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RE: [Sri Guru] Hora definition (Lesson#6)

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Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya

My dear Narasimha,

 

Some additional points are given under:-

>

> If 6:00 am LMT is the exact sunrise time on the equinox at

> *every* place in the world, then you have a basis for 6 am.

 

Rath: Is this not the definition of EQUINOX..Equal day and night?

 

> It was hasty of me to think that a logical person like you

> could come up with something arbitrary. However, I am not

> sure if the day is 6:00 LMT to 18:00 LMT at equinox in

> *every* place of the world.

Rath: Perhaps you should meditate more.

 

> I will give a more balanced reply after I do more study.

>

> I will ponder over other issues. BTW, you mentioned the

> issue of 12 diva horas and 12 raatri horas and talked about

> the problem with high latitudes. The problem will be there

> with your approach also. With your approach also, the number

> of horas in the day and night will not be 12 always.

 

Rath: Agreed, It can never be. So, where is the catch??

 

> Whatever problem you mention with horas at high latitudes

> exists for lagna, BL, HL, GL also. What is your comment on

> those?

Rath: The Hora is a measure of quantity of time the others are points in the

Zodiac. This is simple.

 

> BTW day and night are not equal at Makara Sankranthi as you

> said. It should be in March and September.

Rath: Error made in a hurry. Try Mesha Sankranti when the tropical and

Sidereal zodiacs are the same. This will also explain the starting point of

the Zodiac and all that you have mentioned till now are quite off the mark.

You speak qualitatively about Bhagavan and how He chose Aries to represent

His head. That's fine, but I wanted to know as to why He chose that. The

answer lies in the Equinoxes on the day when the tropical and sidereal

zodiacs are the same (perhaps 285AD). What happened to Jaimini's statement

on Vighatika and Ghatika's? Are you reconciled to the fact that these are

fixed measures (quantity) of time or not? Ghatika=24 minutes and

Vighatika=24 Seconds.

Best Wishes,

Sanjay Rath

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Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya

My dear Gauranga,

You have given the REAL basis for the LMT (or 6AM LMT start) for

definition of Day for use in HORA's ONLY. I agree with this and this is what

I have been trying to explain. The Abhijit Muhurta that you indicate is

fixed at Local Noon every day and this moment is most auspicious. This

period is for one Ghatika (24 Minutes) and shows that the Muhurta or Ghatika

is a fixed measure of time of 24 minutes. You have given another very strong

argument in support of what I learnt. Of course it took me many more years

to understand the real import of this(I can be a very stubborn OX at times

and my elders were really kind in this respect) .

 

Vishnu is Achyuta or the unchangeable and keeps His promise of driving

away the evils everyday when the Sun is at its apex. This point has been

explained very well by you.

 

Hare Krishna

Sanjay Rath

-

Gauranga Das <gauranga

<varahamihira >

Saturday, July 15, 2000 9:35 PM

Re: [sri Guru] Hora definition (Re: Lesson#6)

 

 

> JAYA JAGANNATHA!

>

> Dear Gurudeva,

>

> Pranaams.

>

> I would like to add just a few simple thoughts to this discussion. I see

the rationale in

> accepting the system of Rasi=Bhava as this will work universally in all

D-charts and in

> all latitudes on the Earth. Similarly, if ewe accept a fixed duartion for

the day and

> horas (which hence must depart from considerint sunrise and sunset,

especially in higher

> latitudes) then it will make both the zodiac and the Hora division work on

all latitudes.

> For this we need to fix a point where we divide the day into two halves of

12 horas. I

> think that accpeting local noon as the mid-point of the day is not

arbitrary at all. It

> relates to the astronomical event of the Sun's reaching midheaven (the

highest point on

> his daily course) whether this is visible or not. So if we are to use

horas of fixed legth

> then the 6th Hora of the day shoud start exactly at local noon. Hence the

first will start

> exactly 6 hours before, i.e. at 6 am local time. Otherwise if we fix the

starting point of

> the first hora to the time of apparent sunrise it may happen on some

latitudes and some

> time of the year that local noon falls into the 5th or 7th hora of the

day, and the 12th

> hora of the day will fall after sunset or the 1st hora of the night will

fall befire

> sunset. So chosing the time of apparent sunrise will be much more

arbitrary in the

> practical use of Horas that choosing local noon or 6 hours before or after

it.

>

> Please evaluate.

>

> Your shishya, Gauranga das

>

>

> ------

> Remember all those 80's songs about changing the world? Well, we're

> finally old enough to make those changes. Click to prove you meant it.

> http://click./1/6704/9/_/2192/_/963685790/

> ------

>

> OM TAT SAT

> Archive: varahamihira

> Info: varahamihira/info.html

>

>

>

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Namaste Gurudeva,

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

Infact, yesterday whole day I was trying to find the exact time of swearing in ceremony for our Amir of Bahrain and for Mr.Karunanithi in Tamil Nadu. I browsed many sites and searched to find out, but no luck. I will try today also and if not possible I will definitely attempt the rest of the questions.

 

Meanwhile, you have already closed the discussion on the 6.A.M topic, so I am not continuing the discussion, rather I will concentrate on answering the lesson. But, in general about the controversies I want to say few words.

 

I appreciate and support the vision of Mr.Narasimha that one day Jyotish will be a course in many universities. But, how are we going to achieve that without arriving at consensus on the controversial issues. Unless, we resolve the controversies and standardise, this vision will be difficult.In other words, what steps are we going to take to arrive the consensus?

 

The only way to get the consensus or to convince others on controversies is to get the Material facts about the point we support or stress.

 

For example, when you replied for a question on lesson No.3 that you are going to start the lesson on HORA, I wanted to ask you about hora at Poles. Because, I thought, like the literatures, you will also say that Hora will start at sunrise. But, as a Guru you are forward than us. But, we cannot ignore the points raised by Mr.Narasimha, especially about the other Lagnas, which also came to my mind.

 

Now, for this, the solution is:- we have to concentrate on the Lesson, work as per the HORA given by you and apply this on every possible way in our life and if we get the right results then this proves that our theory is correct. I am not an expert to test it, but, I am telling this for Mr.Narasimha.

 

Thanks and this is my humble opinion.

 

Your sisya

Solai Kannan

 

Sanjay Rath [srath]Saturday, July 15, 2000 6:00 PMvarahamihira Subject: Re: [sri Guru] Hora definition (Re: Lesson#6)Om Namo Bhagavate VasudevayaMy dear Solai,i have asked some very fine questions in the assignment on Hora . Kindlyattempt them.As regards blood circulation, let me tell you that even after the cutting ofthe limb of a person, his astral limb exists. thus the cutting of theumbilical chord is the actual time of birth..signifying independance frommother. Circulation is no criteria as the milk that the mother continues tofeed to the childis also a part of her blood. This is the reason as to whyMARS is also a STHIRA KARAKA for mother along with the Moon. The fathercontributes his semen and the Venus is sthira Karaka for father along withthe Sun. You raised a very good point and I felt that clarification iscalled for. Please keep this for the records you are making. Further, ifthere are any other questions, please go ahead and ask.With RegardsSanjay RathOM TAT SATArchive: varahamihiraInfo: varahamihira/info.html

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Pranaam Gurudev,

 

First let me apologize for not attempting resent lesions. I was tied down with lot of office work. I will try to attempt all the new lesions.

 

> However, saying that a new weekday starts at 6 am LMT is> very arbitrary. Westerners start a new weekday at> midnight (local standard time). If that is arbitrary,> taking 6 am (local mean time) is not less arbitrary.> Why 6 am? Why not 5 am? Why not 6:30 am? Why not 6:05> am? Why not 6:01 am? This is very arbitrary.

 

If any time calculation has to be started, then it must have an initial point. What you say as 6 AM LMT (in Kali Yuga) was 0 Hrs LMT during the period of Parasara. In fact this doubt of yours has affirmed my doubt that the Jyotisha in this list do not have a clear concept of time definitions related to Jyotish. You have raised two points:-

(a) that the time could be 6.05 etc instead of 6 AM LMT: Answer: No, it cannot be. Any scale built by a rational mind shall have an integer, preferably Zero as an initial point.

(b) that the time could be 12 Noon or 12 Midnight instead of 6 AM for the initial point: This has been explained by me in the definition of the four Gayatri. Since the present period is kali Yuga, it is not strange that the Kali Gayatri or Midnight has come to represent the starting point of the day. Let us not blame the westerners for this. we have also adopted this and the world sings Happy New year at the strike of the midnight hour on 31st December. Unfortunate but true. The choice of the Gayatri, if left to a pure sadhu would automatically be the Brahma gayatri of 6 AM (which in the Vedic Time scale would be 00 Hora) as Brahma represents the beginning and what we are concerned about is the beginning of the day. Thus with the understanding of the Gayatri and the need to have a scale for time having 24 divisions, it was natural to start at what is now called 6.00 AM LMT.

I have a question for you. Can you tell why the starting point of the Zodiac is Zero degrees of Aries and not 15 deg Taurus?

 

Some where, in Brihat Samhita, I remember reading Varahamihira mentioning that at some time Uttarayana Dakshinaayana were linked with some rasis different of Capricorn and Cancer. So, there could have been some changes from ancient time to now (I will refer to Brihat Samhita tonight and write more tomorrow).

> There is no disagreement among scholars about when the> new weekday and its first hora start. They all agree that> it happens when Sun rises. If you want to deviate, there> must be a very strong reason. You don't seem to have one.

 

What is your definition of strong reason? It is wrong to say that there is no disagreement. Jyotish is one topic where the largest amount of disagreement is present..largely due to lack of depth of understanding. Till recently these scholars did not know WHY THE THREE PLANETS JUPITER, MARS AND SATURN HAVE SPECIAL ASPECTS!! At least you are quite aware of their scholarship when this happened in the Jyotish-list and K N Rao went to look for some documents/manuscripts he had hidden under some box that could not be found even after I gave so many hints. Such intelligent scholars will always agree, yet I beg to disagree. I shall continue to do so till somebody can account for the Hora's in the north pole using the sunrise time.

 

I am surprised why you are mentioning K.N.Rao. It is not needed for this discussion.

 

Your point is that the day starts with the sight of the upper limb of the Sun. I also agree with this and this is the day for all human activities. What happens if this sunrise were to occur once in six months (like in the North Pole)? Then the time definition would go awry. The length of the day would not be 24 hours but almost 6 months!! Realizing this, the Maharishi's gave an independent definition of time in terms of fixed quantities called Hora, Ghatika (Danda in Orissa), Vighatika (Lita in Oriya) and Pal (Bi-lita in Oriya).

 

So, you do agree with the definition of day for all human activities as the Sun rise to Sunrise.

Even in India or any place near equator, this duration is not always exactly 24 hours.

So, the length of day is not always constant.

 

And by giving this definition, we are not defining time. We are only defining a logical

measure which changes from day to day and place to place. Why would time definition

would go awry. When the day duration near equator is changing daily (like 24 hr 5 min one day, 23 hr 2 min another day) why is not time definition go awry.

 

What exactly is the problem if at all duration of day in poles is six months?

Please forgive my ignorance, but I am not able to understand the basic problem.

When day duration can change in minutes (from day to day), why can not it change by months?

 

It will take me some more time in trying to understand and put valid points. What I am doing now is to put my what ever came to my mind after going through the discussion for

the first time.

 

Regards,

your sishya,

Vijay.

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Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya

My dear Vijay,

You have missed the concluding mail I sent on this thread where I had

given the development of the calander. Go through it and the points will

become clear. Please read all the discussions that Narasimha and I have had.

Then only will all the points be clear, else some doubts may continue to

linger. this is one of the important discussions after the Mahapurusha

discussion in the Vedic-Astrology List earlier. Those mails are very rare

gems that come when one discusses a point with a very advanced Sisya like

Narasimha, else a person like me is always very alone in a world of my own.

Blessings & it is a pleasure to hear from you

Sanjay Rath

-

PVKL Narayana Rao <pvklnrao

<varahamihira >

Monday, July 17, 2000 1:34 PM

Re: [sri Guru] Hora definition (Re: Lesson#6)

 

 

Pranaam Gurudev,

 

First let me apologize for not attempting resent lesions. I was tied down

with lot of office work. I will try to attempt all the new lesions.

> However, saying that a new weekday starts at 6 am LMT is

> very arbitrary. Westerners start a new weekday at

> midnight (local standard time). If that is arbitrary,

> taking 6 am (local mean time) is not less arbitrary.

> Why 6 am? Why not 5 am? Why not 6:30 am? Why not 6:05

> am? Why not 6:01 am? This is very arbitrary.

 

If any time calculation has to be started, then it must have an initial

point. What you say as 6 AM LMT (in Kali Yuga) was 0 Hrs LMT during the

period of Parasara. In fact this doubt of yours has affirmed my doubt that

the Jyotisha in this list do not have a clear concept of time definitions

related to Jyotish. You have raised two points:-

(a) that the time could be 6.05 etc instead of 6 AM LMT: Answer: No, it

cannot be. Any scale built by a rational mind shall have an integer,

preferably Zero as an initial point.

(b) that the time could be 12 Noon or 12 Midnight instead of 6 AM for

the initial point: This has been explained by me in the definition of the

four Gayatri. Since the present period is kali Yuga, it is not strange that

the Kali Gayatri or Midnight has come to represent the starting point of the

day. Let us not blame the westerners for this. we have also adopted this and

the world sings Happy New year at the strike of the midnight hour on 31st

December. Unfortunate but true. The choice of the Gayatri, if left to a pure

sadhu would automatically be the Brahma gayatri of 6 AM (which in the Vedic

Time scale would be 00 Hora) as Brahma represents the beginning and what we

are concerned about is the beginning of the day. Thus with the understanding

of the Gayatri and the need to have a scale for time having 24 divisions, it

was natural to start at what is now called 6.00 AM LMT.

I have a question for you. Can you tell why the starting point of the

Zodiac is Zero degrees of Aries and not 15 deg Taurus?

 

Some where, in Brihat Samhita, I remember reading Varahamihira mentioning

that at some time Uttarayana Dakshinaayana were linked with some rasis

different of Capricorn and Cancer. So, there could have been some changes

from ancient time to now (I will refer to Brihat Samhita tonight and write

more tomorrow).

 

> There is no disagreement among scholars about when the

> new weekday and its first hora start. They all agree that

> it happens when Sun rises. If you want to deviate, there

> must be a very strong reason. You don't seem to have one.

 

What is your definition of strong reason? It is wrong to say that there is

no disagreement. Jyotish is one topic where the largest amount of

disagreement is present..largely due to lack of depth of understanding. Till

recently these scholars did not know WHY THE THREE PLANETS JUPITER, MARS AND

SATURN HAVE SPECIAL ASPECTS!! At least you are quite aware of their

scholarship when this happened in the Jyotish-list and K N Rao went to look

for some documents/manuscripts he had hidden under some box that could not

be found even after I gave so many hints. Such intelligent scholars will

always agree, yet I beg to disagree. I shall continue to do so till somebody

can account for the Hora's in the north pole using the sunrise time.

 

I am surprised why you are mentioning K.N.Rao. It is not needed for this

discussion.

 

Your point is that the day starts with the sight of the upper limb of the

Sun. I also agree with this and this is the day for all human activities.

What happens if this sunrise were to occur once in six months (like in the

North Pole)? Then the time definition would go awry. The length of the day

would not be 24 hours but almost 6 months!! Realizing this, the Maharishi's

gave an independent definition of time in terms of fixed quantities called

Hora, Ghatika (Danda in Orissa), Vighatika (Lita in Oriya) and Pal (Bi-lita

in Oriya).

 

So, you do agree with the definition of day for all human activities as the

Sun rise to Sunrise.

Even in India or any place near equator, this duration is not always exactly

24 hours.

So, the length of day is not always constant.

 

And by giving this definition, we are not defining time. We are only

defining a logical

measure which changes from day to day and place to place. Why would time

definition

would go awry. When the day duration near equator is changing daily (like 24

hr 5 min one day, 23 hr 2 min another day) why is not time definition go

awry.

 

What exactly is the problem if at all duration of day in poles is six

months?

Please forgive my ignorance, but I am not able to understand the basic

problem.

When day duration can change in minutes (from day to day), why can not it

change by months?

 

It will take me some more time in trying to understand and put valid points.

What I am doing now is to put my what ever came to my mind after going

through the discussion for

the first time.

 

Regards,

your sishya,

Vijay.

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