Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 How this discussion connected to a astrology Group can any of the participators explain ? Can they talk in tangibles, as to how will predictive astrology undergo a change with what they wish to bring a change about and how ? First prove that the astrologers of today are wrong when they are predicting, and then show examples how will your change bring about a right prediction. No extra talk, no extra theories. Just put in illustrations on how is the astrological setup wrong today in providing predictions with examples , and how will you bring a change with your values which are input or feeded, with examples. No theories about astronomy which may be taken to a Astronomy or a History Group where there are smarter people of your types to argue with you. . Bhaskar. , " harimalla " <harimalla wrote: > > > Dear Mr. Boaz, > I am in agreement with you.But my simple request is in our soli-lunar system,it is not enough to take the solar viewpoint only.The present tropical view point you are mentioning is purely solar season only.To this we also have to combine the lunar seasonal viewpoint too.Thus even in astrology, we not only take the lagan rashi, but also the chandra rashi and combine both.Thus unless there is coordination of the lagan rashi and lunar rashi, astrology is not complete.For this, we should have coordination of the solar and the lunar seasons.This combination requires that the system remain nirayan for 1000 to 2000 years.Then after that priod it is necessary to apply calender reform by shifting the nirayan sankranti one fortnight or a whole month, so that the coordination of the tropical, the sidereal systems including the luanr seasons occur. > Thus in our soli-lunar system the coordinated approach is abslutely necessary.But many people, not able to understand this coordination between the tropical, sidereal and lunar natures, think our sytem is either tropical or sidereal only. This is their short sightedness. > In fact so few people understand it that way, that I feel, the concept of the western tropical system and in opposition to it the indefinitely nirayan system has cropped up.Both are in the dark concerning our comprehensive or cooridinated system.This comprehensive system may be called as the lunar tropical system if you like, which incudes the sidereal system for aboout 1000 to 2000 years. > I hope I have given some idea of the vedic system which is both sidereal and tropical at the same time. > At the present time, we have to shift the rashis by 30 degreees backwards and thus both the solar and the lunar months in a coordinated way, so that the true spirit of the Vedas is fulfilled.This is the gist of the calendar reform movement presently being carried out. > thanking you,I remain, > Sincerly yours, > Hari Malla > > , " zaobnali " zaob16@ wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I do not believe in a subjective reality. I believe that A equals A and > > that A does not equal B. > > > > I do know the meaning of the word Rashi . I was referring to their > > attributes. Thank you for your kind words. > > > > Sri Yukteswar advocated science and the use of logic. He has also met > > with tremendous opposition due to his attempt to align holidays with > > objective realities and due to the face that he was not born brahmin. > > > > Thank you for those of who filled the test. > > > > Boaz > > > > > > , sunil_bhattacharjya@ > > wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > So it appears that you are not aware that Rashi is mentioned in the > > Vedanga Jyotisha, which is an ancient text. Secondly it also appears > > that you are not aware of the genesis and etymology of the word Rashi. > > Why don't you see a Sanskrit dictionary before talking about Rashi? You > > will find there that Rashi means a group. In Indian Jyotish shastra > > Rashis are groups of fixed Nakshatras and they cannot move. The > > Tropical Zodiac later on took the word Rashi from the Sidereal Zodiac as > > they could not coin an apprprpiate word for for the 12 divisions for the > > moving Tropical Zodiac. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > zaobnali zaob16@ > > > Re: Test of tropical versus > > sidereal zodiac > > > > > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 9:49 PM > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > I think it is important to understand conceptually what the rasis > > mean. The rasis, for example, have certain qualities, mobile, fixed and > > mutable, as well as the four elements. These qualities 3x4 = 12 rasis. > > The Sun sets these qualities in motion and the tropical zodiac is Sun > > based. The moveable signs Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn coincide > > with the solstices and equinoxes. In addition it turns out that the > > ancient scripts actually seem to suggest that the rishis used the > > tropical zodiac (see Ernst's article on Ayanamsha). It may be that the > > sidereal zodiac will eventually be proven correct but we can not ignore > > the tropical zodiac and the reasoning behind, which is why such studies > > are important. > > > > > > Thanks > > > Boaz > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil > > Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > The positions of all the nine grahas in the Tropical Zodiac are > > ayanamsha-corrected in the Sidereal Zodiac. So this means the a > > reoriented Tropical Ziodiac fits in the Sidereal Zodiac and the > > interaction between the grahas based on the angles relative to each > > other are the same in both the Zodiacs. On top of it the Sidereal Zodiac > > takes into account the additional effects of the Nakshatras. So in my > > opinion the Sidereal predictions are bound to be more precise. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sunl K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > zaobnali zaob16@ > > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus > > sidereal zodiac > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 4:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > Glad to join this forum. > > > > > > > > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to > > determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better. > > Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are > > encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing > > some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the > > test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on > > all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred > > more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal > > the results to you all. > > > > > > > > http://www.isjyotis h.com/ > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Boaz > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 The propogators who wish to bring about a change in ayanamsha , I request them to please do so , and give us examples and future predictions in this Group, so that we can get ready proof of the advantage of the change in ayanamsha which they wish to bring about is right. (None of them will be able to do so. They are all experts in writing lengthy articles full of nonsense, but practical utility is " None " . ) P,lease give us 5 future predictions on a international native, Political, or whatever you wish to, with your change of ayanamsha. If You cant do this, then shut uip, and let everybody use whatever ayanamsha they wish to. As regards to change in calendar dates, this nonsense must be taken to the Policy and Calendar makers of India. What is the use of bickering continously in a astrological forum? Do we fix the festival dates ? Or Do You ? If you do, then what are your credentials ? Ypou have nobody else to listen to you, so you come with your garbage to astrologers who are in the job of predicting with Horoscopes and not in Calendar or Panchanga making ? Why dont you have enough ammunitions to take your garbage to the right corridors ? Why do you wish to dump it on astrologers who use wrong ayanamsha and have nothing to do with Panchanga making here ? Speak. Clarify. But dont write 20 page mails. Bhaskar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Dear Boaz ji,If I may intervene...a late comer to this discussion, I find this quite interesting. Hence let me submit birth data, for which I invite you or anyone else to analyze using Sayana/Nirayana chart. Natal Chart September 17, 1864Time: 6:52:00Time Zone: 5:30:00 (East of GMT)Place: 79 E 50' 00", 6 N 55' 00" Colombo, Sri LankaBy the way,//The fact that majority of Indian people are practicing thesidereal zodiac does not validate it//......and neither does it invalidate it ...right?Anyone can treat this as a blind chart and analyze as per their preferences in ayanamsa calculations.blessings,Renu , "zaobnali" <zaob16 wrote:>> Dear Sunil,> > Ernst's work makes sense to me. It is my understanding that the ancient> texts have not been preserved without corruption and people like Ernst> are trying to carry tests in order to validate one interpretation or> another. The fact that majority of Indian people are practicing the> sidereal zodiac does not validate it. Similarly mid age most Europeans> believed the world is flat following Church tradition and dogma. I don't> know enough about the origin of Yamakoti. Please ask Ernst for his> opinion. Thanks.> > Best,> Boaz> > > , "sunil nair"> astro_tellerkerala@ wrote:> >> >> > dear zaobnali ji> >> > It is happy to know that u r a scientist ,astrology is not a science> in> > physical sense of science which demands 2+2 is 4 ,then u may hav to go> > disappointed> >> > Astrology is a sastra which has its own rules to arrive at its results> > ,it has nothing in common with modern science .even science agrees or> > not ,or if it agree tomorrow it is not our problem .> >> > if some one dont understand a ancient treatise it doesnot allow him to> > deviate frm what was traditionaly being practised ( he can do what> ever> > way he feels like but no right to teach or spread a misconception as> > reserch or some thing ) ,even if we cannot answer u also doesnot> means> > it does giv u authority to say that astrology which is practised by> > major section of india is wrong .> >> > i would like to point out 4 cities mentioned in surya sidhantha in the> > article by earnest ji ( he thinks it is some real places )> >> > yamakoti ,romaka ,sidhapuri and Lanka ( to locate 4 quadrants )> >> > did u try to locate it ?? lanka is a name still avilable ?? what was> > result ?? why dont u take it as a pointer ??> > Also do u know one thing the gypsies who still claims of indian origin> > in european countries they calls themself as ROMA tribe ,why ?? it> says> > they carried lot of information to western countries ??Why dont u> equate> > them with roma a ancient empire ??Romaka real meaning in sanskrit is> > hairy ( roma means hair ,so may b some grp of ppl who has long hairs> as> > a fashion --i just suggesting a diffrnt meaning ,so now what u think> > this ancient romaka sidhantha is came frm rome or ppl of romaka> > country/group /tribe or rishi kula in india itself or a rishi who was> > being called as Romaka ??> >> > all this names are fictious Names used for calculating a mathematical> > model than anything to do with real cities/country .> > so u shud understand that the basic problem is understanding the> reality> > ,there may b 1000 commentaries even the best among them also may b> > faulty ,where as truth will b one and one only> >> > The problem is our misundestanding to identify truth .> >> > thanks for ur time> >> > rgrds sunil nair> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Dear Hari Malla, I don't fully follow your argument. I think the rashis should be defined consistently mathematically according to some principle be it nirayan or sayana. The soli-lunar correction are usually performed to align the chandra calendar with the solar one. Could you clarify what it means to have one's say Mercury in Libra according to your system. Thanks Boaz , " harimalla " <harimalla wrote: > > > Dear Mr. Boaz, > I am in agreement with you.But my simple request is in our soli-lunar system,it is not enough to take the solar viewpoint only.The present tropical view point you are mentioning is purely solar season only.To this we also have to combine the lunar seasonal viewpoint too.Thus even in astrology, we not only take the lagan rashi, but also the chandra rashi and combine both.Thus unless there is coordination of the lagan rashi and lunar rashi, astrology is not complete.For this, we should have coordination of the solar and the lunar seasons.This combination requires that the system remain nirayan for 1000 to 2000 years.Then after that priod it is necessary to apply calender reform by shifting the nirayan sankranti one fortnight or a whole month, so that the coordination of the tropical, the sidereal systems including the luanr seasons occur. > Thus in our soli-lunar system the coordinated approach is abslutely necessary.But many people, not able to understand this coordination between the tropical, sidereal and lunar natures, think our sytem is either tropical or sidereal only. This is their short sightedness. > In fact so few people understand it that way, that I feel, the concept of the western tropical system and in opposition to it the indefinitely nirayan system has cropped up.Both are in the dark concerning our comprehensive or cooridinated system.This comprehensive system may be called as the lunar tropical system if you like, which incudes the sidereal system for aboout 1000 to 2000 years. > I hope I have given some idea of the vedic system which is both sidereal and tropical at the same time. > At the present time, we have to shift the rashis by 30 degreees backwards and thus both the solar and the lunar months in a coordinated way, so that the true spirit of the Vedas is fulfilled.This is the gist of the calendar reform movement presently being carried out. > thanking you,I remain, > Sincerly yours, > Hari Malla > > , " zaobnali " <zaob16@> wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I do not believe in a subjective reality. I believe that A equals A and > > that A does not equal B. > > > > I do know the meaning of the word Rashi . I was referring to their > > attributes. Thank you for your kind words. > > > > Sri Yukteswar advocated science and the use of logic. He has also met > > with tremendous opposition due to his attempt to align holidays with > > objective realities and due to the face that he was not born brahmin. > > > > Thank you for those of who filled the test. > > > > Boaz > > > > > > , sunil_bhattacharjya@ > > wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > So it appears that you are not aware that Rashi is mentioned in the > > Vedanga Jyotisha, which is an ancient text. Secondly it also appears > > that you are not aware of the genesis and etymology of the word Rashi. > > Why don't you see a Sanskrit dictionary before talking about Rashi? You > > will find there that Rashi means a group. In Indian Jyotish shastra > > Rashis are groups of fixed Nakshatras and they cannot move. The > > Tropical Zodiac later on took the word Rashi from the Sidereal Zodiac as > > they could not coin an apprprpiate word for for the 12 divisions for the > > moving Tropical Zodiac. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > zaobnali zaob16@ > > > Re: Test of tropical versus > > sidereal zodiac > > > > > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 9:49 PM > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > I think it is important to understand conceptually what the rasis > > mean. The rasis, for example, have certain qualities, mobile, fixed and > > mutable, as well as the four elements. These qualities 3x4 = 12 rasis. > > The Sun sets these qualities in motion and the tropical zodiac is Sun > > based. The moveable signs Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn coincide > > with the solstices and equinoxes. In addition it turns out that the > > ancient scripts actually seem to suggest that the rishis used the > > tropical zodiac (see Ernst's article on Ayanamsha). It may be that the > > sidereal zodiac will eventually be proven correct but we can not ignore > > the tropical zodiac and the reasoning behind, which is why such studies > > are important. > > > > > > Thanks > > > Boaz > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil > > Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > The positions of all the nine grahas in the Tropical Zodiac are > > ayanamsha-corrected in the Sidereal Zodiac. So this means the a > > reoriented Tropical Ziodiac fits in the Sidereal Zodiac and the > > interaction between the grahas based on the angles relative to each > > other are the same in both the Zodiacs. On top of it the Sidereal Zodiac > > takes into account the additional effects of the Nakshatras. So in my > > opinion the Sidereal predictions are bound to be more precise. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sunl K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > zaobnali zaob16@ > > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus > > sidereal zodiac > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 4:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > Glad to join this forum. > > > > > > > > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to > > determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better. > > Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are > > encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing > > some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the > > test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on > > all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred > > more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal > > the results to you all. > > > > > > > > http://www.isjyotis h.com/ > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Boaz > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Dear Renu, I don't do charts. In addition I don't fully believe in astrology yet other than that the system appears profound. I have been reading and following forums for the past 4 years and have not yet seen a single prediction which impressed me. I think there is a lot of research to be done. I was about to give up on astrology before happening to find Ernst's material. He may have not pinned down everything either but at least he is very scholarly, open and sincere. He makes sense to me and I am very interested in his findings. I am open to the possibility that some people are highly intuitive and can make predictions using coffee marks or whatever ayanamsha but I am seeking philosocphical/mathematical basis to astrology. I don't live off of it - it is a special interest of mine as a means to understand the laws of world creation and maintainance. Boaz , " renunw " <renunw wrote: > > Dear Boaz ji, > > If I may intervene...a late comer to this discussion, I find this quite > interesting. Hence let me submit birth data, for which I invite you or > anyone else to analyze using Sayana/Nirayana chart. > > Natal Chart > > September 17, 1864 > Time: 6:52:00 > Time Zone: 5:30:00 (East of GMT) > Place: 79 E 50' 00 " , 6 N 55' 00 " > Colombo, Sri Lanka > > > By the way, > > //The fact that majority of Indian people are practicing the > sidereal zodiac does not validate it//......and neither does it > invalidate it ...right? > > Anyone can treat this as a blind chart and analyze as per their > preferences in ayanamsa calculations. > > blessings, > > Renu > > > > > > , " zaobnali " zaob16@ > wrote: > > > > Dear Sunil, > > > > Ernst's work makes sense to me. It is my understanding that the > ancient > > texts have not been preserved without corruption and people like Ernst > > are trying to carry tests in order to validate one interpretation or > > another. The fact that majority of Indian people are practicing the > > sidereal zodiac does not validate it. Similarly mid age most Europeans > > believed the world is flat following Church tradition and dogma. I > don't > > know enough about the origin of Yamakoti. Please ask Ernst for his > > opinion. Thanks. > > > > Best, > > Boaz > > > > > > , " sunil nair " > > astro_tellerkerala@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > dear zaobnali ji > > > > > > It is happy to know that u r a scientist ,astrology is not a science > > in > > > physical sense of science which demands 2+2 is 4 ,then u may hav to > go > > > disappointed > > > > > > Astrology is a sastra which has its own rules to arrive at its > results > > > ,it has nothing in common with modern science .even science agrees > or > > > not ,or if it agree tomorrow it is not our problem . > > > > > > if some one dont understand a ancient treatise it doesnot allow him > to > > > deviate frm what was traditionaly being practised ( he can do what > > ever > > > way he feels like but no right to teach or spread a misconception > as > > > reserch or some thing ) ,even if we cannot answer u also doesnot > > means > > > it does giv u authority to say that astrology which is practised by > > > major section of india is wrong . > > > > > > i would like to point out 4 cities mentioned in surya sidhantha in > the > > > article by earnest ji ( he thinks it is some real places ) > > > > > > yamakoti ,romaka ,sidhapuri and Lanka ( to locate 4 quadrants ) > > > > > > did u try to locate it ?? lanka is a name still avilable ?? what > was > > > result ?? why dont u take it as a pointer ?? > > > Also do u know one thing the gypsies who still claims of indian > origin > > > in european countries they calls themself as ROMA tribe ,why ?? it > > says > > > they carried lot of information to western countries ??Why dont u > > equate > > > them with roma a ancient empire ??Romaka real meaning in sanskrit is > > > hairy ( roma means hair ,so may b some grp of ppl who has long hairs > > as > > > a fashion --i just suggesting a diffrnt meaning ,so now what u think > > > this ancient romaka sidhantha is came frm rome or ppl of romaka > > > country/group /tribe or rishi kula in india itself or a rishi who > was > > > being called as Romaka ?? > > > > > > all this names are fictious Names used for calculating a > mathematical > > > model than anything to do with real cities/country . > > > so u shud understand that the basic problem is understanding the > > reality > > > ,there may b 1000 commentaries even the best among them also may b > > > faulty ,where as truth will b one and one only > > > > > > The problem is our misundestanding to identify truth . > > > > > > thanks for ur time > > > > > > rgrds sunil nair > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 Hello, You said: I do not know the meaning of the word Rashi. I wasreferring to their attributes. Unquote I like your frank admission that you do not know the meaning of the word Rashi. Unless you know the real meaning you cannot know the real attributes of Rashi. First thing first. In my opinion if you want to talk about Rashi you should get to know the meaning of the word Rashi. Sincerely, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Sat, 5/16/09, zaobnali <zaob16 wrote: zaobnali <zaob16 Re: Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac Saturday, May 16, 2009, 5:36 AM Hello, I do not believe in a subjective reality. I believe that A equals A and that A does not equal B. I do know the meaning of the word Rashi . I was referring to their attributes. Thank you for your kind words. Sri Yukteswar advocated science and the use of logic. He has also met with tremendous opposition due to his attempt to align holidays with objective realities and due to the face that he was not born brahmin. Thank you for those of who filled the test. Boaz ancient_indian_ astrology, sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Hello, > > So it appears that you are not aware that Rashi is mentioned in the Vedanga Jyotisha, which is an ancient text. Secondly it also appears that you are not aware of the genesis and etymology of the word Rashi. Why don't you see a Sanskrit dictionary before talking about Rashi? You will find there that Rashi means a group. In Indian Jyotish shastra Rashis are groups of fixed Nakshatras and they cannot move. The Tropical Zodiac later on took the word Rashi from the Sidereal Zodiac as they could not coin an apprprpiate word for for the 12 divisions for the moving Tropical Zodiac. > > Sincerely, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16 wrote: > > > zaobnali zaob16 > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac > ancient_indian_ astrology > Friday, May 15, 2009, 9:49 PM > > Hello, > > I think it is important to understand conceptually what the rasis mean. The rasis, for example, have certain qualities, mobile, fixed and mutable, as well as the four elements. These qualities 3x4 = 12 rasis. The Sun sets these qualities in motion and the tropical zodiac is Sun based. The moveable signs Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn coincide with the solstices and equinoxes. In addition it turns out that the ancient scripts actually seem to suggest that the rishis used the tropical zodiac (see Ernst's article on Ayanamsha). It may be that the sidereal zodiac will eventually be proven correct but we can not ignore the tropical zodiac and the reasoning behind, which is why such studies are important. > > Thanks > Boaz > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > Dear All, > > > > The positions of all the nine grahas in the Tropical Zodiac are ayanamsha-corrected in the Sidereal Zodiac. So this means the a reoriented Tropical Ziodiac fits in the Sidereal Zodiac and the interaction between the grahas based on the angles relative to each other are the same in both the Zodiacs. On top of it the Sidereal Zodiac takes into account the additional effects of the Nakshatras. So in my opinion the Sidereal predictions are bound to be more precise. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunl K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote: > > > > > > zaobnali zaob16@ > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 4:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > Glad to join this forum. > > > > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better. Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal the results to you all. > > > > http://www.isjyotis h.com/ > > > > Thanks, > > Boaz > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 Please read my message carefully. You may notice a small but nevertheless important extra word that you inserted into my sentence........ Whats going on this forum? , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Hello, > > You said: > > I do not know the meaning of the word Rashi. I wasreferring to their attributes. > > Unquote > > I like your frank admission that you do not know the meaning of the word Rashi. Unless you know the real meaning you cannot know the real attributes of Rashi. First thing first. In my opinion if you want to talk about Rashi you should get to know the meaning of the word Rashi. > > Sincerely, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Sat, 5/16/09, zaobnali <zaob16 wrote: > > > zaobnali <zaob16 > Re: Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac > > Saturday, May 16, 2009, 5:36 AM > > Hello, > > I do not believe in a subjective reality. I believe that A equals A and > that A does not equal B. > > I do know the meaning of the word Rashi . I was referring to their > attributes. Thank you for your kind words. > > Sri Yukteswar advocated science and the use of logic. He has also met > with tremendous opposition due to his attempt to align holidays with > objective realities and due to the face that he was not born brahmin. > > Thank you for those of who filled the test. > > Boaz > > ancient_indian_ astrology, sunil_bhattacharjya > wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > So it appears that you are not aware that Rashi is mentioned in the > Vedanga Jyotisha, which is an ancient text. Secondly it also appears > that you are not aware of the genesis and etymology of the word Rashi. > Why don't you see a Sanskrit dictionary before talking about Rashi? You > will find there that Rashi means a group. In Indian Jyotish shastra > Rashis are groups of fixed Nakshatras and they cannot move. The > Tropical Zodiac later on took the word Rashi from the Sidereal Zodiac as > they could not coin an apprprpiate word for for the 12 divisions for the > moving Tropical Zodiac. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote: > > > > > > zaobnali zaob16@ > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Test of tropical versus > sidereal zodiac > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 9:49 PM > > > > Hello, > > > > I think it is important to understand conceptually what the rasis > mean. The rasis, for example, have certain qualities, mobile, fixed and > mutable, as well as the four elements. These qualities 3x4 = 12 rasis. > The Sun sets these qualities in motion and the tropical zodiac is Sun > based. The moveable signs Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn coincide > with the solstices and equinoxes. In addition it turns out that the > ancient scripts actually seem to suggest that the rishis used the > tropical zodiac (see Ernst's article on Ayanamsha). It may be that the > sidereal zodiac will eventually be proven correct but we can not ignore > the tropical zodiac and the reasoning behind, which is why such studies > are important. > > > > Thanks > > Boaz > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil > Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > The positions of all the nine grahas in the Tropical Zodiac are > ayanamsha-corrected in the Sidereal Zodiac. So this means the a > reoriented Tropical Ziodiac fits in the Sidereal Zodiac and the > interaction between the grahas based on the angles relative to each > other are the same in both the Zodiacs. On top of it the Sidereal Zodiac > takes into account the additional effects of the Nakshatras. So in my > opinion the Sidereal predictions are bound to be more precise. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sunl K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > zaobnali zaob16@ > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus > sidereal zodiac > > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 4:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > Glad to join this forum. > > > > > > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to > determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better. > Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are > encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing > some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the > test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on > all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred > more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal > the results to you all. > > > > > > http://www.isjyotis h.com/ > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Boaz > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 Dear Harimallaji, Calendar-making is not a layman's job. Layman follows the calendar made by the experts. So you cannot sacrifice rigorous treatment just to simplify the process for making of calendar. In my last mail I asked you a simple question but you have not replied to that. Please do not evade this important question. Nirayana Makar Rashi and that Sayana Makar Rashi cannot always start at the same time. Therefore they need not necessarily always be in the same fullmoon zone. In fact the Nirayana Makar rashi is the real Makar Rashi. The Sayana Makar Rashi shifts due to precession and once you attempt to reply to that question you will realise that you are making improper assumptions. So please reply to that question first. I repeat below your statement and my question to that : > Quote> > The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two.> > Unquote> > Vedic reference please?I I am waiting for your reply with Vedic reference as to where it is said that the two Sankrantis are to be in the same fullmoon zone. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Sat, 5/16/09, harimalla <harimalla wrote: harimalla <harimalla Re: Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 6:01 AM Dear Bhattacharjyaji,Namaskar! Study of vedic calender practice and the vedic calendar reform paractice are both important for ascertaining this fact, that both the sayan and nirayan sankrantis should be within the same fullmoon zone.Once a person knows this for sure, calendar reform becomes a easy job.Lack of this study has troubled the modern hindus between the unending dispute between sayan and nirayan systems.The vedic system is simultaneously sayan(tropical) and nirayan(sidereal) .Many people wonder how it can be both sayan and nirayan at the same time.That is to be understood by concentration and careful analysis of our vedic soli-lunar calendar; that is the compreheensive vedic method of calendar practice and reform both.We should be conversant with the simultaneity of three factors- the sayan sankranti,the nirayan sankranti and the lunar uttrayan or vshuvat dates.The coordination of the three was always done in the past.Only in the modern times we are faltering on how to accomplish it.This is due to modern western influence of solar sayan (tropical) dates, which has given rise to the two camps of thought, sidereal and tropical.By analysing vedanga jyotish system of how the five year yuga,the semi sidereal lunar month of magha, the tropical lunar Tapa sukla pratipada and uttrayan can start simutaneously for nearly 1700 years from 1400 BC to 285 AD, when the sun and the moon were in dhanistha, we can understand our system well.This is how we analyse.The nirayan sankranti was- sun in dhanistha all that period.The tropicallunar Tapa sukla pratipada fluctuated from the first of makar rashi to the end of rashi, as you well know. Magha sukla pratipada does that even today, fluctuating during the nearly three year period cycle( form adhimas to adhimas)over the whole month of magha from the first to the last of the month.This was the lunar uttrayan date.Again over that whole period, the sayan sankranti representing tropical uttrayan travelled over 7 padas of makar rashi, from the beginning of dhanistha nakshyatra to the beginning of makar rashi.In short, the uttrayan lunar pratipada embraced both the sayan uttarayan and nirayan uttarayan for that period and thus coordinating both.Thus the formula is- the lunar uttarayan date should coordinate both the sayan sankranti and the nirayan sankrantis.When Barah mihir and others did calendar reform, they maintained the old vedanga sytem of haveing both the sayan sankranti and the nirayan sankranti by the lunar uttayan which was shifted to poush fullmoon.At present the uttarayan lunar date being still Poush purnima, it should have coordinated both the sayan uttarayan sankranti and the nirayan uttrayan sankranti (makar sankti) by touching both within the three year period of the fluctuation of the adhimaas,although, it did served this purpose for about 1100 years after 285AD till the early 15th. century.But after that it has stopped coordinating the two sankrantis, when the ayanamsa increased more than 15 degrees.Thus to bring about the same situation of coordination, we have to shift the nirayan sankranti by 30 degrees, so we maintain our present nirayan rashi system relevant in our soli-lunar system now also.This method keeps alive the rules of our nirayan astrology and the present dharma shastras intact, the way it is supposed to be.We don't have to change a single word in our shastras.We only change the ayansamsa from 24 degrees ot -6 degrees and bring our calender back to its solar and lunar seasons and dates.Many people think we do not have to bother about the seasons.If we are not to bother about the seasons, then why do we have the adhimas in the first place.Is it not to actualise the lunar seasons that we have the adhimas? Is it not because the Moslems do not have adhimas that they have no lunar seasons.Why do we call our Dashehara festivals 'Sharad navaratra' if it should not fall in sharad ritu. Thus if our calendar is to be vedic, how can it forget our dharma shastra.Is veda not our dharma only? Of ocurse astrology should also continue smoothly.But the best method seems now to let astrology have its freedom whether to use the old rashis or the reformedd new epochal rashis, which in my view would be more acurate.But till faith develops in the new epochal rashis, those who want may continue with the old rashis itsslef.But they sould not be a hindrance to the reformation of our vedic calender. The festivals are their dharma as well .Regards,Hari Mallaancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:>> > Quote> > The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two.> > Unquote> > Vedic reference please?> > -SIKB> > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Hari Malla <harimalla@. ..> wrote:> > > Hari Malla <harimalla@. ..>> Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac> ancient_indian_ astrology> Friday, May 15, 2009, 5:50 AM> > > > > > > > > > > Dear Boaz,> This indeed is a good news.The result will surely be exciting.After the result please intimate about it to us all.> But one thing is certain which we must all know.Both tropical and sidereal zodiacs are necessary for the vedic astrology.The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two.This is known by the experts of vedic calendar( Dharma shastris).The very word vedic means concerning dharma shastras.So no matter what the result, the only way to save vedic jyotish is by shifting all the rashis by 30 degrees by the sayan or the tropical way and apply the nirayan system for another 1500 to 2000 years.This is in accordance with the vedanga jyotish principles.This is the only traditinal way to reform.It is a foregone conclusion, if any one wants ot come to lasting solution.> regards,> Hari Malla> > > > > > zaobnali <zaob16 (AT) gmail (DOT) com>> ancient_indian_ astrology> Friday, May 15, 2009 5:12:03 PM> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac> > > > Dear All, > > Glad to join this forum.> > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better. Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal the results to you all. > > http://www.isjyotis h.com/> > Thanks,> Boaz>ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:>> > Quote> > The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two.> > Unquote> > Vedic reference please?> > -SIKB> > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Hari Malla <harimalla@. ..> wrote:> > > Hari Malla <harimalla@. ..>> Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac> ancient_indian_ astrology> Friday, May 15, 2009, 5:50 AM> > > > > > > > > > > Dear Boaz,> This indeed is a good news.The result will surely be exciting.After the result please intimate about it to us all.> But one thing is certain which we must all know.Both tropical and sidereal zodiacs are necessary for the vedic astrology.The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two.This is known by the experts of vedic calendar( Dharma shastris).The very word vedic means concerning dharma shastras.So no matter what the result, the only way to save vedic jyotish is by shifting all the rashis by 30 degrees by the sayan or the tropical way and apply the nirayan system for another 1500 to 2000 years.This is in accordance with the vedanga jyotish principles.This is the only traditinal way to reform.It is a foregone conclusion, if any one wants ot come to lasting solution.> regards,> Hari Malla> > > > > > zaobnali <zaob16 (AT) gmail (DOT) com>> ancient_indian_ astrology> Friday, May 15, 2009 5:12:03 PM> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac> > > > Dear All, > > Glad to join this forum.> > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better. Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal the results to you all. > > http://www.isjyotis h.com/> > Thanks,> Boaz> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 Dear Mr. Boaz, After the correction, the name of present Libra becomes Scorpio and Mercury instead of being in Libra will be in Scorpio. From the tropical viewpoint, the present Pisces has become 80 precent Aries, ayanamsa being nearly 24 degrees.This is the coordinated soli-lunar correction.This correction is demanded by the present equinox being closeer to the first point (sankranti) of Meen(Pisces) and not near the first of point of Mesh(Aries).Since we have to take the joint consideration of the sun and the moon both,it is high time to shift the soli-lunar sidereal rashi by thirty degrees i.e. the new name of the epochal Mesh(epochal sidereal Aries) is to be given to the present Meen (original Pisces). This is the necessaity of joint soli-lunar calender.This is to honour the lunar dates equal to or a little more than to the solar dates.This is the rule of dharmas shastras, when the lunar dates are given priority.After the correction the sidereal rashis become more accurate in the joint soli- lunar prediction in astrology and the religioius festivals are also celebrated at the correct lunar season and date.At present the link between the lunar date and the solar date has broken.The intended limit of the rule of adhimas has been violated.It has become something like the moslem lunar date without lunar seasons. After the correction the predictions are expected to be more accurate in the soli-lunar sense or the joint lagan-lunar rashi.Thanking you, Regards, Hari Malla , " zaobnali " <zaob16 wrote: > > Dear Hari Malla, > > I don't fully follow your argument. I think the rashis should be defined consistently mathematically according to some principle be it nirayan or sayana. The soli-lunar correction are usually performed to align the chandra calendar with the solar one. Could you clarify what it means to have one's say Mercury in Libra according to your system. > > Thanks > Boaz > > , " harimalla@ " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mr. Boaz, > > I am in agreement with you.But my simple request is in our soli-lunar system,it is not enough to take the solar viewpoint only.The present tropical view point you are mentioning is purely solar season only.To this we also have to combine the lunar seasonal viewpoint too.Thus even in astrology, we not only take the lagan rashi, but also the chandra rashi and combine both.Thus unless there is coordination of the lagan rashi and lunar rashi, astrology is not complete.For this, we should have coordination of the solar and the lunar seasons.This combination requires that the system remain nirayan for 1000 to 2000 years.Then after that priod it is necessary to apply calender reform by shifting the nirayan sankranti one fortnight or a whole month, so that the coordination of the tropical, the sidereal systems including the luanr seasons occur. > > Thus in our soli-lunar system the coordinated approach is abslutely necessary.But many people, not able to understand this coordination between the tropical, sidereal and lunar natures, think our sytem is either tropical or sidereal only. This is their short sightedness. > > In fact so few people understand it that way, that I feel, the concept of the western tropical system and in opposition to it the indefinitely nirayan system has cropped up.Both are in the dark concerning our comprehensive or cooridinated system.This comprehensive system may be called as the lunar tropical system if you like, which incudes the sidereal system for aboout 1000 to 2000 years. > > I hope I have given some idea of the vedic system which is both sidereal and tropical at the same time. > > At the present time, we have to shift the rashis by 30 degreees backwards and thus both the solar and the lunar months in a coordinated way, so that the true spirit of the Vedas is fulfilled.This is the gist of the calendar reform movement presently being carried out. > > thanking you,I remain, > > Sincerly yours, > > Hari Malla > > > > , " zaobnali " <zaob16@> wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > I do not believe in a subjective reality. I believe that A equals A and > > > that A does not equal B. > > > > > > I do know the meaning of the word Rashi . I was referring to their > > > attributes. Thank you for your kind words. > > > > > > Sri Yukteswar advocated science and the use of logic. He has also met > > > with tremendous opposition due to his attempt to align holidays with > > > objective realities and due to the face that he was not born brahmin. > > > > > > Thank you for those of who filled the test. > > > > > > Boaz > > > > > > > > > , sunil_bhattacharjya@ > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > So it appears that you are not aware that Rashi is mentioned in the > > > Vedanga Jyotisha, which is an ancient text. Secondly it also appears > > > that you are not aware of the genesis and etymology of the word Rashi. > > > Why don't you see a Sanskrit dictionary before talking about Rashi? You > > > will find there that Rashi means a group. In Indian Jyotish shastra > > > Rashis are groups of fixed Nakshatras and they cannot move. The > > > Tropical Zodiac later on took the word Rashi from the Sidereal Zodiac as > > > they could not coin an apprprpiate word for for the 12 divisions for the > > > moving Tropical Zodiac. > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > zaobnali zaob16@ > > > > Re: Test of tropical versus > > > sidereal zodiac > > > > > > > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 9:49 PM > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > I think it is important to understand conceptually what the rasis > > > mean. The rasis, for example, have certain qualities, mobile, fixed and > > > mutable, as well as the four elements. These qualities 3x4 = 12 rasis. > > > The Sun sets these qualities in motion and the tropical zodiac is Sun > > > based. The moveable signs Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn coincide > > > with the solstices and equinoxes. In addition it turns out that the > > > ancient scripts actually seem to suggest that the rishis used the > > > tropical zodiac (see Ernst's article on Ayanamsha). It may be that the > > > sidereal zodiac will eventually be proven correct but we can not ignore > > > the tropical zodiac and the reasoning behind, which is why such studies > > > are important. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Boaz > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil > > > Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > > > The positions of all the nine grahas in the Tropical Zodiac are > > > ayanamsha-corrected in the Sidereal Zodiac. So this means the a > > > reoriented Tropical Ziodiac fits in the Sidereal Zodiac and the > > > interaction between the grahas based on the angles relative to each > > > other are the same in both the Zodiacs. On top of it the Sidereal Zodiac > > > takes into account the additional effects of the Nakshatras. So in my > > > opinion the Sidereal predictions are bound to be more precise. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Sunl K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > zaobnali zaob16@ > > > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus > > > sidereal zodiac > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > > > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 4:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > > > Glad to join this forum. > > > > > > > > > > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to > > > determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better. > > > Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are > > > encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing > > > some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the > > > test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on > > > all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred > > > more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal > > > the results to you all. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.isjyotis h.com/ > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Boaz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 Dear Hari Malla, Thank you for clarifying. The idea is interesting but it introduces some arbitrariness to the ayanamsha in my opinion. The tropcial and sidereal seem to be supported by certain principles. The latter zodiac is partitioned into 12 swathes of the sky according to a symbolic rulership and attributes. The former zodiac is set by the apparent tilt/course (ayana) of the Sun throughout the year. Your system somehow combines both principles by introducing a discontinuous shift of the zodiac each time the precession of the equinox crosses the midpoint of the tropcial sign. I am not ruling out your idea but it doesn't really make sense to me. Its interesting though. Boaz , " harimalla " <harimalla wrote: > > > Dear Mr. Boaz, > After the correction, the name of present Libra becomes Scorpio and Mercury instead of being in Libra will be in Scorpio. From the tropical viewpoint, the present Pisces has become 80 precent Aries, ayanamsa being nearly 24 degrees.This is the coordinated soli-lunar correction.This correction is demanded by the present equinox being closeer to the first point (sankranti) of Meen(Pisces) and not near the first of point of Mesh(Aries).Since we have to take the joint consideration of the sun and the moon both,it is high time to shift the soli-lunar sidereal rashi by thirty degrees i.e. the new name of the epochal Mesh(epochal sidereal Aries) is to be given to the present Meen (original Pisces). > This is the necessaity of joint soli-lunar calender.This is to honour the lunar dates equal to or a little more than to the solar dates.This is the rule of dharmas shastras, when the lunar dates are given priority.After the correction the sidereal rashis become more accurate in the joint soli- lunar prediction in astrology and the religioius festivals are also celebrated at the correct lunar season and date.At present the link between the lunar date and the solar date has broken.The intended limit of the rule of adhimas has been violated.It has become something like the moslem lunar date without lunar seasons. After the correction the predictions are expected to be more accurate in the soli-lunar sense or the joint lagan-lunar rashi.Thanking you, > Regards, > Hari Malla > > , " zaobnali " <zaob16@> wrote: > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > I don't fully follow your argument. I think the rashis should be defined consistently mathematically according to some principle be it nirayan or sayana. The soli-lunar correction are usually performed to align the chandra calendar with the solar one. Could you clarify what it means to have one's say Mercury in Libra according to your system. > > > > Thanks > > Boaz > > > > , " harimalla@ " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Mr. Boaz, > > > I am in agreement with you.But my simple request is in our soli-lunar system,it is not enough to take the solar viewpoint only.The present tropical view point you are mentioning is purely solar season only.To this we also have to combine the lunar seasonal viewpoint too.Thus even in astrology, we not only take the lagan rashi, but also the chandra rashi and combine both.Thus unless there is coordination of the lagan rashi and lunar rashi, astrology is not complete.For this, we should have coordination of the solar and the lunar seasons.This combination requires that the system remain nirayan for 1000 to 2000 years.Then after that priod it is necessary to apply calender reform by shifting the nirayan sankranti one fortnight or a whole month, so that the coordination of the tropical, the sidereal systems including the luanr seasons occur. > > > Thus in our soli-lunar system the coordinated approach is abslutely necessary.But many people, not able to understand this coordination between the tropical, sidereal and lunar natures, think our sytem is either tropical or sidereal only. This is their short sightedness. > > > In fact so few people understand it that way, that I feel, the concept of the western tropical system and in opposition to it the indefinitely nirayan system has cropped up.Both are in the dark concerning our comprehensive or cooridinated system.This comprehensive system may be called as the lunar tropical system if you like, which incudes the sidereal system for aboout 1000 to 2000 years. > > > I hope I have given some idea of the vedic system which is both sidereal and tropical at the same time. > > > At the present time, we have to shift the rashis by 30 degreees backwards and thus both the solar and the lunar months in a coordinated way, so that the true spirit of the Vedas is fulfilled.This is the gist of the calendar reform movement presently being carried out. > > > thanking you,I remain, > > > Sincerly yours, > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > , " zaobnali " <zaob16@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > I do not believe in a subjective reality. I believe that A equals A and > > > > that A does not equal B. > > > > > > > > I do know the meaning of the word Rashi . I was referring to their > > > > attributes. Thank you for your kind words. > > > > > > > > Sri Yukteswar advocated science and the use of logic. He has also met > > > > with tremendous opposition due to his attempt to align holidays with > > > > objective realities and due to the face that he was not born brahmin. > > > > > > > > Thank you for those of who filled the test. > > > > > > > > Boaz > > > > > > > > > > > > , sunil_bhattacharjya@ > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > So it appears that you are not aware that Rashi is mentioned in the > > > > Vedanga Jyotisha, which is an ancient text. Secondly it also appears > > > > that you are not aware of the genesis and etymology of the word Rashi. > > > > Why don't you see a Sanskrit dictionary before talking about Rashi? You > > > > will find there that Rashi means a group. In Indian Jyotish shastra > > > > Rashis are groups of fixed Nakshatras and they cannot move. The > > > > Tropical Zodiac later on took the word Rashi from the Sidereal Zodiac as > > > > they could not coin an apprprpiate word for for the 12 divisions for the > > > > moving Tropical Zodiac. > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > zaobnali zaob16@ > > > > > Re: Test of tropical versus > > > > sidereal zodiac > > > > > > > > > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 9:49 PM > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > I think it is important to understand conceptually what the rasis > > > > mean. The rasis, for example, have certain qualities, mobile, fixed and > > > > mutable, as well as the four elements. These qualities 3x4 = 12 rasis. > > > > The Sun sets these qualities in motion and the tropical zodiac is Sun > > > > based. The moveable signs Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn coincide > > > > with the solstices and equinoxes. In addition it turns out that the > > > > ancient scripts actually seem to suggest that the rishis used the > > > > tropical zodiac (see Ernst's article on Ayanamsha). It may be that the > > > > sidereal zodiac will eventually be proven correct but we can not ignore > > > > the tropical zodiac and the reasoning behind, which is why such studies > > > > are important. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > Boaz > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil > > > > Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > > > > > The positions of all the nine grahas in the Tropical Zodiac are > > > > ayanamsha-corrected in the Sidereal Zodiac. So this means the a > > > > reoriented Tropical Ziodiac fits in the Sidereal Zodiac and the > > > > interaction between the grahas based on the angles relative to each > > > > other are the same in both the Zodiacs. On top of it the Sidereal Zodiac > > > > takes into account the additional effects of the Nakshatras. So in my > > > > opinion the Sidereal predictions are bound to be more precise. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunl K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > zaobnali zaob16@ > > > > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus > > > > sidereal zodiac > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > > > > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 4:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > > > > > Glad to join this forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to > > > > determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better. > > > > Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are > > > > encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing > > > > some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the > > > > test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on > > > > all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred > > > > more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal > > > > the results to you all. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.isjyotis h.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Boaz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 Dear Bhattacharjyaji, I hereby repeat the vedic system and vedic coorrections made in the past.nirayan makar rashi and sayan makar rashi need not start at the same time to give the uttrayan value to poush purnima, which is taken as the lunar uttarayan date.Poush purnima always plays over a zone between pushya nakshyatra and punarvashu nakshytra.It is doing so now also. It was doing so in the vedanga jyotish also.As long as the sayan uttarayan is 180 degrees to the two nakshyatras, then poush purnima did get the uttrayan value.This fact lasted for about 1100years from the time that makar sankranti was the adopted as the uttrayan say by Barah mihir and before him from about 285AD.During that whole period both nirayan makar sankranti and sayan makar sankranti were within the zone of poush fullmoon.Although sayan makar and nirayan makar did not start at the same time, but poush purnima did get the value of both for about 1100 years without fail.During that period, we may say the nirayan makar sankranti authentically represented the sayan makar sankranti too. Sayan makar sankranti being the actual uttarayan. Then when the sayan uttarayan shifted position from poush purnima zone to mangsir purnima zone say around 15th century AD, the authenticity of nirayan makar sankranti to represent uttarayan ended, because its related uttarayan tithi ie poush purnima no more touched sayan uttrayan any more,sayan uttrayan having already entered the next purnima zone ie. the mangsir purnima zone.Then was the time to shift the uttrayan tithi from poush purnima to mangsir purnima and the nirayan uttrayan date from nirayan makar sankarnti to the nirayan Dhanu sannkranti zone, which is the mean position of the mangsir purnima zone. Please try to understand the triangular relationship of sayan uttrayan, nirayan uttrayan and the uttrayan tithi,(poush purnima taken at the present in dharma shastras, although the date has already expired by precession). The celebration of makar sankranti is not because of makar rashi itself but due to uttarayn value assigned to makar sankranti by Baraha mihir and others.The uttarayan value before makar sakranti was assigned to the time when sun was in the beginning of dhanistha.We may even say that beginning of dhanistha was the previous position of nirayan makar sankranti, if we take makar sankranti to mean uttarayan, as has been costumary in dharma shastras now a days. At that time the uttarayan tithi was not poush purnima as of today but magha sukla pratipada (also known as Tapa sukla pratipada and is 15 days earlier from poush purnima). so let us undersstand the spirit. You may have known that makar is crocodile.This crocodile has been described in Srimad Bhagvat as sishumar chakra with 14 nakhsytra from avijit to punarvasu(dakhinayan) on the left side and 14 nakshyatras from pushya to uttar ashadha on the right side of it , the tail being described as at the pole star.This clearly affirms that makar is meant for uttarayan.The present problem is shall we make our shastras go false, by not shifting the names of the rashis and nakshyatras? shall we tell our future generations that the old rishis did not appropriately represent the crocodile since they did not know about precession? Thus to make our old scriptures always last, we have to shift the names of the rashis and nakshyatras from epoch to epoch, to make the shastras alwayas correct. These rashis and nakshyatras shall be termed as epochal rashis and nakshyatras and we keep record of the original rashis and nakshaytras too, to keep history. What to do now when nirayan makar sankranti no more authentically represents uttrayan and dhanu sankranti does authentically represent uttayan because its related full moon the mrigasira purnima zone embraces uttrayan of dec 21 or 6th. of saura poush. This is the question at hand.Nirayan jyotish people want the dharma shastris to forget the name of makar, but the dharmas shatris want the name to continue.We have to compromise.I feel the jyotishis people must sacrifice here because makar, as the crocodile in the above description stretches from uttrayan to dakhinayan, like the major axis of the earth orbit around the sun and the stars are like the thorny body of the crocodile on either side of it. If you still feel I am evading, I will write more.The two sankrantis must be in the same fullmoon zone as is the practice in the past.The switch over of nirayan uttarayan from sun in dhanistha to makar sankranti by Barahmihir etc. was because both the sayan and the nirayan uttarayan were not in the zone of magha sukla pratipasda, which was the uttrayan tithi during the veanga jyotish period.But now since the uttrayan tithi is the poush fullmoon the two sankranti must be in the same fullmon zone.Since this is not so since the 15th. century, Mriga sira full moon should be taken as the new uttarayan purnima and dhanu sankranti at the middle of the zone as the new uttarayan sankranti.But to keep our dharma shastra intact, we should call dhanu sankranti as makar sankranti itself on the request of the dharma shastris and also to bring back the original concept of the crocodile as described in Srimad Bhagvat. Thank you and regards, Hari malla , sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > > Dear Harimallaji, > > Calendar-making is not a layman's job. Layman follows the calendar made by the experts. So you cannot sacrifice rigorous treatment just to simplify the process for making of calendar. > > In my last mail I asked you a simple question but you have not replied to that. Please do not evade this important question. Nirayana Makar Rashi and that Sayana Makar Rashi cannot always start at the same time. Therefore they need not necessarily always be in the same fullmoon zone. In fact the Nirayana Makar rashi is the real Makar Rashi. The Sayana Makar Rashi shifts due to precession and once you attempt to reply to that question you will realise that you are making improper assumptions. So please reply to that question first. I repeat below your statement and my question to that : > > > Quote > > > > The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two. > > > > Unquote > > > > Vedic reference please?I > > I am waiting for your reply with Vedic reference as to where it is said that the two Sankrantis are to be in the same fullmoon zone. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Sat, 5/16/09, harimalla <harimalla wrote: > > > harimalla <harimalla > Re: Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac > > Saturday, May 16, 2009, 6:01 AM > > Dear Bhattacharjyaji, > Namaskar! Study of vedic calender practice and the vedic calendar reform paractice are both important for ascertaining this fact, that both the sayan and nirayan sankrantis should be within the same fullmoon zone.Once a person knows this for sure, calendar reform becomes a easy job.Lack of this study has troubled the modern hindus between the unending dispute between sayan and nirayan systems. > The vedic system is simultaneously sayan(tropical) and nirayan(sidereal) .Many people wonder how it can be both sayan and nirayan at the same time.That is to be understood by concentration and careful analysis of our vedic soli-lunar calendar; that is the compreheensive vedic method of calendar practice and reform both. > We should be conversant with the simultaneity of three factors- the sayan sankranti,the nirayan sankranti and the lunar uttrayan or vshuvat dates.The coordination of the three was always done in the past.Only in the modern times we are faltering on how to accomplish it.This is due to modern western influence of solar sayan (tropical) dates, which has given rise to the two camps of thought, sidereal and tropical. > By analysing vedanga jyotish system of how the five year yuga,the semi sidereal lunar month of magha, the tropical lunar Tapa sukla pratipada and uttrayan can start simutaneously for nearly 1700 years from 1400 BC to 285 AD, when the sun and the moon were in dhanistha, we can understand our system well.This is how we analyse.The nirayan sankranti was- sun in dhanistha all that period.The tropical > lunar Tapa sukla pratipada fluctuated from the first of makar rashi to the end of rashi, as you well know. Magha sukla pratipada does that even today, fluctuating during the nearly three year period cycle( form adhimas to adhimas)over the whole month of magha from the first to the last of the month.This was the lunar uttrayan date. > Again over that whole period, the sayan sankranti representing tropical uttrayan travelled over 7 padas of makar rashi, from the beginning of dhanistha nakshyatra to the beginning of makar rashi. > In short, the uttrayan lunar pratipada embraced both the sayan uttarayan and nirayan uttarayan for that period and thus coordinating both.Thus the formula is- the lunar uttarayan date should coordinate both the sayan sankranti and the nirayan sankrantis. > When Barah mihir and others did calendar reform, they maintained the old vedanga sytem of haveing both the sayan sankranti and the nirayan sankranti by the lunar uttayan which was shifted to poush fullmoon.At present the uttarayan lunar date being still Poush purnima, it should have coordinated both the sayan uttarayan sankranti and the nirayan uttrayan sankranti (makar sankti) by touching both within the three year period of the fluctuation of the adhimaas,although, it did served this purpose for about 1100 years after 285AD till the early 15th. century.But after that it has stopped coordinating the two sankrantis, when the ayanamsa increased more than 15 degrees.Thus to bring about the same situation of coordination, we have to shift the nirayan sankranti by 30 degrees, so we maintain our present nirayan rashi system relevant in our soli-lunar system now also. > This method keeps alive the rules of our nirayan astrology and the present dharma shastras intact, the way it is supposed to be.We don't have to change a single word in our shastras.We only change the ayansamsa from 24 degrees ot -6 degrees and bring our calender back to its solar and lunar seasons and dates. > Many people think we do not have to bother about the seasons.If we are not to bother about the seasons, then why do we have the adhimas in the first place.Is it not to actualise the lunar seasons that we have the adhimas? Is it not because the Moslems do not have adhimas that they have no lunar seasons.Why do we call our Dashehara festivals 'Sharad navaratra' if it should not fall in sharad ritu. Thus if our calendar is to be vedic, how can it forget our dharma shastra.Is veda not our dharma only? > Of ocurse astrology should also continue smoothly.But the best method seems now to let astrology have its freedom whether to use the old rashis or the reformedd new epochal rashis, which in my view would be more acurate.But till faith develops in the new epochal rashis, those who want may continue with the old rashis itsslef.But they sould not be a hindrance to the reformation of our vedic calender. The festivals are their dharma as well . > Regards, > Hari Malla > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > Quote > > > > The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two. > > > > Unquote > > > > Vedic reference please? > > > > -SIKB > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> > > Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 5:50 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Boaz, > > This indeed is a good news.The result will surely be exciting.After the result please intimate about it to us all. > > But one thing is certain which we must all know.Both tropical and sidereal zodiacs are necessary for the vedic astrology.The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two.This is known by the experts of vedic calendar( Dharma shastris).The very word vedic means concerning dharma shastras.So no matter what the result, the only way to save vedic jyotish is by shifting all the rashis by 30 degrees by the sayan or the tropical way and apply the nirayan system for another 1500 to 2000 years.This is in accordance with the vedanga jyotish principles.This is the only traditinal way to reform.It is a foregone conclusion, if any one wants ot come to lasting solution. > > regards, > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > zaobnali <zaob16 (AT) gmail (DOT) com> > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Friday, May 15, 2009 5:12:03 PM > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > Glad to join this forum. > > > > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better. Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal the results to you all. > > > > http://www.isjyotis h.com/ > > > > Thanks, > > Boaz > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > Quote > > > > The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two. > > > > Unquote > > > > Vedic reference please? > > > > -SIKB > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> > > Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 5:50 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Boaz, > > This indeed is a good news.The result will surely be exciting.After the result please intimate about it to us all. > > But one thing is certain which we must all know.Both tropical and sidereal zodiacs are necessary for the vedic astrology.The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two.This is known by the experts of vedic calendar( Dharma shastris).The very word vedic means concerning dharma shastras.So no matter what the result, the only way to save vedic jyotish is by shifting all the rashis by 30 degrees by the sayan or the tropical way and apply the nirayan system for another 1500 to 2000 years.This is in accordance with the vedanga jyotish principles.This is the only traditinal way to reform.It is a foregone conclusion, if any one wants ot come to lasting solution. > > regards, > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > zaobnali <zaob16 (AT) gmail (DOT) com> > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Friday, May 15, 2009 5:12:03 PM > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > Glad to join this forum. > > > > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better. Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal the results to you all. > > > > http://www.isjyotis h.com/ > > > > Thanks, > > Boaz > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 Dear Harimallaji, Please give the Vedic reference as to where it is said that the two sankrantis are to be in the same fullmoon zone. If you cannot give any reference then please say so frankly. No need of repeating anything. Regards, SunilK. Bhattacharjya --- On Sun, 5/17/09, harimalla <harimalla wrote: harimalla <harimalla Re: Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac Sunday, May 17, 2009, 6:07 AM Dear Bhattacharjyaji, I hereby repeat the vedic system and vedic coorrections made in the past.nirayan makar rashi and sayan makar rashi need not start at the same time to give the uttrayan value to poush purnima, which is taken as the lunar uttarayan date.Poush purnima always plays over a zone between pushya nakshyatra and punarvashu nakshytra.It is doing so now also. It was doing so in the vedanga jyotish also.As long as the sayan uttarayan is 180 degrees to the two nakshyatras, then poush purnima did get the uttrayan value.This fact lasted for about 1100years from the time that makar sankranti was the adopted as the uttrayan say by Barah mihir and before him from about 285AD.During that whole period both nirayan makar sankranti and sayan makar sankranti were within the zone of poush fullmoon.Although sayan makar and nirayan makar did not start at the same time, but poush purnima did get the value of both for about 1100 years without fail.During that period, we may say the nirayan makar sankranti authentically represented the sayan makar sankranti too. Sayan makar sankranti being the actual uttarayan. Then when the sayan uttarayan shifted position from poush purnima zone to mangsir purnima zone say around 15th century AD, the authenticity of nirayan makar sankranti to represent uttarayan ended, because its related uttarayan tithi ie poush purnima no more touched sayan uttrayan any more,sayan uttrayan having already entered the next purnima zone ie. the mangsir purnima zone.Then was the time to shift the uttrayan tithi from poush purnima to mangsir purnima and the nirayan uttrayan date from nirayan makar sankarnti to the nirayan Dhanu sannkranti zone, which is the mean position of the mangsir purnima zone. Please try to understand the triangular relationship of sayan uttrayan, nirayan uttrayan and the uttrayan tithi,(poush purnima taken at the present in dharma shastras, although the date has already expired by precession). The celebration of makar sankranti is not because of makar rashi itself but due to uttarayn value assigned to makar sankranti by Baraha mihir and others.The uttarayan value before makar sakranti was assigned to the time when sun was in the beginning of dhanistha.We may even say that beginning of dhanistha was the previous position of nirayan makar sankranti, if we take makar sankranti to mean uttarayan, as has been costumary in dharma shastras now a days. At that time the uttarayan tithi was not poush purnima as of today but magha sukla pratipada (also known as Tapa sukla pratipada and is 15 days earlier from poush purnima). so let us undersstand the spirit. You may have known that makar is crocodile.This crocodile has been described in Srimad Bhagvat as sishumar chakra with 14 nakhsytra from avijit to punarvasu(dakhinaya n) on the left side and 14 nakshyatras from pushya to uttar ashadha on the right side of it , the tail being described as at the pole star.This clearly affirms that makar is meant for uttarayan.The present problem is shall we make our shastras go false, by not shifting the names of the rashis and nakshyatras? shall we tell our future generations that the old rishis did not appropriately represent the crocodile since they did not know about precession? Thus to make our old scriptures always last, we have to shift the names of the rashis and nakshyatras from epoch to epoch, to make the shastras alwayas correct. These rashis and nakshyatras shall be termed as epochal rashis and nakshyatras and we keep record of the original rashis and nakshaytras too, to keep history. What to do now when nirayan makar sankranti no more authentically represents uttrayan and dhanu sankranti does authentically represent uttayan because its related full moon the mrigasira purnima zone embraces uttrayan of dec 21 or 6th. of saura poush. This is the question at hand.Nirayan jyotish people want the dharma shastris to forget the name of makar, but the dharmas shatris want the name to continue.We have to compromise.I feel the jyotishis people must sacrifice here because makar, as the crocodile in the above description stretches from uttrayan to dakhinayan, like the major axis of the earth orbit around the sun and the stars are like the thorny body of the crocodile on either side of it. If you still feel I am evading, I will write more.The two sankrantis must be in the same fullmoon zone as is the practice in the past.The switch over of nirayan uttarayan from sun in dhanistha to makar sankranti by Barahmihir etc. was because both the sayan and the nirayan uttarayan were not in the zone of magha sukla pratipasda, which was the uttrayan tithi during the veanga jyotish period.But now since the uttrayan tithi is the poush fullmoon the two sankranti must be in the same fullmon zone.Since this is not so since the 15th. century, Mriga sira full moon should be taken as the new uttarayan purnima and dhanu sankranti at the middle of the zone as the new uttarayan sankranti.But to keep our dharma shastra intact, we should call dhanu sankranti as makar sankranti itself on the request of the dharma shastris and also to bring back the original concept of the crocodile as described in Srimad Bhagvat. Thank you and regards, Hari malla ancient_indian_ astrology, sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > > Dear Harimallaji, > > Calendar-making is not a layman's job. Layman follows the calendar made by the experts. So you cannot sacrifice rigorous treatment just to simplify the process for making of calendar. > > In my last mail I asked you a simple question but you have not replied to that. Please do not evade this important question. Nirayana Makar Rashi and that Sayana Makar Rashi cannot always start at the same time. Therefore they need not necessarily always be in the same fullmoon zone. In fact the Nirayana Makar rashi is the real Makar Rashi. The Sayana Makar Rashi shifts due to precession and once you attempt to reply to that question you will realise that you are making improper assumptions. So please reply to that question first. I repeat below your statement and my question to that : > > > Quote > > > > The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two. > > > > Unquote > > > > Vedic reference please?I > > I am waiting for your reply with Vedic reference as to where it is said that the two Sankrantis are to be in the same fullmoon zone. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Sat, 5/16/09, harimalla@.. . <harimalla@. ..> wrote: > > > harimalla@.. . <harimalla@. ..> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac > ancient_indian_ astrology > Saturday, May 16, 2009, 6:01 AM > > Dear Bhattacharjyaji, > Namaskar! Study of vedic calender practice and the vedic calendar reform paractice are both important for ascertaining this fact, that both the sayan and nirayan sankrantis should be within the same fullmoon zone.Once a person knows this for sure, calendar reform becomes a easy job.Lack of this study has troubled the modern hindus between the unending dispute between sayan and nirayan systems. > The vedic system is simultaneously sayan(tropical) and nirayan(sidereal) .Many people wonder how it can be both sayan and nirayan at the same time.That is to be understood by concentration and careful analysis of our vedic soli-lunar calendar; that is the compreheensive vedic method of calendar practice and reform both. > We should be conversant with the simultaneity of three factors- the sayan sankranti,the nirayan sankranti and the lunar uttrayan or vshuvat dates.The coordination of the three was always done in the past.Only in the modern times we are faltering on how to accomplish it.This is due to modern western influence of solar sayan (tropical) dates, which has given rise to the two camps of thought, sidereal and tropical. > By analysing vedanga jyotish system of how the five year yuga,the semi sidereal lunar month of magha, the tropical lunar Tapa sukla pratipada and uttrayan can start simutaneously for nearly 1700 years from 1400 BC to 285 AD, when the sun and the moon were in dhanistha, we can understand our system well.This is how we analyse.The nirayan sankranti was- sun in dhanistha all that period.The tropical > lunar Tapa sukla pratipada fluctuated from the first of makar rashi to the end of rashi, as you well know. Magha sukla pratipada does that even today, fluctuating during the nearly three year period cycle( form adhimas to adhimas)over the whole month of magha from the first to the last of the month.This was the lunar uttrayan date. > Again over that whole period, the sayan sankranti representing tropical uttrayan travelled over 7 padas of makar rashi, from the beginning of dhanistha nakshyatra to the beginning of makar rashi. > In short, the uttrayan lunar pratipada embraced both the sayan uttarayan and nirayan uttarayan for that period and thus coordinating both.Thus the formula is- the lunar uttarayan date should coordinate both the sayan sankranti and the nirayan sankrantis. > When Barah mihir and others did calendar reform, they maintained the old vedanga sytem of haveing both the sayan sankranti and the nirayan sankranti by the lunar uttayan which was shifted to poush fullmoon.At present the uttarayan lunar date being still Poush purnima, it should have coordinated both the sayan uttarayan sankranti and the nirayan uttrayan sankranti (makar sankti) by touching both within the three year period of the fluctuation of the adhimaas,although, it did served this purpose for about 1100 years after 285AD till the early 15th. century.But after that it has stopped coordinating the two sankrantis, when the ayanamsa increased more than 15 degrees.Thus to bring about the same situation of coordination, we have to shift the nirayan sankranti by 30 degrees, so we maintain our present nirayan rashi system relevant in our soli-lunar system now also. > This method keeps alive the rules of our nirayan astrology and the present dharma shastras intact, the way it is supposed to be.We don't have to change a single word in our shastras.We only change the ayansamsa from 24 degrees ot -6 degrees and bring our calender back to its solar and lunar seasons and dates. > Many people think we do not have to bother about the seasons.If we are not to bother about the seasons, then why do we have the adhimas in the first place.Is it not to actualise the lunar seasons that we have the adhimas? Is it not because the Moslems do not have adhimas that they have no lunar seasons.Why do we call our Dashehara festivals 'Sharad navaratra' if it should not fall in sharad ritu. Thus if our calendar is to be vedic, how can it forget our dharma shastra.Is veda not our dharma only? > Of ocurse astrology should also continue smoothly.But the best method seems now to let astrology have its freedom whether to use the old rashis or the reformedd new epochal rashis, which in my view would be more acurate.But till faith develops in the new epochal rashis, those who want may continue with the old rashis itsslef.But they sould not be a hindrance to the reformation of our vedic calender. The festivals are their dharma as well . > Regards, > Hari Malla > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > Quote > > > > The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two. > > > > Unquote > > > > Vedic reference please? > > > > -SIKB > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> > > Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 5:50 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Boaz, > > This indeed is a good news.The result will surely be exciting.After the result please intimate about it to us all. > > But one thing is certain which we must all know.Both tropical and sidereal zodiacs are necessary for the vedic astrology.The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two.This is known by the experts of vedic calendar( Dharma shastris).The very word vedic means concerning dharma shastras.So no matter what the result, the only way to save vedic jyotish is by shifting all the rashis by 30 degrees by the sayan or the tropical way and apply the nirayan system for another 1500 to 2000 years.This is in accordance with the vedanga jyotish principles.This is the only traditinal way to reform.It is a foregone conclusion, if any one wants ot come to lasting solution. > > regards, > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > zaobnali <zaob16 (AT) gmail (DOT) com> > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Friday, May 15, 2009 5:12:03 PM > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > Glad to join this forum. > > > > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better. Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal the results to you all. > > > > http://www.isjyotis h.com/ > > > > Thanks, > > Boaz > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > Quote > > > > The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two. > > > > Unquote > > > > Vedic reference please? > > > > -SIKB > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> > > Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 5:50 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Boaz, > > This indeed is a good news.The result will surely be exciting.After the result please intimate about it to us all. > > But one thing is certain which we must all know.Both tropical and sidereal zodiacs are necessary for the vedic astrology.The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two.This is known by the experts of vedic calendar( Dharma shastris).The very word vedic means concerning dharma shastras.So no matter what the result, the only way to save vedic jyotish is by shifting all the rashis by 30 degrees by the sayan or the tropical way and apply the nirayan system for another 1500 to 2000 years.This is in accordance with the vedanga jyotish principles.This is the only traditinal way to reform.It is a foregone conclusion, if any one wants ot come to lasting solution. > > regards, > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > zaobnali <zaob16 (AT) gmail (DOT) com> > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Friday, May 15, 2009 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 Dear Harimallaji, Please give the Vedic reference as to where it is said that the two sankrantis are to be in the same fullmoon zone. If you cannot give any reference then please say so frankly. No need of repeating anything. Regards, SunilK. Bhattacharjya --- On Sun, 5/17/09, harimalla <harimalla wrote: harimalla <harimalla Re: Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac Sunday, May 17, 2009, 6:07 AM Dear Bhattacharjyaji, I hereby repeat the vedic system and vedic coorrections made in the past.nirayan makar rashi and sayan makar rashi need not start at the same time to give the uttrayan value to poush purnima, which is taken as the lunar uttarayan date.Poush purnima always plays over a zone between pushya nakshyatra and punarvashu nakshytra.It is doing so now also. It was doing so in the vedanga jyotish also.As long as the sayan uttarayan is 180 degrees to the two nakshyatras, then poush purnima did get the uttrayan value.This fact lasted for about 1100years from the time that makar sankranti was the adopted as the uttrayan say by Barah mihir and before him from about 285AD.During that whole period both nirayan makar sankranti and sayan makar sankranti were within the zone of poush fullmoon.Although sayan makar and nirayan makar did not start at the same time, but poush purnima did get the value of both for about 1100 years without fail.During that period, we may say the nirayan makar sankranti authentically represented the sayan makar sankranti too. Sayan makar sankranti being the actual uttarayan. Then when the sayan uttarayan shifted position from poush purnima zone to mangsir purnima zone say around 15th century AD, the authenticity of nirayan makar sankranti to represent uttarayan ended, because its related uttarayan tithi ie poush purnima no more touched sayan uttrayan any more,sayan uttrayan having already entered the next purnima zone ie. the mangsir purnima zone.Then was the time to shift the uttrayan tithi from poush purnima to mangsir purnima and the nirayan uttrayan date from nirayan makar sankarnti to the nirayan Dhanu sannkranti zone, which is the mean position of the mangsir purnima zone. Please try to understand the triangular relationship of sayan uttrayan, nirayan uttrayan and the uttrayan tithi,(poush purnima taken at the present in dharma shastras, although the date has already expired by precession). The celebration of makar sankranti is not because of makar rashi itself but due to uttarayn value assigned to makar sankranti by Baraha mihir and others.The uttarayan value before makar sakranti was assigned to the time when sun was in the beginning of dhanistha.We may even say that beginning of dhanistha was the previous position of nirayan makar sankranti, if we take makar sankranti to mean uttarayan, as has been costumary in dharma shastras now a days. At that time the uttarayan tithi was not poush purnima as of today but magha sukla pratipada (also known as Tapa sukla pratipada and is 15 days earlier from poush purnima). so let us undersstand the spirit. You may have known that makar is crocodile.This crocodile has been described in Srimad Bhagvat as sishumar chakra with 14 nakhsytra from avijit to punarvasu(dakhinaya n) on the left side and 14 nakshyatras from pushya to uttar ashadha on the right side of it , the tail being described as at the pole star.This clearly affirms that makar is meant for uttarayan.The present problem is shall we make our shastras go false, by not shifting the names of the rashis and nakshyatras? shall we tell our future generations that the old rishis did not appropriately represent the crocodile since they did not know about precession? Thus to make our old scriptures always last, we have to shift the names of the rashis and nakshyatras from epoch to epoch, to make the shastras alwayas correct. These rashis and nakshyatras shall be termed as epochal rashis and nakshyatras and we keep record of the original rashis and nakshaytras too, to keep history. What to do now when nirayan makar sankranti no more authentically represents uttrayan and dhanu sankranti does authentically represent uttayan because its related full moon the mrigasira purnima zone embraces uttrayan of dec 21 or 6th. of saura poush. This is the question at hand.Nirayan jyotish people want the dharma shastris to forget the name of makar, but the dharmas shatris want the name to continue.We have to compromise.I feel the jyotishis people must sacrifice here because makar, as the crocodile in the above description stretches from uttrayan to dakhinayan, like the major axis of the earth orbit around the sun and the stars are like the thorny body of the crocodile on either side of it. If you still feel I am evading, I will write more.The two sankrantis must be in the same fullmoon zone as is the practice in the past.The switch over of nirayan uttarayan from sun in dhanistha to makar sankranti by Barahmihir etc. was because both the sayan and the nirayan uttarayan were not in the zone of magha sukla pratipasda, which was the uttrayan tithi during the veanga jyotish period.But now since the uttrayan tithi is the poush fullmoon the two sankranti must be in the same fullmon zone.Since this is not so since the 15th. century, Mriga sira full moon should be taken as the new uttarayan purnima and dhanu sankranti at the middle of the zone as the new uttarayan sankranti.But to keep our dharma shastra intact, we should call dhanu sankranti as makar sankranti itself on the request of the dharma shastris and also to bring back the original concept of the crocodile as described in Srimad Bhagvat. Thank you and regards, Hari malla ancient_indian_ astrology, sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > > Dear Harimallaji, > > Calendar-making is not a layman's job. Layman follows the calendar made by the experts. So you cannot sacrifice rigorous treatment just to simplify the process for making of calendar. > > In my last mail I asked you a simple question but you have not replied to that. Please do not evade this important question. Nirayana Makar Rashi and that Sayana Makar Rashi cannot always start at the same time. Therefore they need not necessarily always be in the same fullmoon zone. In fact the Nirayana Makar rashi is the real Makar Rashi. The Sayana Makar Rashi shifts due to precession and once you attempt to reply to that question you will realise that you are making improper assumptions. So please reply to that question first. I repeat below your statement and my question to that : > > > Quote > > > > The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two. > > > > Unquote > > > > Vedic reference please?I > > I am waiting for your reply with Vedic reference as to where it is said that the two Sankrantis are to be in the same fullmoon zone. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Sat, 5/16/09, harimalla@.. . <harimalla@. ..> wrote: > > > harimalla@.. . <harimalla@. ..> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac > ancient_indian_ astrology > Saturday, May 16, 2009, 6:01 AM > > Dear Bhattacharjyaji, > Namaskar! Study of vedic calender practice and the vedic calendar reform paractice are both important for ascertaining this fact, that both the sayan and nirayan sankrantis should be within the same fullmoon zone.Once a person knows this for sure, calendar reform becomes a easy job.Lack of this study has troubled the modern hindus between the unending dispute between sayan and nirayan systems. > The vedic system is simultaneously sayan(tropical) and nirayan(sidereal) .Many people wonder how it can be both sayan and nirayan at the same time.That is to be understood by concentration and careful analysis of our vedic soli-lunar calendar; that is the compreheensive vedic method of calendar practice and reform both. > We should be conversant with the simultaneity of three factors- the sayan sankranti,the nirayan sankranti and the lunar uttrayan or vshuvat dates.The coordination of the three was always done in the past.Only in the modern times we are faltering on how to accomplish it.This is due to modern western influence of solar sayan (tropical) dates, which has given rise to the two camps of thought, sidereal and tropical. > By analysing vedanga jyotish system of how the five year yuga,the semi sidereal lunar month of magha, the tropical lunar Tapa sukla pratipada and uttrayan can start simutaneously for nearly 1700 years from 1400 BC to 285 AD, when the sun and the moon were in dhanistha, we can understand our system well.This is how we analyse.The nirayan sankranti was- sun in dhanistha all that period.The tropical > lunar Tapa sukla pratipada fluctuated from the first of makar rashi to the end of rashi, as you well know. Magha sukla pratipada does that even today, fluctuating during the nearly three year period cycle( form adhimas to adhimas)over the whole month of magha from the first to the last of the month.This was the lunar uttrayan date. > Again over that whole period, the sayan sankranti representing tropical uttrayan travelled over 7 padas of makar rashi, from the beginning of dhanistha nakshyatra to the beginning of makar rashi. > In short, the uttrayan lunar pratipada embraced both the sayan uttarayan and nirayan uttarayan for that period and thus coordinating both.Thus the formula is- the lunar uttarayan date should coordinate both the sayan sankranti and the nirayan sankrantis. > When Barah mihir and others did calendar reform, they maintained the old vedanga sytem of haveing both the sayan sankranti and the nirayan sankranti by the lunar uttayan which was shifted to poush fullmoon.At present the uttarayan lunar date being still Poush purnima, it should have coordinated both the sayan uttarayan sankranti and the nirayan uttrayan sankranti (makar sankti) by touching both within the three year period of the fluctuation of the adhimaas,although, it did served this purpose for about 1100 years after 285AD till the early 15th. century.But after that it has stopped coordinating the two sankrantis, when the ayanamsa increased more than 15 degrees.Thus to bring about the same situation of coordination, we have to shift the nirayan sankranti by 30 degrees, so we maintain our present nirayan rashi system relevant in our soli-lunar system now also. > This method keeps alive the rules of our nirayan astrology and the present dharma shastras intact, the way it is supposed to be.We don't have to change a single word in our shastras.We only change the ayansamsa from 24 degrees ot -6 degrees and bring our calender back to its solar and lunar seasons and dates. > Many people think we do not have to bother about the seasons.If we are not to bother about the seasons, then why do we have the adhimas in the first place.Is it not to actualise the lunar seasons that we have the adhimas? Is it not because the Moslems do not have adhimas that they have no lunar seasons.Why do we call our Dashehara festivals 'Sharad navaratra' if it should not fall in sharad ritu. Thus if our calendar is to be vedic, how can it forget our dharma shastra.Is veda not our dharma only? > Of ocurse astrology should also continue smoothly.But the best method seems now to let astrology have its freedom whether to use the old rashis or the reformedd new epochal rashis, which in my view would be more acurate.But till faith develops in the new epochal rashis, those who want may continue with the old rashis itsslef.But they sould not be a hindrance to the reformation of our vedic calender. The festivals are their dharma as well . > Regards, > Hari Malla > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > Quote > > > > The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two. > > > > Unquote > > > > Vedic reference please? > > > > -SIKB > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> > > Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 5:50 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Boaz, > > This indeed is a good news.The result will surely be exciting.After the result please intimate about it to us all. > > But one thing is certain which we must all know.Both tropical and sidereal zodiacs are necessary for the vedic astrology.The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two.This is known by the experts of vedic calendar( Dharma shastris).The very word vedic means concerning dharma shastras.So no matter what the result, the only way to save vedic jyotish is by shifting all the rashis by 30 degrees by the sayan or the tropical way and apply the nirayan system for another 1500 to 2000 years.This is in accordance with the vedanga jyotish principles.This is the only traditinal way to reform.It is a foregone conclusion, if any one wants ot come to lasting solution. > > regards, > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > zaobnali <zaob16 (AT) gmail (DOT) com> > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Friday, May 15, 2009 5:12:03 PM > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > Glad to join this forum. > > > > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better. Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal the results to you all. > > > > http://www.isjyotis h.com/ > > > > Thanks, > > Boaz > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > Quote > > > > The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two. > > > > Unquote > > > > Vedic reference please? > > > > -SIKB > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> > > Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 5:50 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Boaz, > > This indeed is a good news.The result will surely be exciting.After the result please intimate about it to us all. > > But one thing is certain which we must all know.Both tropical and sidereal zodiacs are necessary for the vedic astrology.The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two.This is known by the experts of vedic calendar( Dharma shastris).The very word vedic means concerning dharma shastras.So no matter what the result, the only way to save vedic jyotish is by shifting all the rashis by 30 degrees by the sayan or the tropical way and apply the nirayan system for another 1500 to 2000 years.This is in accordance with the vedanga jyotish principles.This is the only traditinal way to reform.It is a foregone conclusion, if any one wants ot come to lasting solution. > > regards, > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > zaobnali <zaob16 (AT) gmail (DOT) com> > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Friday, May 15, 2009 5:12:03 PM > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > Glad to join this forum. > > > > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better. Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal the results to you all. > > > > http://www.isjyotis h.com/ > > > > Thanks, > > Boaz > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 Dear Bhattacharjyaji, I will give three points two of them are related references, one is inference to establish the fact. 1.When the sun and the moon are in dhanistha, then the five year yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla(pratipada)and uttarayan start together. This leads us to having both the sayan sankranti and nirayan sankranti within the same uttrayan tithi zone.,(zone of Tapa sukla pratipada).Since our present uttrayan tithi is poush purnima, the same rule that applied to maagha sukla pratipada in th vedanga jyotish, applies to poush purnima or purnima tithi, as well. 2.The formula for adhimas as 'Asankranta masa adhimas or the solar month with two amavasya' This also demands that the two sankranti must be within the same fullmoon zone.If not the rule of adhimas of surya sidhanta is violated, when the sayan sankaranti has now gone upto 39 days away from the uttaryan tithi of poush purnima. 3.The absurdity of the lunar season with the two sankranti being in two different fullmoon zones also demands that the two sankranti be within the same full moon zone for unified lunar season of the particular lunar month. I hope the above satisfies you.Thanking you, Hari Malla ________________________________ Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya Sunday, May 17, 2009 7:30:06 PM Re: Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac Dear Harimallaji, Please give the Vedic reference as to where it is said that the two sankrantis are to be in the same fullmoon zone. If you cannot give any reference then please say so frankly. No need of repeating anything. Regards, SunilK. Bhattacharjya --- On Sun, 5/17/09, harimalla@rocketmai l.com <harimalla@rocketmai l.com> wrote: harimalla@rocketmai l.com <harimalla@rocketmai l.com> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac ancient_indian_ astrology Sunday, May 17, 2009, 6:07 AM Dear Bhattacharjyaji, I hereby repeat the vedic system and vedic coorrections made in the past.nirayan makar rashi and sayan makar rashi need not start at the same time to give the uttrayan value to poush purnima, which is taken as the lunar uttarayan date.Poush purnima always plays over a zone between pushya nakshyatra and punarvashu nakshytra.It is doing so now also. It was doing so in the vedanga jyotish also.As long as the sayan uttarayan is 180 degrees to the two nakshyatras, then poush purnima did get the uttrayan value.This fact lasted for about 1100years from the time that makar sankranti was the adopted as the uttrayan say by Barah mihir and before him from about 285AD.During that whole period both nirayan makar sankranti and sayan makar sankranti were within the zone of poush fullmoon.Although sayan makar and nirayan makar did not start at the same time, but poush purnima did get the value of both for about 1100 years without fail.During that period, we may say the nirayan makar sankranti authentically represented the sayan makar sankranti too. Sayan makar sankranti being the actual uttarayan. Then when the sayan uttarayan shifted position from poush purnima zone to mangsir purnima zone say around 15th century AD, the authenticity of nirayan makar sankranti to represent uttarayan ended, because its related uttarayan tithi ie poush purnima no more touched sayan uttrayan any more,sayan uttrayan having already entered the next purnima zone ie. the mangsir purnima zone.Then was the time to shift the uttrayan tithi from poush purnima to mangsir purnima and the nirayan uttrayan date from nirayan makar sankarnti to the nirayan Dhanu sannkranti zone, which is the mean position of the mangsir purnima zone. Please try to understand the triangular relationship of sayan uttrayan, nirayan uttrayan and the uttrayan tithi,(poush purnima taken at the present in dharma shastras, although the date has already expired by precession). The celebration of makar sankranti is not because of makar rashi itself but due to uttarayn value assigned to makar sankranti by Baraha mihir and others.The uttarayan value before makar sakranti was assigned to the time when sun was in the beginning of dhanistha.We may even say that beginning of dhanistha was the previous position of nirayan makar sankranti, if we take makar sankranti to mean uttarayan, as has been costumary in dharma shastras now a days. At that time the uttarayan tithi was not poush purnima as of today but magha sukla pratipada (also known as Tapa sukla pratipada and is 15 days earlier from poush purnima). so let us undersstand the spirit. You may have known that makar is crocodile.This crocodile has been described in Srimad Bhagvat as sishumar chakra with 14 nakhsytra from avijit to punarvasu(dakhinaya n) on the left side and 14 nakshyatras from pushya to uttar ashadha on the right side of it , the tail being described as at the pole star.This clearly affirms that makar is meant for uttarayan.The present problem is shall we make our shastras go false, by not shifting the names of the rashis and nakshyatras? shall we tell our future generations that the old rishis did not appropriately represent the crocodile since they did not know about precession? Thus to make our old scriptures always last, we have to shift the names of the rashis and nakshyatras from epoch to epoch, to make the shastras alwayas correct. These rashis and nakshyatras shall be termed as epochal rashis and nakshyatras and we keep record of the original rashis and nakshaytras too, to keep history. What to do now when nirayan makar sankranti no more authentically represents uttrayan and dhanu sankranti does authentically represent uttayan because its related full moon the mrigasira purnima zone embraces uttrayan of dec 21 or 6th. of saura poush. This is the question at hand.Nirayan jyotish people want the dharma shastris to forget the name of makar, but the dharmas shatris want the name to continue.We have to compromise.I feel the jyotishis people must sacrifice here because makar, as the crocodile in the above description stretches from uttrayan to dakhinayan, like the major axis of the earth orbit around the sun and the stars are like the thorny body of the crocodile on either side of it. If you still feel I am evading, I will write more.The two sankrantis must be in the same fullmoon zone as is the practice in the past.The switch over of nirayan uttarayan from sun in dhanistha to makar sankranti by Barahmihir etc. was because both the sayan and the nirayan uttarayan were not in the zone of magha sukla pratipasda, which was the uttrayan tithi during the veanga jyotish period.But now since the uttrayan tithi is the poush fullmoon the two sankranti must be in the same fullmon zone.Since this is not so since the 15th. century, Mriga sira full moon should be taken as the new uttarayan purnima and dhanu sankranti at the middle of the zone as the new uttarayan sankranti.But to keep our dharma shastra intact, we should call dhanu sankranti as makar sankranti itself on the request of the dharma shastris and also to bring back the original concept of the crocodile as described in Srimad Bhagvat. Thank you and regards, Hari malla -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Dear Harimallaji, Only a hairbrained person will argue like that. I have explained to you time and again that you cannot replicate what happened at the time of the composition of the Vedanga Jyotisha, due to precession. Vedanga Jyotisha did not say that same will happen at all times. The ancident rishis had brains. No more discussions. Sincerely, S.K.Bhattacharjya --- On Sun, 5/17/09, Hari Malla <harimalla wrote: Hari Malla <harimalla Re: Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac Cc: "AK Kaul" <jyotirved, parvasudhar2065 Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 11:44 AM Dear Bhattacharjyaji,I will give three points two of them are related references, one is inference to establish the fact.1.When the sun and the moon are in dhanistha, then the five year yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla(pratipada) and uttarayan start together.This leads us to having both the sayan sankranti and nirayan sankranti within the same uttrayan tithi zone.,(zone of Tapa sukla pratipada).Since our present uttrayan tithi is poush purnima, the same rule that applied to maagha sukla pratipada in th vedanga jyotish, applies to poush purnima or purnima tithi, as well.2.The formula for adhimas as 'Asankranta masa adhimas or the solar month with two amavasya'This also demands that the two sankranti must be within the same fullmoon zone.If not the rule of adhimas of surya sidhanta is violated, when the sayan sankaranti has now gone upto 39 days away from the uttaryan tithi of poush purnima.3.The absurdity of the lunar season with the two sankranti being in two different fullmoon zones also demands that the two sankranti be within the same full moon zone for unified lunar season of the particular lunar month.I hope the above satisfies you.Thanking you,Hari Malla____________ _________ _________ __Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @>ancient_indian_ astrologySunday, May 17, 2009 7:30:06 PM[ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiacDear Harimallaji, Please give the Vedic reference as to where it is said that the two sankrantis are to be in the same fullmoon zone. If you cannot give any reference then please say so frankly. No need of repeating anything. Regards, SunilK. Bhattacharjya --- On Sun, 5/17/09, harimalla@rocketmai l.com <harimalla@rocketma i l.com> wrote:harimalla@rocketmai l.com <harimalla@rocketma i l.com>[ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiacancient_indian_ astrologySunday, May 17, 2009, 6:07 AMDear Bhattacharjyaji,I hereby repeat the vedic system and vedic coorrections made in the past.nirayan makar rashi and sayan makar rashi need not start at the same time to give the uttrayan value to poush purnima, which is taken as the lunar uttarayan date.Poush purnima always plays over a zone between pushya nakshyatra and punarvashu nakshytra.It is doing so now also. It was doing so in the vedanga jyotish also.As long as the sayan uttarayan is 180 degrees to the two nakshyatras, then poush purnima did get the uttrayan value.This fact lasted for about 1100years from the time that makar sankranti was the adopted as the uttrayan say by Barah mihir and before him from about 285AD.During that whole period both nirayan makar sankranti and sayan makar sankranti were within the zone of poush fullmoon.Although sayan makar and nirayan makar did not start at the same time, but poush purnima did get the value of both for about 1100 years without fail.During that period, we may say thenirayan makar sankranti authentically represented the sayan makar sankranti too. Sayan makar sankranti being the actual uttarayan.Then when the sayan uttarayan shifted position from poush purnima zone to mangsir purnima zone say around 15th century AD, the authenticity of nirayan makar sankranti to represent uttarayan ended, because its related uttarayan tithi ie poush purnima no more touched sayan uttrayan any more,sayan uttrayan having already entered the next purnima zone ie. the mangsir purnima zone.Then was the time to shift the uttrayan tithi from poush purnima to mangsir purnima and the nirayan uttrayan date from nirayan makar sankarnti to the nirayan Dhanu sannkranti zone, which is the mean position of the mangsir purnima zone.Please try to understand the triangular relationship of sayan uttrayan, nirayan uttrayan and the uttrayan tithi,(poush purnima taken at the present in dharma shastras, although the date has already expired by precession).The celebration of makar sankranti is not because of makar rashi itself but due to uttarayn value assigned to makar sankranti by Baraha mihir and others.The uttarayan value before makar sakranti was assigned to the time when sun was in the beginning of dhanistha.We may even say that beginning of dhanistha was the previous position of nirayan makar sankranti, if we take makar sankranti to mean uttarayan, as has been costumary in dharma shastras now a days. At that time the uttarayan tithi was not poush purnima as of today but magha sukla pratipada (also known as Tapa sukla pratipada and is 15 days earlier from poush purnima).so let us undersstand the spirit.You may have known that makar is crocodile.This crocodile has been described in Srimad Bhagvat as sishumar chakra with 14 nakhsytra from avijit to punarvasu(dakhinaya n) on the left side and 14 nakshyatras from pushya to uttar ashadha on the right side of it , the tail being described as at the pole star.This clearly affirms that makar is meant for uttarayan.The present problem is shall we make our shastras go false, by not shifting the names of the rashis and nakshyatras? shall we tell our future generations that the old rishis did not appropriately represent the crocodile since they did not know about precession? Thus to make our old scriptures always last, we have to shift the names of the rashis and nakshyatras from epoch to epoch, to make the shastras alwayas correct. These rashis and nakshyatras shall be termed as epochal rashis and nakshyatras and we keep record of the original rashis and nakshaytras too, to keep history.What to do now when nirayan makar sankranti no more authentically represents uttrayan and dhanu sankranti does authentically represent uttayan because its related full moon the mrigasira purnima zone embraces uttrayan of dec 21 or 6th. of saura poush. This is the question at hand.Nirayan jyotish people want the dharma shastris to forget the name of makar, but the dharmas shatris want the name to continue.We have to compromise.I feel the jyotishis people must sacrifice here because makar, as the crocodile in the above description stretches from uttrayan to dakhinayan, like the major axis of the earth orbit around the sun and the stars are like the thorny body of the crocodile on either side of it.If you still feel I am evading, I will write more.The two sankrantis must be in the same fullmoon zone as is the practice in the past.The switch over of nirayan uttarayan from sun in dhanistha to makar sankranti by Barahmihir etc. was because both the sayan and the nirayan uttarayan were not in the zone of magha sukla pratipasda, which was the uttrayan tithi during the veanga jyotish period.But now since the uttrayan tithi is the poush fullmoon the two sankranti must be in the same fullmon zone.Since this is not so since the 15th. century, Mriga sira full moon should be taken as the new uttarayan purnima and dhanu sankranti at the middle of the zone as the new uttarayan sankranti.But to keep our dharma shastra intact, we should call dhanu sankranti as makar sankranti itself on the request of the dharma shastris and also to bring back the original concept of the crocodile as described in Srimad Bhagvat.Thank you and regards,Hari malla-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Respected Bhattacharjyaji, Barah mihir replicated what happened at the time of vedanga jyotish.It is because Barah mihir had brain that he re- established the nirayan uttarayan at makar sankranti from that which was previously in dhanistha, after the maagh pratipada zone for precession expired.If we do not re-establish the niryan uttarayan in his footsteps at a new nirayan uttrayan now, when the poush purnima precession zone has already expired,we would indeed be hair brained.Of coourse, Barah mihir had brains.It is we who do not have brains to see the absurdity of a date expired nirayan sankranti. Would you still like to think that makar as the crocodile with the tail at the pole star,does not shift its tail with precession when the position of the pole point shifts? Have you not called Bhavgvat also as a shatra? Please let us not be insistent when the shastras are against us.Thank you, Regards, Hari Malla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Dear Mr. Boaz, How about checking the accuracy of this coordinated system too, in the research carried out by Mr.Ersnt Wilhelm.It may be worth doing research on this basis too instead of only the tropical and the indefinite sidereal types.I feel this coordinated approach should give the maximum accuracy better than the above two types.Will it possible to convey this message to him? thank you, Regards, Hari Malla , " zaobnali " <zaob16 wrote: > > Dear Hari Malla, > > Thank you for clarifying. The idea is interesting but it introduces some arbitrariness to the ayanamsha in my opinion. The tropcial and sidereal seem to be supported by certain principles. The latter zodiac is partitioned into 12 swathes of the sky according to a symbolic rulership and attributes. The former zodiac is set by the apparent tilt/course (ayana) of the Sun throughout the year. Your system somehow combines both principles by introducing a discontinuous shift of the zodiac each time the precession of the equinox crosses the midpoint of the tropcial sign. I am not ruling out your idea but it doesn't really make sense to me. Its interesting though. > > Boaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Dear Mr. Boaz, Please know that in the soli-lunar system, the sidereal first point should be near to the sankranti and also at the middle of the full moon zone.Being at the middle of the full moon zone the arbitrarines that you are thinking of is not true.It is giving value to the moon too and the middle of the full moon fluctuation every three years or so of adhimas takes the average of the lunar fluctuation.Thank you, regards, Hari Malla , " zaobnali " <zaob16 wrote: > > Dear Hari Malla, > > Thank you for clarifying. The idea is interesting but it introduces some arbitrariness to the ayanamsha in my opinion. The tropcial and sidereal seem to be supported by certain principles. The latter zodiac is partitioned into 12 swathes of the sky according to a symbolic rulership and attributes. The former zodiac is set by the apparent tilt/course (ayana) of the Sun throughout the year. Your system somehow combines both principles by introducing a discontinuous shift of the zodiac each time the precession of the equinox crosses the midpoint of the tropcial sign. I am not ruling out your idea but it doesn't really make sense to me. Its interesting though. > > Boaz > > , " harimalla@ " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mr. Boaz, > > After the correction, the name of present Libra becomes Scorpio and Mercury instead of being in Libra will be in Scorpio. From the tropical viewpoint, the present Pisces has become 80 precent Aries, ayanamsa being nearly 24 degrees.This is the coordinated soli-lunar correction.This correction is demanded by the present equinox being closeer to the first point (sankranti) of Meen(Pisces) and not near the first of point of Mesh(Aries).Since we have to take the joint consideration of the sun and the moon both,it is high time to shift the soli-lunar sidereal rashi by thirty degrees i.e. the new name of the epochal Mesh(epochal sidereal Aries) is to be given to the present Meen (original Pisces). > > This is the necessaity of joint soli-lunar calender.This is to honour the lunar dates equal to or a little more than to the solar dates.This is the rule of dharmas shastras, when the lunar dates are given priority.After the correction the sidereal rashis become more accurate in the joint soli- lunar prediction in astrology and the religioius festivals are also celebrated at the correct lunar season and date.At present the link between the lunar date and the solar date has broken.The intended limit of the rule of adhimas has been violated.It has become something like the moslem lunar date without lunar seasons. After the correction the predictions are expected to be more accurate in the soli-lunar sense or the joint lagan-lunar rashi.Thanking you, > > Regards, > > Hari Malla > > > > , " zaobnali " <zaob16@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > I don't fully follow your argument. I think the rashis should be defined consistently mathematically according to some principle be it nirayan or sayana. The soli-lunar correction are usually performed to align the chandra calendar with the solar one. Could you clarify what it means to have one's say Mercury in Libra according to your system. > > > > > > Thanks > > > Boaz > > > > > > , " harimalla@ " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Mr. Boaz, > > > > I am in agreement with you.But my simple request is in our soli-lunar system,it is not enough to take the solar viewpoint only.The present tropical view point you are mentioning is purely solar season only.To this we also have to combine the lunar seasonal viewpoint too.Thus even in astrology, we not only take the lagan rashi, but also the chandra rashi and combine both.Thus unless there is coordination of the lagan rashi and lunar rashi, astrology is not complete.For this, we should have coordination of the solar and the lunar seasons.This combination requires that the system remain nirayan for 1000 to 2000 years.Then after that priod it is necessary to apply calender reform by shifting the nirayan sankranti one fortnight or a whole month, so that the coordination of the tropical, the sidereal systems including the luanr seasons occur. > > > > Thus in our soli-lunar system the coordinated approach is abslutely necessary.But many people, not able to understand this coordination between the tropical, sidereal and lunar natures, think our sytem is either tropical or sidereal only. This is their short sightedness. > > > > In fact so few people understand it that way, that I feel, the concept of the western tropical system and in opposition to it the indefinitely nirayan system has cropped up.Both are in the dark concerning our comprehensive or cooridinated system.This comprehensive system may be called as the lunar tropical system if you like, which incudes the sidereal system for aboout 1000 to 2000 years. > > > > I hope I have given some idea of the vedic system which is both sidereal and tropical at the same time. > > > > At the present time, we have to shift the rashis by 30 degreees backwards and thus both the solar and the lunar months in a coordinated way, so that the true spirit of the Vedas is fulfilled.This is the gist of the calendar reform movement presently being carried out. > > > > thanking you,I remain, > > > > Sincerly yours, > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > , " zaobnali " <zaob16@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > I do not believe in a subjective reality. I believe that A equals A and > > > > > that A does not equal B. > > > > > > > > > > I do know the meaning of the word Rashi . I was referring to their > > > > > attributes. Thank you for your kind words. > > > > > > > > > > Sri Yukteswar advocated science and the use of logic. He has also met > > > > > with tremendous opposition due to his attempt to align holidays with > > > > > objective realities and due to the face that he was not born brahmin. > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for those of who filled the test. > > > > > > > > > > Boaz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , sunil_bhattacharjya@ > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > So it appears that you are not aware that Rashi is mentioned in the > > > > > Vedanga Jyotisha, which is an ancient text. Secondly it also appears > > > > > that you are not aware of the genesis and etymology of the word Rashi. > > > > > Why don't you see a Sanskrit dictionary before talking about Rashi? You > > > > > will find there that Rashi means a group. In Indian Jyotish shastra > > > > > Rashis are groups of fixed Nakshatras and they cannot move. The > > > > > Tropical Zodiac later on took the word Rashi from the Sidereal Zodiac as > > > > > they could not coin an apprprpiate word for for the 12 divisions for the > > > > > moving Tropical Zodiac. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > zaobnali zaob16@ > > > > > > Re: Test of tropical versus > > > > > sidereal zodiac > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 9:49 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is important to understand conceptually what the rasis > > > > > mean. The rasis, for example, have certain qualities, mobile, fixed and > > > > > mutable, as well as the four elements. These qualities 3x4 = 12 rasis. > > > > > The Sun sets these qualities in motion and the tropical zodiac is Sun > > > > > based. The moveable signs Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn coincide > > > > > with the solstices and equinoxes. In addition it turns out that the > > > > > ancient scripts actually seem to suggest that the rishis used the > > > > > tropical zodiac (see Ernst's article on Ayanamsha). It may be that the > > > > > sidereal zodiac will eventually be proven correct but we can not ignore > > > > > the tropical zodiac and the reasoning behind, which is why such studies > > > > > are important. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Boaz > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil > > > > > Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The positions of all the nine grahas in the Tropical Zodiac are > > > > > ayanamsha-corrected in the Sidereal Zodiac. So this means the a > > > > > reoriented Tropical Ziodiac fits in the Sidereal Zodiac and the > > > > > interaction between the grahas based on the angles relative to each > > > > > other are the same in both the Zodiacs. On top of it the Sidereal Zodiac > > > > > takes into account the additional effects of the Nakshatras. So in my > > > > > opinion the Sidereal predictions are bound to be more precise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunl K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > zaobnali zaob16@ > > > > > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus > > > > > sidereal zodiac > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > > > > > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 4:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Glad to join this forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to > > > > > determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better. > > > > > Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are > > > > > encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing > > > > > some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the > > > > > test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on > > > > > all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred > > > > > more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal > > > > > the results to you all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.isjyotis h.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > Boaz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 dear malla ji i hav no options ,so passing all ur useless mails with baseless arguemnts .rgrds sunil nair , "harimalla" <harimalla wrote:>> Dear Mr. Boaz,> How about checking the accuracy of this coordinated system too, in the research carried out by Mr.Ersnt Wilhelm.It may be worth doing research on this basis too instead of only the tropical and the indefinite sidereal types.I feel this coordinated approach should give the maximum accuracy better than the above two types.Will it possible to convey this message to him? thank you,> Regards,> Hari Malla> , "zaobnali" zaob16@ wrote:> >> > Dear Hari Malla,> >> > Thank you for clarifying. The idea is interesting but it introduces some arbitrariness to the ayanamsha in my opinion. The tropcial and sidereal seem to be supported by certain principles. The latter zodiac is partitioned into 12 swathes of the sky according to a symbolic rulership and attributes. The former zodiac is set by the apparent tilt/course (ayana) of the Sun throughout the year. Your system somehow combines both principles by introducing a discontinuous shift of the zodiac each time the precession of the equinox crosses the midpoint of the tropcial sign. I am not ruling out your idea but it doesn't really make sense to me. Its interesting though.> >> > Boaz> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Dear Mr. Boaz, Sorry for repeating the reply,I just wanted to remind that for the calculations, the new ayanamsa for this coordinated soli-lunar system becomes -6 degrees instead of the old ayanamsa of 24 degrees.The rashis are shifted 30 degrees backwards to re-establish the new sidereal rashis to re-align with the tropical rashis.Thus if calculations are done on this basis taking the new ayanamsa as -6 degrees, the result of the above research should be better than both the purely tropical or purely niryan systems.thank you, Regards, Hari Malla , " zaobnali " <zaob16 wrote: > > Dear Hari Malla, > > Thank you for clarifying. The idea is interesting but it introduces some arbitrariness to the ayanamsha in my opinion. The tropcial and sidereal seem to be supported by certain principles. The latter zodiac is partitioned into 12 swathes of the sky according to a symbolic rulership and attributes. The former zodiac is set by the apparent tilt/course (ayana) of the Sun throughout the year. Your system somehow combines both principles by introducing a discontinuous shift of the zodiac each time the precession of the equinox crosses the midpoint of the tropcial sign. I am not ruling out your idea but it doesn't really make sense to me. Its interesting though. > > Boaz > > , " harimalla@ " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mr. Boaz, > > After the correction, the name of present Libra becomes Scorpio and Mercury instead of being in Libra will be in Scorpio. From the tropical viewpoint, the present Pisces has become 80 precent Aries, ayanamsa being nearly 24 degrees.This is the coordinated soli-lunar correction.This correction is demanded by the present equinox being closeer to the first point (sankranti) of Meen(Pisces) and not near the first of point of Mesh(Aries).Since we have to take the joint consideration of the sun and the moon both,it is high time to shift the soli-lunar sidereal rashi by thirty degrees i.e. the new name of the epochal Mesh(epochal sidereal Aries) is to be given to the present Meen (original Pisces). > > This is the necessaity of joint soli-lunar calender.This is to honour the lunar dates equal to or a little more than to the solar dates.This is the rule of dharmas shastras, when the lunar dates are given priority.After the correction the sidereal rashis become more accurate in the joint soli- lunar prediction in astrology and the religioius festivals are also celebrated at the correct lunar season and date.At present the link between the lunar date and the solar date has broken.The intended limit of the rule of adhimas has been violated.It has become something like the moslem lunar date without lunar seasons. After the correction the predictions are expected to be more accurate in the soli-lunar sense or the joint lagan-lunar rashi.Thanking you, > > Regards, > > Hari Malla > > > > , " zaobnali " <zaob16@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > I don't fully follow your argument. I think the rashis should be defined consistently mathematically according to some principle be it nirayan or sayana. The soli-lunar correction are usually performed to align the chandra calendar with the solar one. Could you clarify what it means to have one's say Mercury in Libra according to your system. > > > > > > Thanks > > > Boaz > > > > > > , " harimalla@ " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Mr. Boaz, > > > > I am in agreement with you.But my simple request is in our soli-lunar system,it is not enough to take the solar viewpoint only.The present tropical view point you are mentioning is purely solar season only.To this we also have to combine the lunar seasonal viewpoint too.Thus even in astrology, we not only take the lagan rashi, but also the chandra rashi and combine both.Thus unless there is coordination of the lagan rashi and lunar rashi, astrology is not complete.For this, we should have coordination of the solar and the lunar seasons.This combination requires that the system remain nirayan for 1000 to 2000 years.Then after that priod it is necessary to apply calender reform by shifting the nirayan sankranti one fortnight or a whole month, so that the coordination of the tropical, the sidereal systems including the luanr seasons occur. > > > > Thus in our soli-lunar system the coordinated approach is abslutely necessary.But many people, not able to understand this coordination between the tropical, sidereal and lunar natures, think our sytem is either tropical or sidereal only. This is their short sightedness. > > > > In fact so few people understand it that way, that I feel, the concept of the western tropical system and in opposition to it the indefinitely nirayan system has cropped up.Both are in the dark concerning our comprehensive or cooridinated system.This comprehensive system may be called as the lunar tropical system if you like, which incudes the sidereal system for aboout 1000 to 2000 years. > > > > I hope I have given some idea of the vedic system which is both sidereal and tropical at the same time. > > > > At the present time, we have to shift the rashis by 30 degreees backwards and thus both the solar and the lunar months in a coordinated way, so that the true spirit of the Vedas is fulfilled.This is the gist of the calendar reform movement presently being carried out. > > > > thanking you,I remain, > > > > Sincerly yours, > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > , " zaobnali " <zaob16@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > I do not believe in a subjective reality. I believe that A equals A and > > > > > that A does not equal B. > > > > > > > > > > I do know the meaning of the word Rashi . I was referring to their > > > > > attributes. Thank you for your kind words. > > > > > > > > > > Sri Yukteswar advocated science and the use of logic. He has also met > > > > > with tremendous opposition due to his attempt to align holidays with > > > > > objective realities and due to the face that he was not born brahmin. > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for those of who filled the test. > > > > > > > > > > Boaz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , sunil_bhattacharjya@ > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > So it appears that you are not aware that Rashi is mentioned in the > > > > > Vedanga Jyotisha, which is an ancient text. Secondly it also appears > > > > > that you are not aware of the genesis and etymology of the word Rashi. > > > > > Why don't you see a Sanskrit dictionary before talking about Rashi? You > > > > > will find there that Rashi means a group. In Indian Jyotish shastra > > > > > Rashis are groups of fixed Nakshatras and they cannot move. The > > > > > Tropical Zodiac later on took the word Rashi from the Sidereal Zodiac as > > > > > they could not coin an apprprpiate word for for the 12 divisions for the > > > > > moving Tropical Zodiac. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > zaobnali zaob16@ > > > > > > Re: Test of tropical versus > > > > > sidereal zodiac > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 9:49 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is important to understand conceptually what the rasis > > > > > mean. The rasis, for example, have certain qualities, mobile, fixed and > > > > > mutable, as well as the four elements. These qualities 3x4 = 12 rasis. > > > > > The Sun sets these qualities in motion and the tropical zodiac is Sun > > > > > based. The moveable signs Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn coincide > > > > > with the solstices and equinoxes. In addition it turns out that the > > > > > ancient scripts actually seem to suggest that the rishis used the > > > > > tropical zodiac (see Ernst's article on Ayanamsha). It may be that the > > > > > sidereal zodiac will eventually be proven correct but we can not ignore > > > > > the tropical zodiac and the reasoning behind, which is why such studies > > > > > are important. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Boaz > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil > > > > > Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The positions of all the nine grahas in the Tropical Zodiac are > > > > > ayanamsha-corrected in the Sidereal Zodiac. So this means the a > > > > > reoriented Tropical Ziodiac fits in the Sidereal Zodiac and the > > > > > interaction between the grahas based on the angles relative to each > > > > > other are the same in both the Zodiacs. On top of it the Sidereal Zodiac > > > > > takes into account the additional effects of the Nakshatras. So in my > > > > > opinion the Sidereal predictions are bound to be more precise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunl K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > zaobnali zaob16@ > > > > > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus > > > > > sidereal zodiac > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > > > > > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 4:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Glad to join this forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to > > > > > determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better. > > > > > Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are > > > > > encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing > > > > > some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the > > > > > test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on > > > > > all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred > > > > > more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal > > > > > the results to you all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.isjyotis h.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > Boaz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Dear Sunil Nairji,May I ask you why a scholar like you is helpless. Harimallaji is worse than AKK. AKK has been influenced by David Pingree so he thinks that Rashis are imported from the Greeks and that the Hindus learnt all astrology from the Greeks. AKK did not recognise the Nirayana system and he thinks that the Hindu astrology cannot be called Vedic astrology. For the same reason Akk thinks that Varahamihira was a Charlatan. But if you are careful you will see that this anti-Hindu acrtion of Harimallaji is for destroying the Nirayana system by delinking the Nirayana Rashis from the Nakshatras. Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Sun, 5/17/09, sunil nair <astro_tellerkerala wrote:sunil nair <astro_tellerkerala Re: Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 9:55 PM dear malla ji i hav no options ,so passing all ur useless mails with baseless arguemnts .rgrds sunil nair ancient_indian_ astrology, "harimalla@. .." <harimalla@.. .> wrote:>> Dear Mr. Boaz,> How about checking the accuracy of this coordinated system too, in the research carried out by Mr.Ersnt Wilhelm.It may be worth doing research on this basis too instead of only the tropical and the indefinite sidereal types.I feel this coordinated approach should give the maximum accuracy better than the above two types.Will it possible to convey this message to him? thank you,> Regards,> Hari Malla> ancient_indian_ astrology, "zaobnali" zaob16@ wrote:> >> > Dear Hari Malla,> >> > Thank you for clarifying. The idea is interesting but it introduces some arbitrariness to the ayanamsha in my opinion. The tropcial and sidereal seem to be supported by certain principles. The latter zodiac is partitioned into 12 swathes of the sky according to a symbolic rulership and attributes. The former zodiac is set by the apparent tilt/course (ayana) of the Sun throughout the year. Your system somehow combines both principles by introducing a discontinuous shift of the zodiac each time the precession of the equinox crosses the midpoint of the tropcial sign. I am not ruling out your idea but it doesn't really make sense to me. Its interesting though.> >> > Boaz> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 dear sunil bhattacharyya ji ha ha thanks for ur mail Hari malla seems to b ignorent / illitterate abt the astronomical and vedic litterature what ever deals abt astronomical /astrological part and he keep on repeating same jargon who ever comes with any kind of post even if it is irrevelent for a vedic calender even it seems he practicaly dont done a home work for such a calender as it is mathematicaly and theoreticaly impossible by wat he says .He knows or made others to blv his only aim is calender shud b changed >he is coming with a innocent pretext so i am helpless because the grp will fed up if i direct all my energies to this so called calender reform ,or i hav to ban him or waive his writing privilages in grp ,but i am the last person to ban or punish any body in a democratic forum like this >As i want all voices to b heard so long as effort is sincere so i am waiting for grp to fed up and demnd a action thanks for ur time rgrds sunil nair AKK has already prooved he is under a diffrnt mission than what he is supposed to b blving ( as the approach is not honest and sincere ) as he runs away frm discussion when ever he is cornered ,did he giv assurance like wat u demanded that he will stop this uselss exercise (the so called calender reform which is aimed against astrology destruction )when proof of rasi is given to him in vedas ,did he stopped even repeating the same question without refuting it ?? he was repeating the same thing always to any new comers who ever try to answer him ,means who ever try to study astrology will b hunted down by him or his gangs and this is the punishmnt for them ,i seen him he is happily roaming even in dozn memebr grps and repeating same slogan with all new comers or posts all same uselss arguemnts to some grps which is even formed to discuss abt mumbai film industry .or glamourous girls or even matrimonial hindu community sites and i am getting a copy mail frm many memebrs in this grp itself .So what it proovs . , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> Dear Sunil Nairji,> > May I ask you why a scholar like you is helpless. Harimallaji is worse than AKK. AKK has been influenced by David Pingree so he thinks that Rashis are imported from the Greeks and that the Hindus learnt all astrology from the Greeks. AKK did not recognise the Nirayana system and he thinks that the Hindu astrology cannot be called Vedic astrology. For the same reason Akk thinks that Varahamihira was a Charlatan. But if you are careful you will see that this anti-Hindu acrtion of Harimallaji is for destroying the Nirayana system by delinking the Nirayana Rashis from the Nakshatras. > > Regards,> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > --- On Sun, 5/17/09, sunil nair astro_tellerkerala wrote:> > sunil nair astro_tellerkerala Re: Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac> > Sunday, May 17, 2009, 9:55 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dear malla ji > > > i hav no options ,so passing all ur useless mails with baseless arguemnts .> > > > rgrds sunil nair > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "harimalla@ .." harimalla@ .> wrote:> >> > Dear Mr. Boaz,> > How about checking the accuracy of this coordinated system too, in the research carried out by Mr.Ersnt Wilhelm.It may be worth doing research on this basis too instead of only the tropical and the indefinite sidereal types.I feel this coordinated approach should give the maximum accuracy better than the above two types.Will it possible to convey this message to him? thank you,> > Regards,> > Hari Malla> > ancient_indian_ astrology, "zaobnali" zaob16@ wrote:> > >> > > Dear Hari Malla,> > >> > > Thank you for clarifying. The idea is interesting but it introduces some arbitrariness to the ayanamsha in my opinion. The tropcial and sidereal seem to be supported by certain principles. The latter zodiac is partitioned into 12 swathes of the sky according to a symbolic rulership and attributes. The former zodiac is set by the apparent tilt/course (ayana) of the Sun throughout the year. Your system somehow combines both principles by introducing a discontinuous shift of the zodiac each time the precession of the equinox crosses the midpoint of the tropcial sign. I am not ruling out your idea but it doesn't really make sense to me. Its interesting though.> > >> > > Boaz> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Dear Boaz, Hello ! Nice to meet you here in this forum also. You are warmly welcome in this forum of Shri Sreenadhji and other learned astrologers. I hope you have increased more knowledge on 'face reading'. Still i remember your few good readings on my face . Thanks for the link of Ersnt Wilhelm website. He is doing the good job of statistical reviewing on Ayanamsha. But his Test 1 is non-methodical and in general perspective. 1)While considering house results, nakshatra, or mar+saturn results etc, he must have followed authentic sources like BHPS etc for comparing the sidereal results and same for tropical astrology. 2)while conidering results of nakshatra he must taken account of moon nakshatra also for sidereal astrology. 3)Saturn + mars combination does not always bring disease to the specific part of body as per rashi mentioned in the website in sidereal astrology. Secondly also go for authentic sources also. This test was very generalize therefore for any Ayanamsha there was not a major difference. For three ayanamsha result is 33% average for each, absolutely unworthy. Though the attempt made by esteem astrologer is inspiring and can open more doors in the ways of thinking. Even a begger (fakir type having no knowledge on astrology) in India can tell 20 general things to any housewife and can win applause. The quote in the website which attracted me most is: " 3. Astrology is not a science but a symbolic practice. The symbols of astrology stimulate the astrologer's intuition so that the knowledge known about oneself, others and the universe inside oneself may come to the forefront of one's consciousness. If this is so, why would the ancient astrologers have create such elaborate mathematical techniques as are found in the ancient Hindu texts on astrology? " Unquote : Astrology is a symbolic practice which is more when we deal with palm ,face reading or omen readings or Tarot readings, etc. but when we come to horoscope reading Rishi has linked the some solar and stars phenomenon and more mathematic , may be we can more rely on these aspect also atleast 50 : 50 . Nice to meet you again Thankyou, Best Wishes, Vijay Goel Jaipur , " zaobnali " <zaob16 wrote: > > Dear All, > > Glad to join this forum. > > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better. Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal the results to you all. > > http://www.isjyotish.com/ > > Thanks, > Boaz > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Dear Vijay, Good to hear from you and thank you for your kind introduction. I find your posting to be balanced and informative. Your points are well taken. -- I believe that Ernst considers sidereal zodiac for the Moon Nakshatras which are star based. -- Test 1 does seem to indicate the Mars + Saturn conjunction does not effect the body part of the sign in which the conjunction takes place. It is nice to have this issue confirmed through an extended statistical analysis. In general, it is my understanding that Ernst is still working on the format of the questions, evolving to form a clearer and more objective set of questions. I believe that Ernst favors option 1 not option 3 which you quoted. This is why he rhetorically asks: " If this is so, why would the ancient astrologers have create such elaborate mathematical techniques as are found in the ancient Hindu texts on astrology? " Option 1 says: " The tests were simply not concrete enough. To deal with this possibility we have arranged a second test that is much more concrete dealing with body size and colors, two obvious things in each person's life. " I may however be misinterpreting Ernst's comments. Best wishes, Boaz , " Vijay Goel " <goyalvj wrote: > > Dear Boaz, > Hello ! > Nice to meet you here in this forum also. You are warmly welcome in this forum of Shri Sreenadhji and other learned astrologers. > I hope you have increased more knowledge on 'face reading'. Still i remember your few good readings on my face . > > Thanks for the link of Ersnt Wilhelm website. > He is doing the good job of statistical reviewing on Ayanamsha. > But his Test 1 is non-methodical and in general perspective. > > 1)While considering house results, nakshatra, or mar+saturn results etc, he must have followed authentic sources like BHPS etc for comparing the sidereal results and same for tropical astrology. > 2)while conidering results of nakshatra he must taken account of moon nakshatra also for sidereal astrology. > 3)Saturn + mars combination does not always bring disease to the specific part of body as per rashi mentioned in the website in sidereal astrology. Secondly also go for authentic sources also. > > This test was very generalize therefore for any Ayanamsha there was not a major difference. For three ayanamsha result is 33% average for each, absolutely unworthy. > > Though the attempt made by esteem astrologer is inspiring and can open more doors in the ways of thinking. > > Even a begger (fakir type having no knowledge on astrology) in India can tell 20 general things to any housewife and can win applause. > > The quote in the website which attracted me most is: > " 3. Astrology is not a science but a symbolic practice. The symbols of astrology stimulate the astrologer's intuition so that the knowledge known about oneself, others and the universe inside oneself may come to the forefront of one's consciousness. If this is so, why would the ancient astrologers have create such elaborate mathematical techniques as are found in the ancient Hindu texts on astrology? " > > Unquote : > > Astrology is a symbolic practice which is more when we deal with palm ,face reading or omen readings or Tarot readings, etc. > but when we come to horoscope reading Rishi has linked the some solar and stars phenomenon and more mathematic , may be we can more rely on these aspect also atleast 50 : 50 . > > Nice to meet you again > > Thankyou, > Best Wishes, > Vijay Goel > Jaipur > > , " zaobnali " <zaob16@> wrote: > > > > Dear All, > > > > Glad to join this forum. > > > > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better. Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal the results to you all. > > > > http://www.isjyotish.com/ > > > > Thanks, > > Boaz > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Dear Hari Malla, I am not an intimate of Ernst. I just think he is very intelligent and knowledgeable and I follow up on his works and ideas. The reason for my posting on this site was due to my " selfish " interest to elicit more responses to his tests to increase the statistics. I believe in fundamental research and secondly in application. Ernst is open minded and responsive and I believe he will reply to your post on his forum or privately. Thank you Boaz , " harimalla " <harimalla wrote: > > Dear Mr. Boaz, > How about checking the accuracy of this coordinated system too, in the research carried out by Mr.Ersnt Wilhelm.It may be worth doing research on this basis too instead of only the tropical and the indefinite sidereal types.I feel this coordinated approach should give the maximum accuracy better than the above two types.Will it possible to convey this message to him? thank you, > Regards, > Hari Malla > , " zaobnali " <zaob16@> wrote: > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > Thank you for clarifying. The idea is interesting but it introduces some arbitrariness to the ayanamsha in my opinion. The tropcial and sidereal seem to be supported by certain principles. The latter zodiac is partitioned into 12 swathes of the sky according to a symbolic rulership and attributes. The former zodiac is set by the apparent tilt/course (ayana) of the Sun throughout the year. Your system somehow combines both principles by introducing a discontinuous shift of the zodiac each time the precession of the equinox crosses the midpoint of the tropcial sign. I am not ruling out your idea but it doesn't really make sense to me. Its interesting though. > > > > Boaz > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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