Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2001 MASSAGE EFFECTIVE FOR PERSISTENT LOW BACK PAIN; ACUPUNCTURE IS NOTMassage may provide long-lasting benefits as a treatment for persistentlow back pain, but acupuncture appears to be relatively ineffective,according to a report published in the Archives of Internal Medicine.http://orthopedics.medscape.com/36526.rhtml?srcmp=orth-042701<a href="http://orthopedics.medscape.com/36526.rhtml?srcmp=orth-042701">Read it Here</a> - Monday, March 26, 2001 12:31 AM Re: Channel problems/sports injuries/pulse , WMorris116@A... wrote:> > There are no published inter-rater reliability studies in TCM which is its > greatest research weakness in my opinion. The issue you raise is not limited > to pulse diagnosis. A substantial amount of time is required to 'calibrate' > practitioners for reliability regardless of the diagnostic method being > studied. here, here. well put.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 1, 2004 Hi Theresa, I have had problems for years with a herniated disc. When my back goes " out " I like to use a massage oil with a blend of rosemary and chamomile. I have tried many other oils and found that this blend seems to work really well. It helps relieve muscle spasms and pain. I know you asked for a poultice but, maybe using these herbs fresh? Hope this may help! Laura > My SO lifted something heavy and now his back is out of whack. What > do you > all recommend to alleviate the pain, and just to plain help him get > back to > normal faster? I'm interested in what herbs would help (as a > poultice?). He's > done this before and it's just a matter of time before he's back to > normal. > I'd like to do all I can to reduce the time. Thanks > ______________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 1, 2004 In a message dated 6/1/2004 1:24:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, butchbsi writes: > and I can get relief from them in a few minutes .. like > 5-10 minutes .. just from sniffing Oregano EO. > I've heard so much about your oregano, Butch. It appears I'll have to place an order soon. Thanks. Teresea C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 1, 2004 At 12:03 AM 6/1/2004 EDT, you wrote: >Hello Everyone: > >My SO lifted something heavy and now his back is out of whack. What do you >all recommend to alleviate the pain, and just to plain help him get back to >normal faster? I'm interested in what herbs would help (as a poultice?). He's >done this before and it's just a matter of time before he's back to normal. >I'd like to do all I can to reduce the time. Thanks for your help. The #1 best remedy is St. John's Wort oil, maybe with some helichrysum oil mixed in. The great thing is that mix also works for burns and sunburns, too, since it is so antiinflammatory.http://member.newsguy.com/~herblady Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 1, 2004 Thanks Angela. I'll try it. Euc. glob.? What is your method of application? Inhalation like Butch's oregano, or in a massage oil? Teresea C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 1, 2004 Hi, Teresea. I often use eucalyptus for back pain, especially low back pain. A massage would also help. :-) Angela. http://serenity.boulderhealers.com/ - <spaepiphany Monday, May 31, 2004 10:03 PM Back pain > Hello Everyone: > > My SO lifted something heavy and now his back is out of whack. What do you > all recommend to alleviate the pain, and just to plain help him get back to > normal faster? I'm interested in what herbs would help (as a poultice?). He's > done this before and it's just a matter of time before he's back to normal. > I'd like to do all I can to reduce the time. Thanks for your help. > > Teresea C. > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 1, 2004 Let me tell you it works!! Sandra from Tn - <spaepiphany > I've heard so much about your oregano, Butch. It appears I'll have to place > an order soon. Thanks. > > Teresea C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 1, 2004 Hi, Teresea. I use Euc. glob. in a massage oil. I have also used it neat on myself - a couple of drops on the lower back where my pain was localized. No burning for me, but use at own risk. I have also used it mixed with other oils (can't think of the recipe right now) for muscle aches. I dilute with grapeseed, but any good carrier should work. What I sometimes do is put a drop or two in my hand, then add carrier oil enough for massaging the area I am working on. Again, this is done on a localized area. The benefits are both through inhalation and through skin absorption - and of course through the movement of the tissue during the massage. If his spine is not out of alignment (in which case a chiropractor or osteopath would probably be best), then massage should help to relieve the pain and speed the healing. Hope this helps. Angela - <spaepiphany Tuesday, June 01, 2004 12:59 PM Re: Back pain > Thanks Angela. I'll try it. Euc. glob.? What is your method of > application? Inhalation like Butch's oregano, or in a massage oil? > > Teresea C. > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 2, 2004 Ditto for me!! And I don't even like the smell of oregano. but let me tell you, I'm beginning to. Nothing like quick relief!! Karen J Let me tell you it works!! Sandra from Tn - <spaepiphany > I've heard so much about your oregano, Butch. It appears I'll have to place > an order soon. Thanks. > > Teresea C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 2, 2004 A girl at work asked me for something for her back. She strained it moving an electric bed in a nursing home. She found that ginger, eucalyptus and lavender worked wonders for her. I use Apricot Kernel oil as the carrier. She has recommended this to others with the same results. She said the pain started in her lower back and went down her leg. She and the others just rub it on after a shower or bath and are very happy with the results. Kathy - Laura T Sarbach Cc: 6/1/2004 8:39:54 AM [Norton AntiSpam] Re: Back pain Hi Theresa, I have had problems for years with a herniated disc. When my back goes " out " I like to use a massage oil with a blend of rosemary and chamomile. I have tried many other oils and found that this blend seems to work really well. It helps relieve muscle spasms and pain. I know you asked for a poultice but, maybe using these herbs fresh? Hope this may help! Laura > My SO lifted something heavy and now his back is out of whack. What > do you > all recommend to alleviate the pain, and just to plain help him get > back to > normal faster? I'm interested in what herbs would help (as a > poultice?). He's > done this before and it's just a matter of time before he's back to > normal. > I'd like to do all I can to reduce the time. Thanks > ______________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! Step By Step Instructions On Making Rose Petal Preserves: http://www.av-at.com/stuff/rosejam.html To adjust your group settings (i.e. go no mail) see the following link: /join Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 18, 2004 Hi, I'm new to the list and was just reading the archives. Butch, are you saying that if I would buy some Oregano Essential Oil and sniff it it will relieve back pain? Just making sure I'm reading this right. Thanks much Kris , Butch Owen <butchbsi@s...> > > Teresea C. > > Sounds like my problem .. and the problem MANY folks share .. sounds > like Cyatica or spasms of the Psiatic Nerve. The common short term (but > its longer than I prefer) treatment is heat and rest and very careful > stretching. More immediate though temporary relief comes from something > very simple .. sniffing any of the Carvacrol rich Origanums .. they are > ALL very anti-spasmodic. This is not theory .. its not info from one of > the AT novels .. its from a number of years of my personal experience > and the reports of those who I have shared this information with. > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2004 heylaurag wrote: > So far I haven't had the most spectacular success treating back pain, Hi Laura! When I have a back pain patient I do the tongue, pulse, symptoms and signs differentiation as with any other patient. Then during the treatment I use the points indicated by the differentiation and use ashi points on the back for the back pain. I also look at the patient's weight and posture as these are usually the cause of the back pain. Regards, Pete Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2004 I have had great results treating back pain. I don't follow a standard treatment regime. I select points above and below the area of pain. I use 1 in needles and stimulate with electric for 20 minutes. I have not had one client who has not obtained at least some relief. I also use ear points between visits. Dr. Joe heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: Greetings all, So far I haven't had the most spectacular success treating back pain, which I find surprising because I know its one of the most common things people come to an acupuncturist for. I think I am haunted by a study I read in my research class that claimed that acupuncture was not effective for back pain---even though I know that research studies are often flawed on acupuncture. In my 6 months of practice I haven't had very many back pain clients, but I have two new ones this week. So I wanted to hear what you all do. Do you stick to the standard---UB 23 and UB 40 or UB 60....or perhaps SI 3 and UB 62? Ling Ku/Da Bai? Also, I'm a little fuzzy on when to choose UB 40 or UB 60...any ideas on when one is better than the other? Thanks! Laura Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2004 Hi Laura, One of the reasons I sought out a tuina practitioner was because acupuncture provided only temporary relief for my back pain. With tuina/qigong all of my body and energetic channels were being vigourously manipulated finally opening up all of the channels - as opposed to specific points. Other friends of mine have had similar experiences suggesting that acupunture was very temporary and tuina was more permanent. I think that what the studies have shown is that acupuncture is as effective as other standard western modalities in providing temporary relief. The breakthrough that I found in tuina was the greater permanence of relief. There are currently some very mild " stiffness " now and then when I am under stress but which I resolve with some daily qigong exercises. I think there are some issues with the way TCM approaches back pain and possibly those who use a more dymamic form of acupuncture have had different experiences than mine. I think this is a very interesting area to discuss. Regards, Rich Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > Greetings all, > > So far I haven't had the most spectacular success treating back pain, > which I find surprising because I know its one of the most common > things people come to an acupuncturist for. I think I am haunted by > a study I read in my research class that claimed that acupuncture was > not effective for back pain---even though I know that research > studies are often flawed on acupuncture. In my 6 months of practice I > haven't had very many back pain clients, but I have two new ones this > week. So I wanted to hear what you all do. Do you stick to the > standard---UB 23 and UB 40 or UB 60....or perhaps SI 3 and UB 62? > Ling Ku/Da Bai? > > Also, I'm a little fuzzy on when to choose UB 40 or UB 60...any ideas > on when one is better than the other? Thanks! > > Laura Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2004 Hello all- Great to treat constitutionally, as one of the strengths of being an acupuncturist rather than someone who practices acupuncture is treating the individual: where are the excesses, deficiencies, stagnations? For Qi stagnations in the lower back. I often find it useful to open the DU Mai using Extraordinary Meridian Pts (SI 3 - Bl 60), as well as Bl 57 bilaterally. Any comments about using Extraordinary Meridian Pts? Some feel they should only be used in extremis. Larry Moore L.Ac, RN,BSN,MSOM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2004 Many times a back pain is not a back pain but something else, such as a structural imbalance somewhere else: in cranium at the Dai in the scoliotic spine in some scar which impedes by an imbalanced musculoskeletal band because of an old injury because disparate venous return because of congestion in the portal circulation because of a 3 burner imbalance because overuse/underused of a body segment. In which case setting this right, even when quite remote to the actual back pain, will resolve the matter. It has been ages since I ever worked directly on the back, for someone presenting with a back pain. Best wishes Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2004 Hi Laura I had some of the same problems in the start of my practice concerning back pain. What I have found is that it is vital that the patient " protect the work " done by moving very slowly and conciously for a few days after the treatment. Many times they would get off the table with no pain only to call a few days later with a return to their former condition. Due to the spasms involved with " protection " , the person must be very sure to use perfect body mechanics in movement to re-educate the muscles for a few days. They should be encouraged to do several short, easy walks every day and that when they must bend or straighten or get out of bed, they should move very slowly to prevent the muscles from rebounding. Also, stretching out from the hips while still in bed, reaching for the foot of the bed to elongate the hip flexors at the lesser trochanter is very helpful in staging these muscles for their " new " length--these muscles also attach to the upper lumbar and can cause bowing and pain if they are too short. Quick movements on muscles which have been in spasm for a while encourage their return to spasm. The key is slow, easy movement during the recovery phase. Once pain is gone, the brain will calm down it's signals to spasm, but the muscles are slower to come around and need a little time. Macciocia has 2 wonderful chapters on threatment of painful obstruction and lower back pain/sciatica in The Practice of Chinese Medicine. He believes Bl 40 is more for acute cases with blood stasis and that Bl 60 works better for chronic cases (with pain on the Bl channel). I have found his protocols very helpful. He usually advocates doing a 15 minute acute protocol in the beginning with the patient standing and moving their lower back while the distal needles are being stimulated--a little awkward but effective. Depending on the location of the pain, different distal needles are used including GV 26, Bl40, Yao Tong Xue, SI 3, Bl 10, and others. These points are then removed and a local treatment is performed. For chronic conditions, local and distal points are combined and there is usually presumed to be some combination of Wind, Cold and Damp on top of the other dx's of Kid xu, blood and qi stag etc. Tui Na is also, of course, very effective and can help take the acupuncture to new levels. But be careful not to overwork the person because if there is appreciable disc involvement, one can overloosen the muscles and cause the pain to worsen. Also, pressing on the lower back and causing it to extend too far can further irritate the disc. If you don't have this book, I recommend it highly. Hope this helps. shanna Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > Greetings all, > > So far I haven't had the most spectacular success treating back pain, > which I find surprising because I know its one of the most common > things people come to an acupuncturist for. I think I am haunted by > a study I read in my research class that claimed that acupuncture was > not effective for back pain---even though I know that research > studies are often flawed on acupuncture. In my 6 months of practice I > haven't had very many back pain clients, but I have two new ones this > week. So I wanted to hear what you all do. Do you stick to the > standard---UB 23 and UB 40 or UB 60....or perhaps SI 3 and UB 62? > Ling Ku/Da Bai? > > Also, I'm a little fuzzy on when to choose UB 40 or UB 60...any ideas > on when one is better than the other? Thanks! > > Laura Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2004 Laura, Scalp acupuncture has been the primary method for me to treat back pain with great success. (Of course, I always do the pattern differentiation; however, I don't have to use it often.) The cases range from acute pain to chronic pain. The key (some call it " secret " ) to the success with acupuncture, particurlarly in pain management, is to direct the qi to the troubled spot. With the needles on the scalp, the patient is then instructed to make certain body movements, depending on the limit of the rangement of movement. Body points, determined out of pattern differentiation, are typically used for only a few seconds to help inducing the movement of qi. When you do it well, you will see immediate result right in the first few minutes almost without exception. I hope you find this helpful! Mike L. P.S., I am a big fan of using tui-na also and resonate with whatever Rich has been sharing but I find acupuncture to be far easier to do with less effort. heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: Greetings all, So far I haven't had the most spectacular success treating back pain, which I find surprising because I know its one of the most common things people come to an acupuncturist for. I think I am haunted by a study I read in my research class that claimed that acupuncture was not effective for back pain---even though I know that research studies are often flawed on acupuncture. In my 6 months of practice I haven't had very many back pain clients, but I have two new ones this week. So I wanted to hear what you all do. Do you stick to the standard---UB 23 and UB 40 or UB 60....or perhaps SI 3 and UB 62? Ling Ku/Da Bai? Also, I'm a little fuzzy on when to choose UB 40 or UB 60...any ideas on when one is better than the other? Thanks! Laura Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2004 Larry, I have used the SI 3 - BL 62 pair (not BL 60, as you do) and BL 57only a few times because 1) Scalp points (including Du 20) are good enough most of the times. 2) I count on Du 20 to open Du Mai, in the case of back pain. 3) SI 3 is simply too painful for some patients. Separately, I have never learned/recognized SI 3 - BL 60 as Extra Meridian points. (Where did you learn this? I am curious.) I did learn SI 3 - BL62 pair as part of Eight Meridian Crossing (or Meeting) points. Regards, Mike L. Galenway wrote: Hello all- Great to treat constitutionally, as one of the strengths of being an acupuncturist rather than someone who practices acupuncture is treating the individual: where are the excesses, deficiencies, stagnations? For Qi stagnations in the lower back. I often find it useful to open the DU Mai using Extraordinary Meridian Pts (SI 3 - Bl 60), as well as Bl 57 bilaterally. Any comments about using Extraordinary Meridian Pts? Some feel they should only be used in extremis. Larry Moore L.Ac, RN,BSN,MSOM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2004 Laura, Pete Theisen has laid out a very well-thought out and versatile plan for treating back pain, and it is the same general guidelines I would use to treat pain of any kind. I'll just add or elaborate on a few points for you to contemplate. As we all know from our studies of TCM, all pain may seem like just a localized phenomenon until we examine its underlying causes. Sometimes it's just that simple, and we use local points and we are done. Most of the time, there are underlying causes that needs to be differentiated using patient in-take, tongue, pulse, symptoms, signs differentiation, Eight Principles Diagnosis, etc. to determine how complex the problem is. On many occasions, you may find that pain is just the tip of the iceberg, and you end-up doing TCM internal medicine anyway. Of course, the pain would go away if the diagnosis and treatment is laid out correctly. What separates us from the allopaths and make us more effective is that we always look for underlying causes and the kind of problem that these problems can cause in the future. Like I have said before, gain control of these ideas about your patient's pathology and you will give pain a headache and not the other way around. From my own personal experiences and observations, treatment of pain needs to involve some sort of release of negative energy out of the patient's system. The hand-yin channels and the foot-yang channels are responsible for this process. Find the location of the pain and use the corresponding channels to release the pain. For instance, if the pain is located in the area around the scapula, use a distal point of the SI channel to release the negative energy. On the other hand, if the pain is caused by deficient conditions, then your hand-yang and foot-yin channels become important. Some specifics: UB40 is effective for lower back pain, but its effect is limited if not combined with other points. Those points are up to the discretion of the practitioner depending on patient's condition. I've been told that UB60 is also effective for lower back pain, but my own personal experiences told me that the much underrated and publicity-shy UB61 is much more effective especially if the patient has trouble walking. Part of the reason being that it is a Yang Chao Mai meeting point. This comes from my experiences in treating a wonderful patient with a fall injury. Try it sometimes. You may be surprised. Ba Hue Xue (Eight Meeting Points) are good if your patient's condition is related to blood, qi, tendon, bone, etc. Never ignore the internal (organ)-external (channel) connection in pain. SP10 is good for circulating blood, and LI4+Liv3 is good for circulating qi. They should make your treatment extra-effective as stagnation=pain. I don't know the English name for " Ba Hue Xue " or " Yang Chao Mai " . If anyone can provide feedback on the proper terminology of the above in English, it would be much appreciated. As you can see, treating pain and internal illness are not that different. Depending on prominence of the conditions, you would have different emphasis in the treatment plan. Hope this helps. Ming Pete Theisen <petet wrote:heylaurag wrote: > So far I haven't had the most spectacular success treating back pain, Hi Laura! When I have a back pain patient I do the tongue, pulse, symptoms and signs differentiation as with any other patient. Then during the treatment I use the points indicated by the differentiation and use ashi points on the back for the back pain. I also look at the patient's weight and posture as these are usually the cause of the back pain. Regards, Pete http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2004 Larry, I use extra points in combination with meridian points and the results are phenomenal. They are very specialized points that will give you fast results for a particular problem. Ming Galenway wrote: Hello all- Great to treat constitutionally, as one of the strengths of being an acupuncturist rather than someone who practices acupuncture is treating the individual: where are the excesses, deficiencies, stagnations? For Qi stagnations in the lower back. I often find it useful to open the DU Mai using Extraordinary Meridian Pts (SI 3 - Bl 60), as well as Bl 57 bilaterally. Any comments about using Extraordinary Meridian Pts? Some feel they should only be used in extremis. Larry Moore L.Ac, RN,BSN,MSOM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 23, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " Ming H. Lee " <aceqihealer> wrote: > > > I don't know the English name for " Ba Hue Xue " or " Yang Chao Mai " . If anyone can provide feedback on the proper terminology of the above in English, it would be much appreciated. > Still no standard English terminology of CM. Your translation of " 8 Meeting Points " is as good as any, also sometimes they are called " 8 Influential Points " , i.e., UB17 for Blood, GB34 for Sinews, UB11 for Bones, GB39 for Marrow, etc. Yang Chao is commonly Pinyin- ized as Yang Qiao and usually gets translated as Yang Heel or Yang Motility Vessel. Probably less confusing to just call it Yang Qiao Mai. rh Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 24, 2004 Thank you for the explanation. It is much appreciated. Sincerely, Ming kampo36 <kampo36 wrote: Chinese Medicine , " Ming H. Lee " <aceqihealer> wrote: > > > I don't know the English name for " Ba Hue Xue " or " Yang Chao Mai " . If anyone can provide feedback on the proper terminology of the above in English, it would be much appreciated. > Still no standard English terminology of CM. Your translation of " 8 Meeting Points " is as good as any, also sometimes they are called " 8 Influential Points " , i.e., UB17 for Blood, GB34 for Sinews, UB11 for Bones, GB39 for Marrow, etc. Yang Chao is commonly Pinyin- ized as Yang Qiao and usually gets translated as Yang Heel or Yang Motility Vessel. Probably less confusing to just call it Yang Qiao Mai. rh http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 24, 2004 Larry Moore: Any comments about using Extraordinary Meridian Pts? Some feel they should only be used in extremis. > > These are the first order of the day in terms of a root treatment. Nowadays I have replaced these with taking care of asymmeirc body sectors. Often the presenting complaint disappears or is radically remedied without having to address it directly. I like the octahedral model of Manaka on which the 8 Ex Chs are grafted. He would say that tweaking one will have the others fall into place. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 24, 2004 Hi Laura, I always use Si3 and UB62 when treating back pain, no matter where the location of the pain. Inserting Si3 first and then UB62 - withdrawing in the opposite sequence. The principle I also use is to needle in the acu-points in the area of the pain and then use the distal points on the same channel. Herbs are also usually very helpful and I struggle to remember a back pain client that didn't respond very well to treatment. Kind regards Dermot - " heylaurag " <heylaurag <Chinese Medicine > Monday, August 23, 2004 8:49 AM Back pain > Greetings all, > > So far I haven't had the most spectacular success treating back pain, > which I find surprising because I know its one of the most common > things people come to an acupuncturist for. I think I am haunted by > a study I read in my research class that claimed that acupuncture was > not effective for back pain---even though I know that research > studies are often flawed on acupuncture. In my 6 months of practice I > haven't had very many back pain clients, but I have two new ones this > week. So I wanted to hear what you all do. Do you stick to the > standard---UB 23 and UB 40 or UB 60....or perhaps SI 3 and UB 62? > Ling Ku/Da Bai? > > Also, I'm a little fuzzy on when to choose UB 40 or UB 60...any ideas > on when one is better than the other? Thanks! > > Laura Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites