Guest guest Posted October 29, 2001 Report Share Posted October 29, 2001 Dear Pat, Welcome aboard. Sorry to hear about the cancer. May I ask are you taking the beta-siterstol? Do you live around Lake Chappala? good luck, Frank Gettingwell, " Pat and Gail Muldowney " <sleeper@l...> wrote: > Hello, Thanks for enrolling me. I have prostate cancer with bone mets and I may be failing current testosterone suppression medication. My attitude is good and we are waiting hopefully for a cure. Thanks, Pat in Mexico > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2001 Report Share Posted October 29, 2001 Hi Pat Try http://www.prostate90.com then join Larrys mail group - it has worked for me and dozens of others. Also we may be onto a real cure. Rick Pat and Gail Muldowney wrote: > Hello, Thanks for enrolling me. I have prostate cancer with bone mets and I may be failing current testosterone suppression medication. My attitude is good and we are waiting hopefully for a cure. Thanks, Pat in Mexico Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2001 Report Share Posted October 29, 2001 Dear Rick, What is the cure? --- Richard Muenzer <r.muenzer wrote: > Hi Pat > Try http://www.prostate90.com then join > Larrys mail group - it has worked for me > and dozens of others. Also we may be onto a real > cure. > > Rick > > > Pat and Gail Muldowney wrote: > > > Hello, Thanks for enrolling me. I have prostate > cancer with bone mets and I may be failing current > testosterone suppression medication. My attitude is > good and we are waiting hopefully for a cure. > Thanks, Pat in Mexico > > > Make a great connection at Personals. http://personals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2001 Report Share Posted October 29, 2001 Dear Pat did you read the article yesterday about the omega 3 oil and cottage cheese? Claiming excellent success.All our cells need omega 3 and most of us are very deficient. They suggest divided over the day 3-6 Tbsp Flax-oil blended with 1/2 Cup to one cup of cottage cheese. The cottage cheese supplies the sulphur needed to assimilate the omega 3. Go to the article in the archives it holds much promise. Be kind to animals, hug your pet every day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2001 Report Share Posted October 29, 2001 Dear Pat, I don't know if you could find it usefull or you may already know most of these things but here is a site with some refs. to prostate c. thaat I had not read before. http://cat007.com/@betabook.htm It is an on line book about prostate health but has a lot of cancer studies and interactions with quite a few substances. good luck, Frank Gettingwell, " Pat and Gail Muldowney " <sleeper@l...> wrote: I have prostate cancer with bone mets and I may be failing current testosterone suppression medication. My attitude is good and we are waiting hopefully for a cure. Thanks, Pat in Mexico > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2001 Report Share Posted October 31, 2001 Hi Frank, No I'm not taking beta-siterstol and have never heard of it after reading thousands of messages from other prostate cancer sufferers. fill me in. yes, we live in Ajijic, the Gringolandia of Mexico. Nice weather but too many Texans and Canadians. Pat - <califpacific Sunday, October 28, 2001 7:27 PM Re: prostate cancer > Dear Pat, > Welcome aboard. > > Sorry to hear about the cancer. > > May I ask are you taking the beta-siterstol? > > Do you live around Lake Chappala? > > good luck, > Frank > > > Gettingwell, " Pat and Gail Muldowney " <sleeper@l...> > wrote: > > Hello, Thanks for enrolling me. I have prostate cancer with bone > mets and I may be failing current testosterone suppression medication. > My attitude is good and we are waiting hopefully for a cure. Thanks, > Pat in Mexico > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2001 Report Share Posted October 31, 2001 Hi Rick, I tried to get on that list recently but was turned down. Will try again. I read Larry's book when I was first diagnosed and did his fast etc. but we later discovered that the cancer had already metastasized so fasting and other dietary changes didn't do much. Thanks for your comments. Pat - " Richard Muenzer " <r.muenzer Sunday, October 28, 2001 7:37 PM Re: prostate cancer > Hi Pat > Try http://www.prostate90.com then join Larrys mail group - it has worked for me > and dozens of others. Also we may be onto a real cure. > > Rick > > > Pat and Gail Muldowney wrote: > > > Hello, Thanks for enrolling me. I have prostate cancer with bone mets and I may be failing current testosterone suppression medication. My attitude is good and we are waiting hopefully for a cure. Thanks, Pat in Mexico > > > > > Getting well is done one step at a time, day by day, building health > and well being. > > To learn more about the Gettingwell group, please visit > Gettingwell > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2001 Report Share Posted October 31, 2001 Dear Pat, I sent you a message yesterday that talks about beta-siterstol a lot. > califpacific > Mon Oct 29, 2001 2:15 pm > Re: prostate cancer >know most of these things but here is a site with some refs. to >prostate c. >thaat I had not read before. >http://cat007.com/@betabook.htm > > It is an on line book about prostate health but has a lot of >cancer studies and interactions with quite a few substances. >good luck, >Frank Go to that address and you can read it or print it out .Only like 10 pages long. Frank ##################################################################### Gettingwell, " Pat and Gail Muldowney " <sleeper@l...> wrote: > Hi Frank, No I'm not taking beta-siterstol and have never heard of it after > reading thousands of messages from other prostate cancer sufferers. fill me > in. yes, we live in Ajijic, the Gringolandia of Mexico. Nice weather but > too many Texans and Canadians. Pat > - > <califpacific> > <Gettingwell> > Sunday, October 28, 2001 7:27 PM > Re: prostate cancer > > > > Dear Pat, > > Welcome aboard. > > > > Sorry to hear about the cancer. > > > > May I ask are you taking the beta-siterstol? > > > > Do you live around Lake Chappala? > > > > good luck, > > Frank > > > > > > Gettingwell, " Pat and Gail Muldowney " <sleeper@l...> > > wrote: > > > Hello, Thanks for enrolling me. I have prostate cancer with bone > > mets and I may be failing current testosterone suppression medication. > > My attitude is good and we are waiting hopefully for a cure. Thanks, > > Pat in Mexico > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2001 Report Share Posted October 31, 2001 hey yall whats wrong with us Texans? HaHa Lorie - " Pat and Gail Muldowney " <sleeper Tuesday, October 30, 2001 5:02 PM Re: Re: prostate cancer > Hi Frank, No I'm not taking beta-siterstol and have never heard of it after > reading thousands of messages from other prostate cancer sufferers. fill me > in. yes, we live in Ajijic, the Gringolandia of Mexico. Nice weather but > too many Texans and Canadians. Pat > - > <califpacific > > Sunday, October 28, 2001 7:27 PM > Re: prostate cancer > > > > Dear Pat, > > Welcome aboard. > > > > Sorry to hear about the cancer. > > > > May I ask are you taking the beta-siterstol? > > > > Do you live around Lake Chappala? > > > > good luck, > > Frank > > > > > > Gettingwell, " Pat and Gail Muldowney " <sleeper@l...> > > wrote: > > > Hello, Thanks for enrolling me. I have prostate cancer with bone > > mets and I may be failing current testosterone suppression medication. > > My attitude is good and we are waiting hopefully for a cure. Thanks, > > Pat in Mexico > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2001 Report Share Posted November 1, 2001 Frank, Thanks for the information. I will certainly take a look at it. Pat - <califpacific Tuesday, October 30, 2001 5:56 PM Re: prostate cancer > Dear Pat, > > I sent you a message yesterday that talks about beta-siterstol a lot. > > > califpacific > > Mon Oct 29, 2001 2:15 pm > > Re: prostate cancer > >know most of these things but here is a site with some refs. to > >prostate c. > >thaat I had not read before. > >http://cat007.com/@betabook.htm > > > > It is an on line book about prostate health but has a lot of > >cancer studies and interactions with quite a few substances. > >good luck, > >Frank > > > Go to that address and you can read it or print it out .Only like 10 > pages long. > > Frank > ##################################################################### > > Gettingwell, " Pat and Gail Muldowney " <sleeper@l...> > wrote: > > Hi Frank, No I'm not taking beta-siterstol and have never heard of > it after > > reading thousands of messages from other prostate cancer sufferers. > fill me > > in. yes, we live in Ajijic, the Gringolandia of Mexico. Nice > weather but > > too many Texans and Canadians. Pat > > - > > <califpacific> > > <Gettingwell> > > Sunday, October 28, 2001 7:27 PM > > Re: prostate cancer > > > > > > > Dear Pat, > > > Welcome aboard. > > > > > > Sorry to hear about the cancer. > > > > > > May I ask are you taking the beta-siterstol? > > > > > > Do you live around Lake Chappala? > > > > > > good luck, > > > Frank > > > > > > > > > Gettingwell, " Pat and Gail Muldowney " <sleeper@l...> > > > wrote: > > > > Hello, Thanks for enrolling me. I have prostate cancer with > bone > > > mets and I may be failing current testosterone suppression > medication. > > > My attitude is good and we are waiting hopefully for a cure. > Thanks, > > > Pat in Mexico > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Hi Rick, I tried to get on that list recently but was turned down. Will try again. I read Larry's book when I was first diagnosed and did his fast etc. but we later discovered that the cancer had already metastasized so fasting and other dietary changes didn't do much. Thanks for your comments. Pat Pat, have you tried the FlaxSeedOil2 list? The list owner is a prostate cancer survivor and there's lots of good info in the archives. The older archives will be on the FlaxSeedOil list, which is still there only for archives. Henrietta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2001 Report Share Posted November 9, 2001 Try this formula it is just for the prostate. Peg The PROSTATE FORMULA Four parts Saw Palmetto Berry One part Cleaver's Herb One part Nettle Root (not the leaf) One part Thuja Leaf Mix all these herbs together as a tea. Soak them overnight and bring to the boil and simmer for 15 minutes (not more) Take six cups of tea per day. Find a job, post your resume. http://careers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2001 Report Share Posted November 9, 2001 >>>>>Try this formula it is just for the prostate. Hi Peg, how much water do you use ?? Regards, Dorothy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2001 Report Share Posted November 11, 2001 Some things that puzzle me. _____________ Get the FREE email that has everyone talking at http://www.mail2world.com <> > > P Mahan > 11/8/2001 6:22:34 PM > Gettingwell > prostate cancer > > here is something else. > Peg > > PROSTRATE MASSAGE > The prostrate sits about four or five inches in from > the rectum. It can > be felt from the wall of the colon . *****The prostate is not in the rectum although it can be palpated *** thru the wall. ***** > Have your doctor use this method, and you may > find, as others have, > that poisonous, shiny black wastes come out of you - > once they are > liberated from the prostrate glands. I know that > normal prostrate fluid > is supposed to be clear. But I have been told that the > material that > comes out of the rectum in some men after doing this > is black like coal. ********Since the prostate is not in the rectum how can *** a discharge from the prostate come out of the rectum? *** ******** > ....One man uses this method at least once a year...to > make sure he will > never die of prostate cancer like his father. Every > year, his body > eliminates the same black material........ ******* How? ******** > The only professional person, I have had discuss it > with me is a > Korean Urologist that they sent me to, and I mentioned > it to him, and he > said, " Oh sure, it is a common practice " .... > Dr. Schultze gives many case histories but I thought > you would be > interested in this. > > > > > Find a job, post your resume. > http://careers. > > Getting well is done one step at a time, day by day, building health > and well being. > > To learn more about the Gettingwell group, > Subscription and list archives are at: > Gettingwell > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2001 Report Share Posted November 11, 2001 What is the puzzle here this is supposed to work except I am a woman so have never done it. I am sure a close friend could do this massage and if I was a guy I would give it a try if it ment no surgery. Peg - > Some things that puzzle me. > _____________ > Get the FREE email that has everyone talking at > http://www.mail2world.com > > <> > > > > P Mahan > > 11/8/2001 6:22:34 PM > > Gettingwell > > prostate cancer > > > > here is something else. > > Peg > > > > PROSTRATE MASSAGE > > The prostrate sits about four or five inches in > from > > the rectum. It can > > be felt from the wall of the colon . > *****The prostate is not in the rectum although it > can be palpated *** > thru the wall. > ***** > > > Have your doctor use this method, and you may > > find, as others have, > > that poisonous, shiny black wastes come out of you > - > > once they are > > liberated from the prostrate glands. I know that > > normal prostrate fluid > > is supposed to be clear. But I have been told that > the > > material that > > comes out of the rectum in some men after doing > this > > is black like coal. > ********Since the prostate is not in the rectum how > can *** > a discharge from the prostate come out of the > rectum? *** > ******** > > > ....One man uses this method at least once a > year...to > > make sure he will > > never die of prostate cancer like his father. > Every > > year, his body > > eliminates the same black material........ > ******* > How? > ******** > > The only professional person, I have had discuss > it > > with me is a > > Korean Urologist that they sent me to, and I > mentioned > > it to him, and he > > said, " Oh sure, it is a common practice " .... > > Dr. Schultze gives many case histories but I > thought > > you would be > > interested in this. > > > > > > > > > > Find a job, post your resume. > > http://careers. > > > > Getting well is done one step at a time, day by > day, building health > > and well being. > > > > To learn more about the Gettingwell group, > > Subscription and list archives are at: > > Gettingwell > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2001 Report Share Posted November 11, 2001 I am sorry i am so late awnsering you but I do not understand the question. It is good for every one to drink 8 glasses of clean water a day. Peg > >>>>>Try this formula it is just for the prostate. > > > > > > Hi Peg, > how much water do you use ?? > > Regards, Dorothy. > > > Find a job, post your resume. http://careers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2001 Report Share Posted November 11, 2001 Depends on how big of a quantity of herbs you have. See a part can be a teaspoon or a cup which ever you chose if the part you chose is just a teaspoon of each herb then a cup of water would be enough to step that much but if it is greater it will take more water to cover the herbs and step them.Don't pay attention to my other post about water. Peg --- Dorothy <dotcats wrote: > >>>>>Try this formula it is just for the prostate. > > > > > > Hi Peg, > how much water do you use ?? > > Regards, Dorothy. > > > Find a job, post your resume. http://careers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2001 Report Share Posted November 11, 2001 Hi Peg, thank you. Will put that in my *hope i never need* folder. <G> Take care. Regards, Dorothy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2001 Report Share Posted November 11, 2001 Hi Peg, The puzzle is that since the prostate is not in the rectum How can the drainage from massaging the prostate come out of the rectum? I do believe the massaging produces good results but the anal discharge has me wondering. ron _____________ Get the FREE email that has everyone talking at http://www.mail2world.com <> > > P Mahan > 11/10/2001 4:32:37 PM > Gettingwell > Re: prostate cancer > > What is the puzzle here this is supposed to work > except I am a woman so have never done it. > I am sure a close friend could do this massage and if > I was a guy I would give it a try if it ment no > surgery. > Peg > > - > > Some things that puzzle me. > > > _____________ > > Get the FREE email that has everyone talking at > > http://www.mail2world.com > > > > <> > > > > > > P Mahan > > > 11/8/2001 6:22:34 PM > > > Gettingwell > > > prostate cancer > > > > > > here is something else. > > > Peg > > > > > > PROSTRATE MASSAGE > > > The prostrate sits about four or five inches in > > from > > > the rectum. It can > > > be felt from the wall of the colon . > > *****The prostate is not in the rectum although it > > can be palpated *** > > thru the wall. > > ***** > > > > > Have your doctor use this method, and you may > > > find, as others have, > > > that poisonous, shiny black wastes come out of you > > - > > > once they are > > > liberated from the prostrate glands. I know that > > > normal prostrate fluid > > > is supposed to be clear. But I have been told that > > the > > > material that > > > comes out of the rectum in some men after doing > > this > > > is black like coal. > > ********Since the prostate is not in the rectum how > > can *** > > a discharge from the prostate come out of the > > rectum? *** > > ******** > > > > > ....One man uses this method at least once a > > year...to > > > make sure he will > > > never die of prostate cancer like his father. > > Every > > > year, his body > > > eliminates the same black material........ > > ******* > > How? > > ******** > > > The only professional person, I have had discuss > > it > > > with me is a > > > Korean Urologist that they sent me to, and I > > mentioned > > > it to him, and he > > > said, " Oh sure, it is a common practice " .... > > > Dr. Schultze gives many case histories but I > > thought > > > you would be > > > interested in this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Find a job, post your resume. > > > http://careers. > > > > > > Getting well is done one step at a time, day by > > day, building health > > > and well being. > > > > > > To learn more about the Gettingwell group, > > > Subscription and list archives are at: > > > Gettingwell > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2001 Report Share Posted November 11, 2001 Dear Ron Being I am female I have not experianced this. I was relayed to me from anouthe herbalist I know and he swears that is the way it happens. Maybe it works on some other things in the system to which is good. Peg > Hi Peg, > The puzzle is that since the prostate is not in the > rectum > How can the drainage from massaging the prostate > come > out of the rectum? > I do believe the massaging produces good results but > the > anal discharge has me wondering. > > ron Find a job, post your resume. http://careers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 Permission granted Phil but please make sure your group knows where you got the material from (i.e. this list TCM) and for whom the material was written (i.e. members of my list EPCEL). This way with complete opennes we will hopefully have some cross-fertilisation of ideas. Sammy. [] 01 October 2003 02:18 Chinese Medicine Prostate Cancer Hi All, & Hi Sammy, Sammy, Many thanks for the fine summary of BPH throught to PC. Could I have your permission to cross-post to the Chinese Herb Academy List? CHA has >800 herbalists on board. IMO, a discussion of current attempts to treat BPH and PC with herbal medicine and/or acupuncture would be very useful. Best regards, Phil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <ga.bates Date sent: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 23:38:28 +0100 Ken and All, The prostate is a primary male sexual characteristic having its embryological origins as described previously by Emmanuel " It is the male organ which is homologous with (embryologically from the same tissue as) the female uterus " . During growth the male prostate differentiates itself from the female uterus by morphological changes which position it at the base of the bladder and through which the urethra passes. Manual examination or digital rectal examination (DRE): When fully developed the prostate is a small walnut shaped muscular gland which may be digitally palpated via the colonic mucosa. A normal prostate should feel solid, smooth and round without asymmetry. Observing standard clinical practice (surgical glove and anti-friction gel), a normal palpation of the prostate with the fingertip should not be painful. After maturation the prostate consists of both muscle and glandular tissue (similar to the breast) and provides a thick milky fluid (semen) to help express sperm cells into the vagina. The prostate sits upon the urethra and it is from the prostate and seminal vesicles that prostatic fluid is pumped during orgasm. Because of variations in sexual activity during the life time of the male the prostate is capable of undergoing changes in size to maximise reproductive capacity at crucial times and minimise energy loss and wasteful sexual activity during less critical periods (e.g. during times of seasonal hardship). These changes in prostate size do not normally affect urinary function. Hormone receptors in prostatic tissue respond to growth triggers during puberty and thereafter. Secondary sexual growth inhibition factors impose limits on the size of the prostate despite high levels of androgen in the young sexually active male. From the thirties onward in many men the prostate undergoes changes that reflect ageing. Various processes including capillary atherosclerosis, urinary reflux and virus infection contribute to a benign prostatic hyperplasy (BPH - or prostatic enlargement) that may impact on free passage of urine through the organ. Prostatic interepithelial neoplasia (PIN) is believed to occur after BPH induced cellular breakdown facilitates leakage of prostatic cell- fragments into the rich growth supporting environment of prostatic fluid stored in the organ and the seminal vesicles. A final stage to prostatic carcinoma (PC) may be facilitated by changes in the male sex-steroid hormone mileau which interfere with the normal homeostatic processes controlling prostate size and cellular response to growth triggers. Despite occult PC being age-dependent with a consistent distribution across cultures worldwide, there is a strong tendency in western society for the disease to become manifest and often fatal. Men of African descent living in the west have a higher incidence of PC. This probably reflects socio-economic, cultural and life-chance patterns, rather than a racial connection. Indeed, there is no evidence that Africans, or any other rural group from the Eskimo to the Bushman are more (or less) prone to PC regardless of ethnic dietary preferences for meat or fat or carbohydrates in the context of daily subsistence living. By contrast second and third generation diaspora acquire the same (or worse) tendency to PC in the context of a western diet and lifestyle. Many contributing factors to carcinogenesis have been postulated from xenoestrogenic pesticides and packaging plastics to the 'male menopause' and the disruption of male hormones in the workplace. Symptoms of BPH may often go unnoticed until an incident (perhaps through stress or infection) precipitates subjective awareness of dysuria: for example nocturia, latency; or inability to 'pee' with a full sensation, dribbling and pain in the urethra. PC itself may be associated with pain on ejaculation and blood in the urine. However, many cases of fully blown metastatic PC occur without prior warning. PC metastasises to the bone generally in the lower back and to the lymph nodes. Some western texts now associate PC with low back pain and weakness in the legs - text book Kidney Yin deficiency - a TCM influence that has not had its full potential realised. In the 1950's it was discovered that death due to metastatic PC could be averted by five years or more by bilateral orchietomy. Since then the procedure has become commonplace, and in some countries mandatory NHS treatment for advanced PC. Albeit castration removes the hormonal impulse of prostatic tissue to grow this is only a temporary palliation since the condition returns in an androgen independent form (AIPC). Because of its unpleasantness alternatives treatments to castration have always been sought. Modern gene manipulation techniques hold some hope in the distant future, but the mainstays are still surgery and radiation which may remove local disease. Once the PC is said to have 'breached the prostatic capsule' and become systemic, local therapy is useless and hence the continued need for castration to palliate the condition. Sadly, many men with PC end their days being castrated either physically or chemically. Chemical castration agents block the production of testosterone (e.g. estrogens which lead to feminisation) or anti-androgens (AA) which block sex-steroid cell receptors. A class of drug known as luteinising hormone releasing hormone agonist analogs (LHRH-a) is used to inhibit testosterone production by a 'crowbar effect' on the hypothalamus-pituitary. All forms of androgen suppression lead to serious side effects in men including bone demineralisation, muscle loss, affective and cognitive disorders including Alzheimer's disease. Detection: The 'PSA' or prostate specific antigen is a protein detected in blood which normally resides within the healthy prostatic cell. Once PSA is detectable in significant amount in the blood it is generally accepted that PC is present although small amounts may indicate BPH [ range 0 - 4 ng/ml normal to 40 years of age and then add 2 ng/ml per decade until 80 years.] A PSA > 20 ng/ml is generally regarded as indicative of PC at any age. The 'free PSA' is a measure of bound and unbound PSA proteins and is held to be more reliable than the 20 ng/ml ceiling. Staging: PC itself may be described by the TNM staging method as well as what is known as Gleason Score (GS) which is histologically determined based on cellular architecture - the higher the Gleason Number [ range 0 - 5 ] the less differentiated the cell. A Score is obtained by determining the two most frequent cellular architectures and adding. Gleason Scores between 0 - 10 are then possible. A GS is believed to predict fairly accurately patient survival: a GS 10 being the least prognostically hopeful. Prognostic distinctions for a particular GS are commutative: so for example a GS [ 3 + 4] = 7 is different from a GS [ 4 + 3] also = 7 [ In this case the 3+4 is prognostically better than the 4+3]. Most western cancer agencies are now recommending that all men over the age of 50 undergo a DRE and PSA test. Individuals with a family history or members of certain racial populations (Africans) are advised to start testing at age 40. PC can be treated successfully if detected early and given appropriate timely treatment. Some men however prefer not to know what their PSA is due to a possible false positive indication, and in order to avoid potentially destructive side effects of treatment. This position is also taken by some governments as a cheap alternative to national screening programmes that will appeal to the ignorant and uninformed. Failure to treat PC may lead to premature death. In the UK 1000 men under the age of retirement die of PC every year. In the USA the figure is about 5000. About 50,000 men in all die of prostate cancer every year in the USA, 10,000 in the UK. I hope this has helped TCM students appreciate the importance of this disease in the west. There are many informational pages on prostate cancer available on the internet. They all have an agenda of one sort or another from the persuasive pieces written by the doctor trying to recruit another patient for his clinic to the pharmaceutical company eager to demonstrate how effective their brand of treatment can be. This piece has been written with the inside knowledge of one who has survived the condition for seven years as a non-castrate. I am trying to translate my survival perience into something that will make sense on both sides of the east-west conventional-traditional divide. Unfortunately modern medicine knows as much about natural hormone control as traditional medicine knows about sex-steroid synthesis. Just as modern physics needed a Heisenberg to crystallise the uncertainties of quantum mechanics, so we need a master alchemist who will fuse ancient and modern into a brand new paradigm. A successful treatment that did not impact on male quality of life would certainly put TCM on the map and it is something I advise any ambitious student to put his or her mind to. It is getting late now and I have spent most of the evening putting this together. At some time in the future I'll take a look at the existing TCM treatments for PC. In the meantime you might like to take a look yourself at PC-SPES a very famous TCM/WM recipe that really clobbered PSA and then got clobbered itself by the FDA for its pains; or, Equiguard the big promise that never seemed to materialise. Or perhaps some of the more recent treatments Vervain for instance (is it just another estrogen analogue ?) or Sarcandra - does it really reduce prostatic inflammation ? What about DIM the Great White Hope ? [ No I am not being an inverted racialist, DIM is made from extract of white cabbage ;-] Cheers, Sammy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2003 Report Share Posted October 6, 2003 In a message dated 10/6/2003 6:59:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ga.bates writes: They also probably associate testosterone in men with annoying sexual pestering and probably think most men would do better to be more like women with less of that kind of 'aggression'. A lot of that sexual aggression is socio-cultural and nothing to do with testosterone levels. Moreover, men are 'wired' that way once puberty does its job. This aside posted by Sammy is, in my belief, more important that most people give credit. The emotional side of sexuality is very powerful and often overlooked. Most men are wired for sex and would in many relationships, like to have sex more often than most women. Many women think the mans desire for sex is pestering and may begin to emotionally pull back which can create a negative feelings about sexual contact in the relationship on both sides. As time goes on, the man gets to deal with the conflict of being denied, and the possible guilt of the women giving in to sex just to satisfy the man and quell the pestering. The relationship can become cold when both people would really enjoy greater intimacy. I believe this common conflict of desire and rejection and the eventual suppression of desire in men for sex, may have a deep influence in the development of many prostrate issues. Just a thought, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2003 Report Share Posted October 6, 2003 Phil, I concur with what you have said. I'd like to make a sepecial note about chemical castration induced by LHRH-a. Many people (a lot of women I have observed - misanthropy perhaps subject for another thread) will totally disregard the effect these drugs have on men because they cannot imagine why a loss of testosterone should be a problem. They also probably associate testosterone in men with annoying sexual pestering and probably think most men would do better to be more like women with less of that kind of 'aggression'. A lot of that sexual aggression is socio-cultural and nothing to do with testosterone levels. Moreover, men are 'wired' that way once puberty does its job. To deprive a man of his 'essence' after that crucial period is criminal. I have remarked in other posts on the savage and profound effects of Lupron and Zoladex and orchietomy on the male physically and menatlly. Anyone, Gabrielle included (who seems to have some notion of conventional PC treatments) do not go away from here thinking that 'androgen blockade' is a pushover and in any way different from a savage mediaval form of punishment called castration. Sammy. [] 06 October 2003 02:32 ; traditional_Chinese_Medicine Prostate cancer Hi All, & Hi Gabrielle Gabrielle wrote: > Just a few words about PC treatments. In USA, androgen blockade is > not called " chemical castration. " That's a very strong term. It may be unpalatable/politically incorrect to call it that; but, IMO, that is what it is! > Certainly, the impotence caused by androgen blockade will be > distressing to many men, but the Lupron shots are once a month I > believe. I don't think the effects are permanent. Men tend to > complain about hot flashes and mood fluctuations. If the PC is > contained within the capsule and the man is a candidate for > surgery, a " nerve-sparing " operation can be done if the tumor is > not too large. I believe the incision is different - > retro-peritoneal vs suprapubic, perhaps. Leaving the nerves will > reduce the risk of impotence. The outcome of prostate resection depends on the surgeon's skill and patience. A woman surgeon in Finland told me that most of her patients can function as men after her, but that the results of her [male surgeon] colleagues are poor; most of their patients are impotent afterwards. My hair stands on end at the thought of insensitive surgery at the hands of gung-ho butchers, especially if they have the shakes after hard night on the town before they gown-up! > I would think the blood movers combined with AP would be helpful > to treat strictures which often cause urinary/sexual performance > problems in these patients. Radiation causes less short term side > effects, I think, but when there are side-effects they are more > likely to persist. There may also be a greater chance of the rectum > being affected, causing bowel problems. BTW, I'm not sure it's > correct to say that BPH leads to prostate cancer, as it might be > inferred that the tissue transforms into a malignancy. Uterine > fibroids don't " turn into " sarcomas, and a swollen prostate doesn't > [necessarily] turn malignant. Who said that? IMO some BPHs may become malignant, esp those not treated effectively at an early stage. > I suppose it would be fair to say that the Qi-Xue Stasis present > in both conditions sets up a fertile terrain. Gabrielle And would it be fair to say that Phlegm & Damp Heat Descending may also be involved, esp in PC? Are herbs that Dissolve Phlegm, Clear Damp Heat, Reduce Swelling and Soften Hardness indicated? Are Herbs that Guard Jing, or Build Jing indicated? There are dozens of herbs in those Classes, but do we KNOW (can we prove with good data) that they are effective in PC? This thread aimed to elicit comment from experienced practitioners as to EFFECTIVE alternatives to conventional " therapies " involving surgical/chemical castration. With a few exceptions [sammy especially], little of definitive value has emerged - either from the TCM or CHA Lists - so far. Maybe I was hoping for too much? Maybe we just do not have sufficient data to be SURE whether or not AP & TCM are a really effective alternative? My Herb notes list MANY herbs that " are supposed " to be useful in prostatitis/BPH [moreso than than in PC]. The list includes: Pinyin Name \\\ Latin Name \\\ Common Name \\\ Main Herb Class ?? \\\ Agathosmae Betulinae \\\ Buchu \\\ ?? ?? \\\ Eupatorii Purpurei Rx \\\ Gravel Rx \\\ ?? ?? \\\ Hydrangeae Arborescentis Rz \\\ Hydrangea Rz \\\ ?? ?? \\\ Tabebuiae Impeteginosae/Taheebo Cx \\\ Pau D'Arco \\\ ?? Bichengqie; (See: Douchijiang) \\\ Litseae Cubebae Fr; Cubebae Litseae Fr; Piperis cubebae/Caudatae Fr \\\ Mountain Spicytree Fr; Cubeba/Cubeb Pepper \\\ Warm Interior ~ Expel Cold Cangzhu; Cangshu \\\ Atractylodis Lanceae/Rubrae/Sinensis/Japonicae Rz \\\ Red Atractylodes, Swordlike Atractylodes Rz, Chinese Atractylodes Rz, Atractylodes Cangzhu Rz, Thistle \\\ Expel Damp ~Aromatic Dahuang** \\\ Rhei Rx+Rz, Rhei Palmati/Tangutici/Officinalis Rx \\\ Rhubarb Rx+Rz \\\ Purge Dongguaren; Dongguazi \\\ Benincasae Hispidae S \\\ Winter Melon S, Chinese Waxgourd S, Benincasa S \\\ Aid Water/Drain Damp~Reduce Swelling Fuling**; Yunling; Baifuling; Fanglingkuai; (See: Fulingpi; Fushen) \\\ Poriae Cocos Sclerotium \\\ Chinaroot, Indian Bread, Tuckahoe/Poria/Hoelen Sclerotium \\\ Aid Water/Drain Damp~Reduce Swelling Gancao**; Tiaocao; (See: Zhigancao) \\\ Glycyrrhizae Rx, Glycyrrhizae Uralensis/Glabrae/Glanduliferae/inflatae Rx \\\ Licorice Rx \\\ Build Qi Guizhi**; Gui; (See: Rougui) \\\ Cinnamomi Cassiae Rml, Loureiru?? Rml \\\ Cinnamon Twig/Cassia Twig \\\ Release Surface~Expel Wind+Expel Cold; Warm Interior; Hulofu; (See: Nanheshi) \\\ Dauci Carotae Hb \\\ Wild Carrot Aerial Parts \\\ ?? Juchizonglan \\\ Serenoae Repentis/Serrulatae Fr \\\ Saw Palmetto Berries \\\ ?? Mangxiao; (See: Yuanming) \\\ Mirabilitum Depuratum, Magnesium Sulphuricum, Natrium Sulphuricum \\\ Mirabilite, Magnesium Sulphate, Sodium Sulphate, Glauber's salt \\\ Purge Manjingzi; (See: Huangjingzi; Mujingzi) \\\ Viticis Fr; Viticis Agnicasti/Trifoliatae/Ovatae/Simplicifoliae Fr \\\ Chastetree Berries; Shrub Chastetree Fr, Simpleleaf Shrub Chastetree Fr, Vitex Fr \\\ Release Surface~Expel Wind+Clear Heat Mudanpi; Guadanpi \\\ Paeoniae Moutan Cx-Rx, Paeoniae Suffruticosae Cx-Rx \\\ Tree Peony Cx-Rx, Moutan Cx, Peony Rx Peelings \\\ Clear Heat+Clear Xue Heat Muzei; Muzeicao; (See: Wenjingcao) \\\ Equiseti Hiemalis/Arvensis/Japonici/Ramosissimi Hb \\\ Horsetail, Common Scouring Rush Hb, Horsetail Sterile Hb, Shave Grass Hb \\\ Release Surface~Expel Wind+Clear Heat Oumaogen \\\ Agropyronis Repens Hb \\\ Couch Grass \\\ ?? Shanyao**; Shanyaogan; Shuyu; Huaishanyao \\\ Dioscoreae Oppositae/Quinquelobae/Batatas Rx/Rz/Tuber \\\ Common Yam Rz/Winged Yam Rz, Chinese Wild Yam, Dioscorea Rx \\\ Build Qi Shanzhuyu; Shanyurou; Shanzhurou; Zaopi \\\ Corni Officinalis Fr/Arillus \\\ Common Macrocarpium Fr, Dogwood Fr, Cornus, Asiatic Cornelian Cherry Fr \\\ Astringe/Guard Jing+Antidiuretic+Antileucorrhoea; Tonic Shengdihuang**; Shengdi**); Dihuang \\\ Rehmanniae Glutinosae Rx Exsiccata/Recens; Rehmanniae Glutinosae Rx Recens, ?Epimedii Macranthi/Sagittati Rx Recens Exsiccatus \\\ Dried/Raw/Fresh Rehmannia Rx \\\ Clear Heat+Clear Xue Heat Taoren \\\ Pruni Persicae/Davidianae S; ??Pernene S \\\ Peach S Kernel; Persica \\\ Move Xue Stasis~Rectify Menstruation Xianrenzhang; Xiantao \\\ Cactus opuntiae Caulis/Rz/Fr; Opuntiae fici- indicae,/vulgaris/decumanae/compressae/leucotrichae/streptacanth ae/strictae Hb \\\ Opuntia cactus; Cholla Stem/Rz; Dragon Tongue, Old Duck Tongue, Spirit Immortal Palm; Panini; Papipi; Prickly Pear, Barbary Pear, Indian Pear; Aathikan; Cockineal; Nopal (whole plant), Tuna (Fr) \\\ ?? Yiyiren; Yimiren; Yiren; Yimi; Miren; (See: Chaoyiyiren) \\\ Coicis Lacrymaejobi S \\\ Coix S, Job’s Tears S; Chinese pearl barley \\\ Aid Water/Drain Damp~Reduce Swelling Yumixu; Yumirui \\\ Zeae Maydis Stylus+Stigma \\\ Cornsilk; Corn Stigma \\\ Aid Water/Drain Damp~Reduce Swelling Zexie** \\\ Alismatis Orientalis/aquaticae/Plantaginis Rz \\\ Alisma Tuber, Oriental Waterplantain Rz \\\ Aid Water/Drain Damp~Reduce Swelling >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, there are dozens of Hbs listed as having anticancer effects [but without the word prostate in their data], and that are said to support chemotherapy/radiotherapy [enhance the kill of cancer cells but minimise the adverse effects on healthy cells, esp bone marrow, LV, KI and LU]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In contrast, my notes list the following Hbs as contraindicated in prostatitis/BPH/PC: Pinyin Name \\\ Latin Name \\\ Common Name \\\ Main Herb Class ?? \\\ Pausinystalia Yohimbe \\\ Yohimbe \\\ ?? ?? \\\ Turnerae Diffusae Fm \\\ Damiana Fm \\\ ?? Bajitian**; Bajirou; Baji \\\ Morindae Rx, Morindae Officinalis Rx, Bacopae/Herpestis Monnierae Rx \\\ Morinda Rx, Bacopa Rx, Herpestis Rx, Medicinal Indian Mulberry Rx \\\ Build Yang Dianqiecao \\\ Atropae Belladonnae Cacumen+Fl; Belladonnae Hb \\\ Belladonna Hb/Fl+Tops \\\ ?? Haima; (See: Hailong) \\\ Hippocampus Kelloggi \\\ Sea Horse \\\ Build Yang Mahuang [banned??] \\\ Ephedrae Sinensis/Equisetina/Intermedia Hb \\\ Ephedra Hb, Chinese Ephedra \\\ Release Surface~Expel Wind+Expel Cold Shechuangzi \\\ Cnidii/Selini Monnierii Fr/S, ??Ligustri Fr \\\ Common Cnidium Fr/S, Cnidium Fr/S, Selinum Fr/S \\\ Clear Toxin, Insecticide, Astringe Damp+Ease Itch Tufuling; (See: Baqian) \\\ Smilacis Officinalis/Glabrae/Sinensis Rz/Rx \\\ Glabrous Greenbriar Rz, Sarsaparilla Chinaroot Rz, Smooth Greenbrier Rx; Smilax \\\ Clear Heat Toxin Yinyanghuo; Xianglingpi \\\ Epimedii Grandiflori/Brevicorni/Sagittati/Pubescentis Hb, Epimedii Macranthi/Wushanense/Koreani Hb \\\ Epimedium Hb \\\ Build Yang Ziheche [banned]; (See: Qidai; Kanqi) \\\ Hominis Placenta \\\ Human Placenta \\\ Build Yang >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If Sammy is right, should we be considering herbs that increase testosterone? This seems to fly in the face of current " wisdom " , but if he is right, it would turn the Tx of PC on its head. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2003 Report Share Posted October 7, 2003 Actually, Sammy, I am following this thread with great interest. Yes we do joke about testosterone poisoning. Maybe the key is wnl, within normal limits. And liver clearance of hormones being a key issue for men, as well as women, i should think. Anyway, Sweetie, you really should edit your posts more and lop off all that extraneous length from precedent postings... dontcha think? My puny hard drive is getting such a workout...not to mention the poor internet, bursting with such tumescently redundant emails. curious in new york, Ann Many people (a lot of women I have observed - misanthropy perhaps subject for another thread) will totally disregard the effect these drugs have on men because they cannot imagine why a loss of testosterone should be a problem. They also probably associate testosterone in men with annoying sexual pestering and probably think most men would do better to be more like women with less of that kind of 'aggression'. A lot of that sexual aggression is socio-cultural and nothing to do with testosterone levels. Moreover, men are 'wired' that way once puberty does its job. To deprive a man of his 'essence' after that crucial period is criminal. I have remarked in other posts on the savage and profound effects of Lupron and Zoladex and orchietomy on the male physically and menatlly. Anyone, Gabrielle included (who seems to have some notion of conventional PC treatments) do not go away from here thinking that 'androgen blockade' is a pushover and in any way different from a savage mediaval form of punishment called castration. Sammy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2003 Report Share Posted October 7, 2003 Ann, I'd normally clip the thread but the dominant WM interpretation of PC is a complex subject : because it is so wrong, and in so much need of correction, everything needs to be made quite explicit. Therefore, readers may find it useful to access a single post rather than have to weave their way back through several previous posts in a vain attempt to knit things together. Clipping the thread is important when there is not much focus and the subject drifts. Even more important is the judicious use of Subject line changes to reflect changes in a thread. I often wonder if it is realised the Subject line may be changed to match what is said in the message. There is no sense in clinging on to a redundant Subject line any more than there is tagging on an irrelevant thread. As for bandwidth being gobbled up, well really there is no comparison between a few kilobytes in a text message and the massive files being used elsewhere on the Internet. A couple of comments below. Sammy. <snip> Yes we do joke about testosterone poisoning. ** I've just done a Google search and it seems to be quite the in-phrase although I have never come across it before. You New Yorkers are obviously way ahead of us Brits on some things. > Maybe the key is wnl, within normal limits. ** The limits are something that change depending on the company one keeps. That is the whole point of the PC thread - WM treatment is essentially a misguided take on the purpose of androgen in the male, and the useless application of an outdated treatment protocol. My challenge to TCM is to come up with something better than castration in the treatment of symptomatic PC characteristic of the western manifestation of this disease: high PSA, low testosterone, high estrogen, painful prostate and BPH, Ki deficiency syndrome including dysuria and lower back pain, blood in semen, erectile dysfunction. Metastatic disease in the pelvis, lymph nodes and lumbar vertebrae. > And liver clearance of hormones being a key issue for men, as well as women, i should think. ** Agreed, and for both sexes it is important the liver is clearing estrogen because of its strong link with carcinogenesis and its interference with T levels. So, snakes aside, it is *estrogen poisoning* you need to watch out for not testosterone poisoning. <snip> >curious in new york, ** About what ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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