False Prophets, misleaders, hopesalesmen

December 18, 2002

I may not be good at doing charts but I can write my ass off.

cpwing44 wrote:In a message dated 12/17/2002 12:24:03 PM Central

Standard Time,

sher_e_khan writes:

> In studying chemistry we made our calculations with a plus or minus value at

> the end of the equation. This means that it could be incorrect by that

> numeric value. All equations have a degree of uncertainty but one thing

> that I know for sure is myself

very good response! /// wing

December 18, 2002

LOL I would love to hear you use that tongue to talk to your mother.

God, get a life buddy. Where did you come from? The Anal Rententive toolbox?

I took English 1101 so I know what an ad-hominem is. But I never met anyone

that checks every e-mail for them. This has nothing to with astrology this is

just strange.

Strawman diversions?? Where did you get that from? Mattlock or Murder She

Wrote? There is no diversion, I was talking to Therese when I asked my

question, not you. For goodness sakes get over yourself.

While I'm at it let me give you some books to read

Egyptian Mythology, Simone Goodenough; Todtri Productions Limited $14.98 @ The

Kansas City Museum of Art (so you can see how far back astrology can be traced

in Egypt)

Children of Alcoholism: A Survivors Manuel,by Judith S. Seixias;Harper & Row

Publishers, $13.00 @ Amazon.com (so you can get over that family secret of

yours)

Two Nations:Black and White, Separate, Hostile, Unequal by Andrew Hacker;

Maximillian Publishing Co $5.00 at a discount bookstore (I threw that one in

because I FELT like it.

Also pick something to help you with your people skills.

" Ed Kohout <crumpo " <crumpo wrote:

I would like to say that I find DRStarguy's comments to be almost

exactly what I would say -- mostly the parts about how all

astrologies can co-exist without canceling each other out. Such

either-or arguments that Mr. Game has tried to foist upon us are

straw-man diversions that have no logical basis.

I find this screed below to be absolutely useless in any way, and it

rather belies some other lack of temprament that has disallowed the

writer to investigate the validity or invalidity of my post. It is

also impolite and full of ad-hominems, but this is no way is a good

substitue for the lack of substance within. It is also unfortunate

that you don't care where the discussion is leading, but this doesn't

really surprise me given your lack of historical knowledge about the

topic.

Yes, indeed, the oldest star chart known to man is Egyptian, but it

is not an astrological chart. Current scholarship shows most easily

that astrology as the study of planetary cycles has its origins well

east of the Sinai. When it comes to the divinatory and horoscopic 12-

sign astrology that is the foundation of Western and Vedic astrology,

this most definitely came via the Greeks who became aware of the

Babylonian system (and revamped it) around the time of Aristotle or

before. This system was imported to Alexandria, where it was

championed by the likes of Ptolemy, and why we find 12-signed zodiacs

at places like Denderah, which are *not* of early antiquity.

I believe that Dover has re-published Gleadow's " Origin of the

Zodiac " for $12.95. It is a most valuable investment for any

astrologer.

- Ed K

, The Game

<sher_e_khan> wrote:

>

> Wow, you sound a lot like a " plant " put in by a tropical astrology

group.

> First of all you have to be joking to believe that the Egyptians

had no idea about astrology or that they got it from the Greeks.

That sounds like a blatent lie with undertones of something else I

care not to mention. I find most of us that converted to sidereal

astrology arguing the same points over as a new head replaces the old

on the " Tropical hydra "

> This reads like a good illustration of what Andrew Lynn said

> I see alot of this as Tropical Astrology propaganda with Hand

trying to

> hijack parts of traditional Vedic astrology and give their origins

to either

> the Greeks or others who used the Tropical zodiac

>

> Your time would be best spent documenting your own personality

traits in an attempt to figure out Ophiuchus then trying to convince

Chris that he is a Capricorn.

>

> I feel like I am turning into Magneto because I have heard these

arguments before and I don't too much care where they are leading.

" How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " -----

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December 18, 2002

Wing, you are firggin awesome dude, Man you rule

hey Ed Kohout was that a run on sentence or a fragment? And while you are at it

could you proofread my term paper, my resume, two letters requesting

recommendations, and a nasty note to my girlfriend

cpwing44 wrote:In a message dated 12/17/2002 2:21:17 PM Central

Standard Time,

DRStarman2001 writes:

> Any astrologers who have to condemn all other astrologers, or entire

> schools of them, in this fashion, clearly have very little confidence in

> themselves as astrologers

oh yeah, that's ME! I almost forgot who i was for a moment. I have NOOO

confidence in myself as an astrologer. actually, i have " not much "

confidence in myself as an arguer, so i'll have to bone up on my venus

(7Scorp) ascendant. Ah if only it were " really " (tropical Sagittarius) --

i'd fly right thru this thing. /// wing

December 18, 2002

Well Ed its obvious that you and Dr. Starman are doing each other. I just hope

he was nice enough to give you a reach around. (now what movie did I get that

from)

" Ed Kohout <crumpo " <crumpo wrote:--- In

, " Ed Kohout <crumpo@e...> "

<crumpo@e...> wrote:

>

> I would like to say that I find DRStarguy's comments to be almost

> exactly what I would say -- mostly the parts about how all

> astrologies can co-exist without canceling each other out. Such

> either-or arguments that Mr. Game has tried to foist upon us are

> straw-man diversions that have no logical basis.

Woops, I should have said " false dilemma " rather than straw man.

- Ed K

..

" How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " -----

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List owner: -owner

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December 18, 2002

Man, Ed you must get invited to all the partys to check for correct punctuation

and grammar. You have such a personality.

Once again let me say this for the the myopic, far-sighted, cross eyed, retarded

or whatever your issue may be. I ASKED A QUESTION TO TERESE AND SHE ANSWERED

IT. DROP IT GRANPA!!!

> wrote: , cpwing44@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 12/17/2002 12:24:03 PM Central Standard Time,

> sher_e_khan writes:

>

> > In studying chemistry we made our calculations with a plus or

minus value at

> > the end of the equation. This means that it could be incorrect

by that

> > numeric value. All equations have a degree of uncertainty but

one thing

> > that I know for sure is myself

>

> very good response! /// wing

Good response to what?? That one knows one's self proves that

sidereal astrology is valid?? How charming!

" How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " -----

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Un: -

List owner: -owner

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December 18, 2002

No essay!!! I think we have proven one thing today and that I am not an idot. I

think my professors called me a smart ass. What do you think vato!! You

comprende the Spanglish?

Juan Oliver <jivio wrote:ok... hows this... you're an idiot!

jivio

--- The Game <sher_e_khan wrote:

>

> First of all I never tried to take a " Rock Solid "

> posture. I asked a questions and it was answered by

> the first two people that responded. But I can see

> you need to add your two cents. What does age have

> to do with anything? I am sure that all those whom

> argued that the Earth was flat had a lot of years

> under their belt too. Don't get threatened by a

> young guy that has got some progressive ideas. Its

> undignified.

> As far as the race card, I call them like I see them

> and there isn't much you can do to stop me from

> seing things through my eyes.

> Now the patronizing use of ebonics is the next thing

> I need to address. If you really do your homework,

> The Game, is a reference to a WWE wrestler by the

> name of Triple H. He calls himself the Game and

> even has a cute song by the Metal rock band,

> Motorhead that he plays when he enters the ring.

> Next time increase your own intellectual capacity

> and mental acumen geometrically

> 360 degrees

> before you attempt evaluate me

> with your fallacies.

>

> DAWG

> Juan Oliver <jivio wrote:Yo...GameBoy...

>

> You're too young to go " Rock Solid " with your

> knowledge quotient...

> There is truth in tropical.... and yo " could "

> appreciate it, value it, and recogize it for what it

> is.

> I've been a siderealist longer than yo have been

> alive... Creating walls to differing opinions

> creates

> a disadvantage to your intellectual development.

>

> And another thing...bury that race card!

> > Your

> > premiss have racial as well as political

> undertones.

> That stuff is poison!

> If you have ever had a " reading " by a

> sensitive(psychic) you'll understand that geometric

> charting(Sidereal or Tropical) is unnecessary.

>

> jivio

> ps: i got game too, dog.

>

> --- The Game <sher_e_khan wrote:

> >

> > If Andrew didn't say it enough then I will be the

> > one to say it. TROPICAL ASTROLOGY IS INVALID,

> > FRAUDULENT AND BOGUS.

> > All you have done is add some questionable premiss

> > to an argument that was 100 times more logical

> than

> > yours. Once again you go with this idea that the

> > Greeks gave astrology to the Egyptians. Your

> > premiss have racial as well as political

> undertones.

> > In studying chemistry we made our calculations

> with

> > a plus or minus value at the end of the equation.

> > This means that it could be incorrect by that

> > numeric value. All equations have a degree of

> > uncertainty but one thing that I know for sure is

> > myself. And I love to hear a tropical astrologer

> > try to tell me who I am.

> >

> > " Ed Kohout <crumpo "

> > <crumpo wrote:--- In

> > , " Andrew Lynn "

> > <skinbags@o...> wrote:

> > >

> > > > Hello Therese

> > > >

> > > > Thanks very much for your comments, but in my

> > experience, it's

> > almost

> > > > impossible to convince Tropical zodiac people

> > that there's a

> > better or

> > > more

> > > > accurate zodiac out there.

> > >

> > > I think this is basically due to the fact that

> > when you have been

> > preaching

> > > something as the gospel truth or correct system

> > for so long, it is

> > very hard

> > > to then say you were mistaken and there is

> > actually a more correct

> > system.

> > > People like Liz Greene and Robert Hand's whole

> > life is tied to

> > their belief

> > > the tropical zodiac is valid and if not, they

> have

> > been misleading

> > not only

> > > themselves, but the paying customer for over 20

> > years!!

> >

> > Andrew,

> >

> > This, sir, is patent nonsense. Not that I think

> Rob

> > Hand is some

> > great sage, but to say that one system is " more

> > correct " than another

> > implies that both are correct on some level, to

> > which opinion may

> > make the difference (Chevy vs. Ford, perhaps) Or,

> > are you saying

> > that one system is simply more useful? In any

> > event, to suggest that

> > the tropical zodiac is somehow a fraud is without

> > logic.

> >

> > Your sidereal zodiac ala Fagan did not exist until

> > 1947, when he

> > published his book, and set his own 0* Aries point

> > at a precessed

> > position relative to the new moon of 786 BC when

> no

> > such 12-sign

> > zodiac existed, let alone the ability to measure

> the

> > ecliptical

> > plane. This is why so many different zodiacs had

> so

> > many different

> > 0* Aries points, depending upon what part of

> Eurasia

> > you lived.

> >

> > And, I don't see what is wrong with asking for

> > money.

> >

> > > As a Vedic

> > > astrologer I myself am only interested in what

> > works and what works

> > very

> > > clearly. Intellectual abstractions are fine for

> > learning but in

> > practice I

> > > want clear and precise results and not the

> psuedo

> > psycho criptic

> > crap I see

> > > in my daily newspaper from Jonathan Canier. Is

> it

> > wonder astrology

> > is a joke

> > > to most people.

> >

> > Your Vedic astrology is mostly taken from the

> Greek

> > astrology of the

> > early first millennium. It can claim no great

> > antiquity.

> >

> > >

> > > All the arguments come down to nothing. I've

> > > > decided that the best way is to first define

> > what makes each sign

> > THAT

> > > > sign, and then demonstrate using actual

> > horoscopes that a

> > particular sign

> > > > is indeed THAT sign we're talking about.

> > Tropical astrologers

> > probably

> > > > still won't pay attention, but at least our

> > cards will be on the

> > table.

> > > I'm

> > > > working on a web site to deal with some of

> these

> > questions. I'll

> > post the

> > > > URL here when the site is up and running.

> > >

> > > You can lead a horse to water but you cannot

> make

> > him drink it. The

> > lords of

> > > Tropical zodiac have too much to lose in

> admitting

> > they are wrong

> > or the

> > > sidereal zodiac is the correct one.

> >

> > Ahh, here you say " correct " as to imply that the

> > tropical is

> > incorrect, and not simply " more correct. " I think

> > for you to make

> > such a claim without backing it up, you should

> first

> > use the 19

> > constellations of the Babylonians that were on the

> > lunar path, and

> > from there see why the Pleiades were not a part of

> > the Bull.

> >

> > > To me the proof is totally in the

> > > results. I use the Krishnamurti system which

> gives

> > stunning results

> > when

> > > used with a correct birthtime. My proof is when

> I

> > meet a person I

> > have never

> > > known previously and within a few hours of

> looking

> > at their chart I

> > can

> > > define their life very accurately. What is

> written

> > in old books has

> > little

> > > meaning to me unless I can see the principals

> > working very clearly

> > > consistently.

> > >

> > > > The latest writings on ancient astrology (like

> > Robert Hand's

> > booklets) do

> > > a

> > > > very good job of explaining the history of the

> > zodiac.

> > >

> > > I see alot of this as Tropical Astrology

> > propaganda with Hand

> > trying to

> > > hijack parts of traditional Vedic astrology and

> > give their origins

> > to either

> > > the Greeks or others who used the Tropical

> zodiac.

> > Most of it as

> > best is

> > > speculation.

> >

> > This is simply incorrect. Gleadow's " Origin of

> the

> > Zodiac " devotes

> > an entire chapter [p. 137 ff] that you should

> read.

> > Hand was barely

> > a gleam in his father's eye when scholarship was

> > proving that the

> > Alexandrian schools were the origins of the Vedic.

> >

> > He would be better off spending his time on

> > researching

> > > horoscopes with both Tropical and sidereal

> > calculations and then he

> > would

> > > clearly see which one works well. People like

> > Richard Houck were

> > honest

> > > enough to admit their research led them to

> dismiss

> > the tropical

> > zodiac

> > > calculations. Its a pity the others get so much

> > credibility without

> > > producing the results in practical application.

> >

> > So, here we are simply name-dropping, like saying

> > that " my dad can

> > beat up your dad, " and claiming that somehow Houck

> > is so much more

> > adept at astrology than the rest of us?

> >

> > > If you have any articles on this I can post them

> > on my website at

> > > www.members.optusnet.com.au/skinbags as many

> > people are interested

> > in the

> > > problem of the " two " zodiacs. If you have

> anything

> > of interest you

> > can share

> > > or anyone else has, please forward your articles

> > to me at

> > > skinbags@o... I often feel like launching a

> full

> > scale war on

> > > people like Jonathan Canier and his cronies who

> > fill the daily

> > papers with

> > > their Sun sign bullshit. All serious minded

> > astrologers should be

> > concerned

> > > at the damage these hopesalesmen do to our art.

> >

> > On this I agree, as the newspaper astrology stuff

> is

> > to formal

> > astrology like Eminem or Brittney Spears is to

> > Steely Dan and Rush.

> >

> > I have at many times fought

> > > a lone battle against these people by sending

> > emails asking them

> > for a

> > > reading on my chart to see if they have any real

> > skill. Never ever

> > have got

> > > a reply of course.

> >

> > Never did you offer to pay!! ;-)

> >

> > Very best,

> > Ed K

> >

> > " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so

> close

> > to Antares? " -----

> >

> > Post message:

> > Subscribe:

> > -

> > Un:

> > -

> > List owner:

> > -owner

> >

> > Shortcut URL to this page:

> > /

> >

December 18, 2002

I wish you understood how much I would enjoy sharing ideas with you.

Being ignorant dosen't mean you're stupid... you're not stupid but

you sure as hell are ignorant of what you read and write with

regularity.

The opportunity within a forum is to be both teacher and student.

I wish you luck...

jivio

-- In , The Game <sher_e_khan>

wrote:

>

> No essay!!! I think we have proven one thing today and that I am

not an idot. I think my professors called me a smart ass. What do

you think vato!! You comprende the Spanglish?

> Juan Oliver <jivio> wrote:ok... hows this... you're an idiot!

>

> jivio

>

> --- The Game <sher_e_khan> wrote:

> >

> > First of all I never tried to take a " Rock Solid "

> > posture. I asked a questions and it was answered by

> > the first two people that responded. But I can see

> > you need to add your two cents. What does age have

> > to do with anything? I am sure that all those whom

> > argued that the Earth was flat had a lot of years

> > under their belt too. Don't get threatened by a

> > young guy that has got some progressive ideas. Its

> > undignified.

> > As far as the race card, I call them like I see them

> > and there isn't much you can do to stop me from

> > seing things through my eyes.

> > Now the patronizing use of ebonics is the next thing

> > I need to address. If you really do your homework,

> > The Game, is a reference to a WWE wrestler by the

> > name of Triple H. He calls himself the Game and

> > even has a cute song by the Metal rock band,

> > Motorhead that he plays when he enters the ring.

> > Next time increase your own intellectual capacity

> > and mental acumen geometrically

> > 360 degrees

> > before you attempt evaluate me

> > with your fallacies.

> >

> > DAWG

> > Juan Oliver <jivio> wrote:Yo...GameBoy...

> >

> > You're too young to go " Rock Solid " with your

> > knowledge quotient...

> > There is truth in tropical.... and yo " could "

> > appreciate it, value it, and recogize it for what it

> > is.

> > I've been a siderealist longer than yo have been

> > alive... Creating walls to differing opinions

> > creates

> > a disadvantage to your intellectual development.

> >

> > And another thing...bury that race card!

> > > Your

> > > premiss have racial as well as political

> > undertones.

> > That stuff is poison!

> > If you have ever had a " reading " by a

> > sensitive(psychic) you'll understand that geometric

> > charting(Sidereal or Tropical) is unnecessary.

> >

> > jivio

> > ps: i got game too, dog.

> >

> > --- The Game <sher_e_khan> wrote:

> > >

> > > If Andrew didn't say it enough then I will be the

> > > one to say it. TROPICAL ASTROLOGY IS INVALID,

> > > FRAUDULENT AND BOGUS.

> > > All you have done is add some questionable premiss

> > > to an argument that was 100 times more logical

> > than

> > > yours. Once again you go with this idea that the

> > > Greeks gave astrology to the Egyptians. Your

> > > premiss have racial as well as political

> > undertones.

> > > In studying chemistry we made our calculations

> > with

> > > a plus or minus value at the end of the equation.

> > > This means that it could be incorrect by that

> > > numeric value. All equations have a degree of

> > > uncertainty but one thing that I know for sure is

> > > myself. And I love to hear a tropical astrologer

> > > try to tell me who I am.

> > >

> > > " Ed Kohout <crumpo@e...> "

> > > <crumpo@e...> wrote:--- In

> > > , " Andrew Lynn "

> > > <skinbags@o...> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > Hello Therese

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks very much for your comments, but in my

> > > experience, it's

> > > almost

> > > > > impossible to convince Tropical zodiac people

> > > that there's a

> > > better or

> > > > more

> > > > > accurate zodiac out there.

> > > >

> > > > I think this is basically due to the fact that

> > > when you have been

> > > preaching

> > > > something as the gospel truth or correct system

> > > for so long, it is

> > > very hard

> > > > to then say you were mistaken and there is

> > > actually a more correct

> > > system.

> > > > People like Liz Greene and Robert Hand's whole

> > > life is tied to

> > > their belief

> > > > the tropical zodiac is valid and if not, they

> > have

> > > been misleading

> > > not only

> > > > themselves, but the paying customer for over 20

> > > years!!

> > >

> > > Andrew,

> > >

> > > This, sir, is patent nonsense. Not that I think

> > Rob

> > > Hand is some

> > > great sage, but to say that one system is " more

> > > correct " than another

> > > implies that both are correct on some level, to

> > > which opinion may

> > > make the difference (Chevy vs. Ford, perhaps) Or,

> > > are you saying

> > > that one system is simply more useful? In any

> > > event, to suggest that

> > > the tropical zodiac is somehow a fraud is without

> > > logic.

> > >

> > > Your sidereal zodiac ala Fagan did not exist until

> > > 1947, when he

> > > published his book, and set his own 0* Aries point

> > > at a precessed

> > > position relative to the new moon of 786 BC when

> > no

> > > such 12-sign

> > > zodiac existed, let alone the ability to measure

> > the

> > > ecliptical

> > > plane. This is why so many different zodiacs had

> > so

> > > many different

> > > 0* Aries points, depending upon what part of

> > Eurasia

> > > you lived.

> > >

> > > And, I don't see what is wrong with asking for

> > > money.

> > >

> > > > As a Vedic

> > > > astrologer I myself am only interested in what

> > > works and what works

> > > very

> > > > clearly. Intellectual abstractions are fine for

> > > learning but in

> > > practice I

> > > > want clear and precise results and not the

> > psuedo

> > > psycho criptic

> > > crap I see

> > > > in my daily newspaper from Jonathan Canier. Is

> > it

> > > wonder astrology

> > > is a joke

> > > > to most people.

> > >

> > > Your Vedic astrology is mostly taken from the

> > Greek

> > > astrology of the

> > > early first millennium. It can claim no great

> > > antiquity.

> > >

> > > >

> > > > All the arguments come down to nothing. I've

> > > > > decided that the best way is to first define

> > > what makes each sign

> > > THAT

> > > > > sign, and then demonstrate using actual

> > > horoscopes that a

> > > particular sign

> > > > > is indeed THAT sign we're talking about.

> > > Tropical astrologers

> > > probably

> > > > > still won't pay attention, but at least our

> > > cards will be on the

> > > table.

> > > > I'm

> > > > > working on a web site to deal with some of

> > these

> > > questions. I'll

> > > post the

> > > > > URL here when the site is up and running.

> > > >

> > > > You can lead a horse to water but you cannot

> > make

> > > him drink it. The

> > > lords of

> > > > Tropical zodiac have too much to lose in

> > admitting

> > > they are wrong

> > > or the

> > > > sidereal zodiac is the correct one.

> > >

> > > Ahh, here you say " correct " as to imply that the

> > > tropical is

> > > incorrect, and not simply " more correct. " I think

> > > for you to make

> > > such a claim without backing it up, you should

> > first

> > > use the 19

> > > constellations of the Babylonians that were on the

> > > lunar path, and

> > > from there see why the Pleiades were not a part of

> > > the Bull.

> > >

> > > > To me the proof is totally in the

> > > > results. I use the Krishnamurti system which

> > gives

> > > stunning results

> > > when

> > > > used with a correct birthtime. My proof is when

> > I

> > > meet a person I

> > > have never

> > > > known previously and within a few hours of

> > looking

> > > at their chart I

> > > can

> > > > define their life very accurately. What is

> > written

> > > in old books has

> > > little

> > > > meaning to me unless I can see the principals

> > > working very clearly

> > > > consistently.

> > > >

> > > > > The latest writings on ancient astrology (like

> > > Robert Hand's

> > > booklets) do

> > > > a

> > > > > very good job of explaining the history of the

> > > zodiac.

> > > >

> > > > I see alot of this as Tropical Astrology

> > > propaganda with Hand

> > > trying to

> > > > hijack parts of traditional Vedic astrology and

> > > give their origins

> > > to either

> > > > the Greeks or others who used the Tropical

> > zodiac.

> > > Most of it as

> > > best is

> > > > speculation.

> > >

> > > This is simply incorrect. Gleadow's " Origin of

> > the

> > > Zodiac " devotes

> > > an entire chapter [p. 137 ff] that you should

> > read.

> > > Hand was barely

> > > a gleam in his father's eye when scholarship was

> > > proving that the

> > > Alexandrian schools were the origins of the Vedic.

> > >

> > > He would be better off spending his time on

> > > researching

> > > > horoscopes with both Tropical and sidereal

> > > calculations and then he

> > > would

> > > > clearly see which one works well. People like

> > > Richard Houck were

> > > honest

> > > > enough to admit their research led them to

> > dismiss

> > > the tropical

> > > zodiac

> > > > calculations. Its a pity the others get so much

> > > credibility without

> > > > producing the results in practical application.

> > >

> > > So, here we are simply name-dropping, like saying

> > > that " my dad can

> > > beat up your dad, " and claiming that somehow Houck

> > > is so much more

> > > adept at astrology than the rest of us?

> > >

> > > > If you have any articles on this I can post them

> > > on my website at

> > > > www.members.optusnet.com.au/skinbags as many

> > > people are interested

> > > in the

> > > > problem of the " two " zodiacs. If you have

> > anything

> > > of interest you

> > > can share

> > > > or anyone else has, please forward your articles

> > > to me at

> > > > skinbags@o... I often feel like launching a

> > full

> > > scale war on

> > > > people like Jonathan Canier and his cronies who

> > > fill the daily

> > > papers with

> > > > their Sun sign bullshit. All serious minded

> > > astrologers should be

> > > concerned

> > > > at the damage these hopesalesmen do to our art.

> > >

> > > On this I agree, as the newspaper astrology stuff

> > is

> > > to formal

> > > astrology like Eminem or Brittney Spears is to

> > > Steely Dan and Rush.

> > >

> > > I have at many times fought

> > > > a lone battle against these people by sending

> > > emails asking them

> > > for a

> > > > reading on my chart to see if they have any real

> > > skill. Never ever

> > > have got

> > > > a reply of course.

> > >

> > > Never did you offer to pay!! ;-)

> > >

> > > Very best,

> > > Ed K

> > >

> > > " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so

> > close

> > > to Antares? " -----

> > >

> > > Post message:

> > > Subscribe:

> > > -

> > > Un:

> > > -

> > > List owner:

> > > -owner

> > >

> > > Shortcut URL to this page:

> > > /

> > >

December 18, 2002

, " jivio <jivio> "

<jivio> wrote:

> I wish you understood how much I would enjoy sharing ideas with

you.

> Being ignorant dosen't mean you're stupid... you're not stupid but

> you sure as hell are ignorant of what you read and write with

> regularity.

>

> The opportunity within a forum is to be both teacher and student.

>

> I wish you luck...

>

> jivio

>

> -- In , The Game

<sher_e_khan>

> wrote:

> >

> > No essay!!! I think we have proven one thing today and that I am

> not an idot. I think my professors called me a smart ass. What do

> you think vato!! You comprende the Spanglish?

jivio,

You surely are overestimating this child's abilities by light years.

His astrological and social irrelevance is exceeded only by his

inability to complete a sentence every time he writes something.

But, he is entertaining, in as much as watching a dung beetle do its

master work is entertaining.

Best,

Ed K

> > Juan Oliver <jivio> wrote:ok... hows this... you're an

idiot!

December 18, 2002

Ed...

You are good as long as the batteries hold out....

After that, it's the youth of america that pushes your wheelchair

through the malls. Be a model of role reversal, capture this

Sol/Saturn moment and invest in your future young man...

jivio

, " Ed Kohout <crumpo@e...> "

<crumpo@e...> wrote:

> , " jivio <jivio> "

> <jivio> wrote:

> > I wish you understood how much I would enjoy sharing ideas with

> you.

> > Being ignorant dosen't mean you're stupid... you're not stupid

but

> > you sure as hell are ignorant of what you read and write with

> > regularity.

> >

> > The opportunity within a forum is to be both teacher and student.

> >

> > I wish you luck...

> >

> > jivio

> >

> > -- In , The Game

> <sher_e_khan>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > No essay!!! I think we have proven one thing today and that I

am

> > not an idot. I think my professors called me a smart ass. What

do

> > you think vato!! You comprende the Spanglish?

>

> jivio,

>

> You surely are overestimating this child's abilities by light

years.

> His astrological and social irrelevance is exceeded only by his

> inability to complete a sentence every time he writes something.

> But, he is entertaining, in as much as watching a dung beetle do

its

> master work is entertaining.

>

> Best,

> Ed K

>

> > > Juan Oliver <jivio> wrote:ok... hows this... you're an

> idiot!

December 18, 2002

, " jivio <jivio> "

<jivio> wrote:

> Ed...

> You are good as long as the batteries hold out....

> After that, it's the youth of america that pushes your wheelchair

> through the malls. Be a model of role reversal, capture this

> Sol/Saturn moment and invest in your future young man...

>

> jivio

You are assuming that this youth's future will not consist of being

tossed in jail for some lewd act, such as spousal abuse, or a stint

in a mental institution, or some other awful demise from a mishap

that makes him the star of the Darwin Awards.

No, our friend is crying for help for his own salvation. He has no

sense of self esteem; one cannot treat anyone better than one treats

oneself, which in the case of this person is *poorly*. Every nasty

feeling he has for us (who are nothing more than typewritten words on

a screen!) is simply a reflection of his feelings for himself. He

feels unworthy and stupid, and therefore he must veiw us as lesser

beings in order to justify his own self-loathing; he tries to bring

us down to his low level so that he might feel like his level has

increased, but, alas, it is a game of illusion.

It's quite a severe personality disorder, but there is medication for

such conditions now, and I leave his fate to the police and the

psychiatrists of his home town who would surely agree with me about

his kind of pathetic mentality. I guarantee you that upon his

reading of this or any other thing I may submit, that we will see

nothing but depracation spewing from his little mind. It's all he

has to offer us!

Best,

Ed K

PS, I'm only 36, and can still kick your ass~

December 18, 2002

Ed...

Look in the mirror...

If your your heart sings a sweeter song... Share it!

If all you can offer is a mirror image, then return to the pit from

where you came " clueless edaculeus " .

jivio

, " Ed Kohout <crumpo@e...> "

<crumpo@e...> wrote:

> , " jivio <jivio> "

> <jivio> wrote:

> > Ed...

> > You are good as long as the batteries hold out....

> > After that, it's the youth of america that pushes your wheelchair

> > through the malls. Be a model of role reversal, capture this

> > Sol/Saturn moment and invest in your future young man...

> >

> > jivio

>

> You are assuming that this youth's future will not consist of being

> tossed in jail for some lewd act, such as spousal abuse, or a stint

> in a mental institution, or some other awful demise from a mishap

> that makes him the star of the Darwin Awards.

>

> No, our friend is crying for help for his own salvation. He has no

> sense of self esteem; one cannot treat anyone better than one

treats

> oneself, which in the case of this person is *poorly*. Every nasty

> feeling he has for us (who are nothing more than typewritten words

on

> a screen!) is simply a reflection of his feelings for himself. He

> feels unworthy and stupid, and therefore he must veiw us as lesser

> beings in order to justify his own self-loathing; he tries to bring

> us down to his low level so that he might feel like his level has

> increased, but, alas, it is a game of illusion.

>

> It's quite a severe personality disorder, but there is medication

for

> such conditions now, and I leave his fate to the police and the

> psychiatrists of his home town who would surely agree with me about

> his kind of pathetic mentality. I guarantee you that upon his

> reading of this or any other thing I may submit, that we will see

> nothing but depracation spewing from his little mind. It's all he

> has to offer us!

>

> Best,

> Ed K

>

> PS, I'm only 36, and can still kick your ass~

December 18, 2002

, " jivio <jivio> "

<jivio> wrote:

> Ed...

>

> Look in the mirror...

> If your your heart sings a sweeter song... Share it!

> If all you can offer is a mirror image, then return to the pit from

> where you came " clueless edaculeus " .

Poor little Jivio!! Did someone pee in your sandbox? What's next,

are you going to say that my mother wears combat boots?

I am amazed at how you keep lowering your own already low standards.

It's simply too bad for you that your illogic has been exposed,

sliced, and diced by me like it was under a ginsu knife at

Benehannas. It's simply not my fault that you are grossly

undereducated and amateurish, so slinging mud at me only serves to

underscore your shortcomings to the others who are reading your many

screeds.

Please, by all means, continue with these most telling expose`s of

your dearth of intellecutal reasoning skills!

-

December 18, 2002

Personally, guy I don't want anything from you. You can retract whatever you

want and try to act as if you are the voice of reason but it doesn't change the

fact that No.1 I never asked you anything. You volunteered your unwanted 2

cents to my question. No. 2 you came at me when the condescending use of

ebonics not even knowing for one second where I got it from. Then you try to

pigeonhole me into some sickening stereotype with that " i got game too "

reference.

See Jivio this the good thing about being in the USA, I can choose who my

teachers are and they are not you.

" jivio <jivio " <jivio wrote:I wish you understood how

much I would enjoy sharing ideas with you.

Being ignorant dosen't mean you're stupid... you're not stupid but

you sure as hell are ignorant of what you read and write with

regularity.

The opportunity within a forum is to be both teacher and student.

I wish you luck...

jivio

-- In , The Game <sher_e_khan>

wrote:

>

> No essay!!! I think we have proven one thing today and that I am

not an idot. I think my professors called me a smart ass. What do

you think vato!! You comprende the Spanglish?

> Juan Oliver <jivio> wrote:ok... hows this... you're an idiot!

>

> jivio

>

> --- The Game <sher_e_khan> wrote:

> >

> > First of all I never tried to take a " Rock Solid "

> > posture. I asked a questions and it was answered by

> > the first two people that responded. But I can see

> > you need to add your two cents. What does age have

> > to do with anything? I am sure that all those whom

> > argued that the Earth was flat had a lot of years

> > under their belt too. Don't get threatened by a

> > young guy that has got some progressive ideas. Its

> > undignified.

> > As far as the race card, I call them like I see them

> > and there isn't much you can do to stop me from

> > seing things through my eyes.

> > Now the patronizing use of ebonics is the next thing

> > I need to address. If you really do your homework,

> > The Game, is a reference to a WWE wrestler by the

> > name of Triple H. He calls himself the Game and

> > even has a cute song by the Metal rock band,

> > Motorhead that he plays when he enters the ring.

> > Next time increase your own intellectual capacity

> > and mental acumen geometrically

> > 360 degrees

> > before you attempt evaluate me

> > with your fallacies.

> >

> > DAWG

> > Juan Oliver <jivio> wrote:Yo...GameBoy...

> >

> > You're too young to go " Rock Solid " with your

> > knowledge quotient...

> > There is truth in tropical.... and yo " could "

> > appreciate it, value it, and recogize it for what it

> > is.

> > I've been a siderealist longer than yo have been

> > alive... Creating walls to differing opinions

> > creates

> > a disadvantage to your intellectual development.

> >

> > And another thing...bury that race card!

> > > Your

> > > premiss have racial as well as political

> > undertones.

> > That stuff is poison!

> > If you have ever had a " reading " by a

> > sensitive(psychic) you'll understand that geometric

> > charting(Sidereal or Tropical) is unnecessary.

> >

> > jivio

> > ps: i got game too, dog.

> >

> > --- The Game <sher_e_khan> wrote:

> > >

> > > If Andrew didn't say it enough then I will be the

> > > one to say it. TROPICAL ASTROLOGY IS INVALID,

> > > FRAUDULENT AND BOGUS.

> > > All you have done is add some questionable premiss

> > > to an argument that was 100 times more logical

> > than

> > > yours. Once again you go with this idea that the

> > > Greeks gave astrology to the Egyptians. Your

> > > premiss have racial as well as political

> > undertones.

> > > In studying chemistry we made our calculations

> > with

> > > a plus or minus value at the end of the equation.

> > > This means that it could be incorrect by that

> > > numeric value. All equations have a degree of

> > > uncertainty but one thing that I know for sure is

> > > myself. And I love to hear a tropical astrologer

> > > try to tell me who I am.

> > >

> > > " Ed Kohout <crumpo@e...> "

> > > <crumpo@e...> wrote:--- In

> > > , " Andrew Lynn "

> > > <skinbags@o...> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > Hello Therese

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks very much for your comments, but in my

> > > experience, it's

> > > almost

> > > > > impossible to convince Tropical zodiac people

> > > that there's a

> > > better or

> > > > more

> > > > > accurate zodiac out there.

> > > >

> > > > I think this is basically due to the fact that

> > > when you have been

> > > preaching

> > > > something as the gospel truth or correct system

> > > for so long, it is

> > > very hard

> > > > to then say you were mistaken and there is

> > > actually a more correct

> > > system.

> > > > People like Liz Greene and Robert Hand's whole

> > > life is tied to

> > > their belief

> > > > the tropical zodiac is valid and if not, they

> > have

> > > been misleading

> > > not only

> > > > themselves, but the paying customer for over 20

> > > years!!

> > >

> > > Andrew,

> > >

> > > This, sir, is patent nonsense. Not that I think

> > Rob

> > > Hand is some

> > > great sage, but to say that one system is " more

> > > correct " than another

> > > implies that both are correct on some level, to

> > > which opinion may

> > > make the difference (Chevy vs. Ford, perhaps) Or,

> > > are you saying

> > > that one system is simply more useful? In any

> > > event, to suggest that

> > > the tropical zodiac is somehow a fraud is without

> > > logic.

> > >

> > > Your sidereal zodiac ala Fagan did not exist until

> > > 1947, when he

> > > published his book, and set his own 0* Aries point

> > > at a precessed

> > > position relative to the new moon of 786 BC when

> > no

> > > such 12-sign

> > > zodiac existed, let alone the ability to measure

> > the

> > > ecliptical

> > > plane. This is why so many different zodiacs had

> > so

> > > many different

> > > 0* Aries points, depending upon what part of

> > Eurasia

> > > you lived.

> > >

> > > And, I don't see what is wrong with asking for

> > > money.

> > >

> > > > As a Vedic

> > > > astrologer I myself am only interested in what

> > > works and what works

> > > very

> > > > clearly. Intellectual abstractions are fine for

> > > learning but in

> > > practice I

> > > > want clear and precise results and not the

> > psuedo

> > > psycho criptic

> > > crap I see

> > > > in my daily newspaper from Jonathan Canier. Is

> > it

> > > wonder astrology

> > > is a joke

> > > > to most people.

> > >

> > > Your Vedic astrology is mostly taken from the

> > Greek

> > > astrology of the

> > > early first millennium. It can claim no great

> > > antiquity.

> > >

> > > >

> > > > All the arguments come down to nothing. I've

> > > > > decided that the best way is to first define

> > > what makes each sign

> > > THAT

> > > > > sign, and then demonstrate using actual

> > > horoscopes that a

> > > particular sign

> > > > > is indeed THAT sign we're talking about.

> > > Tropical astrologers

> > > probably

> > > > > still won't pay attention, but at least our

> > > cards will be on the

> > > table.

> > > > I'm

> > > > > working on a web site to deal with some of

> > these

> > > questions. I'll

> > > post the

> > > > > URL here when the site is up and running.

> > > >

> > > > You can lead a horse to water but you cannot

> > make

> > > him drink it. The

> > > lords of

> > > > Tropical zodiac have too much to lose in

> > admitting

> > > they are wrong

> > > or the

> > > > sidereal zodiac is the correct one.

> > >

> > > Ahh, here you say " correct " as to imply that the

> > > tropical is

> > > incorrect, and not simply " more correct. " I think

> > > for you to make

> > > such a claim without backing it up, you should

> > first

> > > use the 19

> > > constellations of the Babylonians that were on the

> > > lunar path, and

> > > from there see why the Pleiades were not a part of

> > > the Bull.

> > >

> > > > To me the proof is totally in the

> > > > results. I use the Krishnamurti system which

> > gives

> > > stunning results

> > > when

> > > > used with a correct birthtime. My proof is when

> > I

> > > meet a person I

> > > have never

> > > > known previously and within a few hours of

> > looking

> > > at their chart I

> > > can

> > > > define their life very accurately. What is

> > written

> > > in old books has

> > > little

> > > > meaning to me unless I can see the principals

> > > working very clearly

> > > > consistently.

> > > >

> > > > > The latest writings on ancient astrology (like

> > > Robert Hand's

> > > booklets) do

> > > > a

> > > > > very good job of explaining the history of the

> > > zodiac.

> > > >

> > > > I see alot of this as Tropical Astrology

> > > propaganda with Hand

> > > trying to

> > > > hijack parts of traditional Vedic astrology and

> > > give their origins

> > > to either

> > > > the Greeks or others who used the Tropical

> > zodiac.

> > > Most of it as

> > > best is

> > > > speculation.

> > >

> > > This is simply incorrect. Gleadow's " Origin of

> > the

> > > Zodiac " devotes

> > > an entire chapter [p. 137 ff] that you should

> > read.

> > > Hand was barely

> > > a gleam in his father's eye when scholarship was

> > > proving that the

> > > Alexandrian schools were the origins of the Vedic.

> > >

> > > He would be better off spending his time on

> > > researching

> > > > horoscopes with both Tropical and sidereal

> > > calculations and then he

> > > would

> > > > clearly see which one works well. People like

> > > Richard Houck were

> > > honest

> > > > enough to admit their research led them to

> > dismiss

> > > the tropical

> > > zodiac

> > > > calculations. Its a pity the others get so much

> > > credibility without

> > > > producing the results in practical application.

> > >

> > > So, here we are simply name-dropping, like saying

> > > that " my dad can

> > > beat up your dad, " and claiming that somehow Houck

> > > is so much more

> > > adept at astrology than the rest of us?

> > >

> > > > If you have any articles on this I can post them

> > > on my website at

> > > > www.members.optusnet.com.au/skinbags as many

> > > people are interested

> > > in the

> > > > problem of the " two " zodiacs. If you have

> > anything

> > > of interest you

> > > can share

> > > > or anyone else has, please forward your articles

> > > to me at

> > > > skinbags@o... I often feel like launching a

> > full

> > > scale war on

> > > > people like Jonathan Canier and his cronies who

> > > fill the daily

> > > papers with

> > > > their Sun sign bullshit. All serious minded

> > > astrologers should be

> > > concerned

> > > > at the damage these hopesalesmen do to our art.

> > >

> > > On this I agree, as the newspaper astrology stuff

> > is

> > > to formal

> > > astrology like Eminem or Brittney Spears is to

> > > Steely Dan and Rush.

> > >

> > > I have at many times fought

> > > > a lone battle against these people by sending

> > > emails asking them

> > > for a

> > > > reading on my chart to see if they have any real

> > > skill. Never ever

> > > have got

> > > > a reply of course.

> > >

> > > Never did you offer to pay!! ;-)

> > >

> > > Very best,

> > > Ed K

> > >

> > > " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so

> > close

> > > to Antares? " -----

> > >

> > > Post message:

> > > Subscribe:

> > > -

> > > Un:

> > > -

> > > List owner:

> > > -owner

> > >

> > > Shortcut URL to this page:

> > > /

> > >

December 18, 2002

i wish this person: > <A

HREF= " sher_e_khan " >sher_e_khan</A> would sign h/her

given name at end

> of each message as i am totally confused! But . . . whoever (ooops

> WHOMever) it is, i'm soooo glad they're here. /// wing aka chris wing in

> austin tx

December 18, 2002

Ed, If I am such the child, why can't you drop it? I don't care about what you

have to type. I will direct all my e-mails privatley to Terese. Just go away

and stop talking to me.

By the way, i mispell just to piss you off know.

" Ed Kohout <crumpo " <crumpo wrote:--- In

, " jivio <jivio> "

<jivio> wrote:

> I wish you understood how much I would enjoy sharing ideas with

you.

> Being ignorant dosen't mean you're stupid... you're not stupid but

> you sure as hell are ignorant of what you read and write with

> regularity.

>

> The opportunity within a forum is to be both teacher and student.

>

> I wish you luck...

>

> jivio

>

> -- In , The Game

<sher_e_khan>

> wrote:

> >

> > No essay!!! I think we have proven one thing today and that I am

> not an idot. I think my professors called me a smart ass. What do

> you think vato!! You comprende the Spanglish?

jivio,

You surely are overestimating this child's abilities by light years.

His astrological and social irrelevance is exceeded only by his

inability to complete a sentence every time he writes something.

But, he is entertaining, in as much as watching a dung beetle do its

master work is entertaining.

Best,

Ed K

> > Juan Oliver <jivio> wrote:ok... hows this... you're an

idiot!

" How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " -----

Post message:

Subscribe: -

Un: -

List owner: -owner

Shortcut URL to this page:

/

December 18, 2002

Wow but does that go for yourself as well since you seem to be the one keeping

this going? Have you ever heard of the saying never argue with a fool because

from a distance people can't tell whose who? Drop it Ed. Your indirect

attempts to call me " low born " are getting old.

I'm young whats your excuse?