Guest guest Report post Posted August 7, 2009 Hello, Does anyone know why certain Hindu images of Gods and Goddess are so violent looking, and in some cases violent sounding and or violent acting per recorded doctrines? My take is that as soon as, or instantly so to speak that any one (whether they be human, deva, or of the Gods and Goddess's) engages in the consciousness of violence then one instantly falls into the lower astral realms or worlds because the Divine Dharma automatically and absolutely does not allow violence to exist in the higher heavenly worlds!! (or the worlds of the heavenly devas, the Gods and Goddess's, and also of the the human Masters and Saints that have attained the same) Thus how could the Gods or Goddess's engage in forms of violence and still remain in the Divine, non-violent consciousness? Further, with evil being automatically and completely blocked from access to certain heavenly worlds, ...how could ANY Divine Being use violence against violence or evil against evil while they are acting in the lesser worlds (where btw evil is not being completely or automatically blocked) and still maintain the Divine consciousness? Om Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 7, 2009 Hi Bob, Namaste. I'm glad that you opened it up to " anyone, " because I have no particular connection with Devi Mandir, except years of admiration and respect for Shree Maa and Swamiji. Thus, I speak only for myself, on the basis of my own understanding. Much of the " violence " associated with Durga and Kali, for example, is directed at enemies of our spiritual growth (kama, krodha, lubha, etc.). Figures such as Mahisha, Shumbha, Nishumbha, et al. are symbolic of these personal demons that we must, with the help of Devi, overcome. Devi is praised as destroyer of these qualities (including our own violence) that stand in the way of our spiritual advancement. It is these " enemies " that we ask Devi to destroy. To some, an image such as that of Kali is frightening. I do not find it so. To me She is the dark womb of the universe, from which all that is manifest has come, and to which all must return. Jai Maa! Devidas T. > bob_walk2 <bob_walk2 > > Friday, August 7, 2009 8:33:40 AM > [www.ShreeMaa.org] a blunt question > > > Hello, > > Does anyone know why certain Hindu images of Gods and Goddess are so violent > looking, and in some cases violent sounding and or violent acting per recorded > doctrines? > > My take is that as soon as, or instantly so to speak that any one (whether they > be human, deva, or of the Gods and Goddess's) engages in the consciousness of > violence then one instantly falls into the lower astral realms or worlds because > the Divine Dharma automatically and absolutely does not allow violence to exist > in the higher heavenly worlds!! (or the worlds of the heavenly devas, the Gods > and Goddess's, and also of the the human Masters and Saints that have attained > the same) Thus how could the Gods or Goddess's engage in forms of violence and > still remain in the Divine, non-violent consciousness? > > Further, with evil being automatically and completely blocked from access to > certain heavenly worlds, ...how could ANY Divine Being use violence against > violence or evil against evil while they are acting in the lesser worlds (where > btw evil is not being completely or automatically blocked) and still maintain > the Divine consciousness? > > Om > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 7, 2009 what i have come to know is that the violent image is caused by our illusion and attachment. if ma comes to take your ego ( represented by cutting of the head.. mind etc..) and you are willing then she will come as a gentle angel. how i see this in my life is when someone gives me feed back, to the degree of how resistent i am is how gruesome the goddess will have to become. if i hold onto my ego tight then i will always justafy why my ego is right. i also feel that you are in a very dualistic mode of seeing. and this is again what the darker images push us to see outside of. GOD IS ALL. not just good. god is not good, and the devil is bad. this is a very broken way of dividing up the world based on our ego wanting to make the things we like heaven, and the things we dont like hell. but god is all of it. no distinction. this is just my take. OM Namah Shivaya bob_walk2 <bob_walk2 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:33 am [www.ShreeMaa.org] a blunt question Hello, Does anyone know why certain Hindu images of Gods and Goddess are so violent looking, and in some cases violent sounding and or violent acting per recorded doctrines? My take is that as soon as, or instantly so to speak that any one (whether they be human, deva, or of the Gods and Goddess's) engages in the consciousness of violence then one instantly falls into the lower astral realms or worlds because the Divine Dharma automatically and absolutely does not allow violence to exist in the higher heavenly worlds!! (or the worlds of the heavenly devas, the Gods and Goddess's, and also of the the human Masters and Saints that have attained the same) Thus how could the Gods or Goddess's engage in forms of violence and still remain in the Divine, non-violent consciousness? Further, with evil being automatically and completely blocked from access to certain heavenly worlds, ...how could ANY Divine Being use violence against violence or evil against evil while they are acting in the lesser worlds (where btw evil is not being completely or automatically blocked) and still maintain the Divine consciousness? Om Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 7, 2009 Namaste,Jai MaaI can answer that for you....it is pure symbolism. Weapons in general signify the ability and desire of the gods to cut away and protect us from ignorance. It is rather a comforting view if looked at it in that light. The tongues hanging from open mouths signify knowledge. I could go on for days about the symbolism. Take for example the image of Kaali Maa, black skinned and standing on the lifeless body of Lord Shiv. It's quite rich in what it means. She had fought demons...and drank their blood knowing that if one drop of it touched the ground more demons would spring forth from each drop. As a result she went crazy from the evil influences until Lord Shiv intervened. She caused his death which immediately put her into the right frame of mind again. Lord Shiv was revived and saved from death. Perhaps the most amazing ending of the story is that each demon that was killed was granted salvation and also saved in the end. So that terrible image is actually a study in compassion by two gods and it extended to their enemies. For as terrible as she appears...Kaali is actually loving, protective, and compassionate and that is what is being depicted. Yes the stories are violent in some cases, however, if you keep in mind the demons that were fought represent ignorance and take into account that all the scripture stories are deeply steeped in meaning it takes on a new light. Also keep in mind that these scriptures, and all religious works, are man created. They were written in different times for different people with different ways of life. Today's Hindu is quite versed in evolution, DNA, and all the things that are relevant now. Take what you will from the Veds and Puranas but remember that. These are stories as lessons for people who could not read. In their time, this was a good teaching tool. Don't over think it. Om Shakti OmShereeOn Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 11:33 AM, bob_walk2 <bob_walk2 wrote: Hello, Does anyone know why certain Hindu images of Gods and Goddess are so violent looking, and in some cases violent sounding and or violent acting per recorded doctrines? My take is that as soon as, or instantly so to speak that any one (whether they be human, deva, or of the Gods and Goddess's) engages in the consciousness of violence then one instantly falls into the lower astral realms or worlds because the Divine Dharma automatically and absolutely does not allow violence to exist in the higher heavenly worlds!! (or the worlds of the heavenly devas, the Gods and Goddess's, and also of the the human Masters and Saints that have attained the same) Thus how could the Gods or Goddess's engage in forms of violence and still remain in the Divine, non-violent consciousness? Further, with evil being automatically and completely blocked from access to certain heavenly worlds, ...how could ANY Divine Being use violence against violence or evil against evil while they are acting in the lesser worlds (where btw evil is not being completely or automatically blocked) and still maintain the Divine consciousness? Om -- White Lotus Kundalini ProductionsWhiteLotusKundaliniOur website:http://adishaktiwhitelotuskundalini.ning.com/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 7, 2009 To me, the main reason is so we will understand that the Deity in question has more than enough power and ability to be able to do away with the asuras that threaten our peace. If Mother is not strong and fearful how can She do away with the ugly, threatening thoughts that assail us? There is also the fact that the face of God/Goddess is always awesome and beyond our (individual jiva's) understanding and that awe can be interpreted as fear. When Arjuna beheld the Universal Form of Krishna the hair stood up on his body and he was totally overcome. He was a strong warrior and he wouldn't have been fearful for a trifling reason. To represent that a smiling, peaceful form will not do. For the true devotee, though, it is understood that all this power is not against him/her and the Deity is the protector always.--- On Fri, 8/7/09, bob_walk2 <bob_walk2 wrote: bob_walk2 <bob_walk2[www.ShreeMaa.org] a blunt question Date: Friday, August 7, 2009, 10:33 AM Hello, Does anyone know why certain Hindu images of Gods and Goddess are so violent looking, and in some cases violent sounding and or violent acting per recorded doctrines?My take is that as soon as, or instantly so to speak that any one (whether they be human, deva, or of the Gods and Goddess's) engages in the consciousness of violence then one instantly falls into the lower astral realms or worlds because the Divine Dharma automatically and absolutely does not allow violence to exist in the higher heavenly worlds!! (or the worlds of the heavenly devas, the Gods and Goddess's, and also of the the human Masters and Saints that have attained the same) Thus how could the Gods or Goddess's engage in forms of violence and still remain in the Divine, non-violent consciousness?Further, with evil being automatically and completely blocked from access to certain heavenly worlds, ...how could ANY Divine Being use violence against violence or evil against evil while they are acting in the lesser worlds (where btw evil is not being completely or automatically blocked) and still maintain the Divine consciousness?Om Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 8, 2009 Hello to everyone, thank you for taking the time to give your many replies back to this string! I think we have an incredible amount of material of interest here that could be further discussed. For instance from bmarely God is related to as, " GOD IS ALL " ; or if I understood him correctly both good and evil. Frankly I'm not interested in a God or Goddess who is both good and evil, although I'm interested in a God or Goddess who is beyond both good and evil. I have somewhat of a hard time with violent images representing God or Goddess as being that which is beyond both good and evil. Or of the ideas of violence overcoming violence in defense of natural goodness. I believe that many little kids get more than enough violence from various images and also in the facts of their young lives from many various sources, are they also to get it from various religions? (and it seems that most major religions have God or Goddess that are involved in various forms of violence) As for Hindu forms, there are many extremely powerful and invincible images (and in principles) that don't have the drastic limb and head chopping depictions (even if such chopping is only meant to be symbolic, ...btw the vast armies that have died on various battle-fields throughout history are not symbolic) Thus I firmly feel and believe that there is not a single deva, Mahadeva, spiritual teacher, saints or masters (female or male) that can use any form of violence against any other form of violence and remain in spiritual attainment, for in doing so they would be breaking the first and most important foundational and exacting universal law of yama. Sanatana Dharma is not a man made religion, thus in consideration of that very major factor it is unlike religions inspired by the founder/Saints of other religions. Th vast Mystery (or the idea of darkness as being the unknown mystery) of the universe does not also hold the connotation of fearsome violence for me. ParaShakti is an Ocean of Love ...without inspiring fear in even the the weakest, most fearfully ridden and tragic soul. Grace comes through Divine Shakti. Here is an image if you will, a trillion volts and amps of electricity does not need to willfully protect itself from anything - such is done so automatically by its inherent nature. Stories, yes some are just stories. Stories, no some are actual souls and people involved in actual events and facts. Om , " bob_walk2 " <bob_walk2 wrote: > > > Hello, > > Does anyone know why certain Hindu images of Gods and Goddess are so violent looking, and in some cases violent sounding and or violent acting per recorded doctrines? > > My take is that as soon as, or instantly so to speak that any one (whether they be human, deva, or of the Gods and Goddess's) engages in the consciousness of violence then one instantly falls into the lower astral realms or worlds because the Divine Dharma automatically and absolutely does not allow violence to exist in the higher heavenly worlds!! (or the worlds of the heavenly devas, the Gods and Goddess's, and also of the the human Masters and Saints that have attained the same) Thus how could the Gods or Goddess's engage in forms of violence and still remain in the Divine, non-violent consciousness? > > Further, with evil being automatically and completely blocked from access to certain heavenly worlds, ...how could ANY Divine Being use violence against violence or evil against evil while they are acting in the lesser worlds (where btw evil is not being completely or automatically blocked) and still maintain the Divine consciousness? > > Om > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 8, 2009 I love that example! I would actually take it one step farther. God is eternal and is the only thing that has no duality. That is described extremely well in the Gita by Lord Krsna or in the teachings that Rama receives and teaches. Most of the stories are to help people understand the nature of the universe/Maya. Others are history such as the Mahabharata or Ramayana or much of the Vedas. Sheree wrote: > > > Namaste, > > Jai Maa > > I can answer that for you....it is pure symbolism. Weapons in general > signify the ability and desire of the gods to cut away and protect us > from ignorance. It is rather a comforting view if looked at it in that > light. The tongues hanging from open mouths signify knowledge. I could > go on for days about the symbolism. > > Take for example the image of Kaali Maa, black skinned and standing on > the lifeless body of Lord Shiv. It's quite rich in what it means. She > had fought demons...and drank their blood knowing that if one drop of > it touched the ground more demons would spring forth from each drop. > As a result she went crazy from the evil influences until Lord Shiv > intervened. She caused his death which immediately put her into the > right frame of mind again. Lord Shiv was revived and saved from death. > > Perhaps the most amazing ending of the story is that each demon that > was killed was granted salvation and also saved in the end. So that > terrible image is actually a study in compassion by two gods and it > extended to their enemies. For as terrible as she appears...Kaali is > actually loving, protective, and compassionate and that is what is > being depicted. > > Yes the stories are violent in some cases, however, if you keep in > mind the demons that were fought represent ignorance and take into > account that all the scripture stories are deeply steeped in meaning > it takes on a new light. > > Also keep in mind that these scriptures, and all religious works, are > man created. They were written in different times for different people > with different ways of life. Today's Hindu is quite versed in > evolution, DNA, and all the things that are relevant now. Take what > you will from the Veds and Puranas but remember that. These are > stories as lessons for people who could not read. In their time, this > was a good teaching tool. Don't over think it. > > Om Shakti Om > > Sheree > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 11:33 AM, bob_walk2 <bob_walk2 > <bob_walk2> wrote: > > > > > Hello, > > Does anyone know why certain Hindu images of Gods and Goddess are > so violent looking, and in some cases violent sounding and or > violent acting per recorded doctrines? > > My take is that as soon as, or instantly so to speak that any one > (whether they be human, deva, or of the Gods and Goddess's) > engages in the consciousness of violence then one instantly falls > into the lower astral realms or worlds because the Divine Dharma > automatically and absolutely does not allow violence to exist in > the higher heavenly worlds!! (or the worlds of the heavenly devas, > the Gods and Goddess's, and also of the the human Masters and > Saints that have attained the same) Thus how could the Gods or > Goddess's engage in forms of violence and still remain in the > Divine, non-violent consciousness? > > Further, with evil being automatically and completely blocked from > access to certain heavenly worlds, ...how could ANY Divine Being > use violence against violence or evil against evil while they are > acting in the lesser worlds (where btw evil is not being > completely or automatically blocked) and still maintain the Divine > consciousness? > > Om > > > > > -- > White Lotus Kundalini Productions > > WhiteLotusKundalini <WhiteLotusKundalini > > Our website: > http://adishaktiwhitelotuskundalini.ning.com/ > <http://adishaktiwhitelotuskundalini.ning.com/> > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 8, 2009 Just to be clear... Hinduism is not the only faith with a lot of bad things happening.... If you read the old testament, it is filled with sex and murder. If you read the new testament, again, a lot of really nasty things happening there also ending with Jesus being murdered on the cross. Even God in the old testament is a vengeful God... Look at what he does to Job to test him or to Sodom and Gomorrah. It is true that over the years, the sex and violence in the Bible have been glossed over but they are there. Also, which is worse, a symbol of Jesus on the cross, suggesting helplessness where even God will not protect his own child from being tortured by an evil nation or Kali slaying an evil army to protect herself and her people and suggesting that it is our duty to do the same. I find comfort in a God that protects their people. For my kids, I tell them that God protects us and it is our duty to protect others. I have a hard time explaining why I should allow myself or my family suffer because God will not protect us. The extreme of non-violence/self sacrifice is of course Kwan Yin. Again, it is a nice theory but not very practical. After all, everytime you eat something, you are committing violence, killing an animal or killing a plant since plants have life and souls. If you don't eat, you are also committing violence against yourself. There is no way to escape it unless you overcome Maya. Also... God is beyond Maya. That was defined in Hinduism before Krsna's era which is placed at around 3000 BCE. Anything that is dual is due to Maya aka... Good and Evil... Life and Death... Peace and Violence. Until we move beyond Maya, we always do violence since every action has both parts of the duality in it. bob_walk2 wrote: > > > > Hello to everyone, thank you for taking the time to give your many > replies back to this string! > > I think we have an incredible amount of material of interest here that > could be further discussed. > > For instance from bmarely God is related to as, " GOD IS ALL " ; > or if I understood him correctly both good and evil. Frankly I'm not > interested in a God or Goddess who is both good and evil, although I'm > interested in a God or Goddess who is beyond both good and evil. > > I have somewhat of a hard time with violent images representing God or > Goddess as being that which is beyond both good and evil. Or of the > ideas of violence overcoming violence in defense of natural goodness. > > I believe that many little kids get more than enough violence from > various images and also in the facts of their young lives from many > various sources, are they also to get it from various religions? (and > it seems that most major religions have God or Goddess that are > involved in various forms of violence) > > As for Hindu forms, there are many extremely powerful and invincible > images (and in principles) that don't have the drastic limb and head > chopping depictions (even if such chopping is only meant to be > symbolic, ...btw the vast armies that have died on various > battle-fields throughout history are not symbolic) Thus I firmly feel > and believe that there is not a single deva, Mahadeva, spiritual > teacher, saints or masters (female or male) that can use any form of > violence against any other form of violence and remain in spiritual > attainment, for in doing so they would be breaking the first and most > important foundational and exacting universal law of yama. > > Sanatana Dharma is not a man made religion, thus in consideration of > that very major factor it is unlike religions inspired by the > founder/Saints of other religions. > > Th vast Mystery (or the idea of darkness as being the unknown mystery) > of the universe does not also hold the connotation of fearsome > violence for me. > > ParaShakti is an Ocean of Love ...without inspiring fear in even the > the weakest, most fearfully ridden and tragic soul. Grace comes > through Divine Shakti. > > Here is an image if you will, a trillion volts and amps of electricity > does not need to willfully protect itself from anything - such is done > so automatically by its inherent nature. > > Stories, yes some are just stories. Stories, no some are actual souls > and people involved in actual events and facts. > > Om > > > <%40>, " bob_walk2 " <bob_walk2 wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > Does anyone know why certain Hindu images of Gods and Goddess are so > violent looking, and in some cases violent sounding and or violent > acting per recorded doctrines? > > > > My take is that as soon as, or instantly so to speak that any one > (whether they be human, deva, or of the Gods and Goddess's) engages in > the consciousness of violence then one instantly falls into the lower > astral realms or worlds because the Divine Dharma automatically and > absolutely does not allow violence to exist in the higher heavenly > worlds!! (or the worlds of the heavenly devas, the Gods and Goddess's, > and also of the the human Masters and Saints that have attained the > same) Thus how could the Gods or Goddess's engage in forms of violence > and still remain in the Divine, non-violent consciousness? > > > > Further, with evil being automatically and completely blocked from > access to certain heavenly worlds, ...how could ANY Divine Being use > violence against violence or evil against evil while they are acting > in the lesser worlds (where btw evil is not being completely or > automatically blocked) and still maintain the Divine consciousness? > > > > Om > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 8, 2009 Kali is very hard to explain and I, too was aghast at Her appearance at one time. Now, She is My Mother and I do not find Her ugly or terrifying. She is dark and powerful and beautiful. Who can explain the devotion of one to another who cannot see the image with love? Mother is Mother, whether dark or fair, ugly or beautiful. She has taken away my Darkness time and again. Only a glimpse of Her is seen in human mothers, who will willingly defend their children to the death, wreaking terrible vengence. In Kali I see that Mother Who will protect me in that way. I see myself. Her love was so strong that She did not stop once all the enemies were gone until Shiva lay down in Her path and She turned Her eyes on Him and recognized Her beloved, Her other half, Her child. I know very little of philosophy, I am not learned, but I recognize this as a true story in a deep and timeless way. Have you seen a human woman defend her self with all her fury and emotion let loose? Have you seen a bear or a lion defend it's territory or offspring? Then you have seen a fraction of Kali's nature. Kali's meaning is also, not to take things only at the appearance level. It is easy to love the beautiful, the placid, the calm. But, within even the awful appearance is the loving heart. Her worship teaches not to take things on face value. God's blessings are sometimes terrible in our notion of what is bad, but turn out to be blessings nonetheless. God is beyond our notions of what is good or evil. All turns out to be good, because it all brings us to Her. We all fear the destruction of the Ego, but what appears to us a tragic loss at one time, when we have screwed up our lives and relied on ourselves with very bad results, then we are willing to let it go. And Kali takes that Ego, chops off it's head and carries it as a reminder that is very hard to ignore to continue to let go of the Ego. This individual self is in Her hands, now and always. Jai Kali Ma! Victory to You, O Mother of the Universe! Jai Shree Maa, Jai Swamiji! Kumari--- On Fri, 8/7/09, bob_walk2 <bob_walk2 wrote: bob_walk2 <bob_walk2[www.ShreeMaa.org] Re: a blunt question Date: Friday, August 7, 2009, 7:04 PM Hello to everyone, thank you for taking the time to give your many replies back to this string!I think we have an incredible amount of material of interest here that could be further discussed.For instance from bmarely God is related to as, "GOD IS ALL";or if I understood him correctly both good and evil. Frankly I'm not interested in a God or Goddess who is both good and evil, although I'm interested in a God or Goddess who is beyond both good and evil. I have somewhat of a hard time with violent images representing God or Goddess as being that which is beyond both good and evil. Or of the ideas of violence overcoming violence in defense of natural goodness.I believe that many little kids get more than enough violence from various images and also in the facts of their young lives from many various sources, are they also to get it from various religions? (and it seems that most major religions have God or Goddess that are involved in various forms of violence)As for Hindu forms, there are many extremely powerful and invincible images (and in principles) that don't have the drastic limb and head chopping depictions (even if such chopping is only meant to be symbolic, ...btw the vast armies that have died on various battle-fields throughout history are not symbolic) Thus I firmly feel and believe that there is not a single deva, Mahadeva, spiritual teacher, saints or masters (female or male) that can use any form of violence against any other form of violence and remain in spiritual attainment, for in doing so they would be breaking the first and most important foundational and exacting universal law of yama. Sanatana Dharma is not a man made religion, thus in consideration of that very major factor it is unlike religions inspired by the founder/Saints of other religions.Th vast Mystery (or the idea of darkness as being the unknown mystery) of the universe does not also hold the connotation of fearsome violence for me.ParaShakti is an Ocean of Love ...without inspiring fear in even the the weakest, most fearfully ridden and tragic soul. Grace comes through Divine Shakti.Here is an image if you will, a trillion volts and amps of electricity does not need to willfully protect itself from anything - such is done so automatically by its inherent nature. Stories, yes some are just stories. Stories, no some are actual souls and people involved in actual events and facts. Om, "bob_walk2" <bob_walk2@. ..> wrote:>> > Hello, > > Does anyone know why certain Hindu images of Gods and Goddess are so violent looking, and in some cases violent sounding and or violent acting per recorded doctrines?> > My take is that as soon as, or instantly so to speak that any one (whether they be human, deva, or of the Gods and Goddess's) engages in the consciousness of violence then one instantly falls into the lower astral realms or worlds because the Divine Dharma automatically and absolutely does not allow violence to exist in the higher heavenly worlds!! (or the worlds of the heavenly devas, the Gods and Goddess's, and also of the the human Masters and Saints that have attained the same) Thus how could the Gods or Goddess's engage in forms of violence and still remain in the Divine, non-violent consciousness?> > Further, with evil being automatically and completely blocked from access to certain heavenly worlds, ...how could ANY Divine Being use violence against violence or evil against evil while they are acting in the lesser worlds (where btw evil is not being completely or automatically blocked) and still maintain the Divine consciousness?> > Om> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 8, 2009 Kumari wrote: > > >Kali is very hard to explain and I, too was aghast at Her appearance at one time. Now, She is My Mother and I do not find Her ugly or terrifying. She is dark and powerful and beautiful. Who can explain the devotion of one to another who cannot see the image with love? Mother is Mother, whether dark or fair, ugly or beautiful. She has taken away my Darkness time and again. > [snip] I'm with you, Kumari, and couldn't have said it better. She raises me up. --Devidas T. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 8, 2009 Hello Joan, Well said in the description of your faith in Goddess Kali! For myself the Ocean of ParaSakti without the human and or celestial aspects and forms is what I would relate to as the ultimate of Motherhood; I may have to move on soon since I don't want to intrude on your (and other peoples) form of religion with more bluntness. Good day, Bob , Joan Fisher <mjfisher2005 wrote: > > Kali is very hard to explain and I, too was aghast at Her appearance at one time. Now, She is My Mother and I do not find Her ugly or terrifying. She is dark and powerful and beautiful. Who can explain the devotion of one to another who cannot see the image with love? Mother is Mother, whether dark or fair, ugly or beautiful. She has taken away my Darkness time and again. > > Only a glimpse of Her is seen in human mothers, who will willingly defend their children to the death, wreaking terrible vengence. In Kali I see that Mother Who will protect me in that way. I see myself. Her love was so strong that She did not stop once all the enemies were gone until Shiva lay down in Her path and She turned Her eyes on Him and recognized Her beloved, Her other half, Her child. I know very little of philosophy, I am not learned, but I recognize this as a true story in a deep and timeless way. Have you seen a human woman defend her self with all her fury and emotion let loose? Have you seen a bear or a lion defend it's territory or offspring? Then you have seen a fraction of Kali's nature. > > Kali's meaning is also, not to take things only at the appearance level. It is easy to love the beautiful, the placid, the calm. But, within even the awful appearance is the loving heart. Her worship teaches not to take things on face value. God's blessings are sometimes terrible in our notion of what is bad, but turn out to be blessings nonetheless. God is beyond our notions of what is good or evil. All turns out to be good, because it all brings us to Her. > > We all fear the destruction of the Ego, but what appears to us a tragic loss at one time, when we have screwed up our lives and relied on ourselves with very bad results, then we are willing to let it go. And Kali takes that Ego, chops off it's head and carries it as a reminder that is very hard to ignore to continue to let go of the Ego. This individual self is in Her hands, now and always. Jai Kali Ma! Victory to You, O Mother of the Universe! > > Jai Shree Maa, Jai Swamiji! > > Kumari > > --- On Fri, 8/7/09, bob_walk2 <bob_walk2 wrote: > > > bob_walk2 <bob_walk2 > [www.ShreeMaa.org] Re: a blunt question > > Friday, August 7, 2009, 7:04 PM > > > > > > > > Hello to everyone, thank you for taking the time to give your many replies back to this string! > > I think we have an incredible amount of material of interest here that could be further discussed. > > For instance from bmarely God is related to as, " GOD IS ALL " ; > or if I understood him correctly both good and evil. Frankly I'm not interested in a God or Goddess who is both good and evil, although I'm interested in a God or Goddess who is beyond both good and evil. > > I have somewhat of a hard time with violent images representing God or Goddess as being that which is beyond both good and evil. Or of the ideas of violence overcoming violence in defense of natural goodness. > > I believe that many little kids get more than enough violence from various images and also in the facts of their young lives from many various sources, are they also to get it from various religions? (and it seems that most major religions have God or Goddess that are involved in various forms of violence) > > As for Hindu forms, there are many extremely powerful and invincible images (and in principles) that don't have the drastic limb and head chopping depictions (even if such chopping is only meant to be symbolic, ...btw the vast armies that have died on various battle-fields throughout history are not symbolic) Thus I firmly feel and believe that there is not a single deva, Mahadeva, spiritual teacher, saints or masters (female or male) that can use any form of violence against any other form of violence and remain in spiritual attainment, for in doing so they would be breaking the first and most important foundational and exacting universal law of yama. > > Sanatana Dharma is not a man made religion, thus in consideration of that very major factor it is unlike religions inspired by the founder/Saints of other religions. > > Th vast Mystery (or the idea of darkness as being the unknown mystery) of the universe does not also hold the connotation of fearsome violence for me. > > ParaShakti is an Ocean of Love ...without inspiring fear in even the the weakest, most fearfully ridden and tragic soul. Grace comes through Divine Shakti. > > Here is an image if you will, a trillion volts and amps of electricity does not need to willfully protect itself from anything - such is done so automatically by its inherent nature. > > Stories, yes some are just stories. Stories, no some are actual souls and people involved in actual events and facts. > > Om > > , " bob_walk2 " <bob_walk2@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > Does anyone know why certain Hindu images of Gods and Goddess are so violent looking, and in some cases violent sounding and or violent acting per recorded doctrines? > > > > My take is that as soon as, or instantly so to speak that any one (whether they be human, deva, or of the Gods and Goddess's) engages in the consciousness of violence then one instantly falls into the lower astral realms or worlds because the Divine Dharma automatically and absolutely does not allow violence to exist in the higher heavenly worlds!! (or the worlds of the heavenly devas, the Gods and Goddess's, and also of the the human Masters and Saints that have attained the same) Thus how could the Gods or Goddess's engage in forms of violence and still remain in the Divine, non-violent consciousness? > > > > Further, with evil being automatically and completely blocked from access to certain heavenly worlds, ...how could ANY Divine Being use violence against violence or evil against evil while they are acting in the lesser worlds (where btw evil is not being completely or automatically blocked) and still maintain the Divine consciousness? > > > > Om > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2009 You are Jnani, I am Bhakti. There is no problem in that. It is a difference in temperment, that is all. There is room in this universe for many points of view. I acknowledge the formless as well as God with form. Peace to you and all. I apologize if I have made my statements too strongly. Jai Shree Maa, Jai Swamiji! Kumari--- On Sat, 8/8/09, bob_walk2 <bob_walk2 wrote: bob_walk2 <bob_walk2[www.ShreeMaa.org] Re: a blunt question Date: Saturday, August 8, 2009, 3:00 PM Hello Joan, Well said in the description of your faith in Goddess Kali!For myself the Ocean of ParaSakti without the human and or celestial aspects and forms is what I would relate to as the ultimate of Motherhood; I may have to move on soon since I don't want to intrude on your (and other peoples) form of religion with more bluntness.Good day, Bob, Joan Fisher <mjfisher2005@ ...> wrote:>> Kali is very hard to explain and I, too was aghast at Her appearance at one time. Now, She is My Mother and I do not find Her ugly or terrifying. She is dark and powerful and beautiful. Who can explain the devotion of one to another who cannot see the image with love? Mother is Mother, whether dark or fair, ugly or beautiful. She has taken away my Darkness time and again. > > Only a glimpse of Her is seen in human mothers, who will willingly defend their children to the death, wreaking terrible vengence. In Kali I see that Mother Who will protect me in that way. I see myself. Her love was so strong that She did not stop once all the enemies were gone until Shiva lay down in Her path and She turned Her eyes on Him and recognized Her beloved, Her other half, Her child. I know very little of philosophy, I am not learned, but I recognize this as a true story in a deep and timeless way. Have you seen a human woman defend her self with all her fury and emotion let loose? Have you seen a bear or a lion defend it's territory or offspring? Then you have seen a fraction of Kali's nature. > > Kali's meaning is also, not to take things only at the appearance level. It is easy to love the beautiful, the placid, the calm. But, within even the awful appearance is the loving heart. Her worship teaches not to take things on face value. God's blessings are sometimes terrible in our notion of what is bad, but turn out to be blessings nonetheless. God is beyond our notions of what is good or evil. All turns out to be good, because it all brings us to Her. > > We all fear the destruction of the Ego, but what appears to us a tragic loss at one time, when we have screwed up our lives and relied on ourselves with very bad results, then we are willing to let it go. And Kali takes that Ego, chops off it's head and carries it as a reminder that is very hard to ignore to continue to let go of the Ego. This individual self is in Her hands, now and always. Jai Kali Ma! Victory to You, O Mother of the Universe!> > Jai Shree Maa, Jai Swamiji!> > Kumari> > --- On Fri, 8/7/09, bob_walk2 <bob_walk2@. ..> wrote:> > > bob_walk2 <bob_walk2@. ..>> [www.ShreeMaa. org] Re: a blunt question> > Friday, August 7, 2009, 7:04 PM> > > > > > > > Hello to everyone, thank you for taking the time to give your many replies back to this string!> > I think we have an incredible amount of material of interest here that could be further discussed.> > For instance from bmarely God is related to as, "GOD IS ALL";> or if I understood him correctly both good and evil. Frankly I'm not interested in a God or Goddess who is both good and evil, although I'm interested in a God or Goddess who is beyond both good and evil. > > I have somewhat of a hard time with violent images representing God or Goddess as being that which is beyond both good and evil. Or of the ideas of violence overcoming violence in defense of natural goodness.> > I believe that many little kids get more than enough violence from various images and also in the facts of their young lives from many various sources, are they also to get it from various religions? (and it seems that most major religions have God or Goddess that are involved in various forms of violence)> > As for Hindu forms, there are many extremely powerful and invincible images (and in principles) that don't have the drastic limb and head chopping depictions (even if such chopping is only meant to be symbolic, ...btw the vast armies that have died on various battle-fields throughout history are not symbolic) Thus I firmly feel and believe that there is not a single deva, Mahadeva, spiritual teacher, saints or masters (female or male) that can use any form of violence against any other form of violence and remain in spiritual attainment, for in doing so they would be breaking the first and most important foundational and exacting universal law of yama. > > Sanatana Dharma is not a man made religion, thus in consideration of that very major factor it is unlike religions inspired by the founder/Saints of other religions.> > Th vast Mystery (or the idea of darkness as being the unknown mystery) of the universe does not also hold the connotation of fearsome violence for me.> > ParaShakti is an Ocean of Love ...without inspiring fear in even the the weakest, most fearfully ridden and tragic soul. Grace comes through Divine Shakti.> > Here is an image if you will, a trillion volts and amps of electricity does not need to willfully protect itself from anything - such is done so automatically by its inherent nature. > > Stories, yes some are just stories. Stories, no some are actual souls and people involved in actual events and facts. > > Om> > , "bob_walk2" <bob_walk2@ ..> wrote:> >> > > > Hello, > > > > Does anyone know why certain Hindu images of Gods and Goddess are so violent looking, and in some cases violent sounding and or violent acting per recorded doctrines?> > > > My take is that as soon as, or instantly so to speak that any one (whether they be human, deva, or of the Gods and Goddess's) engages in the consciousness of violence then one instantly falls into the lower astral realms or worlds because the Divine Dharma automatically and absolutely does not allow violence to exist in the higher heavenly worlds!! (or the worlds of the heavenly devas, the Gods and Goddess's, and also of the the human Masters and Saints that have attained the same) Thus how could the Gods or Goddess's engage in forms of violence and still remain in the Divine, non-violent consciousness?> > > > Further, with evil being automatically and completely blocked from access to certain heavenly worlds, ...how could ANY Divine Being use violence against violence or evil against evil while they are acting in the lesser worlds (where btw evil is not being completely or automatically blocked) and still maintain the Divine consciousness?> > > > Om> >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2009 Dear Bob:I'm not really a devotee, but an admirer of Swamiji and Shree Maa. I can't speak for them.To me the gods and goddesses are reflections of us. They are what we need at the time. We need fierceness, and there is Mother Kali. We need a loving mother flowing with wealth, there is Lakshmi. We need Divine Wisdom, and there is Saraswati. We need the lone ascetic, and there is Shiva. We need an earthly savior, and there is Krishna. The image of god/ goddess is of our creation. Even Ramakrishna had to cut down the image of Mother Kali to reach the void.The Devil and God are on the same team. If they weren't, the Devil would not be punishing those who disobeyed God. ;)Shanti Om,Shankari Hello Joan, Well said in the description of your faith in Goddess Kali! For myself the Ocean of ParaSakti without the human and or celestial aspects and forms is what I would relate to as the ultimate of Motherhood; I may have to move on soon since I don't want to intrude on your (and other peoples) form of religion with more bluntness. Good day, Bob --- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2009 him correctly both good and evil. Frankly I'm not > interested in a God or Goddess who is both good and evil, although I'm > interested in a God or Goddess who is beyond good and evil.god is nirguna and saguna. both good, evil. and yet beyond good and evil. god is everything. no exceptions. the exceptions are my mind trying to categorize things. what is good and bad to infinity? its all a play! there is no death. life is a play of hide and seek. to creator there is no deep attachment to all of this drama. if we are honest the thing that really gets us caught is our deep attachment to wether the wind blows left or right. wether something is good or bad. heaven or hell. i cannot die. i cannot be cut. my body is not me. it is easy to say but hard to do. but to infinite creator there is nothing else. if god created all then didnt god create the devil? or was that an "oops" ( i know big statement) as swamiji says. if i can remember god at the time of the dark then its no longer dark. Just that act alone brings light! BHRANTI RUPENA SAMSTITA. we bow to the goddess in the form of confusion. once i do that then im not confused. it becomes god. it always was god. i just refused to see it. if i can remember that god is in the murderor, then i can forgive and have compassion. if i can remember that god is in the person dying in the hospital then i remember they are returning home if i can remember that god is in the droughts and famines of the world then i can give if i can remember that god is in the pain then i will feel less pain. then i can always stay with my purpose. which is to remember god always. its easy to remember god when things are nice fluffy bunnies, its hardest to see god in the times of strife. this is when it is most needed. nightmage80 <NightMage80 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:20 am Re: [www.ShreeMaa.org] Re: a blunt question Just to be clear... Hinduism is not the only faith with a lot of bad things happening.... If you read the old testament, it is filled with sex and murder. If you read the new testament, again, a lot of really nasty things happening there also ending with Jesus being murdered on the cross. Even God in the old testament is a vengeful God... Look at what he does to Job to test him or to Sodom and Gomorrah. It is true that over the years, the sex and violence in the Bible have been glossed over but they are there. Also, which is worse, a symbol of Jesus on the cross, suggesting helplessness where even God will not protect his own child from being tortured by an evil nation or Kali slaying an evil army to protect herself and her people and suggesting that it is our duty to do the same. I find comfort in a God that protects their people. For my kids, I tell them that God protects us and it is our duty to protect others. I have a hard time explaining why I should allow myself or my family suffer because God will not protect us. The extreme of non-violence/self sacrifice is of course Kwan Yin. Again, it is a nice theory but not very practical. After all, everytime you eat something, you are committing violence, killing an animal or killing a plant since plants have life and souls. If you don't eat, you are also committing violence against yourself. There is no way to escape it unless you overcome Maya. Also... God is beyond Maya. That was defined in Hinduism before Krsna's era which is placed at around 3000 BCE. Anything that is dual is due to Maya aka... Good and Evil... Life and Death... Peace and Violence. Until we move beyond Maya, we always do violence since every action has both parts of the duality in it. bob_walk2 wrote: > > > > Hello to everyone, thank you for taking the time to give your many > replies back to this string! > > I think we have an incredible amount of material of interest here that > could be further discussed. > > For instance from bmarely God is related to as, "GOD IS ALL"; > or if I understood him correctly both good and evil. Frankly I'm not > interested in a God or Goddess who is both good and evil, although I'm > interested in a God or Goddess who is beyond both good and evil. > > I have somewhat of a hard time with violent images representing God or > Goddess as being that which is beyond both good and evil. Or of the > ideas of violence overcoming violence in defense of natural goodness. > > I believe that many little kids get more than enough violence from > various images and also in the facts of their young lives from many > various sources, are they also to get it from various religions? (and > it seems that most major religions have God or Goddess that are > involved in various forms of violence) > > As for Hindu forms, there are many extremely powerful and invincible > images (and in principles) that don't have the drastic limb and head > chopping depictions (even if such chopping is only meant to be > symbolic, ...btw the vast armies that have died on various > battle-fields throughout history are not symbolic) Thus I firmly feel > and believe that there is not a single deva, Mahadeva, spiritual > teacher, saints or masters (female or male) that can use any form of > violence against any other form of violence and remain in spiritual > attainment, for in doing so they would be breaking the first and most > important foundational and exacting universal law of yama. > > Sanatana Dharma is not a man made religion, thus in consideration of > that very major factor it is unlike religions inspired by the > founder/Saints of other religions. > > Th vast Mystery (or the idea of darkness as being the unknown mystery) > of the universe does not also hold the connotation of fearsome > violence for me. > > ParaShakti is an Ocean of Love ...without inspiring fear in even the > the weakest, most fearfully ridden and tragic soul. Grace comes > through Divine Shakti. > > Here is an image if you will, a trillion volts and amps of electricity > does not need to willfully protect itself from anything - such is done > so automatically by its inherent nature. > > Stories, yes some are just stories. Stories, no some are actual souls > and people involved in actual events and facts. > > Om > > > <%40>, "bob_walk2" <bob_walk2 wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > Does anyone know why certain Hindu images of Gods and Goddess are so > violent looking, and in some cases violent sounding and or violent > acting per recorded doctrines? > > > > My take is that as soon as, or instantly so to speak that any one > (whether they be human, deva, or of the Gods and Goddess's) engages in > the consciousness of violence then one instantly falls into the lower > astral realms or worlds because the Divine Dharma automatically and > absolutely does not allow violence to exist in the higher heavenly > worlds!! (or the worlds of the heavenly devas, the Gods and Goddess's, > and also of the the human Masters and Saints that have attained the > same) Thus how could the Gods or Goddess's engage in forms of violence > and still remain in the Divine, non-violent consciousness? > > > > Further, with evil being automatically and completely blocked from > access to certain heavenly worlds, ...how could ANY Divine Being use > violence against violence or evil against evil while they are acting > in the lesser worlds (where btw evil is not being completely or > automatically blocked) and still maintain the Divine consciousness? > > > > Om > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2009 Well said bmarely. To me much of what you are speaking of are aspects of " God " , yet God is more than just those aspects - like it sounds when you say mind is trying to define the wind blowing left or right. The Brahman is inside (so to speak) Lord Brahma the Creator, and also the other major aspects of preservation and destruction. Memory can not hold the Brahman, only Brahman can hold the Brahman, memory is valuable tool on the way but not the Brahman. Yes, to see Brahman at all times, in all places, and in all Beings and non-Beings is Sat, is Guru! Is exceedingly rare Being. Jai SatGuru , bmarley343 wrote: > > > > him correctly both good and evil. Frankly I'm not > > interested in a God or Goddess who is both good and evil, although I'm > > interested in a God or Goddess who is beyond good and evil. > god is nirguna and saguna. both good, evil. and yet beyond good and evil. god is everything. no exceptions. the exceptions are my mind trying to categorize things. what is good and bad to infinity? its all a play! there is no death. life is a play of hide and seek. to creator there is no deep attachment to all of this drama. if we are honest the thing that really gets us caught is our deep attachment to wether the wind blows left or right. wether something is good or bad. heaven or hell. i cannot die. i cannot be cut. my body is not me. it is easy to say but hard to do. but to infinite creator there is nothing else. > > if god created all then didnt god create the devil? or was that an " oops " ? ( i know big statement) > > as swamiji says. if i can remember god at the time of the dark then its no longer dark. Just that act alone brings light! > > BHRANTI RUPENA SAMSTITA. > > we bow to the goddess in the form of confusion. > > once i do that then im not confused. > > it becomes god. it always was god. i just refused to see it. > > if i can?remember that god is in the murderor, then i can forgive and have compassion. > if i can remember that god is in the person dying in the hospital then i remember they are returning home > if i can remember that god is in the droughts and famines of the world then i can give > if i can remember that god is in the pain then i will feel less pain. > > then i can always stay with my purpose. which is to remember god always. > > its easy to remember god when things are nice fluffy bunnies, its hardest to see god in the times of strife. this is when it is most needed. > > > nightmage80 <NightMage80 > > Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:20 am > Re: [www.ShreeMaa.org] Re: a blunt question Just to be clear... Hinduism is not the only faith with a lot of bad > things happening.... If you read the old testament, it is filled with > sex and murder. If you read the new testament, again, a lot of really > nasty things happening there also ending with Jesus being murdered on > the cross. Even God in the old testament is a vengeful God... Look at > what he does to Job to test him or to Sodom and Gomorrah. It is true > that over the years, the sex and violence in the Bible have been glossed > over but they are there. > > Also, which is worse, a symbol of Jesus on the cross, suggesting > helplessness where even God will not protect his own child from being > tortured by an evil nation or Kali slaying an evil army to protect > herself and her people and suggesting that it is our duty to do the > same. I find comfort in a God that protects their people. For my kids, I > tell them that God protects us and it is our duty to protect others. I > have a hard time explaining why I should allow myself or my family > suffer because God will not protect us. > > The extreme of non-violence/self sacrifice is of course Kwan Yin. Again, > it is a nice theory but not very practical. After all, everytime you eat > something, you are committing violence, killing an animal or killing a > plant since plants have life and souls. If you don't eat, you are also > committing violence against yourself. There is no way to escape it > unless you overcome Maya. > > Also... God is beyond Maya. That was defined in Hinduism before Krsna's > era which is placed at around 3000 BCE. Anything that is dual is due to > Maya aka... Good and Evil... Life and Death... Peace and Violence. Until > we move beyond Maya, we always do violence since every action has both > parts of the duality in it. > > bob_walk2 wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello to everyone, thank you for taking the time to give your many > > replies back to this string! > > > > I think we have an incredible amount of material of interest here that > > could be further discussed. > > > > For instance from bmarely God is related to as, " GOD IS ALL " ; > > or if I understood him correctly both good and evil. Frankly I'm not > > interested in a God or Goddess who is both good and evil, although I'm > > interested in a God or Goddess who is beyond both good and evil. > > > > I have somewhat of a hard time with violent images representing God or > > Goddess as being that which is beyond both good and evil. Or of the > > ideas of violence overcoming violence in defense of natural goodness. > > > > I believe that many little kids get more than enough violence from > > various images and also in the facts of their young lives from many > > various sources, are they also to get it from various religions? (and > > it seems that most major religions have God or Goddess that are > > involved in various forms of violence) > > > > As for Hindu forms, there are many extremely powerful and invincible > > images (and in principles) that don't have the drastic limb and head > > chopping depictions (even if such chopping is only meant to be > > symbolic, ...btw the vast armies that have died on various > > battle-fields throughout history are not symbolic) Thus I firmly feel > > and believe that there is not a single deva, Mahadeva, spiritual > > teacher, saints or masters (female or male) that can use any form of > > violence against any other form of violence and remain in spiritual > > attainment, for in doing so they would be breaking the first and most > > important foundational and exacting universal law of yama. > > > > Sanatana Dharma is not a man made religion, thus in consideration of > > that very major factor it is unlike religions inspired by the > > founder/Saints of other religions. > > > > Th vast Mystery (or the idea of darkness as being the unknown mystery) > > of the universe does not also hold the connotation of fearsome > > violence for me. > > > > ParaShakti is an Ocean of Love ...without inspiring fear in even the > > the weakest, most fearfully ridden and tragic soul. Grace comes > > through Divine Shakti. > > > > Here is an image if you will, a trillion volts and amps of electricity > > does not need to willfully protect itself from anything - such is done > > so automatically by its inherent nature. > > > > Stories, yes some are just stories. Stories, no some are actual souls > > and people involved in actual events and facts. > > > > Om > > > > > > <%40>, " bob_walk2 " <bob_walk2@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > Does anyone know why certain Hindu images of Gods and Goddess are so > > violent looking, and in some cases violent sounding and or violent > > acting per recorded doctrines? > > > > > > My take is that as soon as, or instantly so to speak that any one > > (whether they be human, deva, or of the Gods and Goddess's) engages in > > the consciousness of violence then one instantly falls into the lower > > astral realms or worlds because the Divine Dharma automatically and > > absolutely does not allow violence to exist in the higher heavenly > > worlds!! (or the worlds of the heavenly devas, the Gods and Goddess's, > > and also of the the human Masters and Saints that have attained the > > same) Thus how could the Gods or Goddess's engage in forms of violence > > and still remain in the Divine, non-violent consciousness? > > > > > > Further, with evil being automatically and completely blocked from > > access to certain heavenly worlds, ...how could ANY Divine Being use > > violence against violence or evil against evil while they are acting > > in the lesser worlds (where btw evil is not being completely or > > automatically blocked) and still maintain the Divine consciousness? > > > > > > Om > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2009 > Yes, to see Brahman at all times, in all places, and in all Beings and > non-Beings is Sat, is Guru! Is exceedingly rare Being. Not true! Everything that *you* see is the radiance of Brahman. Lack of recognition is the problem. To that end, tantra uses a conspiracy of symbols to trigger continuous recollection of this unique fact of awareness. I encourage you to read 'Hymn to Kali' translated by John Woodroffe: http://www.sacred-texts.com/tantra/htk/index.htm There is an exhaustive treatment of the underlying import of the form of the Mother. Every aspect of her appearance from the sword she raises to the severed head she holds is a reminder of the all-encompassing, all pervasive awareness. I think that part of the problem with this discussion is that we are mixing Judeo-Christian concepts into an unfamiliar context. The underlying Manichean dualism that Augustine brought to Christianity does not find a happy home in Hindu tantra. Good and evil are mere imputations. Papam and punyam are not well translated by these terms. Good and evil in Christian dualism are opposing ontological forces. In Hindu thought, papam and punyam are merely harmful and helpful actions and their results. Also God as a concept carries much baggage that Brahman does not. When we make a porridge out of many religions, we are bound to get indigestion. Each must be considered carefully in its own context. They may indeed have the same goal, but facile correlations can just pile confusion on top of confusion. The idea of Brahman has a much different genesis and context than the evolution of our western notions of " God " . To skip back a few posts as I late to the discussion, I don't accept a necessary distinction between jnani and bhakta. One can be both. One needs to think these things through or one can have underestimate the richness of one's potential. Blessings! Kalidas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2009 Hello Kalidas, Perhaps you misunderstood my meaning? I meant that only SatGuru truly sees at all times, all places, and all beings and non-beings as Brahman; although and of course many people have very deep moments and wonderful experiences that reveal or are related to understanding Brahman better yet we then come back, back to certain limitations. SatGuru does not come back to certain limitations... such an exceedingly rare one of Grace is seeing, or is one with the Brahman - 24/7. Om Note: These are my own ramblings, thus not from the Devi Mandir school of spiritual teachers. , Thubten Namgyal <anandabhairav wrote: > > > Yes, to see Brahman at all times, in all places, and in all Beings and > > non-Beings is Sat, is Guru! Is exceedingly rare Being. > > Not true! Everything that *you* see is the radiance of Brahman. Lack > of recognition is the problem. To that end, tantra uses a conspiracy > of symbols to trigger continuous recollection of this unique fact of > awareness. I encourage you to read 'Hymn to Kali' translated by John > Woodroffe: > > http://www.sacred-texts.com/tantra/htk/index.htm > > There is an exhaustive treatment of the underlying import of the form > of the Mother. Every aspect of her appearance from the sword she > raises to the severed head she holds is a reminder of the > all-encompassing, all pervasive awareness. > > I think that part of the problem with this discussion is that we are > mixing Judeo-Christian concepts into an unfamiliar context. The > underlying Manichean dualism that Augustine brought to Christianity > does not find a happy home in Hindu tantra. Good and evil are mere > imputations. Papam and punyam are not well translated by these terms. > Good and evil in Christian dualism are opposing ontological forces. > In Hindu thought, papam and punyam are merely harmful and helpful > actions and their results. > > Also God as a concept carries much baggage that Brahman does not. > When we make a porridge out of many religions, we are bound to get > indigestion. Each must be considered carefully in its own context. > They may indeed have the same goal, but facile correlations can just > pile confusion on top of confusion. The idea of Brahman has a much > different genesis and context than the evolution of our western > notions of " God " . > > To skip back a few posts as I late to the discussion, I don't accept a > necessary distinction between jnani and bhakta. One can be both. One > needs to think these things through or one can have underestimate the > richness of one's potential. > > Blessings! > > Kalidas > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 Dear Bob, I catch your meaning. I am merely saying that knowledge of Brahman is right in front of your eyes all the time. Brahman is not an experience to have, Brahman is the one experiencing. The images of the devatas are a constant reminder of this... some of those images are shocking and outside of our conventional sensibilities. Whether one is jivanmukti or not is another question, but we should not cultivate the idea that Brahmavidya is a distant and unattainable thing. It is closer to you than your own breath! Kalidas On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 3:56 PM, bob_walk2<bob_walk2 wrote: > > > Hello Kalidas, > > Perhaps you misunderstood my meaning? > I meant that only SatGuru truly sees at all times, all places, and all > beings and non-beings as Brahman; although and of course many people have > very deep moments and wonderful experiences that reveal or are related to > understanding Brahman better yet we then come back, back to certain > limitations. SatGuru does not come back to certain limitations... such an > exceedingly rare one of Grace is seeing, or is one with the Brahman - 24/7. > > Om > > Note: These are my own ramblings, thus not from the Devi Mandir school of > spiritual teachers. > > , Thubten Namgyal <anandabhairav > wrote: >> >> > Yes, to see Brahman at all times, in all places, and in all Beings and >> > non-Beings is Sat, is Guru! Is exceedingly rare Being. >> >> Not true! Everything that *you* see is the radiance of Brahman. Lack >> of recognition is the problem. To that end, tantra uses a conspiracy >> of symbols to trigger continuous recollection of this unique fact of >> awareness. I encourage you to read 'Hymn to Kali' translated by John >> Woodroffe: >> >> http://www.sacred-texts.com/tantra/htk/index.htm >> >> There is an exhaustive treatment of the underlying import of the form >> of the Mother. Every aspect of her appearance from the sword she >> raises to the severed head she holds is a reminder of the >> all-encompassing, all pervasive awareness. >> >> I think that part of the problem with this discussion is that we are >> mixing Judeo-Christian concepts into an unfamiliar context. The >> underlying Manichean dualism that Augustine brought to Christianity >> does not find a happy home in Hindu tantra. Good and evil are mere >> imputations. Papam and punyam are not well translated by these terms. >> Good and evil in Christian dualism are opposing ontological forces. >> In Hindu thought, papam and punyam are merely harmful and helpful >> actions and their results. >> >> Also God as a concept carries much baggage that Brahman does not. >> When we make a porridge out of many religions, we are bound to get >> indigestion. Each must be considered carefully in its own context. >> They may indeed have the same goal, but facile correlations can just >> pile confusion on top of confusion. The idea of Brahman has a much >> different genesis and context than the evolution of our western >> notions of " God " . >> >> To skip back a few posts as I late to the discussion, I don't accept a >> necessary distinction between jnani and bhakta. One can be both. One >> needs to think these things through or one can have underestimate the >> richness of one's potential. >> >> Blessings! >> >> Kalidas >> > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 True, neither distant nor unattainable, (aka right under our noses) yet exceedingly rare as fully and always awakened 24/7 in human manifestation. (or in any other form of manifestation in any other realm, my take anyway) Om Peace , Thubten Namgyal <anandabhairav wrote: > > Dear Bob, > > I catch your meaning. I am merely saying that knowledge of Brahman is > right in front of your eyes all the time. Brahman is not an > experience to have, Brahman is the one experiencing. The images of > the devatas are a constant reminder of this... some of those images > are shocking and outside of our conventional sensibilities. > > Whether one is jivanmukti or not is another question, but we should > not cultivate the idea that Brahmavidya is a distant and unattainable > thing. It is closer to you than your own breath! > > Kalidas > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 3:56 PM, bob_walk2<bob_walk2 wrote: > > > > > > Hello Kalidas, > > > > Perhaps you misunderstood my meaning? > > I meant that only SatGuru truly sees at all times, all places, and all > > beings and non-beings as Brahman; although and of course many people have > > very deep moments and wonderful experiences that reveal or are related to > > understanding Brahman better yet we then come back, back to certain > > limitations. SatGuru does not come back to certain limitations... such an > > exceedingly rare one of Grace is seeing, or is one with the Brahman - 24/7. > > > > Om > > > > Note: These are my own ramblings, thus not from the Devi Mandir school of > > spiritual teachers. > > > > , Thubten Namgyal <anandabhairav@> > > wrote: > >> > >> > Yes, to see Brahman at all times, in all places, and in all Beings and > >> > non-Beings is Sat, is Guru! Is exceedingly rare Being. > >> > >> Not true! Everything that *you* see is the radiance of Brahman. Lack > >> of recognition is the problem. To that end, tantra uses a conspiracy > >> of symbols to trigger continuous recollection of this unique fact of > >> awareness. I encourage you to read 'Hymn to Kali' translated by John > >> Woodroffe: > >> > >> http://www.sacred-texts.com/tantra/htk/index.htm > >> > >> There is an exhaustive treatment of the underlying import of the form > >> of the Mother. Every aspect of her appearance from the sword she > >> raises to the severed head she holds is a reminder of the > >> all-encompassing, all pervasive awareness. > >> > >> I think that part of the problem with this discussion is that we are > >> mixing Judeo-Christian concepts into an unfamiliar context. The > >> underlying Manichean dualism that Augustine brought to Christianity > >> does not find a happy home in Hindu tantra. Good and evil are mere > >> imputations. Papam and punyam are not well translated by these terms. > >> Good and evil in Christian dualism are opposing ontological forces. > >> In Hindu thought, papam and punyam are merely harmful and helpful > >> actions and their results. > >> > >> Also God as a concept carries much baggage that Brahman does not. > >> When we make a porridge out of many religions, we are bound to get > >> indigestion. Each must be considered carefully in its own context. > >> They may indeed have the same goal, but facile correlations can just > >> pile confusion on top of confusion. The idea of Brahman has a much > >> different genesis and context than the evolution of our western > >> notions of " God " . > >> > >> To skip back a few posts as I late to the discussion, I don't accept a > >> necessary distinction between jnani and bhakta. One can be both. One > >> needs to think these things through or one can have underestimate the > >> richness of one's potential. > >> > >> Blessings! > >> > >> Kalidas > >> > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 14, 2009 Hello Kumari, I kind of lost track of all the various posts and replys to same along these lines? Anyway I thought some else had a reply about jnani (wisdom/intellect) and bhakti (love/feelings) in regards to your post? And I agreed with them when they said something like a balance of both is possible and or that the two are not exclusive of one another. I do like the reasoning approach but I would not call myself a " Jnani " in the sense of those who have that great attainment of wisdom. Also, I feel that the reasoning/mental approach goes flat without one's emotions and feelings being a factor and fuel for work and inspiration. Jai Ganesha , Joan Fisher <mjfisher2005 wrote: > > You are Jnani, I am Bhakti. There is no problem in that. It is a difference in temperment, that is all. There is room in this universe for many points of view. I acknowledge the formless as well as God with form. Peace to you and all. I apologize if I have made my statements too strongly. > > Jai Shree Maa, Jai Swamiji! > > Kumari > > --- On Sat, 8/8/09, bob_walk2 <bob_walk2 wrote: > > > bob_walk2 <bob_walk2 > [www.ShreeMaa.org] Re: a blunt question > > Saturday, August 8, 2009, 3:00 PM > > > > > > > > Hello Joan, Well said in the description of your faith in Goddess Kali! > > For myself the Ocean of ParaSakti without the human and or celestial aspects and forms is what I would relate to as the ultimate of Motherhood; I may have to move on soon since I don't want to intrude on your (and other peoples) form of religion with more bluntness. > > Good day, Bob > > , Joan Fisher <mjfisher2005@ ...> wrote: > > > > Kali is very hard to explain and I, too was aghast at Her appearance at one time. Now, She is My Mother and I do not find Her ugly or terrifying. She is dark and powerful and beautiful. Who can explain the devotion of one to another who cannot see the image with love? Mother is Mother, whether dark or fair, ugly or beautiful. She has taken away my Darkness time and again. > > > > Only a glimpse of Her is seen in human mothers, who will willingly defend their children to the death, wreaking terrible vengence. In Kali I see that Mother Who will protect me in that way. I see myself. Her love was so strong that She did not stop once all the enemies were gone until Shiva lay down in Her path and She turned Her eyes on Him and recognized Her beloved, Her other half, Her child. I know very little of philosophy, I am not learned, but I recognize this as a true story in a deep and timeless way. Have you seen a human woman defend her self with all her fury and emotion let loose? Have you seen a bear or a lion defend it's territory or offspring? Then you have seen a fraction of Kali's nature. > > > > Kali's meaning is also, not to take things only at the appearance level. It is easy to love the beautiful, the placid, the calm. But, within even the awful appearance is the loving heart. Her worship teaches not to take things on face value. God's blessings are sometimes terrible in our notion of what is bad, but turn out to be blessings nonetheless. God is beyond our notions of what is good or evil. All turns out to be good, because it all brings us to Her. > > > > We all fear the destruction of the Ego, but what appears to us a tragic loss at one time, when we have screwed up our lives and relied on ourselves with very bad results, then we are willing to let it go. And Kali takes that Ego, chops off it's head and carries it as a reminder that is very hard to ignore to continue to let go of the Ego. This individual self is in Her hands, now and always. Jai Kali Ma! Victory to You, O Mother of the Universe! > > > > Jai Shree Maa, Jai Swamiji! > > > > Kumari > > > > --- On Fri, 8/7/09, bob_walk2 <bob_walk2@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > bob_walk2 <bob_walk2@ ..> > > [www.ShreeMaa. org] Re: a blunt question > > > > Friday, August 7, 2009, 7:04 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello to everyone, thank you for taking the time to give your many replies back to this string! > > > > I think we have an incredible amount of material of interest here that could be further discussed. > > > > For instance from bmarely God is related to as, " GOD IS ALL " ; > > or if I understood him correctly both good and evil. Frankly I'm not interested in a God or Goddess who is both good and evil, although I'm interested in a God or Goddess who is beyond both good and evil. > > > > I have somewhat of a hard time with violent images representing God or Goddess as being that which is beyond both good and evil. Or of the ideas of violence overcoming violence in defense of natural goodness. > > > > I believe that many little kids get more than enough violence from various images and also in the facts of their young lives from many various sources, are they also to get it from various religions? (and it seems that most major religions have God or Goddess that are involved in various forms of violence) > > > > As for Hindu forms, there are many extremely powerful and invincible images (and in principles) that don't have the drastic limb and head chopping depictions (even if such chopping is only meant to be symbolic, ...btw the vast armies that have died on various battle-fields throughout history are not symbolic) Thus I firmly feel and believe that there is not a single deva, Mahadeva, spiritual teacher, saints or masters (female or male) that can use any form of violence against any other form of violence and remain in spiritual attainment, for in doing so they would be breaking the first and most important foundational and exacting universal law of yama. > > > > Sanatana Dharma is not a man made religion, thus in consideration of that very major factor it is unlike religions inspired by the founder/Saints of other religions. > > > > Th vast Mystery (or the idea of darkness as being the unknown mystery) of the universe does not also hold the connotation of fearsome violence for me. > > > > ParaShakti is an Ocean of Love ...without inspiring fear in even the the weakest, most fearfully ridden and tragic soul. Grace comes through Divine Shakti. > > > > Here is an image if you will, a trillion volts and amps of electricity does not need to willfully protect itself from anything - such is done so automatically by its inherent nature. > > > > Stories, yes some are just stories. Stories, no some are actual souls and people involved in actual events and facts. > > > > Om > > > > , " bob_walk2 " <bob_walk2@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > Does anyone know why certain Hindu images of Gods and Goddess are so violent looking, and in some cases violent sounding and or violent acting per recorded doctrines? > > > > > > My take is that as soon as, or instantly so to speak that any one (whether they be human, deva, or of the Gods and Goddess's) engages in the consciousness of violence then one instantly falls into the lower astral realms or worlds because the Divine Dharma automatically and absolutely does not allow violence to exist in the higher heavenly worlds!! (or the worlds of the heavenly devas, the Gods and Goddess's, and also of the the human Masters and Saints that have attained the same) Thus how could the Gods or Goddess's engage in forms of violence and still remain in the Divine, non-violent consciousness? > > > > > > Further, with evil being automatically and completely blocked from access to certain heavenly worlds, ...how could ANY Divine Being use violence against violence or evil against evil while they are acting in the lesser worlds (where btw evil is not being completely or automatically blocked) and still maintain the Divine consciousness? > > > > > > Om > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 14, 2009 Yes, a person cannot be totally Jnani, Bhakta or Karma Yogi or Raja Yogi. As Swamiji has said without devotion, how can there be learning, without learning how can there be meditation, etc. I meant only that each person has a tendency towards one or another path. You are able to discuss minute points of doctrine and have power of discrimination and rational thought seems to please you. I don't doubt you have devotion towards your ishta devata and that you practice the other paths as well, but your main tendency is towards Jnana - discrimination. For me, the play of emotion is more important. The path of devotion comes to me easily and naturally. I want to worship and offer what I have to the Goddess and feel Her protection always with me. I need to see Her in a Human like form with human like qualities. This does not mean that I neglect meditation and do not study shastras. It only means Bhakti is the most prominent tendency in my heart and mind. And it means I do not like to undertake a lot of disputation. I would rather be praising and worshipping my Divine Mother. My using Jnani in your case, just means that you have that tendency to practice that path. The level of attainment is not something for me to judge. That is why each of us look at an issue from a slightly different perspective. We are looking at the same thing, but we have coloured it in different ways with our minds. I respect your path, I bow to your path, but I must practice mine, which includes yours. Jai Maa! Jai Swamiji! Jai Shree Maa! Kumari--- On Fri, 8/14/09, bob_walk2 <bob_walk2 wrote: bob_walk2 <bob_walk2[www.ShreeMaa.org] Re: a blunt question Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 9:53 AM Hello Kumari,I kind of lost track of all the various posts and replys to same along these lines? Anyway I thought some else had a reply about jnani (wisdom/intellect) and bhakti (love/feelings) in regards to your post? And I agreed with them when they said something like a balance of both is possible and or that the two are not exclusive of one another. I do like the reasoning approach but I would not call myself a "Jnani" in the sense of those who have that great attainment of wisdom. Also, I feel that the reasoning/mental approach goes flat without one's emotions and feelings being a factor and fuel for work and inspiration. Jai Ganesha, Joan Fisher <mjfisher2005@ ...> wrote:>> You are Jnani, I am Bhakti. There is no problem in that. It is a difference in temperment, that is all. There is room in this universe for many points of view. I acknowledge the formless as well as God with form. Peace to you and all. I apologize if I have made my statements too strongly.> > Jai Shree Maa, Jai Swamiji!> > Kumari> > --- On Sat, 8/8/09, bob_walk2 <bob_walk2@. ..> wrote:> > > bob_walk2 <bob_walk2@. ..>> [www.ShreeMaa. org] Re: a blunt question> > Saturday, August 8, 2009, 3:00 PM> > > > > > > > Hello Joan, Well said in the description of your faith in Goddess Kali!> > For myself the Ocean of ParaSakti without the human and or celestial aspects and forms is what I would relate to as the ultimate of Motherhood; I may have to move on soon since I don't want to intrude on your (and other peoples) form of religion with more bluntness.> > Good day, Bob> > , Joan Fisher <mjfisher2005@ ...> wrote:> >> > Kali is very hard to explain and I, too was aghast at Her appearance at one time. Now, She is My Mother and I do not find Her ugly or terrifying. She is dark and powerful and beautiful. Who can explain the devotion of one to another who cannot see the image with love? Mother is Mother, whether dark or fair, ugly or beautiful. She has taken away my Darkness time and again. > > > > Only a glimpse of Her is seen in human mothers, who will willingly defend their children to the death, wreaking terrible vengence. In Kali I see that Mother Who will protect me in that way. I see myself. Her love was so strong that She did not stop once all the enemies were gone until Shiva lay down in Her path and She turned Her eyes on Him and recognized Her beloved, Her other half, Her child. I know very little of philosophy, I am not learned, but I recognize this as a true story in a deep and timeless way. Have you seen a human woman defend her self with all her fury and emotion let loose? Have you seen a bear or a lion defend it's territory or offspring? Then you have seen a fraction of Kali's nature. > > > > Kali's meaning is also, not to take things only at the appearance level. It is easy to love the beautiful, the placid, the calm. But, within even the awful appearance is the loving heart. Her worship teaches not to take things on face value. God's blessings are sometimes terrible in our notion of what is bad, but turn out to be blessings nonetheless. God is beyond our notions of what is good or evil. All turns out to be good, because it all brings us to Her. > > > > We all fear the destruction of the Ego, but what appears to us a tragic loss at one time, when we have screwed up our lives and relied on ourselves with very bad results, then we are willing to let it go. And Kali takes that Ego, chops off it's head and carries it as a reminder that is very hard to ignore to continue to let go of the Ego. This individual self is in Her hands, now and always. Jai Kali Ma! Victory to You, O Mother of the Universe!> > > > Jai Shree Maa, Jai Swamiji!> > > > Kumari> > > > --- On Fri, 8/7/09, bob_walk2 <bob_walk2@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > bob_walk2 <bob_walk2@ ..>> > [www.ShreeMaa. org] Re: a blunt question> > > > Friday, August 7, 2009, 7:04 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello to everyone, thank you for taking the time to give your many replies back to this string!> > > > I think we have an incredible amount of material of interest here that could be further discussed.> > > > For instance from bmarely God is related to as, "GOD IS ALL";> > or if I understood him correctly both good and evil. Frankly I'm not interested in a God or Goddess who is both good and evil, although I'm interested in a God or Goddess who is beyond both good and evil. > > > > I have somewhat of a hard time with violent images representing God or Goddess as being that which is beyond both good and evil. Or of the ideas of violence overcoming violence in defense of natural goodness.> > > > I believe that many little kids get more than enough violence from various images and also in the facts of their young lives from many various sources, are they also to get it from various religions? (and it seems that most major religions have God or Goddess that are involved in various forms of violence)> > > > As for Hindu forms, there are many extremely powerful and invincible images (and in principles) that don't have the drastic limb and head chopping depictions (even if such chopping is only meant to be symbolic, ...btw the vast armies that have died on various battle-fields throughout history are not symbolic) Thus I firmly feel and believe that there is not a single deva, Mahadeva, spiritual teacher, saints or masters (female or male) that can use any form of violence against any other form of violence and remain in spiritual attainment, for in doing so they would be breaking the first and most important foundational and exacting universal law of yama. > > > > Sanatana Dharma is not a man made religion, thus in consideration of that very major factor it is unlike religions inspired by the founder/Saints of other religions.> > > > Th vast Mystery (or the idea of darkness as being the unknown mystery) of the universe does not also hold the connotation of fearsome violence for me.> > > > ParaShakti is an Ocean of Love ...without inspiring fear in even the the weakest, most fearfully ridden and tragic soul. Grace comes through Divine Shakti.> > > > Here is an image if you will, a trillion volts and amps of electricity does not need to willfully protect itself from anything - such is done so automatically by its inherent nature. > > > > Stories, yes some are just stories. Stories, no some are actual souls and people involved in actual events and facts. > > > > Om> > > > , "bob_walk2" <bob_walk2@ ..> wrote:> > >> > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > Does anyone know why certain Hindu images of Gods and Goddess are so violent looking, and in some cases violent sounding and or violent acting per recorded doctrines?> > > > > > My take is that as soon as, or instantly so to speak that any one (whether they be human, deva, or of the Gods and Goddess's) engages in the consciousness of violence then one instantly falls into the lower astral realms or worlds because the Divine Dharma automatically and absolutely does not allow violence to exist in the higher heavenly worlds!! (or the worlds of the heavenly devas, the Gods and Goddess's, and also of the the human Masters and Saints that have attained the same) Thus how could the Gods or Goddess's engage in forms of violence and still remain in the Divine, non-violent consciousness?> > > > > > Further, with evil being automatically and completely blocked from access to certain heavenly worlds, ...how could ANY Divine Being use violence against violence or evil against evil while they are acting in the lesser worlds (where btw evil is not being completely or automatically blocked) and still maintain the Divine consciousness?> > > > > > Om> > >> >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 15, 2009 Hi Kumari, Thanks for the fine reply! I do relate to Mahadeva Ganesha as the protector, guardian and deeply wise one of the Way... but I have not chosen any particular school or form of God as my favorite, although I find the teachings and meanings spoken of in relation to Lord Nataraja to be divinely profound, (!) but what is possible without ParaSakti and Her many forms (?) it seems only potential. One of my favorite upanishads: Chhandogya, 8th PRAPÂTHAKA, 1st KHANDA. " 1. Harih, Om. There is this city of Brahman (the body), and in it the palace, the small lotus (of the heart), and in it that small ether. Now what exists within that small ether, that is to be sought for, that is to be understood. 2. And if they should say to him: 'Now with regard to that city of Brahman, and the palace in it, i. e. the small lotus of the heart, and the small ether within the heart, what is there within it that deserves to be sought for, or that is to be understood?' 3. Then he should say: 'As large as this ether (all space) is, so large is that ether within the heart. Both heaven and earth are contained within it, both fire and air, both sun and moon, both lightning and stars; and whatever there is of him (the Self) here in the world, and whatever is not (i.e. whatever has been or will be), all that is contained within it.' 4. And if they should say to him: 'If everything that exists is contained in that city of Brahman, all beings and all desires (whatever can be imagined or desired), then what is left of it, when old age reaches it and scatters it, or when it falls to pieces?' 5. Then he should say: 'By the old age of the body, that (the ether, or Brahman within it) does not age; by the death of the body, that (the ether, or Brahman within it) is not killed. That (the Brahman) is the true Brahma-city (not the body). In it all desires are contained. It is the Self, free from sin, free from old age, from death and grief, from hunger and thirst, which desires nothing but what it ought to desire, and imagines nothing but what it ought to imagine. Now as here on earth people follow as they are commanded, and depend on the object which they are attached to, be it a country or a piece of land, 6. 'And as here on earth, whatever has been acquired by exertion, perishes, so perishes whatever is acquired for the next world by sacrifices and other good actions performed on earth. Those who depart from hence without having discovered the Self and those true desires, for them there is no freedom in all the worlds. But those who depart from hence, after having discovered the Self and those true desires, for them there is freedom in all the worlds " Om Shanti , Joan Fisher <mjfisher2005 wrote: > > Yes, a person cannot be totally Jnani, Bhakta or Karma Yogi or Raja Yogi. As Swamiji has said without devotion, how can there be learning, without learning how can there be meditation, etc. I meant only that each person has a tendency towards one or another path. You are able to discuss minute points of doctrine and have power of discrimination and rational thought seems to please you. I don't doubt you have devotion towards your ishta devata and that you practice the other paths as well, but your main tendency is towards Jnana - discrimination. > > For me, the play of emotion is more important. The path of devotion comes to me easily and naturally. I want to worship and offer what I have to the Goddess and feel Her protection always with me. I need to see Her in a Human like form with human like qualities. This does not mean that I neglect meditation and do not study shastras. It only means Bhakti is the most prominent tendency in my heart and mind. And it means I do not like to undertake a lot of disputation. I would rather be praising and worshipping my Divine Mother. > > My using Jnani in your case, just means that you have that tendency to practice that path. The level of attainment is not something for me to judge. That is why each of us look at an issue from a slightly different perspective. We are looking at the same thing, but we have coloured it in different ways with our minds. I respect your path, I bow to your path, but I must practice mine, which includes yours. > > Jai Maa! > Jai Swamiji! Jai Shree Maa! > > Kumari > > --- On Fri, 8/14/09, bob_walk2 <bob_walk2 wrote: > > > bob_walk2 <bob_walk2 > [www.ShreeMaa.org] Re: a blunt question > > Friday, August 14, 2009, 9:53 AM > > > > > > > Hello Kumari, > > I kind of lost track of all the various posts and replys to same along these lines? Anyway I thought some else had a reply about jnani (wisdom/intellect) and bhakti (love/feelings) in regards to your post? And I agreed with them when they said something like a balance of both is possible and or that the two are not exclusive of one another. I do like the reasoning approach but I would not call myself a " Jnani " in the sense of those who have that great attainment of wisdom. Also, I feel that the reasoning/mental approach goes flat without one's emotions and feelings being a factor and fuel for work and inspiration. > > Jai Ganesha > > , Joan Fisher <mjfisher2005@ ...> wrote: > > > > You are Jnani, I am Bhakti. There is no problem in that. It is a difference in temperment, that is all. There is room in this universe for many points of view. I acknowledge the formless as well as God with form. Peace to you and all. I apologize if I have made my statements too strongly. > > > > Jai Shree Maa, Jai Swamiji! > > > > Kumari > > > > --- On Sat, 8/8/09, bob_walk2 <bob_walk2@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > bob_walk2 <bob_walk2@ ..> > > [www.ShreeMaa. org] Re: a blunt question > > > > Saturday, August 8, 2009, 3:00 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Joan, Well said in the description of your faith in Goddess Kali! > > > > For myself the Ocean of ParaSakti without the human and or celestial aspects and forms is what I would relate to as the ultimate of Motherhood; I may have to move on soon since I don't want to intrude on your (and other peoples) form of religion with more bluntness. > > > > Good day, Bob > > > > , Joan Fisher <mjfisher2005@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Kali is very hard to explain and I, too was aghast at Her appearance at one time. Now, She is My Mother and I do not find Her ugly or terrifying. She is dark and powerful and beautiful. Who can explain the devotion of one to another who cannot see the image with love? Mother is Mother, whether dark or fair, ugly or beautiful. She has taken away my Darkness time and again. > > > > > > Only a glimpse of Her is seen in human mothers, who will willingly defend their children to the death, wreaking terrible vengence. In Kali I see that Mother Who will protect me in that way. I see myself. Her love was so strong that She did not stop once all the enemies were gone until Shiva lay down in Her path and She turned Her eyes on Him and recognized Her beloved, Her other half, Her child. I know very little of philosophy, I am not learned, but I recognize this as a true story in a deep and timeless way. Have you seen a human woman defend her self with all her fury and emotion let loose? Have you seen a bear or a lion defend it's territory or offspring? Then you have seen a fraction of Kali's nature. > > > > > > Kali's meaning is also, not to take things only at the appearance level. It is easy to love the beautiful, the placid, the calm. But, within even the awful appearance is the loving heart. Her worship teaches not to take things on face value. God's blessings are sometimes terrible in our notion of what is bad, but turn out to be blessings nonetheless. God is beyond our notions of what is good or evil. All turns out to be good, because it all brings us to Her. > > > > > > We all fear the destruction of the Ego, but what appears to us a tragic loss at one time, when we have screwed up our lives and relied on ourselves with very bad results, then we are willing to let it go. And Kali takes that Ego, chops off it's head and carries it as a reminder that is very hard to ignore to continue to let go of the Ego. This individual self is in Her hands, now and always. Jai Kali Ma! Victory to You, O Mother of the Universe! > > > > > > Jai Shree Maa, Jai Swamiji! > > > > > > Kumari > > > > > > --- On Fri, 8/7/09, bob_walk2 <bob_walk2@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > bob_walk2 <bob_walk2@ ..> > > > [www.ShreeMaa. org] Re: a blunt question > > > > > > Friday, August 7, 2009, 7:04 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello to everyone, thank you for taking the time to give your many replies back to this string! > > > > > > I think we have an incredible amount of material of interest here that could be further discussed. > > > > > > For instance from bmarely God is related to as, " GOD IS ALL " ; > > > or if I understood him correctly both good and evil. Frankly I'm not interested in a God or Goddess who is both good and evil, although I'm interested in a God or Goddess who is beyond both good and evil. > > > > > > I have somewhat of a hard time with violent images representing God or Goddess as being that which is beyond both good and evil. Or of the ideas of violence overcoming violence in defense of natural goodness. > > > > > > I believe that many little kids get more than enough violence from various images and also in the facts of their young lives from many various sources, are they also to get it from various religions? (and it seems that most major religions have God or Goddess that are involved in various forms of violence) > > > > > > As for Hindu forms, there are many extremely powerful and invincible images (and in principles) that don't have the drastic limb and head chopping depictions (even if such chopping is only meant to be symbolic, ...btw the vast armies that have died on various battle-fields throughout history are not symbolic) Thus I firmly feel and believe that there is not a single deva, Mahadeva, spiritual teacher, saints or masters (female or male) that can use any form of violence against any other form of violence and remain in spiritual attainment, for in doing so they would be breaking the first and most important foundational and exacting universal law of yama. > > > > > > Sanatana Dharma is not a man made religion, thus in consideration of that very major factor it is unlike religions inspired by the founder/Saints of other religions. > > > > > > Th vast Mystery (or the idea of darkness as being the unknown mystery) of the universe does not also hold the connotation of fearsome violence for me. > > > > > > ParaShakti is an Ocean of Love ...without inspiring fear in even the the weakest, most fearfully ridden and tragic soul. Grace comes through Divine Shakti. > > > > > > Here is an image if you will, a trillion volts and amps of electricity does not need to willfully protect itself from anything - such is done so automatically by its inherent nature. > > > > > > Stories, yes some are just stories. Stories, no some are actual souls and people involved in actual events and facts. > > > > > > Om > > > > > > , " bob_walk2 " <bob_walk2@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > Does anyone know why certain Hindu images of Gods and Goddess are so violent looking, and in some cases violent sounding and or violent acting per recorded doctrines? > > > > > > > > My take is that as soon as, or instantly so to speak that any one (whether they be human, deva, or of the Gods and Goddess's) engages in the consciousness of violence then one instantly falls into the lower astral realms or worlds because the Divine Dharma automatically and absolutely does not allow violence to exist in the higher heavenly worlds!! (or the worlds of the heavenly devas, the Gods and Goddess's, and also of the the human Masters and Saints that have attained the same) Thus how could the Gods or Goddess's engage in forms of violence and still remain in the Divine, non-violent consciousness? > > > > > > > > Further, with evil being automatically and completely blocked from access to certain heavenly worlds, ...how could ANY Divine Being use violence against violence or evil against evil while they are acting in the lesser worlds (where btw evil is not being completely or automatically blocked) and still maintain the Divine consciousness? > > > > > > > > Om > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
