Guest guest Report post Posted November 12, 2009 advaitin , " madathilnair " <madathilnair wrote: > > Dear Shri Richarkar, > > You wrote to Tony-ji in your 46917: " If nothing happens, there would be only stillness and quiet and not even these attributes. " . > > 1. Can that stillness and quiet have any validity without an intelligence perceiving them. Something has to be there to say that there is stillness and quiet - to appreciate their presence. > > 2. That perceiving intelligence is the Consciousness of Advaita. > > 3. Thus, that Consciousness IS, everything else is - names, forms, variety, diversity, time, space and the happenings involving them, like in the analogy gold is, gold ornaments are. > > 4. Thus, in a manner of speaking, everything is 'within' Consciousness - not aside from or outside it - like all gold ornaments are in gold. Consciousness is 'KNOWING' in which the knower, known and the process of knowing are inseparably merged. > > 5. Since even space and time are 'within' Consciousness (as we are aware of them), there can be no 'where' and 'when' to Consciousness considered as a whole or per se. > > 6. Consciousness is thus an insidelessness and beyondlessness and, therefore, a nothing-happening-ness. > > 7. If we therefore do see happenings, then there sure is an error somewhere. It could only be seeming. There is no other answer to the conundrum. > > 8. Advaita endeavours to correct that error. That is what Mandukya achieves. > > 9. No samAdhi is needed to understand this much. > > 10. However, an intuitive quantum leap is needed to 'be the understanding'. Call that leap any name by. > > 11. That leap is not possible without our cellular minds of pettiness and isolated individuality, so totally brainwashed, conditioned and condemned to toil with this phenomenal, dissolving in the universal. Thus, the need for all the sAdhana we talk about. > > Sorry for barging in between you and Tony-ji. Couldn't resist it. An Advaitin's frailty and failing! > > Best regards. > > Madathil Nair > Great post Madathil Nair, I'll have to re-read it to get all of it but at first glance it seems to relate to something I wrote previously elsewhere: The duality of many body/mind entities appears in the one consciousness. No consciousness (as in deep sleep), and there will be no appearance. Yet the consciousness (sat-chit-ananda) is witness to the other states, i.e., waking, dream, and deep sleep (I question this last one, that anything witnesses deep sleep). It has attributes, thus limitations. With a witness there is still the duality of subject/object. Object is therefore relegated to an imaginary thingness. All of the above is precluded by the nameless Ultimate Reality. Also I would add, in reply to your number 10., What is, is already what is. If Infinite Understanding is already the case, already what is, the leap would be in supposing we are other than that and had to leap there. All input is more than appreciated. Best wishes, Richard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 12, 2009 No consciousness (as in deep sleep), and there will be no appearance. Yet the consciousness (sat-chit-ananda) is witness to the other states, i.e., waking, dream, and deep sleep (I question this last one, that anything witnesses deep sleep). It has attributes, thus limitations. praNAms Hare Krishna Sorry for the intrusion!! no consciousness in deep sleep??!! do you mean to say deep sleep state is just like a dead state?? A witness does not mean that he has to have something to witness always. There is no space (desha) & time (kAla) botheration in sushupti...but still the Atman is a witness to this nothingness state...we cannot discount him by saying noconsciousness in deep sleep state...He is still sAkshi despite the fact that there is no appearance..In this state he is sAkshi chetaH, kevalo nirguNascha.....Or am I misreading something in your statement prabhuji ?? Kindly clarify. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 12, 2009 Dear Richard, Good that you signed off as Richard. I don't have to address you as Richarkar any more. BTW, are you our Richard at Ramanashram? I see that Bhaskarji has explained well. Here is the clarification from my side: Yes, there is no consciousness ('c' small) in deep sleep. But, we have already seen that Consciousness ('C' capital) is always there whether 'one' is dead, alive, or dreaming. It is that limited 'one' who is unconscious in deep sleep and not Consciousness ('C' capital). It is that limited 'one' which lives petrified of death. Consciousness will remain even when life in this universe is completely obliterated because some intelligence ought to exist to validate the existence of the residual barrenness. Its being always there is the 'witnessing' we mean in Vedanta. That witnessing is not literal akin to any action like your or my watching a cricket match. It is the very PRESENCE of the always-present Consciousness which validates the 'happenings'. Yet, it is not a cause. It has no agency in actions which Bh. Ramana described as jadaM (dead)in the first verse of his famous Upadeshasaaram. It is due to that continuous presence that we wake up from the deep sleep of unconsciousness to exclaim: " Oh, I fully enjoyed my sleep " . That exclamation is suggestive of a continuity that continued even while we were apparently unconscious in deep sleep. Whether the things of waking, the images of dreams or the inexplicable pleasure in deep sleep are there or not does not matter to Consciousness. Consciousness is Fullness despite their presence or absence. That is the essence of the great Upanishad mantra " pUrNamadah pUrNamidaM.... " . There is therefore no duality in Consciousness whether we are awake, dreaming, or dead asleep or dead. It is always Fullness. Fullness can't afford to lose or gain or split. I agree with you on your comment about my No. 10. Self-realization is a leap that in reality is a non-leap. There is no one progressing with sAdhana - 5%, 20%, 50%, 80% and so on to a big bang - a one hundred percent explosion called Self-Realization. If Self-Knowledge is to occur progressively like that, like a child improving his exam scores to full marks, then it is like everything mithyA and not at all worth-pursuing. Yet, sAdhana is all that we need now. One just has to remember that Self-Knowledge can't be a result of anything as it is not a cause of anything either. Best regards. Madathil Nair ______________________ advaitin , " richarkar " <richarkar wrote: > The duality of many body/mind entities appears in the one consciousness. No consciousness (as in deep sleep), and there will be no appearance. Yet the consciousness (sat-chit-ananda) is witness to the other states, i.e., waking, dream, and deep sleep (I question this last one, that anything witnesses deep sleep). It has attributes, thus limitations. > > With a witness there is still the duality of subject/object. Object is therefore relegated to an imaginary thingness. > > All of the above is precluded by the nameless Ultimate Reality. > > Also I would add, in reply to your number 10., What is, is already what is. If Infinite Understanding is already the case, already what is, the leap would be in supposing we are other than that and had to leap there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 12, 2009 advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote: > > No consciousness (as in deep sleep), and there will be no appearance. Yet > the consciousness (sat-chit-ananda) is witness to the other states, i.e., > waking, dream, and deep sleep (I question this last one, that anything > witnesses deep sleep). It has attributes, thus limitations. > praNAms > Hare Krishna > Sorry for the intrusion!! no consciousness in deep sleep??!! do you mean > to say deep sleep state is just like a dead state?? A witness does not > mean that he has to have something to witness always. There is no space > (desha) & time (kAla) botheration in sushupti...but still the Atman is a > witness to this nothingness state...we cannot discount him by saying > noconsciousness in deep sleep state...He is still sAkshi despite the fact > that there is no appearance..In this state he is sAkshi chetaH, kevalo > nirguNascha.....Or am I misreading something in your statement prabhuji > ?? Kindly clarify. > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! > bhaskar > Hi Bhaskar, You weren't misreading me. My thinking was that in the deep sleep state, as in death (possibly), and under anesthesia, there is no consciousness (turya). What remains is turyatita, beyond the four padas. My thinking was that like the dream state, deep sleep state, and awake state, consciousness also is transient. And please, no one need tell me the oft stated, " When you wake up in the morning your consciousness knows if you slept well " . The feeling of a good night's sleep is a feeling of the mind/body after it awakens, imo. My thinking was if there is nothing to witness, there is no witness. The two are co-dependently arising. Just like: No qestions = no questioners. But what you say also makes sense to me and I think you speak of Pure Consciousness, which may be the same as what I think of as Turyatita. Is this so? Regards, Richard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 12, 2009 advaitin , " richarkar " <richarkar wrote: > > > > advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr@> wrote: > > > Hi Bhaskar, > > You weren't misreading me. My thinking was that in the deep sleep state, as in death (possibly), and under anesthesia, there is no consciousness (turya). What remains is turyatita, beyond the four padas. > > My thinking was that like the dream state, deep sleep state, and awake state, consciousness also is transient. And please, no one need tell me the oft stated, " When you wake up in the morning your consciousness knows if you slept well " . The feeling of a good night's sleep is a feeling of the mind/body after it awakens, imo. > > > My thinking was if there is nothing to witness, there is no witness. The two are co-dependently arising. Just like: No qestions = no questioners. > > But what you say also makes sense to me and I think you speak of Pure Consciousness, which may be the same as what I think of as Turyatita. Is this so? > > Regards, > Richard Namaste R, There is consciousness in the deep sleep state...the consciousnes of observing a continuous thought of nothing....ie deep sleep is a thought..Awakening and feeling well is the memory coming down from the bliss state or anandamayakosa...........but it requires consciousness in all states............Cheers Tony. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 12, 2009 of shruti vAkya-s. > > > > Hari Hari Hari Bol!! > > bhaskar > > Namaste B, > > The problem lies in presuming there is in the first place a creator, that there is a jiva and there is a dream. The reason why you don't think that you have anything to do with it all, is the false identification with the body/jiva and not the Universal Consciousness or Brahman. If you identified with the Universal Consciousness 'I Am' then you would be able to answer your own questions if there were any need to ask...Ultimately it is AjatiVada...it never happened...Tony. > > --- End forwarded message --- > advaitin , " richarkar " <richarkar wrote: > > > > advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr@> wrote: > > > Hi Bhaskar, > > You weren't misreading me. My thinking was that in the deep sleep state, as in death (possibly), and under anesthesia, there is no consciousness (turya). What remains is turyatita, beyond the four padas. > > My thinking was that like the dream state, deep sleep state, and awake state, consciousness also is transient. And please, no one need tell me the oft stated, " When you wake up in the morning your consciousness knows if you slept well " . The feeling of a good night's sleep is a feeling of the mind/body after it awakens, imo. > > > My thinking was if there is nothing to witness, there is no witness. The two are co-dependently arising. Just like: No qestions = no questioners. > > But what you say also makes sense to me and I think you speak of Pure Consciousness, which may be the same as what I think of as Turyatita. Is this so? > > Regards, > Richard Namaste R, There is consciousness in the deep sleep state...the consciousnes of observing a continuous thought of nothing....ie deep sleep is a thought..Awakening and feeling well is the memory coming down from the bliss state or anandamayakosa...........but it requires consciousness in all states............Cheers Tony. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 13, 2009 Dear Sir, Pranams. Dakshinamurthy stotra has all the answers for our questions. The 6th sloka " rAhu grasta divAkarEndu sadruSho mAyA.... " answers to this question. Who is the Witness during the Deep Sleep? When one wakes up from deep sleep, who says that " I had a wonderful deep sleep tonight " . I think this has been wonderfully explained by Sankara with the analogy of eclipse. regs, sriram advaitin , " aoclery " <aoclery wrote: > > > > advaitin , " richarkar " <richarkar@> wrote: > > > > > > > > advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Bhaskar, > > > > You weren't misreading me. My thinking was that in the deep sleep state, as in death (possibly), and under anesthesia, there is no consciousness (turya). What remains is turyatita, beyond the four padas. > > > > My thinking was that like the dream state, deep sleep state, and awake state, consciousness also is transient. And please, no one need tell me the oft stated, " When you wake up in the morning your consciousness knows if you slept well " . The feeling of a good night's sleep is a feeling of the mind/body after it awakens, imo. > > > > > > My thinking was if there is nothing to witness, there is no witness. The two are co-dependently arising. Just like: No qestions = no questioners. > > > > But what you say also makes sense to me and I think you speak of Pure Consciousness, which may be the same as what I think of as Turyatita. Is this so? > > > > Regards, > > Richard > > Namaste R, > > There is consciousness in the deep sleep state...the consciousnes of observing a continuous thought of nothing....ie deep sleep is a thought..Awakening and feeling well is the memory coming down from the bliss state or anandamayakosa...........but it requires consciousness in all states............Cheers Tony. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 13, 2009 The 6th sloka " rAhu grasta divAkarEndu sadruSho mAyA.... " answers to this question. Who is the Witness during the Deep Sleep? When one wakes up from deep sleep, who says that " I had a wonderful deep sleep tonight " . I think this has been wonderfully explained by Sankara with the analogy of eclipse. praNAms Hare Krishna Sorry, I could not make out how this analogy of eclipse can explain the 'witness' in deep sleep!! shankara says jeeva is 'eka' with brahman 'always' & due to upAdhi saMparka ( due to identification with limited adjuncts) he sees other things & beings in waking & dream states. But in deep sleep state, since there is no upAdhi bandhana, he will be in his svarUpa. Shankara says in sUtra bhAshya : 'svapnajAgaritayOstu upAdhisaMparkavashAt pararUpApattimiva apekshatadupashamAt sushupte svarUpApattiH vakshyate. So, I dont know how this elipse analogy explains the jeeva svarUpa in sushupti. KIndly elaborate. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 13, 2009 My thinking was that like the dream state, deep sleep state, and awake state, consciousness also is transient. And please, no one need tell me the oft stated, " When you wake up in the morning your consciousness knows if you slept well " . The feeling of a good night's sleep is a feeling of the mind/body after it awakens, imo. But what you say also makes sense to me and I think you speak of Pure Consciousness, which may be the same as what I think of as Turyatita. Is this so? praNAms Sri Richard prabhuji Hare Krishna I think Sri Madathil Nair prabhuji has explained this well by making the difference in capital 'C' & small 'c' :-)) Moreover, I think Sri shankara himself takes these questions & answers in sUtra bhAshya...He quotes the ajAtashatru & bAlaki saMvAda ( dialogues between these two). Here ajAta shatru asks balaki : " where did the person here sleep?? where was he earlier?? what makes him to come back?? shankara clarifies thus : sushupti kAle cha pareNa brahmaNA jeevaH ekatAM gacchati, parasmAccha brahmaNaH prANAdikaM jagat jAyate iti vedAnta maryAdA. Here shankara says in sushupti jeeva becomes one with brahma...and in other two states it is from brahman ONLY prANa and other world originates...So pure consciousness pervades all the three states & above that is the reason why shruti says the tureeyAtman is something different from vishva, taijasa & prAjnA (Atman in waking, dream & deep sleep respectively)...And shankara also endorses this view by saying : advaitaM bhedavikalparahitaM chaturthaM tureeyaM manyante, pateeya mAna 'pAdatrayarUpa vailakshaNyAt'. BTW, I dont know what would be this 'turiyAteeta' status of Atman. When one realizes all the three states are 'kevala adhyArOpita' on nirvikAri, nirvishesha brahman, it is said that he establishes himself in the state of tureeya...but it is in noway an alien & separate state to other three popularly known states. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 13, 2009 The 6th sloka " rAhu grasta divAkarEndu sadruSho mAyA.... " answers to this question. Who is the Witness during the Deep Sleep? When one wakes up from deep sleep, who says that " I had a wonderful deep sleep tonight " . I think this has been wonderfully explained by Sankara with the analogy of eclipse. praNAms Hare Krishna Sorry, I could not make out how this analogy of eclipse can explain the 'witness' in deep sleep!! shankara says jeeva is 'eka' with brahman 'always' & due to upAdhi saMparka ( due to identification with limited adjuncts) he sees other things & beings in waking & dream states. But in deep sleep state, since there is no upAdhi bandhana, he will be in his svarUpa. Shankara says in sUtra bhAshya : 'svapnajAgaritayOstu upAdhisaMparkavashAt pararUpApattimiva apekshatadupashamAt sushupte svarUpApattiH vakshyate. So, I dont know how this elipse analogy explains the jeeva svarUpa in sushupti. KIndly elaborate. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 13, 2009 Pranam Bhaskarji, I would answer your question of Daksh. stotra probably in evening as i am at office with my boss hanging around. BTW, " turiyatita " avastha is not mentioned in Vedanta. I don't know how Shri Nairji mentioned this. When turiyatita is defined that means you are limiting the turiya avastha. But IMHO Vedanta stops at Turiya avastha. Yes, Shakta tantras define this 5th state which is even the source of Para, Pashyanti, Madhyama, Vaikhari Vak (Speech) states. It is called " Mula para dasa " according to Shri Bhaskararaya Makhin. Kindly enlighten. regs. sriram advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote: > > My thinking was that like the dream state, deep sleep state, and awake > state, consciousness also is transient. And please, no one need tell me > the oft stated, " When you wake up in the morning your consciousness knows > if you slept well " . The feeling of a good night's sleep is a feeling of > the mind/body after it awakens, imo. > But what you say also makes sense to me and I think you speak of Pure > Consciousness, which may be the same as what I think of as Turyatita. Is > this so? > praNAms Sri Richard prabhuji > Hare Krishna > I think Sri Madathil Nair prabhuji has explained this well by making the > difference in capital 'C' & small 'c' :-)) > Moreover, I think Sri shankara himself takes these questions & answers in > sUtra bhAshya...He quotes the ajAtashatru & bAlaki saMvAda ( dialogues > between these two). Here ajAta shatru asks balaki : " where did the > person here sleep?? where was he earlier?? what makes him to come back?? > shankara clarifies thus : sushupti kAle cha pareNa brahmaNA jeevaH ekatAM > gacchati, parasmAccha brahmaNaH prANAdikaM jagat jAyate iti vedAnta > maryAdA. Here shankara says in sushupti jeeva becomes one with > brahma...and in other two states it is from brahman ONLY prANa and other > world originates...So pure consciousness pervades all the three states & > above that is the reason why shruti says the tureeyAtman is something > different from vishva, taijasa & prAjnA (Atman in waking, dream & deep > sleep respectively)...And shankara also endorses this view by saying : > advaitaM bhedavikalparahitaM chaturthaM tureeyaM manyante, pateeya mAna > 'pAdatrayarUpa vailakshaNyAt'. BTW, I dont know what would be this > 'turiyAteeta' status of Atman. When one realizes all the three states are > 'kevala adhyArOpita' on nirvikAri, nirvishesha brahman, it is said that he > establishes himself in the state of tureeya...but it is in noway an alien > & separate state to other three popularly known states. > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! > bhaskar > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 13, 2009 Pranam Bhaskarji, praNAms Sri Sriram prabhuji Hare Krishna Sri Ram prabhuji : I would answer your question of Daksh. stotra probably in evening as i am at office with my boss hanging around. bhaskar : Kindly take your time, I am not in a hurry. Fortunately, for the last couple of days my boss is on tour, hence, doing lot of vedAnta chinta since y'day in the list...If he would have been around there, he would always, keeps an 'affectionate' hawk eye on me :-)) For one or the other trifle reason he would be calling me & ensure that I'll be there beside him always during office hours:-)) Sri Ram prabhuji : BTW, " turiyatita " avastha is not mentioned in Vedanta. I don't know how Shri Nairji mentioned this. When turiyatita is defined that means you are limiting the turiya avastha. bhaskar : Infact, it is Sri Richard prabhuji who used the word 'turiyAteeta' and I told him I dont know anything about that state coz. there is no reference for this state in shruti-s & shankara bhAshya. Sri Ram prabhuji : But IMHO Vedanta stops at Turiya avastha. Yes, Shakta tantras define this 5th state which is even the source of Para, Pashyanti, Madhyama, Vaikhari Vak (Speech) states. It is called " Mula para dasa " according to Shri Bhaskararaya Makhin. bhaskar : may be...but as you have rightly said there is no mention of beyond turiya state in vedAnta...and in an advaitin forum like this it is not appropriate to talk about shAkta taNtra in place of shankara vedAnta :-)) Kindly enlighten. regs. sriram Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 13, 2009 advaitin , " madathilnair " <madathilnair wrote: > > Dear Richard, > > Good that you signed off as Richard. I don't have to address you as Richarkar any more. BTW, are you our Richard at Ramanashram? That is another Richard. I am your Richard in the U.S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 14, 2009 advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote: > > Pranam Bhaskarji, > praNAms Sri Sriram prabhuji > Hare Krishna > Sri Ram prabhuji : > > Sri Ram prabhuji : > BTW, " turiyatita " avastha is not mentioned in Vedanta. I don't know how > Shri Nairji mentioned this. When turiyatita is defined that means you are > limiting the turiya avastha. Turyatita is Not an avasta. In fact the term " turya " limits IT to a mere 4th state, when IT is Beyond all states and is not a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th or any state whatsoever, but a ONE and only. The above can be found in the talks of Ramana Maharshi and the writings of Siddharameshwar Maharaj. I think mention of turyatita can also be found in the Upanishads, but not too often. But I don't wish to take anyone away from their work. :-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 14, 2009 2009/11/14 richarkar <richarkar > > Turyatita is Not an avasta. In fact the term " turya " limits IT to a mere 4th state, when IT is Beyond all states and is not a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th or any state whatsoever, but a ONE and only. > You can conceive of as many states as you want. What is classically called turiya is the same as what you call turiyatita. Turiya is not a state either. Since some people misunderstood it to be a state, others had to conceive of a " turiyatita " . If you want to understand Vedanta properly you need to go from the ground up with the classical tradition. Merely reading the works of realized sages like Ramana is not going to help. That can be a useful supplement but is not a substitute for rigorous traditional training. There have been people who were " born advanced " and did not need such training (such as Ramana himself) but such are few and far between. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 15, 2009 Dear Sriramji, I saw this just now as I was off net for a couple of days. I have nothing to do with the term 'turIyAtIta'. For me also, the last and permanent substratum is 'turIya'. Regards. Madathil Nair __________________ advaitin , " Venkata Sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: > > Pranam Bhaskarji, > > I would answer your question of Daksh. stotra probably in evening as i am at office with my boss hanging around. > > BTW, " turiyatita " avastha is not mentioned in Vedanta. I don't know how Shri Nairji mentioned this. When turiyatita is defined that means you are limiting the turiya avastha. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 17, 2009 Dear BhaskarYou have sent excellent quotes of Sankara Bhagavath pada.thank yousekhar The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
