Barack Obama or John McCain: last thoughts

November 2, 2008

Dear friends,

On SAMVA there have been some exchanges on the likely outcome of the Presidential election based on the information of the charts of the respective candidates as well as what is seen in the SAMVA USA chart Perpetual Union. At the same time, it is now well known that the polls ALL show Obama leading McCain both in the popular and electoral vote, suggesting he is a 'shoe in' to be elected as the next President of the USA. Yet, the astrological evidence is not as clear cut. Either this is because some last mintue change of view is likely or that there is unresolved uncertainty about the birth times of the two candidates.

It has not helped matters that the birth times of the candidates have been unkown and for the longest time been a guessing game for astrologers. During the summer of 2008, the earlier assumptions about birth times needed to be revised, in both cases from morning to evening times, due to the appearance of birth certificates. Even with new birth times emerging, some people have questioned their validity. Some have suggested e.g. John McCain was born somewhere else in Panama and others that Obama was in fact not born in Hawaii, but in Kenya. Such doubts could be politically motivated, to suggest the candidates are in fact not natural born citizens, which is necessary to run for this office. If we ingore this and assume the birth certificates are authentic and broadly accurate, we at least have some information to go on. Even then, the standard rectification work involving accurate

predictions is need to resolve remaining doubts about the exact rising degree. Given this state of affairs it is not easy to make a prediction on the basis of their charts, as there is still uncertainty about the true rising degree, and it can matter if it is correct or not.

We have also looked at the SAMVA USA chart for clues. There we see tremendous upset over the outcome and possible violence afterwards. Even there, the outcome could be either way. Such a scenario could develop because Obama wins or McCain wins. Let's first look at the more likely outcome, that Obama's wins. In this case we can interpret the SAMVA USA chart as suggesting that some white racist people will become furiously angry that a black man has been elected president and will resort to acts of violence to protest that. Another scenario involves the outside chance at present that McCain wins. For this to happen, many people would need to change their minds in the polls or for undecideds to massively vote for McCain. Such an outcmoe would likely make some young Obama supporters, who think the country desperately needs a change, would become furiously angry. Resorting to violence could also result

from that as the news story about Erika Young suggested and was typical of the mindeset of Obama associate William Ayers in the late 1960s.

In short, the SAMVA USA chart by itself doesn't help us very much in making the prediction. It mostly helps us see that the election will likelly be followed by upset to the communal harmony and for acts of violence to occur from the middle of November. If we look at the condition of transit 10th lord MARS as an indicator of the incumbent party, we see that it is well placed but in old age in Libra as the polls close in Hawaii. Moreover, transit 2nd lord SUN, which rules the Presidency, is at that time conjunct natal KETU, suggesting some sudden and likely seen to be an adverse event. Meanwhile, 6th lord JUPITER, the indicator of the political opposition is well placed in its own sign and aspected by 4th lord VENUS. Even if afflicting both 4th lord Venus and 8th lord SATURN, it is not itself afflicted. This suggests the strong position of Jupiter and the political opposition is what disturbs the communal

harmony. In other words, it could be argued that these placements favour the Democrats win.

But, let us go back to the drawing board and revisit the natal charts and try to see what they suggest based on period and transit influences. Regarding their natal potential we have earlier heard 's assessment that on the basis of Obama's natal 24° 43' Capricorn rising chart, it is not certain he will reach the "top job". Regarding McCain's 13° 03' Aquarius rising chart, he says it explains his "high status." As such, the natal potential does not rule out a McCain victory, but does not see it as a compelling outcome either. At best, it would be something achieved in a very close election.

In Obama's chart, the Jupiter-Moon period is operating with an exalted natal 7th lord MOON at 10° 01' Taurus/H5 but under the aspect of 12th lord JUPITER at 7° 32' Capricorn/H1. Jupiter also afflicts 9th lord MERCURY at 9° 00' Cancer/H7. The influence of Jupiter suggests losses from misstatements ("spread the wealth around") and intellectual/religious associates due primarily to his afflicted 9th lord Mercury in 7th house. On the upside, the aspect of Jupiter to Moon is outside of 2° orb and outside 1° orb for Mercury. This reduces the harm. So, the Moon period influence suggest strains but not damage. However, transit Jupiter at 23° 00' Sagittarius/H12 is closely afflicting transit 2nd lord SATURN at 25° 02' Leo/H8. Moreover, transit Ketu at 19° 52' is closely afflicting his natal 8th lord SUN at 19° 13' Cancer/H7. Finally, transit Mercury at 6° 57' Libra/H10 is being afflicted

by natal Ketu at 3° 58' Aquarius/H2. In short, the transits are quite woeful for Obama at election time.

In McCain's 13° 03' Aquarius rising chart the Mercury-Mercury period is operating, with natal Mercury at 9° 45' Virgo/H8. When the polls close, his 8th lord Mercury will be well placed and strong at 7° 17' Libra/H9. Moreover, his natal strengths due to 7th lord Sun and 11th lord Jupiter will not be reduced by their weakness in transit. Moreover, his weak but well placed Saturn will also be well placed, as will his other FBs. His weakness at this time will be transit of KETU at 19° 53' Cancer over his debilitated 3rd lord MARS at 19° 35' Cancer/H6.

In short, it is not possible for me to make a very precise prediction. has suggested this will be a close election. Nevertheless, it seems more consistent that McCain's Aquarius chart that he has karma for "high status" and Obama does not have the karma for the "top job". Based on this McCain would win. Maybe Obama will scare some people off at the hour of decision due to his statements and controversial associates and his plan to "change the world". Maybe people will at the last minute not be sure what he intends to do, or what he really thinks, and become hesitant to give him so much power. If so, this will upset many of his most ardent supporters, who desperately want to see change in the USA and the world. In short, consider my view as a qualified McCain win based on an assessment of the astrological evidence - but in the face of overwhelming odds that Obama

will win according to the polls! Either there will be a major last minute change of view or there is more uncertainty about the birth times than the present information suggests. So, this is not an easy choice to make and we will just have to wait and see how this interesting election turns out.

If list members, want to make their views heard based on the astrological factors, at this late hour in the election process, please feel free to do so.

Best wishes,

Thor

November 2, 2008

Dear Thor,

We can note that Saturn rules the colour black and also the working class.

The possibility exists that these groups are likely to be largely involved

in the upset.

For these groups to be upset, I think McCain has to win or some harm to

Obama if he wins. It's difficult to see who will win from the USA natal

chart, but those likely to be affected most can be assessed to a better

degree. That said, this is all speculative in the abscence of natal charts

of the candidates.

Best regards,

Vyas Munidas

-

" Cosmologer " <cosmologer

Sunday, November 02, 2008 7:02 AM

Barack Obama or John McCain: last thoughts

Dear friends,

On SAMVA there have been some exchanges on the likely outcome of the

Presidential election based on the information of the charts of the

respective candidates as well as what is seen in the SAMVA USA chart

Perpetual Union. At the same time, it is now well known that the polls ALL

show Obama leading McCain both in the popular and electoral vote, suggesting

he is a 'shoe in' to be elected as the next President of the USA. Yet, the

astrological evidence is not as clear cut. Either this is because some last

mintue change of view is likely or that there is unresolved uncertainty

about the birth times of the two candidates.

It has not helped matters that the birth times of the candidates have been

unkown and for the longest time been a guessing game for astrologers. During

the summer of 2008, the earlier assumptions about birth times needed to be

revised, in both cases from morning to evening times, due to the appearance

of birth certificates. Even with new birth times emerging, some people have

questioned their validity. Some have suggested e.g. John McCain was born

somewhere else in Panama and others that Obama was in fact not born in

Hawaii, but in Kenya. Such doubts could be politically motivated, to suggest

the candidates are in fact not natural born citizens, which is necessary to

run for this office. If we ingore this and assume the birth certificates are

authentic and broadly accurate, we at least have some information to go on.

Even then, the standard rectification work involving accurate predictions is

need to resolve remaining doubts about the exact

rising degree. Given this state of affairs it is not easy to make a

prediction on the basis of their charts, as there is still uncertainty about

the true rising degree, and it can matter if it is correct or not.

We have also looked at the SAMVA USA chart for clues. There we see

tremendous upset over the outcome and possible violence afterwards. Even

there, the outcome could be either way. Such a scenario could develop

because Obama wins or McCain wins. Let's first look at the more likely

outcome, that Obama's wins. In this case we can interpret the SAMVA USA

chart as suggesting that some white racist people will become furiously

angry that a black man has been elected president and will resort to acts of

violence to protest that. Another scenario involves the outside chance at

present that McCain wins. For this to happen, many people would need to

change their minds in the polls or for undecideds to massively vote for

McCain. Such an outcmoe would likely make some young Obama supporters, who

think the country desperately needs a change, would become furiously angry.

Resorting to violence could also result from that as the news story about

Erika Young

suggested and was typical of the mindeset of Obama associate William Ayers

in the late 1960s.

In short, the SAMVA USA chart by itself doesn't help us very much in making

the prediction. It mostly helps us see that the election will likelly be

followed by upset to the communal harmony and for acts of violence to occur

from the middle of November. If we look at the condition of transit 10th

lord MARS as an indicator of the incumbent party, we see that it is well

placed but in old age in Libra as the polls close in Hawaii. Moreover,

transit 2nd lord SUN, which rules the Presidency, is at that time conjunct

natal KETU, suggesting some sudden and likely seen to be an adverse event.

Meanwhile, 6th lord JUPITER, the indicator of the political opposition is

well placed in its own sign and aspected by 4th lord VENUS. Even if

afflicting both 4th lord Venus and 8th lord SATURN, it is not itself

afflicted. This suggests the strong position of Jupiter and the political

opposition is what disturbs the communal harmony. In other words, it could

be argued

that these placements favour the Democrats win.

But, let us go back to the drawing board and revisit the natal charts and

try to see what they suggest based on period and transit influences.

Regarding their natal potential we have earlier heard 's

assessment that on the basis of Obama's natal 24° 43' Capricorn rising

chart, it is not certain he will reach the " top job " . Regarding McCain's 13°

03' Aquarius rising chart, he says it explains his " high status. " As such,

the natal potential does not rule out a McCain victory, but does not see it

as a compelling outcome either. At best, it would be something achieved in a

very close election.

In Obama's chart, the Jupiter-Moon period is operating with an exalted natal

7th lord MOON at 10° 01' Taurus/H5 but under the aspect of 12th lord JUPITER

at 7° 32' Capricorn/H1. Jupiter also afflicts 9th lord MERCURY at 9° 00'

Cancer/H7. The influence of Jupiter suggests losses from misstatements

( " spread the wealth around " ) and intellectual/religious associates due

primarily to his afflicted 9th lord Mercury in 7th house. On the upside, the

aspect of Jupiter to Moon is outside of 2° orb and outside 1° orb for

Mercury. This reduces the harm. So, the Moon period influence suggest

strains but not damage. However, transit Jupiter at 23° 00' Sagittarius/H12

is closely afflicting transit 2nd lord SATURN at 25° 02' Leo/H8. Moreover,

transit Ketu at 19° 52' is closely afflicting his natal 8th lord SUN at 19°

13' Cancer/H7. Finally, transit Mercury at 6° 57' Libra/H10 is being

afflicted by natal Ketu at 3° 58' Aquarius/H2. In short, the

transits are quite woeful for Obama at election time.

In McCain's 13° 03' Aquarius rising chart the Mercury-Mercury period is

operating, with natal Mercury at 9° 45' Virgo/H8. When the polls close, his

8th lord Mercury will be well placed and strong at 7° 17' Libra/H9.

Moreover, his natal strengths due to 7th lord Sun and 11th lord Jupiter will

not be reduced by their weakness in transit. Moreover, his weak but well

placed Saturn will also be well placed, as will his other FBs. His weakness

at this time will be transit of KETU at 19° 53' Cancer over his debilitated

3rd lord MARS at 19° 35' Cancer/H6.

In short, it is not possible for me to make a very precise prediction.

has suggested this will be a close election.

Nevertheless, it seems more consistent that McCain's Aquarius chart that he

has karma for " high status " and Obama does not have the karma for the " top

job " . Based on this McCain would win. Maybe Obama will scare some people off

at the hour of decision due to his statements and controversial associates

and his plan to " change the world " . Maybe people will at the last minute not

be sure what he intends to do, or what he really thinks, and become hesitant

to give him so much power. If so, this will upset many of his most ardent

supporters, who desperately want to see change in the USA and the world. In

short, consider my view as a qualified McCain win based on an assessment of

the astrological evidence - but in the face of overwhelming odds that Obama

will win according to the polls! Either there will be a

major last minute change of view or there is more uncertainty about the

birth times than the present information suggests. So, this is not an easy

choice to make and we will just have to wait and see how this interesting

election turns out.

If list members, want to make their views heard based on the astrological

factors, at this late hour in the election process, please feel free to do

so.

Best wishes,

Thor

November 2, 2008

Dear Vyas,

Thanks for the excellent additional insights regarding the

indications of the afflicted transit Saturn in the SAMVA USA chart at

the present time.

Indeed, as mentioned be me, the thoughts are necessarily speculative

given the uncertainty about the natal charts. Even then, it is part

and parcel of our efforts to comment on different charts to see what

they suggest or if they are plausible. To this I must add that the

chart for Obama seems to be quite plausible. More work is needed on

the chart for McCain. That said, we do not have unlimited time for

rectifying many charts on this list, as that work tends to be quite

time consuming. I think it is fair to say that the efforts or most

contributors on this list are subject to a tight time constraint.

Having mentioned that, we can observe -- in addition to the election

outcome and events involving the candidates -- the developments and

reactions of the African American community and working class people

in general in the USA in coming weeks.

Best wishes,

Thor

SAMVA , " Vyas Munidas " <muni> wrote:

>

> Dear Thor,

>

> We can note that Saturn rules the colour black and also the working

class.

> The possibility exists that these groups are likely to be largely

involved

> in the upset.

>

> For these groups to be upset, I think McCain has to win or some

harm to

> Obama if he wins. It's difficult to see who will win from the USA

natal

> chart, but those likely to be affected most can be assessed to a

better

> degree. That said, this is all speculative in the abscence of natal

charts

> of the candidates.

>

> Best regards,

>

> Vyas Munidas

>

> -

> " Cosmologer " <cosmologer

> <samva >

> Sunday, November 02, 2008 7:02 AM

> Barack Obama or John McCain: last thoughts

>

> Dear friends,

>

> On SAMVA there have been some exchanges on the likely outcome of

the

> Presidential election based on the information of the charts of the

> respective candidates as well as what is seen in the SAMVA USA

chart

> Perpetual Union. At the same time, it is now well known that the

polls ALL

> show Obama leading McCain both in the popular and electoral vote,

suggesting

> he is a 'shoe in' to be elected as the next President of the USA.

Yet, the

> astrological evidence is not as clear cut. Either this is because

some last

> mintue change of view is likely or that there is unresolved

uncertainty

> about the birth times of the two candidates.

>

> It has not helped matters that the birth times of the candidates

have been

> unkown and for the longest time been a guessing game for

astrologers. During

> the summer of 2008, the earlier assumptions about birth times

needed to be

> revised, in both cases from morning to evening times, due to the

appearance

> of birth certificates. Even with new birth times emerging, some

people have

> questioned their validity. Some have suggested e.g. John McCain was

born

> somewhere else in Panama and others that Obama was in fact not born

in

> Hawaii, but in Kenya. Such doubts could be politically motivated,

to suggest

> the candidates are in fact not natural born citizens, which is

necessary to

> run for this office. If we ingore this and assume the birth

certificates are

> authentic and broadly accurate, we at least have some information

to go on.

> Even then, the standard rectification work involving accurate

predictions is

> need to resolve remaining doubts about the exact

> rising degree. Given this state of affairs it is not easy to make

a

> prediction on the basis of their charts, as there is still

uncertainty about

> the true rising degree, and it can matter if it is correct or not.

>

> We have also looked at the SAMVA USA chart for clues. There we see

> tremendous upset over the outcome and possible violence afterwards.

Even

> there, the outcome could be either way. Such a scenario could

develop

> because Obama wins or McCain wins. Let's first look at the more

likely

> outcome, that Obama's wins. In this case we can interpret the SAMVA

USA

> chart as suggesting that some white racist people will become

furiously

> angry that a black man has been elected president and will resort

to acts of

> violence to protest that. Another scenario involves the outside

chance at

> present that McCain wins. For this to happen, many people would

need to

> change their minds in the polls or for undecideds to massively vote

for

> McCain. Such an outcmoe would likely make some young Obama

supporters, who

> think the country desperately needs a change, would become

furiously angry.

> Resorting to violence could also result from that as the news story

about

> Erika Young

> suggested and was typical of the mindeset of Obama associate

William Ayers

> in the late 1960s.

>

> In short, the SAMVA USA chart by itself doesn't help us very much

in making

> the prediction. It mostly helps us see that the election will

likelly be

> followed by upset to the communal harmony and for acts of violence

to occur

> from the middle of November. If we look at the condition of transit

10th

> lord MARS as an indicator of the incumbent party, we see that it is

well

> placed but in old age in Libra as the polls close in Hawaii.

Moreover,

> transit 2nd lord SUN, which rules the Presidency, is at that time

conjunct

> natal KETU, suggesting some sudden and likely seen to be an adverse

event.

> Meanwhile, 6th lord JUPITER, the indicator of the political

opposition is

> well placed in its own sign and aspected by 4th lord VENUS. Even if

> afflicting both 4th lord Venus and 8th lord SATURN, it is not

itself

> afflicted. This suggests the strong position of Jupiter and the

political

> opposition is what disturbs the communal harmony. In other words,

it could

> be argued

> that these placements favour the Democrats win.

>

> But, let us go back to the drawing board and revisit the natal

charts and

> try to see what they suggest based on period and transit

influences.

> Regarding their natal potential we have earlier heard Professor

Choudhry's

> assessment that on the basis of Obama's natal 24° 43' Capricorn

rising

> chart, it is not certain he will reach the " top job " . Regarding

McCain's 13°

> 03' Aquarius rising chart, he says it explains his " high status. "

As such,

> the natal potential does not rule out a McCain victory, but does

not see it

> as a compelling outcome either. At best, it would be something

achieved in a

> very close election.

>

> In Obama's chart, the Jupiter-Moon period is operating with an

exalted natal

> 7th lord MOON at 10° 01' Taurus/H5 but under the aspect of 12th

lord JUPITER

> at 7° 32' Capricorn/H1. Jupiter also afflicts 9th lord MERCURY at

9° 00'

> Cancer/H7. The influence of Jupiter suggests losses from

misstatements

> ( " spread the wealth around " ) and intellectual/religious associates

due

> primarily to his afflicted 9th lord Mercury in 7th house. On the

upside, the

> aspect of Jupiter to Moon is outside of 2° orb and outside 1° orb

for

> Mercury. This reduces the harm. So, the Moon period influence

suggest

> strains but not damage. However, transit Jupiter at 23° 00'

Sagittarius/H12

> is closely afflicting transit 2nd lord SATURN at 25° 02' Leo/H8.

Moreover,

> transit Ketu at 19° 52' is closely afflicting his natal 8th lord

SUN at 19°

> 13' Cancer/H7. Finally, transit Mercury at 6° 57' Libra/H10 is

being

> afflicted by natal Ketu at 3° 58' Aquarius/H2. In short, the

> transits are quite woeful for Obama at election time.

>

> In McCain's 13° 03' Aquarius rising chart the Mercury-Mercury

period is

> operating, with natal Mercury at 9° 45' Virgo/H8. When the polls

close, his

> 8th lord Mercury will be well placed and strong at 7° 17' Libra/H9.

> Moreover, his natal strengths due to 7th lord Sun and 11th lord

Jupiter will

> not be reduced by their weakness in transit. Moreover, his weak but

well

> placed Saturn will also be well placed, as will his other FBs. His

weakness

> at this time will be transit of KETU at 19° 53' Cancer over his

debilitated

> 3rd lord MARS at 19° 35' Cancer/H6.

>

> In short, it is not possible for me to make a very precise

prediction.

> has suggested this will be a close election.

> Nevertheless, it seems more consistent that McCain's Aquarius chart

that he

> has karma for " high status " and Obama does not have the karma for

the " top

> job " . Based on this McCain would win. Maybe Obama will scare some

people off

> at the hour of decision due to his statements and controversial

associates

> and his plan to " change the world " . Maybe people will at the last

minute not

> be sure what he intends to do, or what he really thinks, and become

hesitant

> to give him so much power. If so, this will upset many of his most

ardent

> supporters, who desperately want to see change in the USA and the

world. In

> short, consider my view as a qualified McCain win based on an

assessment of

> the astrological evidence - but in the face of overwhelming odds

that Obama

> will win according to the polls! Either there will be a

> major last minute change of view or there is more uncertainty

about the

> birth times than the present information suggests. So, this is not

an easy

> choice to make and we will just have to wait and see how this

interesting

> election turns out.

>

> If list members, want to make their views heard based on the

astrological

> factors, at this late hour in the election process, please feel

free to do

> so.

>

> Best wishes,

>

> Thor

>

November 2, 2008

Thor,

Thanks for your interesting commentary and analysis. I wish to bring to your attention an article appearing in the most recent copy of the Journal of Astrology which I received in the mail just yesterday. It contains an article entitled "An experiment at Reverse Engineering" by Marisha Sharma and K. Raju Nair. In it they provide a very exhaustive comparison event by event of Obama's life events displaying how it fits two possible times of birth. The first is provided by Col. A. K. Gour - 13.26 hours and the second 19:24 hours which Lois Rodden's site shows based on "copies" of his birth certificate.

While in the end cross checking dashas and transits is not fool-proof, they present detailed reasons and astrological "events" which much to my surprised seems to support the 13.26 hour birth time with more "hits" than the 19.24 time. We may not know even after November 4th which time is correct, but it is the first time I have observed such a detailed and provocative analysis - event by event. I recommend reading the article to anyone who seriously has studied the question.

Again, July-September, 2008 issue of Journal of Astrology pp 33-38.

Jason

--- On Sun, 11/2/08, Cosmologer <cosmologer wrote:

Cosmologer <cosmologer Barack Obama or John McCain: last thoughtssamva Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 7:02 AM