Guest guest Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 , " " <@c...> wrote: > What does CM say about chronic swollen tonsils? Anyone know of any good > discussion in Chinese or English on this topic. Thanx, Jason, I uploaded a small file that has some interesting material that you might find useful. It is from differential diagnosis of symptoms in CM (ÖÐátÖ¢ îèb„eÔ\ " àŒW). I learned some stuff while reading this little section, so maybe you'll find it interesting as well. It is in traditional Chinese; if some readers need to convert it to simplified, watch out for computer mistakes on CM words that don't automatically simplify correctly. Enjoy! Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 Eric, Thanx for the upload, I will check it out later today... The more I try to run, the more I get smacked with traditional characters... Especially with my latest neijing readings... argh.... I guess I better make some new flashcards... -Jason > > > On Behalf Of Eric Brand > Tuesday, September 27, 2005 3:27 AM > > Re: tonsils > > , " " > <@c...> wrote: > > What does CM say about chronic swollen tonsils? Anyone know of > any good > > discussion in Chinese or English on this topic. Thanx, > > > Jason, > > I uploaded a small file that has some interesting material that you > might find useful. It is from differential diagnosis of symptoms in > CM (ÖÃátÖ¢ îèb„eÔ\ " à ŒW). I learned some stuff while reading this > little section, so maybe you'll find it interesting as well. > > It is in traditional Chinese; if some readers need to convert it to > simplified, watch out for computer mistakes on CM words that don't > automatically simplify correctly. > > Enjoy! > > Eric Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 , " " <@c...> wrote: > Eric, > > Thanx for the upload, I will check it out later today... The more I try to run, the more I get smacked with traditional characters... Especially with my latest neijing readings... argh.... I guess I better make some new flashcards... I'm told that even in the PRC, traditional script is the only thing used at the higher levels of classical study (though of course the modern commentary is all in simplified script). Apparently there are too many ambiguities in simplified for the scholars to deal with, because many times two distinct traditional characters are rendered by the same simplified character. This is the reason for the widespread mistranslation " the kidney stores the will " in English. Originally, neijing commentary says that the use of the character zhi (which, in some contexts- though more rarely in CM- also means will) in this context uses the meaning of the character zhi (as written with a yan radical), meaning memory, mind. Reduction of two traditional characters into one simplified character has caused generations of students in the West to link the kidney to will and willpower, when the original Chinese was linking the kidney to memory. So although the decline of memory in aging IS due to waning of the kidney, one's lack of willpower to quit eating three bars of chocolate every night has NOTHING to do with the kidney. It is amazing how one small error in transmission can lead to such widespread misconceptions, and it underscores the importance of good translation methods to improve the transmission of Chinese medical knowledge. As for breaking out the flashcards again, it is frustrating when one has to re-learn a bunch of words that one has already painstakingly learned. It is easier to study traditional first and then learn simplified. Traditional is not more difficult than simplified in the modern day because we can use computers to type in Chinese, eliminating the historically difficult part of remembering how to write characters (vs. choosing them from a list in front of you). In fact, traditional script is easier to read than simplified because the words look more distinct. I only read both because I am basically forced to, all of my interactions with local books and written language in the hospital, not to mention menus and street signs are all traditional script because I am in Taiwan. But many of the books that I use to translate are from the PRC, so I have no choice but to use both. What a stupid idea it was to split a language into two systems! I suppose that it may have improved literacy for the past 50 years, but now that computers have made writing so much easier the gains are quickly becoming obsolete. Add that to dumb politics and you have a mess. Can you believe that Taiwan has invented a THIRD system of pinyin? It is making an even bigger mess of the street signs, simply because they can't adopt an excellent and established solution by virtue of its PRC origins. Nationalism is really interfering with the smooth running of the world! Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 > > > On Behalf Of Eric Brand > > This is the reason for the widespread mistranslation " the kidney > stores the will " in English. Originally, neijing commentary says > that the use of the character zhi (which, in some contexts- though > more rarely in CM- also means will) in this context uses the meaning > of the character zhi (as written with a yan radical), meaning > memory, mind. Eric, I am unclear what you are saying here. My traditional character version and 3 simplified Chinese versions (although I have a couple more at the office to check), all have the same character zhi. (Are we talking about the character with a shi4 and xin1 (»Ö) Which means 'will' - BTW- both the simplified and traditional are the same character. But all of the commentaries that I checked (4 so far - 2 mainstream Chinese, 1 off-beat, and 1 English) do not mention that this character is incorrect (is that what you are saying?) - Since there are 100's of commentaries on the neijing, I would like to hear more. But, currently I see no reason why the kidney does not store the will. Even the three English versions I checked all use 'will' and use this character zhi, that is also found in the Chinese versions. These English versions are claude larres, yang and chaces (via jia yi jing), and the atrocious Nelson Liansheng wu's..;. Since I am currently studying the neijing can you scan in some commentary that discusses this in more detail, or explain it here or privately? Also what character are you referring to with the yan radical? - Reduction of two traditional characters into one > simplified character has caused generations of students in the West > to link the kidney to will and willpower, when the original Chinese > was linking the kidney to memory. So although the decline of memory > in aging IS due to waning of the kidney, one's lack of willpower to > quit eating three bars of chocolate every night has NOTHING to do > with the kidney. It is amazing how one small error in transmission > can lead to such widespread misconceptions, and it underscores the > importance of good translation methods to improve the transmission > of Chinese medical knowledge. > > As for breaking out the flashcards again, it is frustrating when one > has to re-learn a bunch of words that one has already painstakingly > learned. It is easier to study traditional first and then learn > simplified. Traditional is not more difficult than simplified in > the modern day because we can use computers to type in Chinese, > eliminating the historically difficult part of remembering how to > write characters (vs. choosing them from a list in front of you). > In fact, traditional script is easier to read than simplified > because the words look more distinct. I only read both because I am > basically forced to, all of my interactions with local books and > written language in the hospital, not to mention menus and street > signs are all traditional script because I am in Taiwan. But many > of the books that I use to translate are from the PRC, so I have no > choice but to use both. > > What a stupid idea it was to split a language into two systems! I > suppose that it may have improved literacy for the past 50 years, > but now that computers have made writing so much easier the gains > are quickly becoming obsolete. Add that to dumb politics and you > have a mess. Can you believe that Taiwan has invented a THIRD > system of pinyin? It is making an even bigger mess of the street > signs, simply because they can't adopt an excellent and established > solution by virtue of its PRC origins. Nationalism is really > interfering with the smooth running of the world! > > Eric > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 meaning memory, mind. Reduction of two traditional characters into one simplified character has caused generations of students in the West to link the kidney to will and willpower, when the original Chinese was linking the kidney to memory. >>>>>> Eric i am curious what modern PRC textbooks have done with this. Do they ever refer to will? Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 > > > On Behalf Of > Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:19 AM > > Re: Re: tonsils > > meaning > memory, mind. Reduction of two traditional characters into one > simplified character has caused generations of students in the West > to link the kidney to will and willpower, when the original Chinese > was linking the kidney to memory. > >>>>>> > Eric > i am curious what modern PRC textbooks have done with this. Do they ever > refer to will? To interject, the modern PCR (advanced) textbook I am looking at uses zhi = will. So someone out there with some power thinks it is ok... -Jason > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 Simplified characters was a step towards an alphabetized system proposed in the PRC. For better or worse that step was too big of a leap and the writing system got stopped at simplified. doug > > What a stupid idea it was to split a language into two systems! I > suppose that it may have improved literacy for the past 50 years, > but now that computers have made writing so much easier the gains > are quickly becoming obsolete. Add that to dumb politics and you > have a mess. Can you believe that Taiwan has invented a THIRD > system of pinyin? It is making an even bigger mess of the street > signs, simply because they can't adopt an excellent and established > solution by virtue of its PRC origins. Nationalism is really > interfering with the smooth running of the world! > > Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 , " " <@c...> wrote: Since I am > currently studying the neijing can you scan in some commentary that > discusses this in more detail, or explain it here or privately? > > Also what character are you referring to with the yan radical? The neijing itself uses the same character (direction above heart) that is used in simplified. As you pointed out, this character is identical in simplified and traditional forms. However, there is commentary on the neijing that indicates that this character in the neijing context shares the meaning of zhi with a yan radical, which more closely relates to memory/mind than will. Zhi in general does mean will. But as I understand it, in the context of the neijing its use is synonymous with the zhi for mind/memory. The neijing is the source of statements like the kidney stores the zhi, the heart stores the shen, etc. It is the foundation of this theory. There is a brief discussion on this in the PD (try looking under kidney stores the mind, mind, five minds, etc.). The use of the word will in this context is found throughout many many English books, but Wiseman and Feng Ye consider this to be slightly incorrect. In some contexts, this same zhi does mean will, but this usage is more rare in CM literature (albeit more common in general Chinese). I can research the issue more thoroughly and get back to you on it. Basically, these are the two characters involved: §Ó is in the neijing, but it means »x in this context. I can't type this character with a simplified ¨¥ radical, but I am on a hospital computer with Chinese windows so I can't figure out what the deal is with the input (I can't type properly in Chinese because the computer uses bopomofo input instead of hanyu pinyin). Does that character exist on your machine? I think the deal is that that character (with the yan radical) doesn't exist in simplified, so it is simplified to the same zhi as will. Thus, the clarification of the term is only possible with traditional script. I think that is the deal with this term. I'll research it more and let you know. Can you type a zhi with a language (yan) radical next to it on your machine with PRC input? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 , " " <@c...> wrote: > > Eric > > i am curious what modern PRC textbooks have done with this. Do they ever > > refer to will? > > To interject, the modern PCR (advanced) textbook I am looking at uses zhi = > will. So someone out there with some power thinks it is ok... Well, yes, of course they use the same character. There is only one character to choose from. The neijing original and the modern word for will are the same word. But the meaning is apparently different in this context, and is explained by the use of this other zhi character (which appears to only exist in a complex form). Alon, the problem is that in Chinese, there is one character that can mean either thing depending on context. The Chinese books don't have any English (and the few that do have atrocious English by and large), and it is only in English that the problem becomes apparent. In Chinese, there is only one word. In English, there are two possibilities (at least). The way I understand it, the Chinese commentary on the meaning of the Chinese word indicates that its use in this context (the thing stored by the kidney) is related to memory/mind, not will. Does that make sense? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 , " " wrote: > > Simplified characters was a step towards an alphabetized system proposed in the PRC. For > better or worse that step was too big of a leap and the writing system got stopped at > simplified. I didn't know that. Thanks for sharing. Interestingly, Chinese is one of the few languages that cannot be completely written on a computer. We can fit all our letters on one keyboard, but in Chinese we sometimes need to specially create obscure characters for digital use, which can then only be displayed in certain fonts, etc. Hassle. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 Does that make sense >>>> Eric it does but what about verbal and schools, do they ever refer to will? or always only to memory Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 Eric, I think I get what you are saying, but it seems a little odd. But here is what I have seen: 1) When one reads commentary and a character has been swapped out then it will say so. None of the commentaries I checked (and I checked the one's at my work) say this is the case. -So if I hear you correctly, zhi (will) is used in all printed neijing forms, but the original character is not zhi (will), but this zhi with the yan radical which means mind. Yet all the English translations and commentaries by Chinese (as well as westerns) for some reason miss this and translate this as will. The Chinese use the character for will and not mind(?) My Chinese teachers used 'will' - Wouldn't the Chinese sources or teacher in the US be onto this if it were true? I am just having a hard time understanding here... I guess the point is this -> It seems like an off-beat theory since Multiple (7+ Chinese and English commentaries) do not make note of this. Like said previously there are 100's of commentaries on neijing, shang han lun etc etc. Many people say different things. Many things are contradictory. Many things are essentially wrong. Many are correct. And many times both ideas are correct. And many things will never be known and are justan idea. Essentially people argue not only about meaning of passages, but word / sentence / clause order, and like you point out characters that are supposed to be other characters, or are supposed to reference others, therefore changing the meaning. One sees this all the time. But for me to put much stake into these ideas I would like to see it prevalent in commentaries etc. otherwise IMO it is probably just 1 or 2 sources somewhere spouting off... But I would love to read any research you come up to support this idea. And if you can send over where you read this and the source it would be much appreciated. - > > > On Behalf Of Eric Brand > Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:36 AM > > Re: tonsils > > , " " > <@c...> wrote: > Since I am > > currently studying the neijing can you scan in some commentary that > > discusses this in more detail, or explain it here or privately? > > > > Also what character are you referring to with the yan radical? > > > The neijing itself uses the same character (direction above heart) > that is used in simplified. As you pointed out, this character is > identical in simplified and traditional forms. However, there is > commentary on the neijing that indicates that this character in the > neijing context shares the meaning of zhi with a yan radical, which > more closely relates to memory/mind than will. > > Zhi in general does mean will. But as I understand it, in the > context of the neijing its use is synonymous with the zhi for > mind/memory. The neijing is the source of statements like the > kidney stores the zhi, the heart stores the shen, etc. It is the > foundation of this theory. There is a brief discussion on this in > the PD (try looking under kidney stores the mind, mind, five minds, > etc.). The use of the word will in this context is found throughout > many many English books, but Wiseman and Feng Ye consider this to be > slightly incorrect. In some contexts, this same zhi does mean will, > but this usage is more rare in CM literature (albeit more common in > general Chinese). > > I can research the issue more thoroughly and get back to you on it. > > Basically, these are the two characters involved: §Ó is in the > neijing, but it means »x in this context. I can't type this > character with a simplified ¨¥ radical, but I am on a hospital > computer with Chinese windows so I can't figure out what the deal is > with the input (I can't type properly in Chinese because the > computer uses bopomofo input instead of hanyu pinyin). Does that > character exist on your machine? I think the deal is that that > character (with the yan radical) doesn't exist in simplified, so it > is simplified to the same zhi as will. Thus, the clarification of > the term is only possible with traditional script. I think that is > the deal with this term. I'll research it more and let you know. > Can you type a zhi with a language (yan) radical next to it on your > machine with PRC input? > > Eric > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 > > > On Behalf Of Eric Brand > Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:36 AM > > Re: tonsils > > , " " > <@c...> wrote: > Since I am > > currently studying the neijing can you scan in some commentary that > > discusses this in more detail, or explain it here or privately? > > > > Also what character are you referring to with the yan radical? > > > The neijing itself uses the same character (direction above heart) > that is used in simplified. As you pointed out, this character is > identical in simplified and traditional forms. However, there is > commentary on the neijing that indicates that this character in the > neijing context shares the meaning of zhi with a yan radical, which > more closely relates to memory/mind than will. > > Zhi in general does mean will. But as I understand it, in the > context of the neijing its use is synonymous with the zhi for > mind/memory. The neijing is the source of statements like the > kidney stores the zhi, the heart stores the shen, etc. It is the > foundation of this theory. There is a brief discussion on this in > the PD (try looking under kidney stores the mind, mind, five minds, > etc.). The use of the word will in this context is found throughout > many many English books, but Wiseman and Feng Ye consider this to be > slightly incorrect. In some contexts, this same zhi does mean will, > but this usage is more rare in CM literature (albeit more common in > general Chinese). > > I can research the issue more thoroughly and get back to you on it. > > Basically, these are the two characters involved: §Ó is in the > neijing, but it means »x in this context. I can't type this > character with a simplified ¨¥ radical, but I am on a hospital > computer with Chinese windows so I can't figure out what the deal is > with the input (I can't type properly in Chinese because the > computer uses bopomofo input instead of hanyu pinyin). Does that > character exist on your machine? I think the deal is that that > character (with the yan radical) doesn't exist in simplified, so it > is simplified to the same zhi as will. Thus, the clarification of > the term is only possible with traditional script. I think that is > the deal with this term. I'll research it more and let you know. > Can you type a zhi with a language (yan) radical next to it on your > machine with PRC input? BTW - I cannot find a character with a simplified yan + zhi, but can read the complex above. Let me know what you find. -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 And many things will never be known and are justan idea. Essentially people argue not only about meaning of passages, but word / sentence / clause order, and like you point out characters that are supposed to be other characters, or are supposed to reference others, therefore changing the meaning. >>>>> As a layman this always seems to me the bottom line Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 Eric, and Jason, I am sorry to be a little late jumping in to this thread, but I feel obligated to do so.... The fact that you are seeing only one Zhi (with out yan radical) in NeiJing you see today has *nothing* to do with what PRC did after 1949. There is only one Zhi (without yan radical) in the original form. Eric, since you are currently in Taiwan, go check out Huang Di Nei Jing Jin (today) Yi (meaning) published by Guo Li Bian Yi Guan (National editing/translating office) available through Zheng Zhong bookstore, or Huang Di Nei Jing Su Wen Yi (translation) Shi(explanation) published by Wen(literature) Guang(light) Tu (picture) Shu(book). Both are in traditional scripts, and you will see the same Zhi as you see in the PRC simplified scripts books. As Eric already pointed out, one has to understand the meaning of a word by learning its context. The many appearance of Zhi in NeiJing do carry different meanings. I don't know who started translating it to " will " but I have a hard time coming up with one single English word to capture all possible meanings for different contexts. Mike L. Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote: , " " <@c...> wrote: > Eric, > > Thanx for the upload, I will check it out later today... The more I try to run, the more I get smacked with traditional characters... Especially with my latest neijing readings... argh.... I guess I better make some new flashcards... I'm told that even in the PRC, traditional script is the only thing used at the higher levels of classical study (though of course the modern commentary is all in simplified script). Apparently there are too many ambiguities in simplified for the scholars to deal with, because many times two distinct traditional characters are rendered by the same simplified character. This is the reason for the widespread mistranslation " the kidney stores the will " in English. Originally, neijing commentary says that the use of the character zhi (which, in some contexts- though more rarely in CM- also means will) in this context uses the meaning of the character zhi (as written with a yan radical), meaning memory, mind. Reduction of two traditional characters into one simplified character has caused generations of students in the West to link the kidney to will and willpower, when the original Chinese was linking the kidney to memory. So although the decline of memory in aging IS due to waning of the kidney, one's lack of willpower to quit eating three bars of chocolate every night has NOTHING to do with the kidney. It is amazing how one small error in transmission can lead to such widespread misconceptions, and it underscores the importance of good translation methods to improve the transmission of Chinese medical knowledge. As for breaking out the flashcards again, it is frustrating when one has to re-learn a bunch of words that one has already painstakingly learned. It is easier to study traditional first and then learn simplified. Traditional is not more difficult than simplified in the modern day because we can use computers to type in Chinese, eliminating the historically difficult part of remembering how to write characters (vs. choosing them from a list in front of you). In fact, traditional script is easier to read than simplified because the words look more distinct. I only read both because I am basically forced to, all of my interactions with local books and written language in the hospital, not to mention menus and street signs are all traditional script because I am in Taiwan. But many of the books that I use to translate are from the PRC, so I have no choice but to use both. What a stupid idea it was to split a language into two systems! I suppose that it may have improved literacy for the past 50 years, but now that computers have made writing so much easier the gains are quickly becoming obsolete. Add that to dumb politics and you have a mess. Can you believe that Taiwan has invented a THIRD system of pinyin? It is making an even bigger mess of the street signs, simply because they can't adopt an excellent and established solution by virtue of its PRC origins. Nationalism is really interfering with the smooth running of the world! Eric Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 As Eric already pointed out, one has to understand the meaning of a word by learning its context. The many appearance of Zhi in NeiJing do carry different meanings. I don't know who started translating it to " will " but I have a hard time coming up with one single English word to capture all possible meanings for different contexts. >>>>>> Mike So do you think that at times the original did mean will or never? Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 On Sep 28, 2005, at 7:37 PM, Mike Liaw wrote: > I don't know who started translating it to " will " but I have a hard > time coming up with one single English word to capture all possible > meanings for different contexts. -- Is it possible that it came from the French, who I believe were translating medical texts from Chinese earlier than the English speakers? Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 , " " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Does that make sense > >>>> > Eric it does but what about verbal and schools, do they ever refer to will? or always only to memory Well, Feng Ye learned CM in a university setting and he explained to me that he feels that will is a bit incorrect. He describes zhi as a word that is closely related to shen (the two are commonly used in a compound phrase translated as spirit-mind, for lack of a more specific English equivalent) and distinct from the general vernacular use of zhi as will. But the best way for me to answer your question would be to ask a group of resident doctors here at Chang Gung. They are all university-trained and understand English well enough to know what will means to us. I'll ask around and get a more comprehensive answer for you. It is a very good question that you are asking. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 I'll ask around and get a more comprehensive answer for you. It is a very good question that you are asking. >>>> thanks. I think another way to look this up is to look at the paragraphs where it is used and if the rest of the paragraph talks about psychological states i would think the use in that paragraph would refer to will and not memory. Who knows Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 , " " <@c...> wrote: > Eric, > 1) When one reads commentary and a character has been swapped out then it > will say so. None of the commentaries I checked (and I checked the one's at > my work) say this is the case. There was no character swap. The original neijing character IS the very same zhi that we use for will. The character with the yan radical is only featured in commentary to clarify the use of the word zhi in the neijing. > -So if I hear you correctly, zhi (will) is used in all printed neijing > forms, but the original character is not zhi (will), but this zhi with the > yan radical which means mind. No. The original character is the same zhi (will). Redundant to my above comment, sorry. > I guess the point is this -> It seems like an off-beat theory since Multiple > (7+ Chinese and English commentaries) do not make note of this. Chinese commentaries in simplified may not note the other character because it is no longer in use in simplified. The two characters (the original and the one with the yan radical used as an explanation in commentary) are the same character now in the PRC. The big question is, how do the Chinese conceive of it? Since will/concentration power/mind/memory are using the same word in their language, how do they divide it? I never actually had a Chinese teacher for the basic theory class, so I have never heard an explanation of the five minds from a Chinese person at the most root level. Understanding English is difficult, and many Chinese teachers will use a word such as will because they know that will is one translation of zhi, they know that we know it as such, and they would not necessarily have enough confidence with their English to challenge words and think of better alternatives. How does Unschuld deal with this in his Neijing? If zhi is translated as will instead of mind, how does it translate into therapy? It makes little sense that stabilizing the will would be a therapy for insomnia or epilepsy, but stabilizing the mind does make sense in this context. The close relationship between zhi and shen accounts for the fact that many shen-quieting medicinals are said to stabilize the zhi. Will is not an incorrect translation for zhi, but it is only part of zhi's meaning, and not necessarily the part most relevant to the discussion of what the kidney stores. The concept overlaps in Chinese, so it isn't really a mutually exclusive issue. Zhi means all of it- will, mind, memory. I think the use of willpower in the context of the kidney is taking it a bit too far though, that is my main point. A spirit-quieting medicinal has nothing to do with willpower. > But I would love to read any research you come up to support this idea. And > if you can send over where you read this and the source it would be much > appreciated. What I know came from a simple conversation with Nigel and Feng Ye over steamed fish and spicy pork. I need to follow up to get the actual source texts and then we can have a more informed discussion. The PD has a brief discussion (with source citations) under kidney stores mind and mind. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 , Mike Liaw <mikeliaw> wrote: Both are in traditional scripts, and you will see the same Zhi as you see in the PRC simplified scripts books. Mike, thanks for your comments. Just to be clear, I never said that the neijing used a different zhi. It uses the same zhi, no yan radical. The zhi with the yan radical only appears in commentary, not the original. Thanks for the references, I'll check them out. What is your opinion on the meaning of zhi in the sense of shen cang zhi (kidney stores the zhi)? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 Eric, Yes, you are right, I mixed up the original NeiJing content with the commentary you were talking about. Who's commentary is it, BTW? I was afraid, you were going to ask me how I would translate Shen Cang Zhi, and you did! :-) To tell you the truth, I have problem with even translating Cang to Store (as in Shen Cang Zhi.) If this is understood incorrectly, one definitely will have problem with translating what it " Cang's. " Sure, I agree with translating the Cang, as in Gan Cang Xue (Liver stores blood),into Store. Another example would be in Shen Zhe Zhu Shui, Shou Wu Zang Liu Fu Zhi Jing Er Cang Zhi (Kidney governs water; it receives the Essence from the five organs and six viscera, and stores it.) What I accept here is, one stores material, which posesses unarguably yin quality. Whereas in Gan Cang Hun, Xin Cang Shen, Pi Can Yi, Fei Cang Po, and Shen Cang Zhi, these objects are not even containable, let alone being stored, for lack of strong yin quality, IMO. Cang has at least two meanings, to most lay person, when used as a verb: 1) To store, 2) to hide. The beauty/elegance, or trouble, of Chinese is, these fundamental meanings can be further derived or transformed, as in the six principles of creating Chinese characters which made the language feels so complex. One always stores something tangible (a physical object, or a mega byte of data) whereas one can hide something either tangible or intangible. In English, do we say " a hidden meaning is stored? " Or, do we say " a quality it reflects is stored? " Or, do we say " a metaphysical capability is stored? " Do you now see why I have problem accepting Store as the translation for Cang as in Gan Cang Hun or Shen Cang Zhi? What's interesting is, an object is unknown when it's hidden; when it's known, it actually is exposed, or revealed. Now, what is Zhi? What is Hun? Let's look at how Gan Cang Hun came about: Gan Cang Xue (Liver stores blood); Xue She Hun. (Blood houses hun) (Therefore,) Gan Cang Hun. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a simple analogy for Kidney. The closest one I can get is the one I cited earlier, " it receives Essence.... and stores it. " What is missing (and probably appropriate to add) here is something close to " Jing She Zhi " (Essence houses Zhi), therefore, Shen Can Zhi. Zhi, to me, is possessing and continual nurturing of the potential to grow and live normally (towards physical soundness) as if there is a driving force behind it. The physical soundness certainly includes, in modern terms, having proper hormone, proper memory, etc. So, the Zhi with yan radical covers only a partial meaning, IMO. I know this interpretation will probably raise some controversy, but heck, how do you like the lead-in background? I am afraid it's getting too late for me, so I have to cut it short. With the background work in these paragraphs, hopefully you can figure out why I came up with this translation, but I'll leave a more succinct version to you or until I have some time in the next couple of days. Mike L. --- Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote: > , Mike Liaw > <mikeliaw> > wrote: > Both are in traditional scripts, and you will see > the same Zhi as you > see in the PRC simplified scripts books. > > Mike, thanks for your comments. Just to be clear, I > never said that > the neijing used a different zhi. It uses the same > zhi, no yan > radical. The zhi with the yan radical only appears > in commentary, not > the original. > > Thanks for the references, I'll check them out. > > What is your opinion on the meaning of zhi in the > sense of shen cang > zhi (kidney stores the zhi)? > > Eric > > > Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 On Sep 29, 2005, at 12:32 AM, Eric Brand wrote: > The PD has a brief discussion (with source citations) under kidney > stores mind and mind. -- Just to fill this out: Wiseman's Fundamentals of , revised edition, states: - the kidneys " ...engenders marrow " (p69) - " Because the kidney governs the bones and engenders marrow and because the brain is known as the 'sea of marrow,' a close link can be seen between the kidney and the brain. " (p69) - the brain (as an organ) is marrow (p72) - " Chinese medicine ascribes the mind, consciousness, and thought to the heart, and to some extent to the liver and kidney. " (p72) this refers to early traditional understanding. - Li Shi-Zhen et al, stated " the brain is the seat of the original spirit " & " a person's memory is in the brain " . (p72) (RK: therefore disputing the earlier connection with the heart?) Wiseman doesn't mention will, either in connection with the kidneys or elsewhere in Fundamentals, as far as I can see. Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 > > > On Behalf Of Rory Kerr > Thursday, September 29, 2005 5:38 AM > > Re: Re: tonsils > > On Sep 29, 2005, at 12:32 AM, Eric Brand wrote: > > The PD has a brief discussion (with source citations) under kidney > > stores mind and mind. > -- > > Just to fill this out: > > Wiseman's Fundamentals of , revised edition, states: > > - the kidneys " ...engenders marrow " (p69) > - " Because the kidney governs the bones and engenders marrow and > because the brain is known as the 'sea of marrow,' a close link can be > seen between the kidney and the brain. " (p69) > - the brain (as an organ) is marrow (p72) > - " Chinese medicine ascribes the mind, consciousness, and thought to > the heart, and to some extent to the liver and kidney. " (p72) this > refers to early traditional understanding. > - Li Shi-Zhen et al, stated " the brain is the seat of the original > spirit " & " a person's memory is in the brain " . (p72) (RK: therefore > disputing the earlier connection with the heart?) > > Wiseman doesn't mention will, either in connection with the kidneys or > elsewhere in Fundamentals, as far as I can see. That is because Wiseman translates zhi (will) as mind. - > > Rory > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 On Sep 29, 2005, at 9:31 AM, wrote: > RK> Wiseman doesn't mention will, either in connection with the > kidneys or > RK> elsewhere in Fundamentals, as far as I can see. > > That is because Wiseman translates zhi (will) as mind. -- Of course. Someone had asked if not kidney, then what does will relate to. My comment was to say that at least according to Wiseman & Ellis, they don't discuss the matter elsewhere. Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.