toddler eczema--fermented foods, why does Ayurveda oppose?

[Guest guest]

Hello

My name is Erin, I have d to this group for a long time, but hardly

post as I have been so busy with mothering and midwifing the last few years. I

am exploring our current health crisis and I have posted the not below on other

Ayuvedic groups with no response, so I am wondering if you all here have any

words of wisdom you can share. Thank you!

Warmly,

Erin in NM

 

I have been learning about and practicing Ayurveda (in my

personal life) on and off for a few years now. I live in New Mexico and have had

the privilege of going to the Ayurvedic Institute in Albuquerque for

consultations through the years. I am also a midwife, and do incorporate basic

Ayurvedic principles into my practice.

 

Currently, my son who is 20 months old, has been having eczema/GI issues for the

past 5 months, roughly 3 months after he began to regularly eat solid foods.

We've taken a somewhat mixed approach to dealing with it, ranging from

elimination diets to allergy testing.

 

At this point we have identified a number of suspected " triggers " that we have

eliminated from his diet, and are essentially doing a pitta and kapha

pacifying diet as he is PK, and was recently diagnosed with a pitta pushing

kapha imbalance.

 

I have done so much research on food intolerances, detox pathways, and gut

healing in my efforts to solve his condition. While he has shown some

improvement after eliminating gluten and some other pitta aggrivating foods, he

still has flare ups.

 

My goal is to strengthen his system---his digestion and his gut flora so that we

can get to a point where his body can process these foods more effectively. I

had hoped to start him on kefir and kimchee (and possibly kombucha), as I prefer

to recolonize his gut with beneficial bacteria and probiotics from food rather

than suppements alone, and my understanding is that kefir is far superior to

yogurt in this regard. We had been doing goat yogurt (store bought) for some

time prior to eliminating all dairy a few months ago (goat yogurt was his main

source of dairy anyway.

 

Our Ayurvedic doc cautioned against introducing these foods as part of our

healing regimine, because they may agrivate Pitta, and are egenrally not

favored, so my plan was a bit blown out of the water! I understand that

fermented foods are not highly valued in Ayurveda and are believed to be toxic

when consumed regularly. I am hoping someone can explain to me the mechanics of

this, ie. exactly how and why are fermented foods toxic?

 

I intuitively feel that recolonizing his intestinal flora and strengthening his

gut will help heal him, and I am saddened that my plan opposes conventional

Ayuvedic wisdom.

 

I would appreciate any insights into this issue! And I look forward to learning

much here, and getting to know you all.

 

Warmly,

Erin

[Guest guest]

Hi Erin -

 

Irresistably though with other things on my desk, I'd like to take a few minutes

on your question, without the level of detail I'd like.

 

Based upon my understanding of Eczema and possible causes in addition to the

food thing you are attending to so well, we should look at

 

* possible causes for pitta in the liver,

* this little beings temperment (what time of year was he born - was it still

hot weather?) both from doshic and 3 gunas point of view,

* and even the astrological influences may be looked at.

 

This latter is because when lots of layers of wise attention are not giving

desired results, there may be other influences on non-physical that can help

clarify. We have at least 2 vedic astrolagers on the group who are very good

this way.

 

Did the doc recommend manjista in an herbal formula?

 

Specific to the cultured foods, Ayurveda says freshly made yoghurt or kefir is

not a problem, but as most people use it, after a day or 3 it becomes pitta

increasing, more sour. Rashes have to be addressed as a pitta issue, at

whatever level it is manifesting or caused. THough there may be need and

support for his healing from recolonizing the gut better, it is not the root

cause by my understanding.

 

In general, fermented foods are created by processes that engage a breakdown of

the food's natural energy into something else. The energy becomes rajasic and

tamasic. I would encourage you to look up these three words (also sattva), and

their emototional/mental influences - even on the liver. Also the types of

foods which create which.

 

I describe fermented foods influence to my students for postpartum - where they

are also contraindicated, even if very digestible, becase there it is a

situation needing rapid rejuvenation and what Ayurveda calls sattva. And the

energy of fermenteds is degenerative. Yes, the decomposing food is replaced by

the life force of the colonizing organisms. However the process involved is

enhancing to degeneration. Yes, it is grounding too, but also slows down

regeneration/rejuvenation and positive pure life force, they say.

 

And kapha imbalances often become exacerbated by tamasic influences as well as

weakened digestion. Weakened digestion also comes about not just from flora. A

baby's agni (digestive " fires " or enzyme processes, there are like adults many)

I see often gets messed up with imbalance of foods and insufficient seasonings.

In his case, the gentle pungents like cumin and coriander and fennel, and the

gentle bitters like fenugreek, turmeric, and fresh ginger possibly also I would

use it if was my baby, in small amounts. Fenugreek and turmeric have

interesting restorative properties for the gut.

 

So does slippery elm tea, and according to an Edgar Cayce doc, American Saffron

(not to be confused with the regular saffron, this is really safflower I think).

These last two to be used in tea or soaked in water, not taken together he said.

ONe in am, the other pm.

 

It may recolonize as needed in the gut - we have to look at all these things in

their own best balance of course. And my approach to Ayurveda though as a

teacher, my students know is exacting to the principles, in practice is

practical to what the client will do and can do. So I do not know the balance

of importance on this advice, except to suggest if you use kefir (which I highly

regard for many reasons), use it freshly made.

 

New Mexico being of course a hotter drier climate, makes it more challenging to

deal with a pitta disorder. I'm not an expert at all on eczema though have done

some deep research on psoriasis for a friend and came to understand its common

roots with eczema.

 

Good luck, thank you for bringing this up and please let us know what you learn

and how it goes? I hope this helps.

 

I'd love to get together when I'm back in NM, if we can create the time and

purpose.

 

Irrepressably yours,

 

YSha

 

 

 

> Currently, my son who is 20 months old, has been having eczema/GI issues for

the past 5 months, roughly 3 months after he began to regularly eat solid foods.

We've taken a somewhat mixed approach to dealing with it, ranging from

elimination diets to allergy testing.

>

> At this point we have identified a number of suspected " triggers " that we have

eliminated from his diet, and are essentially doing a pitta and kapha pacifying

diet as he is PK, and was recently diagnosed with a pitta pushing kapha

imbalance.

[Guest guest]

Thank you Ysha for your thoughtful, warm, informative reply.

 

-- In ayurveda , " Ysha Oakes " <AyurDoulas wrote:

 

> Based upon my understanding of Eczema and possible causes in addition to the

food thing you are attending to so well, we should look at

>

> * possible causes for pitta in the liver,

> * this little beings temperment (what time of year was he born - was it still

hot weather?) both from doshic and 3 gunas point of view,

> * and even the astrological influences may be looked at.

 

Yes, he is a VERY fiery soul. I knew it from the moment he was conceived. He

jumped around my utrus the entire time he was in there and I knew he was going

to be a fireball. Born on July 6.

 

 

> Did the doc recommend manjista in an herbal formula?

 

Not that I can tell---the handwriting is difficult to read however!

 

 

> Specific to the cultured foods, Ayurveda says freshly made yoghurt > or kefir

is not a problem, but as most people use it, after a day > > or 3 it becomes

pitta increasing, more sour.

 

Ok, I am not sure it would have the same probiotic benefit if it were consumed

after such a short time...Perhaps I will just abandon this whole kefir idea....

 

>Rashes have to be addressed as a pitta issue, at whatever level it >is

manifesting or caused. THough there may be need and support for >his healing

from recolonizing the gut better, it is not the root >cause by my understanding.

 

Yes, I agree. I do feel intuitively though that strengthening his gut flora

would help his digestion, and help break down those things that he is consuming

that are not digesting well, and provoking all his pitta and eczema. Perhaps

this is more of a western view. I have spent so much time researching his

condition from a variety of perspectives. For a long time I just took what I

knew and intuited from Ayurveda, and continued to live my life, incorporating

the principles that made sense and worked for me. Now, I have had to re-learn

much and explore more thoroughly many things, especially with regard to food

characteristics, rasa, virya, prabhav, agni, etc.

 

It has been a struggle to attempt to follow Ayurvedic principles as our primary

healing approach. When we follow stricly pitta-kapha pacifying diets, he stil

has flare ups and reacts to certain foods, so we have to remove those foods.

While I don't want to be eliminating so many foods in the long term, I want to

spare him the discomfort of the flare ups right now. And because we have removed

many foods, we are limited as to what we can eat, and have to consume a fair

amount of pitta agrivating grains in particular so that we are not living on

rice alone. I am nursing and this whole process has been tough on me as well.

 

 

> In general, fermented foods are created by processes that engage a >breakdown

of the food's natural energy into something else. The >energy becomes rajasic

and tamasic.....And the energy of fermenteds >is degenerative. Yes, the

decomposing food is replaced by the life >force of the colonizing organisms.

However the process involved is >enhancing to degeneration. Yes, it is

grounding too, but also slows >down regeneration/rejuvenation and positive pure

life force, they >say.

 

Thank you for explaining this Ysha. I will have to think on this topic more. I

wonder what cultural and environmental conditions in historic India may have

contributed to these paticular assessments of fermented foods---not that I

necessarily disagree, but am hoping to understand the influences in this matter.

 

> A baby's agni (digestive " fires " or enzyme processes, there are >like adults

many) I see often gets messed up with imbalance of foods >and insufficient

seasonings. In his case, the gentle pungents like >cumin and coriander and

fennel, and the gentle bitters like >fenugreek, turmeric, and fresh ginger

possibly also I would use it >if was my baby, in small amounts.

 

We generally cook with all of these, although not fenugreek for teh most part.

It is true that my son probably has consumed to many heating spices, peppers and

ginger for his constitution. We love fresh ginger and tumeric.

 

>Fenugreek and turmeric have interesting restorative properties for the gut.

 

Thank you! Good to know! I have been thinking of making a fennel infusion of

sorts to help before bedtime, like a " Gripe Water " of sorts, and have been

wondering what else to add. Maybe I wil try fennel, fenugreek and tumeric?

 

 

> if you use kefir (which I highly regard for many reasons), use it freshly

made.

 

Ok, so you are a fan of kefir? I may give it a try as our next food to be

re-introduced and see how he handles it. SO far teh only dairy he has had is

goat yogurt and some cheeses.

DO you prefer goat kefor over cow kefor? And what about the non-dairy kefirs

like water and cocount kefirs? These are very popular in th allergic-child NFL

community.

 

> I'd love to get together when I'm back in NM, if we can create the time and

purpose.

 

Yes, I would love this as well. We are a bit north of Santa Fe.

 

Warmly,

Erin

[Guest guest]

I don't know if it was clear from my last reply that I had injected comments

throughout so I am reposting again below. Thanks!

 

 

 

> Thank you Ysha for your thoughtful, warm, informative reply.

>

> -- In ayurveda , " Ysha Oakes " <AyurDoulas@> wrote:

>

> > Based upon my understanding of Eczema and possible causes in addition to the

food thing you are attending to so well, we should look at

> >

> > * possible causes for pitta in the liver,

> > * this little beings temperment (what time of year was he born - was it

still hot weather?) both from doshic and 3 gunas point of view,

> > * and even the astrological influences may be looked at.

>

> Yes, he is a VERY fiery soul. I knew it from the moment he was conceived. He

jumped around my utrus the entire time he was in there and I knew he was going

to be a fireball. Born on July 6.

>

>

> > Did the doc recommend manjista in an herbal formula?

>

> Not that I can tell---the handwriting is difficult to read however!

>

>

> > Specific to the cultured foods, Ayurveda says freshly made yoghurt > or

kefir is not a problem, but as most people use it, after a day > > or 3 it

becomes pitta increasing, more sour.

>

> Ok, I am not sure it would have the same probiotic benefit if it were consumed

after such a short time...Perhaps I will just abandon this whole kefir idea....

>

> >Rashes have to be addressed as a pitta issue, at whatever level it >is

manifesting or caused. THough there may be need and support for >his healing

from recolonizing the gut better, it is not the root >cause by my understanding.

>

> Yes, I agree. I do feel intuitively though that strengthening his gut flora

would help his digestion, and help break down those things that he is consuming

that are not digesting well, and provoking all his pitta and eczema. Perhaps

this is more of a western view. I have spent so much time researching his

condition from a variety of perspectives. For a long time I just took what I

knew and intuited from Ayurveda, and continued to live my life, incorporating

the principles that made sense and worked for me. Now, I have had to re-learn

much and explore more thoroughly many things, especially with regard to food

characteristics, rasa, virya, prabhav, agni, etc.

>

> It has been a struggle to attempt to follow Ayurvedic principles as our

primary healing approach. When we follow stricly pitta-kapha pacifying diets, he

stil has flare ups and reacts to certain foods, so we have to remove those

foods. While I don't want to be eliminating so many foods in the long term, I

want to spare him the discomfort of the flare ups right now. And because we have

removed many foods, we are limited as to what we can eat, and have to consume a

fair amount of pitta agrivating grains in particular so that we are not living

on rice alone. I am nursing and this whole process has been tough on me as well.

>

>

> > In general, fermented foods are created by processes that engage a

>breakdown of the food's natural energy into something else. The >energy

becomes rajasic and tamasic.....And the energy of fermenteds >is degenerative.

Yes, the decomposing food is replaced by the life >force of the colonizing

organisms. However the process involved is >enhancing to degeneration. Yes, it

is grounding too, but also slows >down regeneration/rejuvenation and positive

pure life force, they >say.

>

> Thank you for explaining this Ysha. I will have to think on this topic more. I

wonder what cultural and environmental conditions in historic India may have

contributed to these paticular assessments of fermented foods---not that I

necessarily disagree, but am hoping to understand the influences in this matter.

>

> > A baby's agni (digestive " fires " or enzyme processes, there are >like adults

many) I see often gets messed up with imbalance of foods >and insufficient

seasonings. In his case, the gentle pungents like >cumin and coriander and

fennel, and the gentle bitters like >fenugreek, turmeric, and fresh ginger

possibly also I would use it >if was my baby, in small amounts.

>

> We generally cook with all of these, although not fenugreek for teh most part.

It is true that my son probably has consumed to many heating spices, peppers and

ginger for his constitution. We love fresh ginger and tumeric.

>

> >Fenugreek and turmeric have interesting restorative properties for the gut.

>

> Thank you! Good to know! I have been thinking of making a fennel infusion of

sorts to help before bedtime, like a " Gripe Water " of sorts, and have been

wondering what else to add. Maybe I wil try fennel, fenugreek and tumeric?

>

>

> > if you use kefir (which I highly regard for many reasons), use it freshly

made.

>

> Ok, so you are a fan of kefir? I may give it a try as our next food to be

re-introduced and see how he handles it. SO far teh only dairy he has had is

goat yogurt and some cheeses.

> DO you prefer goat kefor over cow kefor? And what about the non-dairy kefirs

like water and cocount kefirs? These are very popular in th allergic-child NFL

community.

>

> > I'd love to get together when I'm back in NM, if we can create the time and

purpose.

>

> Yes, I would love this as well. We are a bit north of Santa Fe.

>

> Warmly,

> Erin

>