Guest guest Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 This question is as old as Devi Herself (or maybe not that old)- but for me, I've been through some major downs in my life. I know all about the arguments of karma, soul patterns, past life lessons, etc. Not that it makes me feel any better, but I try to accept these ideas, just for sanity's sake. However, I was reading the other day about a two-year-old boy (he's 30 now), who was horribly disfigured in a freak accident. The thing is this- I know this may come across as a bit of a childish rant, but when you guys hear about things like this, do you ever question what kind of God/dess allows such horrible things to happen to her own children? Yeah, I've heard the whole destruction/creation are necessary, yin/yang. But to believe something like " Oh, a two-year-old deserved it because it's his karma " seems as cruel as the standard Christian explanation of " We suffer because we're all tainted with sin. " It's funny- because these questions aren't really answered in our Hindu teachings. There aren't even Hindu support groups to discuss these things, the way Christians and Jews have. One thing I have always admired about Hinduism is that it tells you that you create your life through your thoughts and actions. But I wonder- how true can that be if the Universe can kill or maim you the next day? For example,just for talking's sake, if I put a lot of focus into running the Olympics, and just before I run, I'm paralyzed by a freak accident, how can I trust that, yes, I do have a hand in creating my own reality? Anyway...sorry for the vent. I'm just curious as to what everyone's thoughts are. Has anyone ever suffered a test of faith like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 Things don't really necessarily happen to a person is because of something bad they did to " deserve " it in a previous life. Look at the great saints who have suffered greatly. Or look at the evil people who enjoy luxury and power. A few months ago, I experienced a rather serious injury that has seriously limited my ability to serve others and to perform my regular duties. But as I have slowly gone through a process of healing, I've seen that this injury has brought me a lot of spiritual, physical, and mental gifts that would have taken me longer to develop and appreciate had I continued along my normal course. So I'm grateful for the opportunity to learn and experience MA in this way, even though it is sometimes very painful and difficult. The truth is, sometimes bad things happen or good things happen that we can't explain, or that simply have no explanation. It can be the most mundane of things - for me, I pushed myself too hard, and I was injured. It is as simple as that. But I believe that once I did that, MA took the opportunity to teach me some additional helpful things. Some people may say that MA caused the injury, but I don't believe that. There is room for both views, certainly. We don't live in isolation, we live in a vasty complex, interconnected network of beings who each are living and working through their own karmas, each affecting countless other lives. Sometimes people create karmic debts to others, and this is still continuing. Sometimes interactions are the resolution of an ancient karmic debt. Sometimes people have horrific circumstances and situations that are inexplicable and no fault of their own, but are due to outside influences. This is not God/dess's " fault " any more than it is our own. That is a limited and limiting view that allows discrimination and abuse to flourish. God/dess is not outside of us, but within us. As it says in Chandogya Upanisad, " tat tvam asi... " " you are THAT. " It is not the things that happen to us but the way that we react to things and learn from them that is an expression of God/dess. It is difficult to develop an attitude that is compassionate to the suffering of others and offers help and looks for a means to end that suffering where possible, while also not becoming negatively attached to or perilously wound up in the cause or fruits of that suffering. We can't explain why bad things happen, but we have an opportunity to express God/dess's love and kindness through our own actions and attitudes, to overcome our tamasic fear and disgust and hatred, and cultivate sattvic love and compassion. Our duty is to alleviate suffering and care for our fellow beings. Neglecting that duty is a neglect and denial of our own divinity and abdication of responsibility. In my own life, the closer I get to MAA, the more I feel it is my responsibility to help others and let go of old anger and hurt. This is my view only, others may have other views. Jai MA Kamesvari -kulasundari Sri Kamakhya Mahavidya Mandir www.kamakhyamandir.org On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 6:36 PM, sd <salharmonica wrote: > > > This question is as old as Devi Herself (or maybe not that old)- but for > me, I've been through some major downs in my life. I know all about the > arguments of karma, soul patterns, past life lessons, etc. Not that it makes > me feel any better, but I try to accept these ideas, just for sanity's sake. > > > However, I was reading the other day about a two-year-old boy (he's 30 > now), who was horribly disfigured in a freak accident. The thing is this- I > know this may come across as a bit of a childish rant, but when you guys > hear about things like this, do you ever question what kind of God/dess > allows such horrible things to happen to her own children? Yeah, I've heard > the whole destruction/creation are necessary, yin/yang. But to believe > something like " Oh, a two-year-old deserved it because it's his karma " seems > as cruel as the standard Christian explanation of " We suffer because we're > all tainted with sin. " > > It's funny- because these questions aren't really answered in our Hindu > teachings. There aren't even Hindu support groups to discuss these things, > the way Christians and Jews have. > > One thing I have always admired about Hinduism is that it tells you that > you create your life through your thoughts and actions. But I wonder- how > true can that be if the Universe can kill or maim you the next day? For > example,just for talking's sake, if I put a lot of focus into running the > Olympics, and just before I run, I'm paralyzed by a freak accident, how can > I trust that, yes, I do have a hand in creating my own reality? > > Anyway...sorry for the vent. I'm just curious as to what everyone's > thoughts are. Has anyone ever suffered a test of faith like this? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 Namaskar, I happen to agree with Kulasundari Devi. In hope I do not repeat too much of what has been said, I have the following thoughts to add. First and foremost, I must say that I believe in karma - strongly. It is very much a concept ingrained into me. I believe what we give to the universe, it returns to us. One way or another, this will happen unless we take steps to redeem ourselves somehow in our own acts and thoughts. It is why I was taught to treat unto others like I wish to be treated. My mother raised me with that belief. Then life gets complicated. Sometimes, you have to end up doing something that inevitably harms another being. Like how in some cases, telling the truth can hurt someone's feelings. It hurts. Even some of us could feel the sting of an inherently virtuous concept. However, then when one thinks about it: what leads to the most harm in the long run? The temporary sting of truth, or the long-term effects of the destruction of a lie? So then one has to think about what one should do, when they must do this...or rather, what one must think. I believe there is an adage to which many of us can relate. " If one cannot avoid doing ill, at least try not to think ill. " Even though it can be hard, I try to do this, as well. And then we see others who suffer. Is it a product of their past lives or current lives? In truth, we have no way to know that. I look at situations like this in a multidimensional way. I think of these things under these lenses. One. The concept of free will is without a doubt something that exists. Regardless of how we are born, we have the choice on how to handle things. We all can choose to deal with what happens to us in this sense. Two. Paradoxically, free will has a price. Because everyone possesses free will, this means everyone can choose what to do with themselves and, sometimes unfortunately, other people. We cannot control what happens in this case because it is everyone else's free will in play. Three, because of the first and second concept, we must think about how we perceive what has happened. How we are going to manage it. This becomes our free will in play. Essentially, there is no way saying what happened to the child is something he deserves - especially if someone else has done this unto him. Only God/dess would know this. What we can say, though, is whether this child deals with what has happened to him and tries to make the best of his life despite what has happened to him. Furthermore, it would also be doing ill unto others to say they deserve suffering. Yes, we can say one person did something and it caused a reaction because they did that something. However, to revel in the suffering, to encourage escalating it, even if you are not the direct instigator of it, is in a sense still contributing to one's own karma. Thoughts and actions are related and are both what karma accounts for in the grand scheme of things. We are mortal. We are not perfect. And we must realize this is the same situation every human being goes through. Evil only comes when we see the desire to stratify humans and to treat them lesser than us. Again, though, we are human and we will likely struggle even with that. Why do the paranoid suffer? (I speak for one of my worse struggles here.) Perhaps it is because they think the worse of things and thus those worse things might even become a reality quickly. In kind, a good child who is disfigured might not even see himself as suffering. This child might even think nothing of his own hardships and could as well, for all we know, be near the brink of moksha and what we see is just the surface. Devi knows. The least I would want to convey, despite my long rambling, is that we cannot control what others do or what happens to them. However, we can control how we deal with it and if we cannot do this so easily, we can try to tell ourselves to not think ill of another human being. Jai Ma! Namaste. Aum Shanthi. Sincerely, Arya/Christina Postscript: Unfortunately, I think the trend you described about Hindus not having major discussion groups actually holds true in any place where a religion and/or culture is dominant. Actually, to re-iterate, I would say such groups likely exist but are just not as obvious in a culture where the religion is dominant. In the United States, you only get to see discussion on things regarding Christianity and Judaism in scholarly circles. On the rare occasion you might have an open minded priest who can answer some of those hard questions people like to ask, but the general trend is that people still take things for granted. It is easy to take something for granted if you were raised in the system. It is why outsiders of any social group see things that insiders do not, and vice versa. On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 9:12 PM, Kulasundari Devi <sundari > wrote: > Things don't really necessarily happen to a person is because of something > bad they did to " deserve " it in a previous life. Look at the great saints > who have suffered greatly. Or look at the evil people who enjoy luxury and > power. > > A few months ago, I experienced a rather serious injury that has seriously > limited my ability to serve others and to perform my regular duties. But as > I have slowly gone through a process of healing, I've seen that this injury > has brought me a lot of spiritual, physical, and mental gifts that would > have taken me longer to develop and appreciate had I continued along my > normal course. So I'm grateful for the opportunity to learn and experience > MA in this way, even though it is sometimes very painful and difficult. > > The truth is, sometimes bad things happen or good things happen that we > can't explain, or that simply have no explanation. It can be the most > mundane of things - for me, I pushed myself too hard, and I was injured. It > is as simple as that. But I believe that once I did that, MA took the > opportunity to teach me some additional helpful things. Some people may say > that MA caused the injury, but I don't believe that. There is room for both > views, certainly. > > We don't live in isolation, we live in a vasty complex, interconnected > network of beings who each are living and working through their own karmas, > each affecting countless other lives. Sometimes people create karmic debts > to others, and this is still continuing. Sometimes interactions are the > resolution of an ancient karmic debt. Sometimes people have horrific > circumstances and situations that are inexplicable and no fault of their > own, but are due to outside influences. This is not God/dess's " fault " any > more than it is our own. That is a limited and limiting view that allows > discrimination and abuse to flourish. > > God/dess is not outside of us, but within us. As it says in Chandogya > Upanisad, " tat tvam asi... " " you are THAT. " It is not the things that > happen > to us but the way that we react to things and learn from them that is an > expression of God/dess. It is difficult to develop an attitude that is > compassionate to the suffering of others and offers help and looks for a > means to end that suffering where possible, while also not becoming > negatively attached to or perilously wound up in the cause or fruits of > that > suffering. We can't explain why bad things happen, but we have an > opportunity to express God/dess's love and kindness through our own actions > and attitudes, to overcome our tamasic fear and disgust and hatred, and > cultivate sattvic love and compassion. Our duty is to alleviate suffering > and care for our fellow beings. Neglecting that duty is a neglect and > denial > of our own divinity and abdication of responsibility. In my own life, the > closer I get to MAA, the more I feel it is my responsibility to help others > and let go of old anger and hurt. > > This is my view only, others may have other views. > > Jai MA Kamesvari > -kulasundari > > Sri Kamakhya Mahavidya Mandir > www.kamakhyamandir.org > > > On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 6:36 PM, sd <salharmonica wrote: > > > > > > > This question is as old as Devi Herself (or maybe not that old)- but for > > me, I've been through some major downs in my life. I know all about the > > arguments of karma, soul patterns, past life lessons, etc. Not that it > makes > > me feel any better, but I try to accept these ideas, just for sanity's > sake. > > > > > > However, I was reading the other day about a two-year-old boy (he's 30 > > now), who was horribly disfigured in a freak accident. The thing is this- > I > > know this may come across as a bit of a childish rant, but when you guys > > hear about things like this, do you ever question what kind of God/dess > > allows such horrible things to happen to her own children? Yeah, I've > heard > > the whole destruction/creation are necessary, yin/yang. But to believe > > something like " Oh, a two-year-old deserved it because it's his karma " > seems > > as cruel as the standard Christian explanation of " We suffer because > we're > > all tainted with sin. " > > > > It's funny- because these questions aren't really answered in our Hindu > > teachings. There aren't even Hindu support groups to discuss these > things, > > the way Christians and Jews have. > > > > One thing I have always admired about Hinduism is that it tells you that > > you create your life through your thoughts and actions. But I wonder- how > > true can that be if the Universe can kill or maim you the next day? For > > example,just for talking's sake, if I put a lot of focus into running the > > Olympics, and just before I run, I'm paralyzed by a freak accident, how > can > > I trust that, yes, I do have a hand in creating my own reality? > > > > Anyway...sorry for the vent. I'm just curious as to what everyone's > > thoughts are. Has anyone ever suffered a test of faith like this? > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 I take it like this. I don't know if this is representative for all branches of hindusim. It is basically bhagavad-gita philosophy. We are actually eternal, are never born, never die. So every life here, human or otherwise, is not really real, it is more like a game, pastime, lila. And just as in games we play in this life, there are winners and loosers. In some online computer games, people spend time killing each other in various way. But since they are games, and it is really not real, it is not serious. God does not enter a computer game and stop people from killing each other. If we play such a game, we do it because we want it, and the risk of getting killed, or wounded, is a calculated risk. We take that calculated risk for the thrill of hurting or killing others. So if we loose in the game of life, it is tough, but we entered the game on our own free will and we knew the risk. We will restart the game anew in the next life. Therefore god, or gods does not interfere. In this game there are rules, though. Those rules are the rules of karma. If you do this, that happens, and so on. This is a cruel world. We can just lower our eyes to the world of the jungle of the grass under our feet, and we see a constant bloody cruel battle for survival. We are in the same battle. The solution to this game is to get out of it. Get out of the illusion of it being a nice game, and see things for what they really are. Then don't play again. It is not in our powers to change the rules of the game, but we can decide to not participate. Prishni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 ur last sentence - how can we decide to participate or not Sriram Medepalli --- On Mon, 5/4/10, Prisni <karolina.lindqvist wrote: Prisni <karolina.lindqvist Re: test of faith... Monday, 5 April, 2010, 11:34 AM  I take it like this. I don't know if this is representative for all branches of hindusim. It is basically bhagavad-gita philosophy. We are actually eternal, are never born, never die. So every life here, human or otherwise, is not really real, it is more like a game, pastime, lila. And just as in games we play in this life, there are winners and loosers. In some online computer games, people spend time killing each other in various way. But since they are games, and it is really not real, it is not serious. God does not enter a computer game and stop people from killing each other. If we play such a game, we do it because we want it, and the risk of getting killed, or wounded, is a calculated risk. We take that calculated risk for the thrill of hurting or killing others. So if we loose in the game of life, it is tough, but we entered the game on our own free will and we knew the risk. We will restart the game anew in the next life. Therefore god, or gods does not interfere. In this game there are rules, though. Those rules are the rules of karma. If you do this, that happens, and so on. This is a cruel world. We can just lower our eyes to the world of the jungle of the grass under our feet, and we see a constant bloody cruel battle for survival. We are in the same battle. The solution to this game is to get out of it. Get out of the illusion of it being a nice game, and see things for what they really are. Then don't play again. It is not in our powers to change the rules of the game, but we can decide to not participate. Prishni The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. http://in./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 Please read ...http://www.arshavidya.org/teachers/KarmaYoga.pdf There are discussion groups everywhere . You have to pick one that suits you. Don't know where you live, but here is another link for such discussion groups  http://avgsatsang.org/satsang_groups2.html This is the group that I know, there are lots of other groups too that you can choose. Below is a highlight of the pdf. Hope this helps. " Fairness of Karma Question Is the Law of Karma fair? Answer Yes, it is fair. Karma is the law of cause and effect, and the effect is always in keeping in with the cause. However, we feel very often, that we are not rewarded in proportion to our efforts. Sometimes we also feel that injustice is done to us - the world is not fair to us; my boss is not fair to us; my spouse is not fair to us - so many people are not fair to us! We do not know what is the cause of what we are experiencing right now. Let me dwell upon this point a little because this is a frequently asked question. “Look at this fellow, Swamiji. He has not done anything but he got a promotion. He is dishonest but he is rising up.†We do not know whether the rising of this person is due to dishonesty or due to something else. Let me give you an example, an old-fashioned example. Imagine a farmer raising different crops in different seasons. In the monsoon he grows rice and there is a harvest of rice. He plants wheat in the winter and there is a harvest of wheat. After that he plants millet and there is a harvest of millet. Imagine that he has a big storage bin. As each harvest comes in, he dumps the grain in the bin. After the monsoon harvest, he dumps rice in there. Then after the next harvest, he dumps wheat into the bin. After the final harvest, he dumps millet in it. At the bottom, there is an opening from where he draws his grain. Now, what we find him doing is that he is dumping millet on top. But, wait a minute—what is this? When he opens the bin at the bottom, he gets rice! I see him putting in millet and I see him getting out rice. It doesn’t seem to be rational, is it not? But he gets rice because that is what he had put in earlier. And a day will come when he will get his millet too. Similarly, we may find somebody progressing at this time. It is quite possible that this progress is due to the result of some actions he may have done in the past. And whatever the person is doing now, he is surely accountable for that as well. We do not say that one should be punished, but the idea is that one is accountable for what one does. www.AVGsatsang.org 15 Good begets good and evil begets evil. This is the law and that is what we call the law of karma, the law of cause and effect. There is nothing mysterious about this law. It is simply the law of cause and effect that science explains to us, except that science is confined to what we call the physical world. The law of karma is a moral law, which takes into account not only the physical reality, but the emotional, intellectual, and moral realities as well. In karma, every input is taken into account. But as I say, there is fairness. We may not be able to perceive that fairness because our knowledge is limited. We can either see only in terms of the present time, or we know of a certain span of time. But we should know that my existence did not begin with this birth. It has been there from time immemorial. We should also know that my existence is not going to come to an end with death, but is surely going to continue for long beyond. And, therefore, there will be evenness in course of time. In a lifespan of fifty years or a hundred years, we may feel that fairness is not evident. But think of the span of a thousand years, two thousand years, or even five thousand years. What is a hundred years or even a few hundred years in the grand scheme of things? Very little. For us, they are very long periods of time, but as far as the universe is concerned, it is very little. When you have the total view, you find that things are in order. From an individual point of view, we may find that things are not all right. When there is a painting in front of me and I go very close to it and peer at it through a magnifying glass, I only see blobs! Only when I step back and have an overall view can I see the beauty and the harmony in the painting. Similarly, in life, only when we have a larger view can we see the order. When we have a restricted view, there appears to be disorder. There may be a local disorder, but it is within the scope of the larger order. This is how fairness has to be understood. If fairness were not there, the world could not survive. The very fact that the world survives means that there is fairness, except that fairness may take a thousand years or perhaps a few thousand years, for things to work themselves out. We can see how history actually illustrates this fact. We find that what was done five hundred years ago is repaid now, and what is done now may be repaid later on. But ultimately everything evens out. " --- On Mon, 4/5/10, sd <salharmonica wrote: I know all about the arguments of karma, soul patterns, past life lessons, etc. Not that it makes me feel any better, but I try to accept these ideas, just for sanity's sake. [....] do you ever question what kind of God/dess allows such horrible things to happen to her own children? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 Thanks everybody for your thoughts- especially Amaya, and Kalasundari.Very well-thought out. I guess, for me, like I said, I always wanted to see God/dess as a protector- and when I see things like this happen, I just wonder about the whole protection thing. It's very likely that I'm seeing the whole concept of God/dess in a limited way- I guess for me, it's very easy for me to get carried away in negativity when seeing/facing disaster (like coming down with chicken pox just before an interview for my dream job, the first interview I've had in a year- that's what initially triggered all this, I guess). I don't know- I guess my main concern was that I wanted to to believe so badly that each person creates his or her own reality with thoughts, actions, and I wonder how that can be true if Universal forces can be capricious. BTW- Amaya, I think it was- I really like your explanation about the religious support groups. Very interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 I have read your article with interest. Can we conclude that Newtons third law was known to our ancestors and they have applied in life as philosophy? The sufferings which one goes through make them feel averse to god no matter however philosophy we instill Sriram Medepalli --- On Mon, 5/4/10, Priya Babu <sripriyasivanathbabu wrote: Please read ...http://www.arshavid ya.org/teachers/ KarmaYoga. pdf There are discussion groups everywhere . You have to pick one that suits you. Don't know where you live, but here is another link for such discussion groups  http://avgsatsang. org/satsang_ groups2.html " Fairness of Karma Question Is the Law of Karma fair? Answer Yes, it is fair. Karma is the law of cause and effect, and the effect is always in keeping in with the cause. However, we feel very often, that we are not rewarded in proportion to our efforts. Sometimes we also feel that injustice is done to us - the world is not fair to us; my boss is not fair to us; my spouse is not fair to us - so many people are not fair to us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 < The sufferings which one goes through make them feel averse to god no matter however philosophy we instill> True, The only solution to redeem oneself is Right Knowledge (Gnana). Priya ________________________________ sriram medepalli <dikki52 Mon, April 5, 2010 12:09:31 PM Re: test of faith... I have read your article with interest. Can we conclude that Newtons third law was known to our ancestors and they have applied in life as philosophy? The sufferings which one goes through make them feel averse to god no matter however philosophy we instill Sriram Medepalli --- On Mon, 5/4/10, Priya Babu <sripriyasivanathbab u wrote: Please read ...http://www.arshavid ya.org/teachers/ KarmaYoga. pdf There are discussion groups everywhere . You have to pick one that suits you. Don't know where you live, but here is another link for such discussion groups http://avgsatsang. org/satsang_ groups2.html " Fairness of Karma Question Is the Law of Karma fair? Answer Yes, it is fair. Karma is the law of cause and effect, and the effect is always in keeping in with the cause. However, we feel very often, that we are not rewarded in proportion to our efforts. Sometimes we also feel that injustice is done to us - the world is not fair to us; my boss is not fair to us; my spouse is not fair to us - so many people are not fair to us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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