Guest guest Report post Posted March 19, 2010 Such a lot of words, this article, and not once does he address the power imbalance that such men manipulate, nor the harm that they do to naive female devotees who are convinced that whatever the guru goes is all right-- at least until they are left hanging, isolated with their pain and confusion. Where are the safeguards to protect these children of the Mother who are seeking, who are injured in the thousands? This has happened so many times, not just in Hindu contexts but also in Buddhist and others. The young women suffer in silence, thinking something is wrong with them, while those in the know make excuses, saying this is a special form of grace, etc., and it continues for years, until the lid is blown off --off that particular guru's secret indulgences, while publicly presenting a face of brahmacharya. Then it begins again, over and over. It is not the scandal that is the problem, it is the abuse. What a travesty of dharma. Max > do you all think it would be easier to control these scandals in >the United States if (1) people were more open about sex as a part >of a spiritual tradition and (2) everyone that were to engage in >such acts were asked to sign a waiver (or a series of them) stating >their intention? If people believed sex was really not taboo, why >not be upfront with it and sign a consent agreement in front of >witnesses? It seems to me that if people cannot be upfront about >their actions that it is coming out of the lower manifestation of >ego and not as a way to actually support dharma. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 19, 2010 It seems to me that Nithyananda should spend some time contemplating whether sannyas is his calling. One should only really pursue that path if it is impossible for one to follow any other. He may do better as a householder. But then that comes with far less fame and fortune. There is an excellent article on the issues you talk about, Max: http://www.leavingsiddhayoga.net/caldwell.sarah.pdf -kulasundari On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote: > > > Such a lot of words, this article, and not once does he address the > power imbalance that such men manipulate, nor the harm that they do > to naive female devotees who are convinced that whatever the guru > goes is all right-- at least until they are left hanging, isolated > with their pain and confusion. Where are the safeguards to protect > these children of the Mother who are seeking, who are injured in the > thousands? This has happened so many times, not just in Hindu > contexts but also in Buddhist and others. The young women suffer in > silence, thinking something is wrong with them, while those in the > know make excuses, saying this is a special form of grace, etc., and > it continues for years, until the lid is blown off --off that > particular guru's secret indulgences, while publicly presenting a > face of brahmacharya. Then it begins again, over and over. > > It is not the scandal that is the problem, it is the abuse. What a > travesty of dharma. > > Max > > > do you all think it would be easier to control these scandals in > >the United States if (1) people were more open about sex as a part > >of a spiritual tradition and (2) everyone that were to engage in > >such acts were asked to sign a waiver (or a series of them) stating > >their intention? If people believed sex was really not taboo, why > >not be upfront with it and sign a consent agreement in front of > >witnesses? It seems to me that if people cannot be upfront about > >their actions that it is coming out of the lower manifestation of > >ego and not as a way to actually support dharma. > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 19, 2010 Based on that video footage, I think his only sin (if you could call it that) was that he is lame in bed! Which is probably why she pops him a tab of ecstasy or viagra or whatever. As a tantric adept he should be better able to please his consort, no? haha. This is really what the women are waiting for someone that can talk, has energy, and is good in bed. Unfortunately, bathing statues in milk won't teach you these skills. ; ) Sorry for the blashpemy, but hey its a big universe out there. - " Kulasundari Devi " <sundari Thursday, March 18, 2010 7:17 PM Re: Re: Nityananda It seems to me that Nithyananda should spend some time contemplating whether sannyas is his calling. One should only really pursue that path if it is impossible for one to follow any other. He may do better as a householder. But then that comes with far less fame and fortune. There is an excellent article on the issues you talk about, Max: http://www.leavingsiddhayoga.net/caldwell.sarah.pdf -kulasundari On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote: > > > Such a lot of words, this article, and not once does he address the > power imbalance that such men manipulate, nor the harm that they do > to naive female devotees who are convinced that whatever the guru > goes is all right-- at least until they are left hanging, isolated > with their pain and confusion. Where are the safeguards to protect > these children of the Mother who are seeking, who are injured in the > thousands? This has happened so many times, not just in Hindu > contexts but also in Buddhist and others. The young women suffer in > silence, thinking something is wrong with them, while those in the > know make excuses, saying this is a special form of grace, etc., and > it continues for years, until the lid is blown off --off that > particular guru's secret indulgences, while publicly presenting a > face of brahmacharya. Then it begins again, over and over. > > It is not the scandal that is the problem, it is the abuse. What a > travesty of dharma. > > Max > > > do you all think it would be easier to control these scandals in > >the United States if (1) people were more open about sex as a part > >of a spiritual tradition and (2) everyone that were to engage in > >such acts were asked to sign a waiver (or a series of them) stating > >their intention? If people believed sex was really not taboo, why > >not be upfront with it and sign a consent agreement in front of > >witnesses? It seems to me that if people cannot be upfront about > >their actions that it is coming out of the lower manifestation of > >ego and not as a way to actually support dharma. > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 19, 2010 Thank you, Max and Kulasundari: I did not read your posts until after I made mine; I wish I had. You both make excellent points. I obviously agree with Max's observation about " so many words " in Malhotra's article and hope that I did not underplay the women's role by characterising the sex as being between consenting adults, and moving on to the " branding " issues. Upon reflection, " consent " does become a very slippery issue indeed when you are talking about charismatic individuals like this, especially if they are using perceived spiritual authority to sway the " consenter's " judgment. I have printed out the article Kulasundari linked, and I look forward to reading it. DB , Kulasundari Devi <sundari wrote: > > It seems to me that Nithyananda should spend some time contemplating whether > sannyas is his calling. One should only really pursue that path if it is > impossible for one to follow any other. He may do better as a householder. > But then that comes with far less fame and fortune. > > There is an excellent article on the issues you talk about, Max: > > http://www.leavingsiddhayoga.net/caldwell.sarah.pdf > > > -kulasundari > > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote: > > > > > > > Such a lot of words, this article, and not once does he address the > > power imbalance that such men manipulate, nor the harm that they do > > to naive female devotees who are convinced that whatever the guru > > goes is all right-- at least until they are left hanging, isolated > > with their pain and confusion. Where are the safeguards to protect > > these children of the Mother who are seeking, who are injured in the > > thousands? This has happened so many times, not just in Hindu > > contexts but also in Buddhist and others. The young women suffer in > > silence, thinking something is wrong with them, while those in the > > know make excuses, saying this is a special form of grace, etc., and > > it continues for years, until the lid is blown off --off that > > particular guru's secret indulgences, while publicly presenting a > > face of brahmacharya. Then it begins again, over and over. > > > > It is not the scandal that is the problem, it is the abuse. What a > > travesty of dharma. > > > > Max > > > > > do you all think it would be easier to control these scandals in > > >the United States if (1) people were more open about sex as a part > > >of a spiritual tradition and (2) everyone that were to engage in > > >such acts were asked to sign a waiver (or a series of them) stating > > >their intention? If people believed sex was really not taboo, why > > >not be upfront with it and sign a consent agreement in front of > > >witnesses? It seems to me that if people cannot be upfront about > > >their actions that it is coming out of the lower manifestation of > > >ego and not as a way to actually support dharma. > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 19, 2010 >Upon reflection, " consent " does become a very slippery issue indeed >when you are talking about charismatic individuals like this, >especially if they are using perceived spiritual authority to sway >the " consenter's " judgment. I'd say it's more than perceived, it is the very real, colossal prestige of the Guru that is operating here. I see it still at work in Caldwell's essay. She recognizes there is a problem, yet still wants to have it both ways, and quotes more from those who thought it was all a good thing, hardly anything from those who were harmed. I knew women who were involved in this community, and heard from them the horror and sense of betrayal that resulted from M's actions. J. Radhakrishnan is quite right: siddhis are not everything. An enlightened person does not take advantage of other human beings. I think Caldwell is mistaken in equating any critique of such corrupt gurudom with a Western perspective. There are in fact Asian voices which have raised these issues, including Gayatri Spivak who goes into the issue of instrumentalizing young women, often of lower classes, for the benefit of male Tantriks, with some mordant remarks about such usage, and examples from Tantric literature of the more patriarchal stripe. I would like to think that real Kaula practice is very much otherwise, not based on extreme power imbalances of privileged male gurus and young, pretty, inexperienced female devotees flattered by the attention they are getting, and unaware of the price they may pay, and enjoined to secrecy that injures them in the long run, in order to protect the guru's prestige. I'd like to believe that real Tantrik practice is based on adoring Shakti, not attempting to colonize or vampirize her through the body of (only) a beautiful young woman. That it would go far beyond the bondage of toxic social norms, that its practice would not be entangled with the larger cultural pattern of older man with authority, young woman who is subordinate to him. Or as some scriptures suggest, even purchased or otherwise acquired for that role. Rather I think genuine Kaula practice would be based on spiritual elevation of both partners, throwing off the samskaras of gender inequality, and reaching to experience truth beyond the disfunctional patterns we know all too well. Max Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2010 Namaste: I'm interested in hearing this great conspiracy, but I doubt it's anything stunningly new. Throughout history, people with power have used it to take advantage of those without, and sadly that included folks with spiritual and mental powers as well. Tie in the imbalances that exist between the role of the genders and sexuality in our culture, and it will always yield a nasty salacious mix. I'm sure Swami Nityananda's tale intersects with church movements and irked ex-devotees, but that too isn't very new. The Abrahamic monotheists have been dead set on interfering with our faith for centuries now. In any case, I wish all involved peace, and perhaps folks who are not ready to become Brahmachari won't actually join monastic orders? Seriously, our Dharma has ways for everyone to approach the Divine. and we don't force our clergy to become celibate like the Catholics experiencing a truly horrific child sexual abuse scandal and institutional coverup. Jai Maa. -Santo aum shanti shanti shantih. " The world is like the impression left by the telling of a story. " - from the Yoga VÄsiá¹£á¹ha On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 8:14 AM, Abhimanyu Giri <abhipreet wrote: > > > I am sorry to say that none of you know the great conspiracy behind this > whole episode ! if anyone is interested to know about it i will post it in > my next mail. > > > On 19 March 2010 05:38, Max Dashu <maxdashu <maxdashu%40lmi.net>> > wrote: > > > > > > Such a lot of words, this article, and not once does he address the > power imbalance that such men manipulate, nor the harm that they do > to naive female devotees [....] > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
