Nityananda [corrected and re-posted]

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your comments Max:

 

I always look forward to your posts. You make an interesting point about

Caldwell. I was just brooding over another piece of, to be blunt, sadistic

misogyny (not mention right-wing nationalism, racism, etc etc) directed against

her -- by none other than our pal, Mr. Malhotra. Here she tries to extend an

olive branch and open a dialogue (in part regarding the very same article that

Kulasundari linked) with him, and he strips apart her note and twists each and

every word to mean nearly the opposite of her intent:

 

http://rajivmalhotra.sulekha.com/blog/post/2002/10/the-insider-outsider-academic\

-game.htm

 

*** J. Radhakrishnan is quite right: siddhis are not everything. An enlightened

person does not take advantage of other human beings. ***

 

This applies not only to sexual abuse, by the way. Siddhi abuse is broader than

that. I know, for example, of a self-professed siddha and Tantric guru who ran

what is essentially a Ponzi scheme bilking elderly people in urban North India

of their life savings. I won't get into the details, but it is very ugly -- he

essentially lends their money back to them piecemeal, scolding them like

children if they complain and blatantly controlling their behavior, apparently

using the vashikaran siddhi. (We are trying hard to fight him by the way, and

would welcome any prayers and support from SS members.)

 

*** There are in fact Asian voices which have raised these issues, including

Gayatri Spivak who goes into the issue of instrumentalizing young women, often

of lower classes, for the benefit of male Tantriks, with some mordant remarks

about such usage, and examples from Tantric literature of the more patriarchal

stripe. ***

 

I like Spivak a lot; can you refer me to the article you're citing?

 

*** I would like to think that real Kaula practice is very much otherwise, not

based on extreme power imbalances of privileged male gurus and young, pretty,

inexperienced female devotees [...] I'd like to believe that real Tantrik

practice is based on adoring Shakti, not attempting to colonize or vampirize her

through the body of (only) a beautiful young woman. [...] Rather I think genuine

Kaula practice would be based on spiritual elevation of both partners [...] ***

 

That's the huge paradox looming at the center of left-handed Tantra for sure;

you may have already read it, but in case you have not, I'd refer you to Hugh

Urban's new (2010) book, " The Power of Tantra " (I.B. Tauris, London) which

presents one of the most thoughtful, self-aware, even-handed treatments of these

issues I've ever seen. There's even a chapter called, " What About the Woman?

Gender Politics and the Interpretation of Women in Tantra. " I think you'd like

it; the whole book is marvelous.

 

Once again, thanks for your input.

 

Best regards

 

DB

 

, Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote:

>

> >Upon reflection, " consent " does become a very slippery issue indeed

> >when you are talking about charismatic individuals like this,

> >especially if they are using perceived spiritual authority to sway

> >the " consenter's " judgment.

>

> I'd say it's more than perceived, it is the very real, colossal

> prestige of the Guru that is operating here. I see it still at work

> in Caldwell's essay. She recognizes there is a problem, yet still

> wants to have it both ways, and quotes more from those who thought it

> was all a good thing, hardly anything from those who were harmed. I

> knew women who were involved in this community, and heard from them

> the horror and sense of betrayal that resulted from M's actions.

>

> J. Radhakrishnan is quite right: siddhis are not everything. An

> enlightened person does not take advantage of other human beings. I

> think Caldwell is mistaken in equating any critique of such corrupt

> gurudom with a Western perspective. There are in fact Asian voices

> which have raised these issues, including Gayatri Spivak who goes

> into the issue of instrumentalizing young women, often of lower

> classes, for the benefit of male Tantriks, with some mordant remarks

> about such usage, and examples from Tantric literature of the more

> patriarchal stripe.

>

> I would like to think that real Kaula practice is very much

> otherwise, not based on extreme power imbalances of privileged male

> gurus and young, pretty, inexperienced female devotees flattered by

> the attention they are getting, and unaware of the price they may

> pay, and enjoined to secrecy that injures them in the long run, in

> order to protect the guru's prestige. I'd like to believe that real

> Tantrik practice is based on adoring Shakti, not attempting to

> colonize or vampirize her through the body of (only) a beautiful

> young woman. That it would go far beyond the bondage of toxic social

> norms, that its practice would not be entangled with the larger

> cultural pattern of older man with authority, young woman who is

> subordinate to him. Or as some scriptures suggest, even purchased or

> otherwise acquired for that role.

>

> Rather I think genuine Kaula practice would be based on spiritual

> elevation of both partners, throwing off the samskaras of gender

> inequality, and reaching to experience truth beyond the disfunctional

> patterns we know all too well.

>

> Max

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

Sigh. Rajiv Malhotra is so convinced of his own righteousness. Thank you,

DB, for Hugh Urban's new book. I hope to be able to read it soon!

 

-Santo

aum shanti shanti shantih.

" The world is like the impression left by the telling of a story. " - from

the Yoga VÄsiṣṭha

 

 

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 8:33 PM, DB <devi_bhakta wrote:

 

>

>

> Thanks for your comments Max:

>

> I always look forward to your posts. You make an interesting point about

> Caldwell. I was just brooding over another piece of, to be blunt, sadistic

> misogyny (not mention right-wing nationalism, racism, etc etc) directed

> against her -- by none other than our pal, Mr. Malhotra. Here she tries to

> extend an olive branch and open a dialogue (in part regarding the very same

> article that Kulasundari linked) with him, and he strips apart her note and

> twists each and every word to mean nearly the opposite of her intent:

>

>

>

http://rajivmalhotra.sulekha.com/blog/post/2002/10/the-insider-outsider-academic\

-game.htm

>

> *** J. Radhakrishnan is quite right: siddhis are not everything. An

> enlightened person does not take advantage of other human beings. ***

>

> This applies not only to sexual abuse, by the way. Siddhi abuse is broader

> than that. I know, for example, of a self-professed siddha and Tantric guru

> who ran what is essentially a Ponzi scheme bilking elderly people in urban

> North India of their life savings. I won't get into the details, but it is

> very ugly -- he essentially lends their money back to them piecemeal,

> scolding them like children if they complain and blatantly controlling their

> behavior, apparently using the vashikaran siddhi. (We are trying hard to

> fight him by the way, and would welcome any prayers and support from SS

> members.)

>

> *** There are in fact Asian voices which have raised these issues,

> including Gayatri Spivak who goes into the issue of instrumentalizing young

> women, often of lower classes, for the benefit of male Tantriks, with some

> mordant remarks about such usage, and examples from Tantric literature of

> the more patriarchal stripe. ***

>

> I like Spivak a lot; can you refer me to the article you're citing?

>

> *** I would like to think that real Kaula practice is very much otherwise,

> not based on extreme power imbalances of privileged male gurus and young,

> pretty, inexperienced female devotees [...] I'd like to believe that real

> Tantrik practice is based on adoring Shakti, not attempting to colonize or

> vampirize her through the body of (only) a beautiful young woman. [...]

> Rather I think genuine Kaula practice would be based on spiritual elevation

> of both partners [...] ***

>

> That's the huge paradox looming at the center of left-handed Tantra for

> sure; you may have already read it, but in case you have not, I'd refer you

> to Hugh Urban's new (2010) book, " The Power of Tantra " (I.B. Tauris, London)

> which presents one of the most thoughtful, self-aware, even-handed

> treatments of these issues I've ever seen. There's even a chapter called,

> " What About the Woman? Gender Politics and the Interpretation of Women in

> Tantra. " I think you'd like it; the whole book is marvelous.

>

> Once again, thanks for your input.

>

> Best regards

>

> DB

>

> <%40>,

> Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote:

> >

> > >Upon reflection, " consent " does become a very slippery issue indeed

> > >when you are talking about charismatic individuals like this,

> > >especially if they are using perceived spiritual authority to sway

> > >the " consenter's " judgment.

> >

> > I'd say it's more than perceived, it is the very real, colossal

> > prestige of the Guru that is operating here. I see it still at work

> > in Caldwell's essay. She recognizes there is a problem, yet still

> > wants to have it both ways, and quotes more from those who thought it

> > was all a good thing, hardly anything from those who were harmed. I

> > knew women who were involved in this community, and heard from them

> > the horror and sense of betrayal that resulted from M's actions.

> >

> > J. Radhakrishnan is quite right: siddhis are not everything. An

> > enlightened person does not take advantage of other human beings. I

> > think Caldwell is mistaken in equating any critique of such corrupt

> > gurudom with a Western perspective. There are in fact Asian voices

> > which have raised these issues, including Gayatri Spivak who goes

> > into the issue of instrumentalizing young women, often of lower

> > classes, for the benefit of male Tantriks, with some mordant remarks

> > about such usage, and examples from Tantric literature of the more

> > patriarchal stripe.

> >

> > I would like to think that real Kaula practice is very much

> > otherwise, not based on extreme power imbalances of privileged male

> > gurus and young, pretty, inexperienced female devotees flattered by

> > the attention they are getting, and unaware of the price they may

> > pay, and enjoined to secrecy that injures them in the long run, in

> > order to protect the guru's prestige. I'd like to believe that real

> > Tantrik practice is based on adoring Shakti, not attempting to

> > colonize or vampirize her through the body of (only) a beautiful

> > young woman. That it would go far beyond the bondage of toxic social

> > norms, that its practice would not be entangled with the larger

> > cultural pattern of older man with authority, young woman who is

> > subordinate to him. Or as some scriptures suggest, even purchased or

> > otherwise acquired for that role.

> >

> > Rather I think genuine Kaula practice would be based on spiritual

> > elevation of both partners, throwing off the samskaras of gender

> > inequality, and reaching to experience truth beyond the disfunctional

> > patterns we know all too well.

> >

> > Max

> >

>

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>our pal, Mr. Malhotra

 

Oooh! say no more!

 

>This applies not only to sexual abuse, by the way.

 

Absolutely in agreement.

 

>I like Spivak a lot; can you refer me to the article you're citing?

 

If i'm not mistaken, she talks about this in

 

Gayatri Chakravorty Spivak, " Moving Devi " in Cultural Critique, No.

47. (Winter, 2001), pp. 120-163

 

Don't have time to verify the cite but i think that's the one.

 

 

> Hugh Urban's new (2010) book, " The Power of Tantra " (I.B. Tauris,

>London) which presents one of the most thoughtful, self-aware,

>even-handed treatments of these issues

 

Yet another title to add to my pile!

 

all blessings,

 

Max