Guest guest Posted April 10, 2003 Report Share Posted April 10, 2003 Whilst on the subject of identifying kidney yin deficiency, I believe I read something early on which confused me. Michael Tierra's article appears to suggest that kidney yin includes the glucocorticoid hormones cortisol - and my horse has a raised cortisol, so how could he been yin deficient? But, in reading the following article I later saw what I think is a more accurate picture - cortisol is a hormone that *marshalls* the yin reserves of the body, it facilitates the *using* of yin. Surely that makes it very much a yang hormone? This makes much more sense. Cushings (constant raised cortisol) I believe is a condition which is described as yin deficient, and in horses the only cause of rank diabetes, also a yin deficiency syndrome. So my horses raised cortisol I believe is the Kidneys' response to the body crying ' I need more yin - supply it to me!!!' . This would explains why he can have a high serum cortisol and yet a low stress response - his Kidneys are busy running overtime just to keep up the supply of yin to the body, and they have no instant 'reserves' left to mount an adaptive stress response. Make sense?? Here's some snips from the article which put this in perspective for me: " Also of interest here is the importance of the Chinese concept of Yin and the physiological explanation of this concept in Western terms. Although some aspects of the body, such as the fluids, the substance of the body, and the parasympathetic nervous system, all of which form separate parts of the Yin, may be readily explainable in Western terms, consideration of Yin as constituting the reserves of the body may not be so clear, especially in a Western context. Yin reserves however, are of vital importance if we are to retain our ability to fully adapt to stressful or emergency situations. In Western terms, the concept of Yin as representing bodily reserves compares with adrenal reserve capacity which seems to determine our adaptive capacity or the amount of adaptive energy we each possess. While the quantity of these adrenal reserves seems to depend upon adrenal size ( ie Yin ), in traditional Chinese medicine, Kidney ( adrenal ) Essence is also claimed to be the source of the Yin ( and Qi and Yang ) of the body. The fact that traditional Chinese medicine claims that the Yang of the body originates from the Kidney ( adrenal ) and also, according to the Five Elements theory, from the Heart ( thyroid ) , is interesting in view of the Yang nature of adrenalin and thyroxine. A simple example of Yin deficiency which most of us have experienced at some stage of our lives relates to the consequences of becoming over tired. Who has not wondered why, when we become exhausted from lack of sleep, we suddenly become more energetic. We get a " second wind " even though we are exhausted. This is Yin deficiency due to lack of sleep, which is the fundamental Yin tonic ( 9 ), just as exercise is a Yang tonic ( 9 ). Even though we seem to have increased energy, it should be noted that this " energy " is ultimately unsustainable due to the fact that it is based upon a depletion of the Yin reserves of the body. It is vital that this distinction between normal energy and the unfocused energy of Yin depletion becomes more readily recognised in the West. As is so aptly noted by Tierra ( 9 ), in the West where there is a general obsession with everything Yang ( ie. energy, drive, aggression, use of stimulants), the concept of Yin deficiency is little understood. The " energy " or Yang which results from Yin deficiency, which incidentally is claimed to be equivalent to excess Vata in the Ayurvedic system ( 9 ), tends to be unfocused, scattered and unsustainable ( 9 ). Yang must be grounded in Yin. Even though this is patently obvious, since without Yin (substance, fluids, reserves, etc.) there can be no Yang, it is amazing that this point receives little recognition in the West. The prevailing Western mind-set tends to suggest that stimulants will do no harm, no matter how long they are taken. Stimulants of course, draw upon the reserves of the body ( Yin ). This is also true of Yang hormones such as adrenalin, cortisol, and thyroxine. Although there is a perception today that stimulants and adaptive hormones have the ability to increase the stamina and energy of the body by " magic " , that is, without any physiological cost, nothing could be further from the truth. Even though the healthy person is very adaptable and may tolerate this stimulation or adaptation for considerable periods of time, there is a physiological price to pay. The Yin reserves of the body will eventually become depleted. There is clearly a point beyond optimum health and vitality which involves utilisation of bodily reserves. In TCM this is the point where Yang becomes excessive and damages the Yin. Unfortunately, the person who requires stimulation and instant short term gratification is amply provided for by modern society. As is the case with money however, constant withdrawal of reserves may have very serious consequences!! After all, the person with exhausted reserves will hardly be in a position to cope with new demands!!! When it comes to adaptive hormones such as cortisol we know that it derives its adaptive stamina enhancing effects by mobilising reserves ( Yin ) in the body. ....... The comparison here between modern science and TCM is indeed enlightening. While science has approached this matter from a reductionist perspective and identified the mechanisms behind these various effects, the holistic approach of TCM on the other hand is much more wide ranging, encompassing the effects upon the entire body. Medical science for instance, is much more likely to see bone loss as an isolated symptom or side effect with no implications for the metabolism of the body as a whole, even in spite of the fact that osteoporosis has been linked to elevation of endogenous cortisol levels ( 28, 29 ). Whereas elevated cortisol levels were once utilised by the body to enable us to cope with emergency situations, to save us from the hungry lion for instance, today, in contemptuous disregard of their wide ranging adaptive and Yin mobilising effects, cortisone type drugs are used by modern medicine to treat the symptoms of all manner of diseases. The central adaptive effects of cortisone may even be described as " side effects. " The expectation that adaptive reserve mobilising hormones such as cortisol could be used indefinitely to suppress symptoms of chronic diseases without addressing the underlying cause demonstrates a fundamental and most disturbing misunderstanding of the body and its adaptive processes. " Sounds like what my horse went through on a spleen/qi tonic formula which did not support the kidneys? The site this came from has a very interesting article on chronic fatigue too. Also on Jing or essence which is held by the kidneys from another site: " While Western doctors define the problems associated with menopause as stemming solely from estrogen deficiency, in Chinese medicine estrogen, along with other hormones, is subsumed within the larger category of internal secretions known as Essence (jing). ..... In John Lee, M.D.'s descriptive definition, it is striking how easily the term Essence (jing) can be substituted for steroid: " Steroid [hormones] stabilize, energize, nurture our cells and tissues, ensure repair and replication of vital tissue, protect us against damage, and foster the genesis and development of a new life to carry on our species. " The same functions performed by the hypothalamic-pituitary axis-the capacity to grow, mature, reproduce, maintain stability, generate blood and marrow, adapt to stress, repair body tissues-are governed by the Kidney. Inherited and acquired Essence, pooled within the reservoir of the Kidney, are stored and dispensed as needed. All other organ systems live downstream from this inland sea, dependent on its supply Makes sense to me? Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2003 Report Share Posted April 10, 2003 Jackie, Are you picking up on this post below - it is months old - can't see any other reference to KY deficiency ? Has the horse been castrated? I understand Don's geldings like to still 'make wood' but this seems unusual - maybe not ? Was castration done well before puberty Don ? [ Don usually manages to come up with something that completely throws me so wait for it .. ;-] I wonder Jackie if your horse was castrated, did it take place during or after puberty ? If a transitional phase in growth or adult sex status was interrupted by castration the gelding might suffer more from Kidney Yin deficiency. However, a castrated male will likely suffer Yang deficiency as well - lack of energy et .. - so I am probably on the wrong track with castration, because you would have mentioned it surely. Just a thought I needed to put words to. Now, If Not castrated And K. Yin deficient Then probably K. Yang deficient too. Although the K. Yang deficiency will not be so apparent it might be evident in a lowered sex drive or general 'lack of interest'. Being a 'city boy' I don't get to see horses a great deal but it would seem to me pretty easy to determine whether a horse was 'interested'. I have experience with hamsters and they can tell you a lot about the way they feel - what they like or dislike and what they expect from you - just by observing their behaviour. Horses are social animals, does he get to see other horses ? Finally, have you thought about specific Yin-Yang tonifying formulae to try ? Sammy. -START-Original Message-18 November 2002 01:27--- jackie [jackie] 18 November 2002 01:27 Chinese Traditional Medicine Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: Kydney syndrome at root? > 1. Kidney Yin deficiency can lead to hyperactive heart fire > or `deficiency fire' as it is known. This is because the Kidney- > Bladder system has a natural inhibitory link to the Heart-Small > Intestine system but when Yin/Yang get separated in the Kidney, not > enough Yin goes up to the Heart with the Yang so the inhibition is > incomplete and dysfunctional. This manifests as irregular heart beat, > palpitations and insomnia. The corresponding emotion is lack of > happiness or despondency. I have never seen tongue changes in a horse really - never looked for them of course! No heartbeat irregularity ever noticed, horses don't sleep much so that's no help.The mare was starting to look a bit despondant in the last year or so of her life - the young horse generally gets angry rather than sad, or is too wiped out to show any emotion in his very bad times. I can't say I've ever seen him truly despondant, except maybe when his mum died. Palpitations ar -END-Original Message-18 November 2002 01:27--- jackie [jackie] 10 April 2003 21:18 Chinese Traditional Medicine [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Kidney yin and cortisol Whilst on the subject of identifying kidney yin deficiency, I believe I read something early on which confused me. Michael Tierra's article appears to suggest that kidney yin includes the glucocorticoid hormones cortisol - and my horse has a raised cortisol, so how could he been yin deficient? But, in reading the following article I later saw what I think is a more accurate picture - cortisol is a hormone that *marshalls* the yin reserves of the body, it facilitates the *using* of yin. Surely that makes it very much a yang hormone? This makes much more sense. Cushings (constant raised cortisol) I believe is a condition which is described as yin deficient, and in horses the only cause of rank diabetes, also a yin deficiency syndrome. So my horses raised cortisol I believe is the Kidneys' response to the body crying ' I need more yin - supply it to me!!!' . This would explains why he can have a high serum cortisol and yet a low stress response - his Kidneys are busy running overtime just to keep up the supply of yin to the body, and they have no instant 'reserves' left to mount an adaptive stress response. Make sense?? Here's some snips from the article which put this in perspective for me: " Also of interest here is the importance of the Chinese concept of Yin and the physiological explanation of this concept in Western terms. Although some aspects of the body, such as the fluids, the substance of the body, and the parasympathetic nervous system, all of which form separate parts of the Yin, may be readily explainable in Western terms, consideration of Yin as constituting the reserves of the body may not be so clear, especially in a Western context. Yin reserves however, are of vital importance if we are to retain our ability to fully adapt to stressful or emergency situations. In Western terms, the concept of Yin as representing bodily reserves compares with adrenal reserve capacity which seems to determine our adaptive capacity or the amount of adaptive energy we each possess. While the quantity of these adrenal reserves seems to depend upon adrenal size ( ie Yin ), in traditional Chinese medicine, Kidney ( adrenal ) Essence is also claimed to be the source of the Yin ( and Qi and Yang ) of the body. The fact that traditional Chinese medicine claims that the Yang of the body originates from the Kidney ( adrenal ) and also, according to the Five Elements theory, from the Heart ( thyroid ) , is interesting in view of the Yang nature of adrenalin and thyroxine. A simple example of Yin deficiency which most of us have experienced at some stage of our lives relates to the consequences of becoming over tired. Who has not wondered why, when we become exhausted from lack of sleep, we suddenly become more energetic. We get a " second wind " even though we are exhausted. This is Yin deficiency due to lack of sleep, which is the fundamental Yin tonic ( 9 ), just as exercise is a Yang tonic ( 9 ). Even though we seem to have increased energy, it should be noted that this " energy " is ultimately unsustainable due to the fact that it is based upon a depletion of the Yin reserves of the body. It is vital that this distinction between normal energy and the unfocused energy of Yin depletion becomes more readily recognised in the West. As is so aptly noted by Tierra ( 9 ), in the West where there is a general obsession with everything Yang ( ie. energy, drive, aggression, use of stimulants), the concept of Yin deficiency is little understood. The " energy " or Yang which results from Yin deficiency, which incidentally is claimed to be equivalent to excess Vata in the Ayurvedic system ( 9 ), tends to be unfocused, scattered and unsustainable ( 9 ). Yang must be grounded in Yin. Even though this is patently obvious, since without Yin (substance, fluids, reserves, etc.) there can be no Yang, it is amazing that this point receives little recognition in the West. The prevailing Western mind-set tends to suggest that stimulants will do no harm, no matter how long they are taken. Stimulants of course, draw upon the reserves of the body ( Yin ). This is also true of Yang hormones such as adrenalin, cortisol, and thyroxine. Although there is a perception today that stimulants and adaptive hormones have the ability to increase the stamina and energy of the body by " magic " , that is, without any physiological cost, nothing could be further from the truth. Even though the healthy person is very adaptable and may tolerate this stimulation or adaptation for considerable periods of time, there is a physiological price to pay. The Yin reserves of the body will eventually become depleted. There is clearly a point beyond optimum health and vitality which involves utilisation of bodily reserves. In TCM this is the point where Yang becomes excessive and damages the Yin. Unfortunately, the person who requires stimulation and instant short term gratification is amply provided for by modern society. As is the case with money however, constant withdrawal of reserves may have very serious consequences!! After all, the person with exhausted reserves will hardly be in a position to cope with new demands!!! When it comes to adaptive hormones such as cortisol we know that it derives its adaptive stamina enhancing effects by mobilising reserves ( Yin ) in the body. ....... The comparison here between modern science and TCM is indeed enlightening. While science has approached this matter from a reductionist perspective and identified the mechanisms behind these various effects, the holistic approach of TCM on the other hand is much more wide ranging, encompassing the effects upon the entire body. Medical science for instance, is much more likely to see bone loss as an isolated symptom or side effect with no implications for the metabolism of the body as a whole, even in spite of the fact that osteoporosis has been linked to elevation of endogenous cortisol levels ( 28, 29 ). Whereas elevated cortisol levels were once utilised by the body to enable us to cope with emergency situations, to save us from the hungry lion for instance, today, in contemptuous disregard of their wide ranging adaptive and Yin mobilising effects, cortisone type drugs are used by modern medicine to treat the symptoms of all manner of diseases. The central adaptive effects of cortisone may even be described as " side effects. " The expectation that adaptive reserve mobilising hormones such as cortisol could be used indefinitely to suppress symptoms of chronic diseases without addressing the underlying cause demonstrates a fundamental and most disturbing misunderstanding of the body and its adaptive processes. " Sounds like what my horse went through on a spleen/qi tonic formula which did not support the kidneys? The site this came from has a very interesting article on chronic fatigue too. Also on Jing or essence which is held by the kidneys from another site: " While Western doctors define the problems associated with menopause as stemming solely from estrogen deficiency, in Chinese medicine estrogen, along with other hormones, is subsumed within the larger category of internal secretions known as Essence (jing). ..... In John Lee, M.D.'s descriptive definition, it is striking how easily the term Essence (jing) can be substituted for steroid: " Steroid [hormones] stabilize, energize, nurture our cells and tissues, ensure repair and replication of vital tissue, protect us against damage, and foster the genesis and development of a new life to carry on our species. " The same functions performed by the hypothalamic-pituitary axis-the capacity to grow, mature, reproduce, maintain stability, generate blood and marrow, adapt to stress, repair body tissues-are governed by the Kidney. Inherited and acquired Essence, pooled within the reservoir of the Kidney, are stored and dispensed as needed. All other organ systems live downstream from this inland sea, dependent on its supply Makes sense to me? Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 > Are you picking up on this post below - it is months old - can't see any > other reference to KY deficiency ? Sorry, bad wording on my part - the liver discussion yesterday and today got onto yin deficiency and possibly addressing it via the kidneys, and I began thinking of the 'mother-son' principle mentioned recently, and went round full circle back to where I was months ago. If the son is deficient - is it because the mother is actually a bit so? > I wonder Jackie if your horse was castrated, did it take place during or > after puberty ? If a transitional phase in growth or adult sex status was > interrupted by castration the gelding might suffer more from Kidney Yin > deficiency. Gosh it was you know. He was madly sexy as a weanling, started accosting fillies aged nine months and then when separated from them (with other lads) started to really fret over getting back to them. The stud where he lived insisted he was gelded - at nine months. I never thought to mention it anywhere!? > However, a castrated male will likely suffer Yang deficiency as well - lack > of energy et .. Funny thing is there is something strange about him that way - he loves the ladies, though he is pretty platonic with them having 'grown up with mother'. but there is something about him that drives stallions wild - as though they can sense an energy about him, something in his voice too. I thought it might be just his hormonal imbalance, he looks a high androgen guy - but now you come to mention it, I wonder if a yin deficient - yang excess could amount to the same thing as far as other horses were concerned? > Now, If Not castrated And K. Yin deficient Then probably K. Yang deficient > too. Has definately been apparently so since the obvious 'heat' has been allayed - big fat lethargic thing he looks - I think that's one reason why people might have prescribed too yang herbs? I think it may have to be addressed, but maybe after I've got everything settled - with some nice cool Jiao Gu Lan? Although the K. Yang deficiency will not be so apparent it might be > evident in a lowered sex drive or general 'lack of interest'. Being a 'city > boy' I don't get to see horses a great deal but it would seem to me pretty > easy to determine whether a horse was 'interested'. Difficult, he was such an irritable bully growing up he was banned to living with mother alone from 2 yrs. So he loves female company, loves to 'posess mares', but does not get sexy with them. I got a mare for his buddy a year after Mom died - and he was SOOO happy to have his own special lady again, boys were just not good enough. Horses do like a matriarch, though he is very much the dominant, he is much calmer with her there, somehow only feels complete with a mare about. > Finally, have you thought about specific Yin-Yang tonifying formulae to try No, I have really been relying on TCM professionals up until now. But I was thinking this evening I might pick up some Han Lian Cao tommorrow to test the yin theory. My MM says: 1) Tonifies Liver and Kidney Yin 2) Clears Deficiency Heat, Cools the Blood and Stops Bleeding The Ayurvedic mix with that in seems to really suit him, so I know he won't have a bad reaction to it, his cortisol after two months on it was lower, and I could add a little more and see how he responds? What would the risk to the digestion Hugo mentioned be - cooling the spleen down too much? I guess that's why all the herbs have been aimed at warming spleen and stomach, like Bai Zhu, Gan Cao, Chen Pi and Shan Zha. But they are too much - so it might balance perfectly?! You know I just remembered he had a small nosebleed for no reason a couple of weeks ago, and had one about the same time last year. His skin looks a touch dehydrated too - but that may be circulatory, his recent blood tests is certainly normal. He's also pretty warm all the time just now - not sweaty or hot, just always very warm to the touch, surprisingly so for a horse with a depressed free thyroid level (nothing wrong with the thyroid gland - blood FT4 could be being depressed by high cortisol). He's been on a low level of thyroxine for that for a year, and he was definately a bit cold before that, but I think he is warmer than normal this spring, definately warmer than other horses. I really feel I'm getting close to the right answers you know, I think it's worth a try, he'll tell me if I'm right or wrong! When the horse herbalist gets online I'd like to try building a formula around Jiao Gu Lan (because of the specific nitric oxide benefit to foot circulation). Bai Shao seems good for him just now, so perhaps Bai Zhu could balance that all out - it is supposed to be good for insulin resistance too. Sigh - you could go mad trying to work this out. Time for bed! Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 Hmm badly timed castration eh ! Not a bad guess for a 'city boy'. Because Jing has been 'cut off' literally, you need to address balancing Yin and Yang with specific Jing tonifying formulae. You need to point out this problem to a local TCM practitioner. I don't think fooling around with herbs yourself / by amateurs to fix profound systemic problems is a very clever thing to do. Sometimes the obvious is so blinding that we miss it. Sammy. jackie [jackie] 11 April 2003 02:46 Chinese Traditional Medicine Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Kidney yin and cortisol > Are you picking up on this post below - it is months old - can't see any > other reference to KY deficiency ? Sorry, bad wording on my part - the liver discussion yesterday and today got onto yin deficiency and possibly addressing it via the kidneys, and I began thinking of the 'mother-son' principle mentioned recently, and went round full circle back to where I was months ago. If the son is deficient - is it because the mother is actually a bit so? > I wonder Jackie if your horse was castrated, did it take place during or > after puberty ? If a transitional phase in growth or adult sex status was > interrupted by castration the gelding might suffer more from Kidney Yin > deficiency. Gosh it was you know. He was madly sexy as a weanling, started accosting fillies aged nine months and then when separated from them (with other lads) started to really fret over getting back to them. The stud where he lived insisted he was gelded - at nine months. I never thought to mention it anywhere!? > However, a castrated male will likely suffer Yang deficiency as well - lack > of energy et .. Funny thing is there is something strange about him that way - he loves the ladies, though he is pretty platonic with them having 'grown up with mother'. but there is something about him that drives stallions wild - as though they can sense an energy about him, something in his voice too. I thought it might be just his hormonal imbalance, he looks a high androgen guy - but now you come to mention it, I wonder if a yin deficient - yang excess could amount to the same thing as far as other horses were concerned? > Now, If Not castrated And K. Yin deficient Then probably K. Yang deficient > too. Has definately been apparently so since the obvious 'heat' has been allayed - big fat lethargic thing he looks - I think that's one reason why people might have prescribed too yang herbs? I think it may have to be addressed, but maybe after I've got everything settled - with some nice cool Jiao Gu Lan? Although the K. Yang deficiency will not be so apparent it might be > evident in a lowered sex drive or general 'lack of interest'. Being a 'city > boy' I don't get to see horses a great deal but it would seem to me pretty > easy to determine whether a horse was 'interested'. Difficult, he was such an irritable bully growing up he was banned to living with mother alone from 2 yrs. So he loves female company, loves to 'posess mares', but does not get sexy with them. I got a mare for his buddy a year after Mom died - and he was SOOO happy to have his own special lady again, boys were just not good enough. Horses do like a matriarch, though he is very much the dominant, he is much calmer with her there, somehow only feels complete with a mare about. > Finally, have you thought about specific Yin-Yang tonifying formulae to try No, I have really been relying on TCM professionals up until now. But I was thinking this evening I might pick up some Han Lian Cao tommorrow to test the yin theory. My MM says: 1) Tonifies Liver and Kidney Yin 2) Clears Deficiency Heat, Cools the Blood and Stops Bleeding The Ayurvedic mix with that in seems to really suit him, so I know he won't have a bad reaction to it, his cortisol after two months on it was lower, and I could add a little more and see how he responds? What would the risk to the digestion Hugo mentioned be - cooling the spleen down too much? I guess that's why all the herbs have been aimed at warming spleen and stomach, like Bai Zhu, Gan Cao, Chen Pi and Shan Zha. But they are too much - so it might balance perfectly?! You know I just remembered he had a small nosebleed for no reason a couple of weeks ago, and had one about the same time last year. His skin looks a touch dehydrated too - but that may be circulatory, his recent blood tests is certainly normal. He's also pretty warm all the time just now - not sweaty or hot, just always very warm to the touch, surprisingly so for a horse with a depressed free thyroid level (nothing wrong with the thyroid gland - blood FT4 could be being depressed by high cortisol). He's been on a low level of thyroxine for that for a year, and he was definately a bit cold before that, but I think he is warmer than normal this spring, definately warmer than other horses. I really feel I'm getting close to the right answers you know, I think it's worth a try, he'll tell me if I'm right or wrong! When the horse herbalist gets online I'd like to try building a formula around Jiao Gu Lan (because of the specific nitric oxide benefit to foot circulation). Bai Shao seems good for him just now, so perhaps Bai Zhu could balance that all out - it is supposed to be good for insulin resistance too. Sigh - you could go mad trying to work this out. Time for bed! Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 > Not a bad guess for a 'city boy'. Because Jing has been 'cut off' literally, > you need to address balancing Yin and Yang with specific Jing tonifying > formulae. You need to point out this problem to a local TCM practitioner. I > don't think fooling around with herbs yourself / by amateurs to fix profound > systemic problems is a very clever thing to do. Me neither, but it seems I'm between a rock and a hard place - when the best herbalist I can find has given up on him, and the vets drug didn't fix the ulcer! But things are becoming clear really fast now I think: By this morning I think he was becoming too yin/cool. The peony has settled his feet and ulcer beautifully, but I immediately noticed he was too cool to the touch. I think that's why my ayurvedic combo worked well - I think the formula is more or less 'cool and yin', and the ashwaganda 'warm and yang' - and although I find it a difficult concept to grasp, he obviously needs both. Having them separately meant I could balance them exactly, according to how he was responding at any given time. He was also far less sensitive to their effects - there were no dramatic overnight changes, just gradual ebbs and flows. It is almost a shame I had managed a good balance when the herbalist came to examine the horse - he felt he was pretty healthy. But, it was not enough - his metabolism was still too low (spleen qi weak?) and boosting that upset the liver, especially with the coming of spring. So the liver itself may now be in excess/lacking in yin, or the kidneys are not supplying them well enough because they are weak in yin, yang, and now it seems possibly jing. (I thought tonifying jing was thought to be impossible - I was told that is why that claim, made for Jiao Gu Lan, is not believed by many?) So the liver is still my sticking point (no pun intended!) - I left the Mei Gui Hua in the second bag of herbs decocted, and the horse is fast becoming irritable. I have one more bag of this prescription left from the herbalist. I will leave the Bai Zhu in at full dose to balance the coolness of the Bai Shao, take out the Mai Gui Hua and try the Xiang Fu in at half dose. If he cannot take that, then the only other thing (that I can see) is to address the kidneys asap - which it seems needs doing anyway?? It's always felt like I've been 'managing symptoms' for years, but the root problem has never been identified by anyone. Every year the root problem gets a little worse, and so every year I have to find new better ways of managing symptoms just to keep him on a level. You can imagine what trying to do that for 17 years, with mother and then son, has done to my spleen!! But I have never yet found a professional who will pick it up properly and commit to seeing it through, finding an answer for him. They fail, their ego gets dented, and they give up. > Sometimes the obvious is so blinding that we miss it. No one had ever thought to ask - and I'd certainly never have guessed! Looks like a Jiao Gu Lan formula might be just the ticket? I shall certainly be able to give the horse herbalist a LOT of new information! Thank you for your thoughts, Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 --- ga.bates wrote: > > What would the risk to the digestion Hugo mentioned > be - cooling the spleen > down too much? I guess that's why all the herbs have > been aimed at warming > spleen and stomach, like Bai Zhu, Gan Cao, Chen Pi > and Shan Zha. But they > are too much - so it might balance perfectly?! The risk is that yin tonics are greasy therefore engendering dampness in the spleen. Huang Jing is a good yin tonic which is not very greasy, shi hu is pretty good too. I really recommend looking into shan yao as a digestive tonic. See you, Hugo Plus For a better Internet experience http://www..co.uk/btoffer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 > full circle back to where I was months ago. If the son is deficient - is it > because the mother is actually a bit so? Not always. If the Mother is Deficient, something else to consider via 5 Elements is the Victor-Vanquished relationship. Earth (Spleen) controls Water (Kidneys). If Earth is too powerful, Water will be too weak. > You know I just remembered he had a small nosebleed for no reason a couple > of weeks ago, and had one about the same time last year. For those new to TCM, bleeding can be due to Spleen Not Controlling Blood, or, it can be due to Heat in the Blood. > His skin looks a > touch dehydrated too - but that may be circulatory, his recent blood tests > is certainly normal. Most TCM texts list " moistening and nurturing the tissues " and providing residence for Shen as the functions of Blood. ( For readers new to TCM: The B is capitalized here because the TCM definition does not correspond exactly to what is meant by blood in Western anatomy.) But another function of the Blood is to maintain the balance of yin and yang. I've been looking for more information on this and meaning to post about this on here for some time. Perhaps some of the professionals on the list can go into more detail on this. If there is Blood Deficiency - especially long-term - there may be problems with Yin/ Yang balance. Just because Western blood tests are normal, this does not mean that the Blood is normal. The Spleen is the number one Organ when it comes to Blood generation, but, the Kidneys also play a role. This would be a snowballing relationship. The Blood Deficiency further weakens the Kidneys, the weakened Kidneys can't do what they do to help form Blood. Victoria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 > If the Mother is Deficient, something else to consider via 5 Elements > is the Victor-Vanquished relationship. Earth (Spleen) controls Water > (Kidneys). If Earth is too powerful, Water will be too weak. I think the Spleen is weak - Spleen qi deficiency seems to be considered the most obvious problem he has. > Just because Western blood tests are normal, this does not mean that > the Blood is normal. No I realise - but it does mean there is no dehydration in the western sense of the word. I was beginning to wonder about Liver control of blood circulation too. If PMS is caused by Liver qi stagnation, I beleive Liver may include some of the central/systemic hormonal mediators of blood vessel tone, hence the vascular and cerebral consequences of 'disturbing' the liver. Can't remember if I've mentioned this here? We were beginning to look at things like angiotensin, and believe that dehydrated looking skin without evidence of true dehydration in blood tests must be due to poor capillary fill or something. I certainly found it impossible to get a spot of capillary blood for a glucometer when I tried last year, had to go to a vein. I believe Liver syndromes may be closely involved with the hoof ischemia condition, laminitis. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 > We were beginning to look at things like angiotensin, and believe that > dehydrated looking skin without evidence of true dehydration in blood tests > must be due to poor capillary fill or something. I certainly found it > impossible to get a spot of capillary blood for a glucometer when I tried > last year, had to go to a vein. This is not TCM, but high percentages of nondiscocytes (misshapen, inflexible red blood cells) can cause problems. Because they are not shaped right and because they are inflexible, they have problems making it through the smaller capillaries. This can lead to all sorts of problems, including behavioral because the hypothalamus in the brain is very rich in small capillaries. The treatment for humans is vitamin B12 which promotes healthy red blood cells. I don't know if this would be correct for a horse or not. Or even if this is the problem. High percentages of nondiscocytes appear in several illnesses, including though not limited to diabetes. For more information, do a Goggle for L.O. Simpson, nondiscocytes, New Zealand. He's an expert on the problem. Some substances encourage the formation of nondiscocytes (I believe calcium is one). Others like B12 promote the formation of healthy discocytes. Victoria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 > > If the Mother is Deficient, something else to consider via 5 Elements > > is the Victor-Vanquished relationship. Earth (Spleen) controls Water > > (Kidneys). If Earth is too powerful, Water will be too weak. > > I think the Spleen is weak - Spleen qi deficiency seems to be considered the > most obvious problem he has. If both the Spleen and the Kidneys are weak, this can present treatment problems sometimes. Especially if the problems have been going on for some time. As the Spleen is tonified, this can suppress the Kidneys. Even though the Spleen is still weak, the Kidneys may be weakened if the Kidney problems have not also been addressed at the same time. It's like what happens when a person is Kidney Yang or Kidney Yin Deficient. If one of these is present, the other is almost sure to also be present though in lesser degree. Sometimes the discrepancy is so great that the predominate Deficiency can mask the other. Sometimes you'll see symptoms of both. If one is treated without treating the other, the predominate Deficiency can change. For example, give a person who is Kidney Yang Deficient a formula without one or more Kidney Yin tonic herbs, and the symptoms can change from predominate Yang Deficiency to predominate Yin Deficiency. The thing is, the person probably is still Kidney Yang Deficient, but because of the Yang tonic herbs is now more Kidney Yin Deficient than Kidney Yang Deficient. (Kidney Yang Deficiency can take a long time to treat.) They both have to be treated at the same time in the correct ratios. Sometimes getting the proper ratio for the individual is a matter of careful trial and error. Victoria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 > Some substances encourage the formation of nondiscocytes (I believe > calcium is one). Others like B12 promote the formation of healthy > discocytes. That and omega 3's I see - my horse gets both, lots of soothing flaxseed jelly mucilage! Interesting, thanks. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 > If one is treated without treating the other, the predominate > Deficiency can change. For example, give a person who is Kidney Yang > Deficient a formula without one or more Kidney Yin tonic herbs, and > the symptoms can change from predominate Yang Deficiency to > predominate Yin Deficiency. The thing is, the person probably is > still Kidney Yang Deficient, but because of the Yang tonic herbs is > now more Kidney Yin Deficient than Kidney Yang Deficient. (Kidney > Yang Deficiency can take a long time to treat.) They both have to be > treated at the same time in the correct ratios. Sometimes getting > the proper ratio for the individual is a matter of careful trial and > error. Yes, I think that is what I have just seen, and the stage we seem to have reached. My herb importer has found some Jiao Gu Lan in the UK, so I may have it Monday, and the horse herbalist should be ready to comment by then too. I will probably get some Hian Lian Cao to keep on hand too - my logic being that if the liver keeps getting too hot/yang it may be draining yin more than yang from the kidneys? If I tonify both with Jiao Gu Lan, I wondered if he might still be out of balance? I have been told Jiao Gu Lan is unusual in that it can 'tonify Kidney Yin and Yang in balanced way' but am not sure what that means exactly, if it means 'equally' or 'adapatably'. Does the concept of adaptogenic action exist in TCM? There do seem to be some herbs who action, under western scientific study, can go one way or another - for instance leading to less or more adrenal hormones, according to need. I am not sure if that is a specific property of the herbs, or if it is merely a western interpretation of normal TCM principles - I haven't tried to work it out yet? Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starstern Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 from reading about these terms ,it makes me think 'as they are both the same '? its just which part you take a grab on ;and name it accordingly ;i.e. when one is burned out ;then he is exhuested depleted of adrenal power began with stressed and high cortisol and end up with depletion of cortisol as well ;now to take the same thing from a another angles burn out= dried up, overheated,until lost heat replenish power and became cold black out =dark =KIDNEY YIN difiency ;now take treatment ;licorice addresses it it feeds the yin kidney ;at the same time in western medicine licorice feeds your cortisol feeds your adrenal brings back the luster to life ///gives you warm soft oily wet young fresh qualification ; ??? just wonder how far im wrong ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starstern Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 Whilst on the subject of identifying kidney yin deficiency, I believe I readsomething early on which confused me. Michael Tierra's article appears to suggest that kidney yin includes the glucocorticoid hormones cortisol - and my horse has a raised cortisol, so how could he been yin deficient? But, in reading the following article I later saw what I think is a more accurate picture - cortisol is a hormone that *marshalls* the yin reserves of the body, it facilitates the *using* of yin. Surely that makes it very much a yang hormone? This makes much more sense. Cushings (constant raised cortisol) I believe is a condition which is described as yin deficient, and in horses the only cause of rank diabetes, also a yin deficiency syndrome. So my horses raised cortisol I believe is the Kidneys' response to the body crying ' I need more yin - supply it to me!!!' . This would explains why he can have a high serum cortisol and yet a low stress response - his Kidneys are busy running overtime just to keep up the supply of yin to the body, and they have no instant 'reserves' left to mount an adaptive stress response. Make sense?? Here's some snips from the article which put this in perspective for me: " Also of interest here is the importance of the Chinese concept of Yin and the physiological explanation of this concept in Western terms. Although some aspects of the body, such as the fluids, the substance of the body, and the parasympathetic nervous system, all of which form separate parts of the Yin, may be readily explainable in Western terms, consideration of Yin as constituting the reserves of the body may not be so clear, especially in a Western context. Yin reserves however, are of vital importance if we are to retain our ability to fully adapt to stressful or emergency situations. In Western terms, the concept of Yin as representing bodily reserves compares with adrenal reserve capacity which seems to determine our adaptive capacity or the amount of adaptive energy we each possess. While the quantity of these adrenal reserves seems to depend upon adrenal size ( ie Yin ), in traditional Chinese medicine, Kidney ( adrenal ) Essence is also claimed to be the source of the Yin ( and Qi and Yang ) of the body. The fact that traditional Chinese medicine claims that the Yang of the body originates from the Kidney ( adrenal ) and also, according to the Five Elements theory, from the Heart ( thyroid ) , is interesting in view of the Yang nature of adrenalin and thyroxine. A simple example of Yin deficiency which most of us have experienced at some stage of our lives relates to the consequences of becoming over tired. Who has not wondered why, when we become exhausted from lack of sleep, we suddenly become more energetic. We get a " second wind " even though we are exhausted. This is Yin deficiency due to lack of sleep, which is the fundamental Yin tonic ( 9 ), just as exercise is a Yang tonic ( 9 ). Even though we seem to have increased energy, it should be noted that this " energy " is ultimately unsustainable due to the fact that it is based upon a depletion of the Yin reserves of the body. It is vital that this distinction between normal energy and the unfocused energy of Yin depletion becomes more readily recognised in the West. As is so aptly noted by Tierra ( 9 ), in the West where there is a general obsession with everything Yang ( ie. energy, drive, aggression, use of stimulants), the concept of Yin deficiency is little understood. The " energy " or Yang which results from Yin deficiency, which incidentally is claimed to be equivalent to excess Vata in the Ayurvedic system ( 9 ), tends to be unfocused, scattered and unsustainable ( 9 ). Yang must be grounded in Yin. Even though this is patently obvious, since without Yin (substance, fluids, reserves, etc.) there can be no Yang, it is amazing that this point receives little recognition in the West. The prevailing Western mind-set tends to suggest that stimulants will do no harm, no matter how long they are taken. Stimulants of course, draw upon the reserves of the body ( Yin ). This is also true of Yang hormones such as adrenalin, cortisol, and thyroxine. Although there is a perception today that stimulants and adaptive hormones have the ability to increase the stamina and energy of the body by " magic " , that is, without any physiological cost, nothing could be further from the truth. Even though the healthy person is very adaptable and may tolerate this stimulation or adaptation for considerable periods of time, there is a physiological price to pay. The Yin reserves of the body will eventually become depleted. There is clearly a point beyond optimum health and vitality which involves utilisation of bodily reserves. In TCM this is the point where Yang becomes excessive and damages the Yin. Unfortunately, the person who requires stimulation and instant short term gratification is amply provided for by modern society. As is the case with money however, constant withdrawal of reserves may have very serious consequences!! After all, the person with exhausted reserves will hardly be in a position to cope with new demands!!! When it comes to adaptive hormones such as cortisol we know that it derives its adaptive stamina enhancing effects by mobilising reserves ( Yin ) in the body. ....... The comparison here between modern science and TCM is indeed enlightening. While science has approached this matter from a reductionist perspective and identified the mechanisms behind these various effects, the holistic approach of TCM on the other hand is much more wide ranging, encompassing the effects upon the entire body. Medical science for instance, is much more likely to see bone loss as an isolated symptom or side effect with no implications for the metabolism of the body as a whole, even in spite of the fact that osteoporosis has been linked to elevation of endogenous cortisol levels ( 28, 29 ). Whereas elevated cortisol levels were once utilised by the body to enable us to cope with emergency situations, to save us from the hungry lion for instance, today, in contemptuous disregard of their wide ranging adaptive and Yin mobilising effects, cortisone type drugs are used by modern medicine to treat the symptoms of all manner of diseases. The central adaptive effects of cortisone may even be described as " side effects. " The expectation that adaptive reserve mobilising hormones such as cortisol could be used indefinitely to suppress symptoms of chronic diseases without addressing the underlying cause demonstrates a fundamental and most disturbing misunderstanding of the body and its adaptive processes. " Sounds like what my horse went through on a spleen/qi tonic formula which did not support the kidneys? The site this came from has a very interesting article on chronic fatigue too. Also on Jing or essence which is held by the kidneys from another site: " While Western doctors define the problems associated with menopause as stemming solely from estrogen deficiency, in Chinese medicine estrogen, along with other hormones, is subsumed within the larger category of internal secretions known as Essence (jing). ..... In John Lee, M.D.'s descriptive definition, it is striking how easily the term Essence (jing) can be substituted for steroid: " Steroid [hormones] stabilize, energize, nurture our cells and tissues, ensure repair and replication of vital tissue, protect us against damage, and foster the genesis and development of a new life to carry on our species. " The same functions performed by the hypothalamic-pituitary axis-the capacity to grow, mature, reproduce, maintain stability, generate blood and marrow, adapt to stress, repair body tissues-are governed by the Kidney. Inherited and acquired Essence, pooled within the reservoir of the Kidney, are stored and dispensed as needed. All other organ systems live downstream from this inland sea, dependent on its supply Makes sense to me? Jackie dont we got jing/yin/qi/??? jing is the most fundemental 'not yin 'as long we have enough jing ,do we have a concern for total yin depletion ??in order to avoid depletion we got make sure we have enough jing ;to little yin is just to much yang =a imbalaced qi ;??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcrghujuikhjd Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 I think that is what I have just seen, and the stage we seem to have reached. My herb importer has found some Jiao Gu Lan in the UK, so I may have it Monday, and the horse herbalist should be ready to comment by then too. I will probably get some Hian Lian Cao to keep on hand too - my logic being that if the liver keeps getting too hot/yang it may be draining yin more than yang from the kidneys? If I tonify both with Jiao Gu Lan, I wondered if he might still be out of balance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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