimal understanding of Chinese

> > medicine.

> > Warren