no doer of ego....nobody doing anything for real/-- no nothing for real

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33

wrote:

>

>

> an ego mind is dreaming about oneness of his/her imaginary entity with

infinite emptyness...

>

> an ego mind is Whole of such dream

>

> ...

>

> nothing else

 

if that!

 

seems to me that ego mind is one of

the great myths of non-dual philosophy.

 

as far as I know, no one has ever

encountered one in the wild.

 

how can any such concept arise if

" this moment " is unconstrained,

uncontained?

 

and " this moment " (not an entity of

any sort) is certainly unconstrained,

uncontained.

 

and I add that only what *is* this moment

is in any sense actual.

 

Therefore 'ego' (along with any derivatives

such as 'ego mind') is not actual.

 

Indeed, does that mean we can dispense of talking

about it altogether?

 

 

I.e. what do we need to " get clear about " when

the luminousness of this moment is so inescapable?

 

 

And isn't it ironic that there are people trying

to find their way into The Now when it is

absolutely impossible to escape in the first place?

 

Off hand I'd say that tops all ironies that I can

think of.

 

 

Bill

 

 

>

> ...

>

>

> Marc

>

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> >

> >

> > an ego mind is dreaming about oneness of his/her imaginary entity with

infinite emptyness...

> >

> > an ego mind is Whole of such dream

> >

> > ...

> >

> > nothing else

>

> if that!

 

 

 

:-)

 

I look in the mirror......I can see my face.....the image seems so real.

 

I reach my hand out.......and the image reaches out to me.......

 

......yup......I think it's real

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

> seems to me that ego mind is one of

> the great myths of non-dual philosophy.

>

> as far as I know, no one has ever

> encountered one in the wild.

>

> how can any such concept arise if

> " this moment " is unconstrained,

> uncontained?

 

 

 

 

 

Without the perspective of the psychological entity the world flows

along...easily and naturally.

 

It watches...bemused at the floundering little creature......trying so hard to

keep its head above the current.

 

It observes for a while then shifts its attention to the scenery.....and

disappears in to the essence of its totality......only to re-emerge in the

floundering.

 

 

LOL

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

> and " this moment " (not an entity of

> any sort) is certainly unconstrained,

> uncontained.

>

> and I add that only what *is* this moment

> is in any sense actual.

>

> Therefore 'ego' (along with any derivatives

> such as 'ego mind') is not actual.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is actual only in the sense that the buildings in your dream last night are

actual.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

> Indeed, does that mean we can dispense of talking

> about it altogether?

>

>

> I.e. what do we need to " get clear about " when

> the luminousness of this moment is so inescapable?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:-)

That's what babies are always telling us by their pointing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

>

> And isn't it ironic that there are people trying

> to find their way into The Now when it is

> absolutely impossible to escape in the first place?

>

> Off hand I'd say that tops all ironies that I can

> think of.

>

>

> Bill

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

I think that the fact that one can become aware of that tops the fact that it

occurs.

 

 

 

......but I don't know how to say that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

toombaru

 

 

 

 

 

:-)

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> >

> >

> > an ego mind is dreaming about oneness of his/her imaginary entity with

infinite emptyness...

> >

> > an ego mind is Whole of such dream

> >

> > ...

> >

> > nothing else

>

> if that!

>

> seems to me that ego mind is one of

> the great myths of non-dual philosophy.

>

> as far as I know, no one has ever

> encountered one in the wild.

>

> how can any such concept arise if

> " this moment " is unconstrained,

> uncontained?

>

> and " this moment " (not an entity of

> any sort) is certainly unconstrained,

> uncontained.

>

> and I add that only what *is* this moment

> is in any sense actual.

>

> Therefore 'ego' (along with any derivatives

> such as 'ego mind') is not actual.

>

> Indeed, does that mean we can dispense of talking

> about it altogether?

>

>

> I.e. what do we need to " get clear about " when

> the luminousness of this moment is so inescapable?

>

>

> And isn't it ironic that there are people trying

> to find their way into The Now when it is

> absolutely impossible to escape in the first place?

>

> Off hand I'd say that tops all ironies that I can

> think of.

>

>

> Bill

>

>

> >

.....look like you have nice dreams....about many interesting concepts....

 

such dreams are building up this imaginary " Bill " ...

 

or/and such dreams try to remain being attachted to this imaginary " Bill " ...

 

so this " Bill " is not?...

 

would say....yes, " Bill " Is....and why not...?

 

....no problem with an ego " Bill " .....or an ego " Marc " ....or " bbb " ....etc...

 

.....

 

If one is aware of " the dream " ....or...the illusion....or the

imaginations....or....the unreal....or....or...

 

then it is easier to enjoy existence

 

.....

 

like someone who know that there are no crocodiles & sharks in the swimming

pool....

 

and therefore enjoy to jump inside....

 

.....

 

wish a nice further swimming....

 

wherever....

 

 

 

Marc

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33

wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > an ego mind is dreaming about oneness of his/her imaginary entity with

infinite emptyness...

> > >

> > > an ego mind is Whole of such dream

> > >

> > > ...

> > >

> > > nothing else

> >

> > if that!

> >

> > seems to me that ego mind is one of

> > the great myths of non-dual philosophy.

> >

> > as far as I know, no one has ever

> > encountered one in the wild.

> >

> > how can any such concept arise if

> > " this moment " is unconstrained,

> > uncontained?

> >

> > and " this moment " (not an entity of

> > any sort) is certainly unconstrained,

> > uncontained.

> >

> > and I add that only what *is* this moment

> > is in any sense actual.

> >

> > Therefore 'ego' (along with any derivatives

> > such as 'ego mind') is not actual.

> >

> > Indeed, does that mean we can dispense of talking

> > about it altogether?

> >

> >

> > I.e. what do we need to " get clear about " when

> > the luminousness of this moment is so inescapable?

> >

> >

> > And isn't it ironic that there are people trying

> > to find their way into The Now when it is

> > absolutely impossible to escape in the first place?

> >

> > Off hand I'd say that tops all ironies that I can

> > think of.

> >

> >

> > Bill

> >

> >

> > >

> ....look like you have nice dreams....about many interesting concepts....

>

> such dreams are building up this imaginary " Bill " ...

>

> or/and such dreams try to remain being attachted to this imaginary " Bill " ...

>

> so this " Bill " is not?...

>

> would say....yes, " Bill " Is....and why not...?

>

> ...no problem with an ego " Bill " .....or an ego " Marc " ....or " bbb " ....etc...

>

> ....

>

> If one is aware of " the dream " ....or...the illusion....or the

imaginations....or....the unreal....or....or...

>

> then it is easier to enjoy existence

>

> ....

>

> like someone who know that there are no crocodiles & sharks in the swimming

pool....

>

> and therefore enjoy to jump inside....

>

> ....

>

> wish a nice further swimming....

>

> wherever....

>

>

>

> Marc

>

 

 

Ps:

 

http://lancemannion.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/hockney_02.jpg

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33

wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > an ego mind is dreaming about oneness of his/her imaginary entity with

infinite emptyness...

> > >

> > > an ego mind is Whole of such dream

> > >

> > > ...

> > >

> > > nothing else

> >

> > if that!

> >

> > seems to me that ego mind is one of

> > the great myths of non-dual philosophy.

> >

> > as far as I know, no one has ever

> > encountered one in the wild.

> >

> > how can any such concept arise if

> > " this moment " is unconstrained,

> > uncontained?

> >

> > and " this moment " (not an entity of

> > any sort) is certainly unconstrained,

> > uncontained.

> >

> > and I add that only what *is* this moment

> > is in any sense actual.

> >

> > Therefore 'ego' (along with any derivatives

> > such as 'ego mind') is not actual.

> >

> > Indeed, does that mean we can dispense of talking

> > about it altogether?

> >

> >

> > I.e. what do we need to " get clear about " when

> > the luminousness of this moment is so inescapable?

> >

> >

> > And isn't it ironic that there are people trying

> > to find their way into The Now when it is

> > absolutely impossible to escape in the first place?

> >

> > Off hand I'd say that tops all ironies that I can

> > think of.

> >

> >

> > Bill

> >

> >

> > >

> ....look like you have nice dreams....about many interesting concepts....

>

> such dreams are building up this imaginary " Bill " ...

>

> or/and such dreams try to remain being attachted to this imaginary " Bill " ...

>

> so this " Bill " is not?...

>

> would say....yes, " Bill " Is....and why not...?

>

> ...no problem with an ego " Bill " .....or an ego " Marc " ....or " bbb " ....etc...

>

> ....

>

> If one is aware of " the dream " ....or...the illusion....or the

imaginations....or....the unreal....or....or...

>

> then it is easier to enjoy existence

>

> ....

>

> like someone who know that there are no crocodiles & sharks in the swimming

pool....

>

> and therefore enjoy to jump inside....

>

> ....

>

> wish a nice further swimming....

>

> wherever....

>

>

>

> Marc

>

 

I don't know of any sense of " Bill " . I can imagine to a degree

having a " sense " of someone I know well, but even that is very

fluid. And seems the more I know someone the more fluid that

becomes, so that re close friends it is more mystery than anything

particular. If I contemplate one friend, and then subsequently

another, it is true that the " vibes " felt, the colors, hues, shades,

the energy patterns, the spatial scope and even kind of space that

comes up is quite distinct in each case. But it is so fluid it that

an hour later contemplating the same friend will be markedly

different. It is like contemplating a rich symphony after listening

to it for the first time. There may be nothing specific in such

contemplation. And an hour later what comes to mind re the same

symphony may be rather different.

 

But for " myself " nothing comes to mind at all. " Myself " is not an

object in this phenomenal space. In fact nothing is really an object

in this phenomenal space. There is nothing specific and nothing

stands still or persists.

 

I am writing this message to Marc, so is " Marc " then an object in

consciousness, a fixed referent? Seemingly not. There is nothing in

mind as this writing occurs. Everything has changed by the end of

a sentence. Where do the words come from? The same place as breathing

perhaps.

 

An hour from now a response to this same post would be

unbelievably different.

 

Bill

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33

wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > an ego mind is dreaming about oneness of his/her imaginary entity with

infinite emptyness...

> > > >

> > > > an ego mind is Whole of such dream

> > > >

> > > > ...

> > > >

> > > > nothing else

> > >

> > > if that!

> > >

> > > seems to me that ego mind is one of

> > > the great myths of non-dual philosophy.

> > >

> > > as far as I know, no one has ever

> > > encountered one in the wild.

> > >

> > > how can any such concept arise if

> > > " this moment " is unconstrained,

> > > uncontained?

> > >

> > > and " this moment " (not an entity of

> > > any sort) is certainly unconstrained,

> > > uncontained.

> > >

> > > and I add that only what *is* this moment

> > > is in any sense actual.

> > >

> > > Therefore 'ego' (along with any derivatives

> > > such as 'ego mind') is not actual.

> > >

> > > Indeed, does that mean we can dispense of talking

> > > about it altogether?

> > >

> > >

> > > I.e. what do we need to " get clear about " when

> > > the luminousness of this moment is so inescapable?

> > >

> > >

> > > And isn't it ironic that there are people trying

> > > to find their way into The Now when it is

> > > absolutely impossible to escape in the first place?

> > >

> > > Off hand I'd say that tops all ironies that I can

> > > think of.

> > >

> > >

> > > Bill

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > ....look like you have nice dreams....about many interesting concepts....

> >

> > such dreams are building up this imaginary " Bill " ...

> >

> > or/and such dreams try to remain being attachted to this imaginary " Bill " ...

> >

> > so this " Bill " is not?...

> >

> > would say....yes, " Bill " Is....and why not...?

> >

> > ...no problem with an ego " Bill " .....or an ego " Marc " ....or " bbb " ....etc...

> >

> > ....

> >

> > If one is aware of " the dream " ....or...the illusion....or the

imaginations....or....the unreal....or....or...

> >

> > then it is easier to enjoy existence

> >

> > ....

> >

> > like someone who know that there are no crocodiles & sharks in the swimming

pool....

> >

> > and therefore enjoy to jump inside....

> >

> > ....

> >

> > wish a nice further swimming....

> >

> > wherever....

> >

> >

> >

> > Marc

> >

>

>

> Ps:

>

> http://lancemannion.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/hockney_02.jpg

>

a good chuckle, that...

 

your notion of the crocodiles and sharks an interesting one.

Perhaps I will use that with the (mental health) clients

at work.

 

Bill

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > an ego mind is dreaming about oneness of his/her imaginary entity with

infinite emptyness...

> > > >

> > > > an ego mind is Whole of such dream

> > > >

> > > > ...

> > > >

> > > > nothing else

> > >

> > > if that!

> > >

> > > seems to me that ego mind is one of

> > > the great myths of non-dual philosophy.

> > >

> > > as far as I know, no one has ever

> > > encountered one in the wild.

> > >

> > > how can any such concept arise if

> > > " this moment " is unconstrained,

> > > uncontained?

> > >

> > > and " this moment " (not an entity of

> > > any sort) is certainly unconstrained,

> > > uncontained.

> > >

> > > and I add that only what *is* this moment

> > > is in any sense actual.

> > >

> > > Therefore 'ego' (along with any derivatives

> > > such as 'ego mind') is not actual.

> > >

> > > Indeed, does that mean we can dispense of talking

> > > about it altogether?

> > >

> > >

> > > I.e. what do we need to " get clear about " when

> > > the luminousness of this moment is so inescapable?

> > >

> > >

> > > And isn't it ironic that there are people trying

> > > to find their way into The Now when it is

> > > absolutely impossible to escape in the first place?

> > >

> > > Off hand I'd say that tops all ironies that I can

> > > think of.

> > >

> > >

> > > Bill

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > ....look like you have nice dreams....about many interesting concepts....

> >

> > such dreams are building up this imaginary " Bill " ...

> >

> > or/and such dreams try to remain being attachted to this imaginary " Bill " ...

> >

> > so this " Bill " is not?...

> >

> > would say....yes, " Bill " Is....and why not...?

> >

> > ...no problem with an ego " Bill " .....or an ego " Marc " ....or " bbb " ....etc...

> >

> > ....

> >

> > If one is aware of " the dream " ....or...the illusion....or the

imaginations....or....the unreal....or....or...

> >

> > then it is easier to enjoy existence

> >

> > ....

> >

> > like someone who know that there are no crocodiles & sharks in the swimming

pool....

> >

> > and therefore enjoy to jump inside....

> >

> > ....

> >

> > wish a nice further swimming....

> >

> > wherever....

> >

> >

> >

> > Marc

> >

>

> I don't know of any sense of " Bill " . I can imagine to a degree

> having a " sense " of someone I know well, but even that is very

> fluid. And seems the more I know someone the more fluid that

> becomes, so that re close friends it is more mystery than anything

> particular. If I contemplate one friend, and then subsequently

> another, it is true that the " vibes " felt, the colors, hues, shades,

> the energy patterns, the spatial scope and even kind of space that

> comes up is quite distinct in each case. But it is so fluid it that

> an hour later contemplating the same friend will be markedly

> different. It is like contemplating a rich symphony after listening

> to it for the first time. There may be nothing specific in such

> contemplation. And an hour later what comes to mind re the same

> symphony may be rather different.

>

> But for " myself " nothing comes to mind at all. " Myself " is not an

> object in this phenomenal space. In fact nothing is really an object

> in this phenomenal space. There is nothing specific and nothing

> stands still or persists.

>

> I am writing this message to Marc, so is " Marc " then an object in

> consciousness, a fixed referent? Seemingly not. There is nothing in

> mind as this writing occurs. Everything has changed by the end of

> a sentence. Where do the words come from? The same place as breathing

> perhaps.

>

> An hour from now a response to this same post would be

> unbelievably different.

>

> Bill

>

 

ok, true...

 

like one don't know where the dreams during night will lead....means, what will

be the dreamed story about....the content of the story....etc...

 

It remain dream.

 

.....

 

Concerning life....

 

It remain simple life.....included the flow of words, actions,

reactions....etc....

 

.....

 

Look like Bill has a more " easier " life then....as i mentionned before....

 

Good....

 

.....

 

Marc

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

<dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > an ego mind is dreaming about oneness of his/her imaginary entity with

infinite emptyness...

> > > > >

> > > > > an ego mind is Whole of such dream

> > > > >

> > > > > ...

> > > > >

> > > > > nothing else

> > > >

> > > > if that!

> > > >

> > > > seems to me that ego mind is one of

> > > > the great myths of non-dual philosophy.

> > > >

> > > > as far as I know, no one has ever

> > > > encountered one in the wild.

> > > >

> > > > how can any such concept arise if

> > > > " this moment " is unconstrained,

> > > > uncontained?

> > > >

> > > > and " this moment " (not an entity of

> > > > any sort) is certainly unconstrained,

> > > > uncontained.

> > > >

> > > > and I add that only what *is* this moment

> > > > is in any sense actual.

> > > >

> > > > Therefore 'ego' (along with any derivatives

> > > > such as 'ego mind') is not actual.

> > > >

> > > > Indeed, does that mean we can dispense of talking

> > > > about it altogether?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I.e. what do we need to " get clear about " when

> > > > the luminousness of this moment is so inescapable?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > And isn't it ironic that there are people trying

> > > > to find their way into The Now when it is

> > > > absolutely impossible to escape in the first place?

> > > >

> > > > Off hand I'd say that tops all ironies that I can

> > > > think of.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Bill

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > ....look like you have nice dreams....about many interesting concepts....

> > >

> > > such dreams are building up this imaginary " Bill " ...

> > >

> > > or/and such dreams try to remain being attachted to this imaginary

" Bill " ...

> > >

> > > so this " Bill " is not?...

> > >

> > > would say....yes, " Bill " Is....and why not...?

> > >

> > > ...no problem with an ego " Bill " .....or an ego " Marc " ....or

" bbb " ....etc...

> > >

> > > ....

> > >

> > > If one is aware of " the dream " ....or...the illusion....or the

imaginations....or....the unreal....or....or...

> > >

> > > then it is easier to enjoy existence

> > >

> > > ....

> > >

> > > like someone who know that there are no crocodiles & sharks in the swimming

pool....

> > >

> > > and therefore enjoy to jump inside....

> > >

> > > ....

> > >

> > > wish a nice further swimming....

> > >

> > > wherever....

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Marc

> > >

> >

> >

> > Ps:

> >

> > http://lancemannion.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/hockney_02.jpg

> >

> a good chuckle, that...

>

> your notion of the crocodiles and sharks an interesting one.

> Perhaps I will use that with the (mental health) clients

> at work.

>

> Bill

>

 

 

don't know if they would understand what you are talking about....

 

.....

 

if one can't make the difference between the ocean and a swimming pool.....

 

it's worthless to know that there are no crocodiles in the swimming pool....

 

 

Marc

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33

wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

<dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > an ego mind is dreaming about oneness of his/her imaginary entity

with infinite emptyness...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > an ego mind is Whole of such dream

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > nothing else

> > > > >

> > > > > if that!

> > > > >

> > > > > seems to me that ego mind is one of

> > > > > the great myths of non-dual philosophy.

> > > > >

> > > > > as far as I know, no one has ever

> > > > > encountered one in the wild.

> > > > >

> > > > > how can any such concept arise if

> > > > > " this moment " is unconstrained,

> > > > > uncontained?

> > > > >

> > > > > and " this moment " (not an entity of

> > > > > any sort) is certainly unconstrained,

> > > > > uncontained.

> > > > >

> > > > > and I add that only what *is* this moment

> > > > > is in any sense actual.

> > > > >

> > > > > Therefore 'ego' (along with any derivatives

> > > > > such as 'ego mind') is not actual.

> > > > >

> > > > > Indeed, does that mean we can dispense of talking

> > > > > about it altogether?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I.e. what do we need to " get clear about " when

> > > > > the luminousness of this moment is so inescapable?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > And isn't it ironic that there are people trying

> > > > > to find their way into The Now when it is

> > > > > absolutely impossible to escape in the first place?

> > > > >

> > > > > Off hand I'd say that tops all ironies that I can

> > > > > think of.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Bill

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > ....look like you have nice dreams....about many interesting

concepts....

> > > >

> > > > such dreams are building up this imaginary " Bill " ...

> > > >

> > > > or/and such dreams try to remain being attachted to this imaginary

" Bill " ...

> > > >

> > > > so this " Bill " is not?...

> > > >

> > > > would say....yes, " Bill " Is....and why not...?

> > > >

> > > > ...no problem with an ego " Bill " .....or an ego " Marc " ....or

" bbb " ....etc...

> > > >

> > > > ....

> > > >

> > > > If one is aware of " the dream " ....or...the illusion....or the

imaginations....or....the unreal....or....or...

> > > >

> > > > then it is easier to enjoy existence

> > > >

> > > > ....

> > > >

> > > > like someone who know that there are no crocodiles & sharks in the

swimming pool....

> > > >

> > > > and therefore enjoy to jump inside....

> > > >

> > > > ....

> > > >

> > > > wish a nice further swimming....

> > > >

> > > > wherever....

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Marc

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Ps:

> > >

> > > http://lancemannion.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/hockney_02.jpg

> > >

> > a good chuckle, that...

> >

> > your notion of the crocodiles and sharks an interesting one.

> > Perhaps I will use that with the (mental health) clients

> > at work.

> >

> > Bill

> >

>

>

> don't know if they would understand what you are talking about....

>

> ....

>

> if one can't make the difference between the ocean and a swimming pool.....

>

> it's worthless to know that there are no crocodiles in the swimming pool....

>

>

> Marc

>

 

 

Ps: each moment of life during which there isn't this " easy flow " going

on......there are " crocodiles " .....means, there is ego-mind.....having to fight

somewhere ....at the front of the battlefield.......

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33

wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

<dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > an ego mind is dreaming about oneness of his/her imaginary entity

with infinite emptyness...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > an ego mind is Whole of such dream

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > nothing else

> > > > >

> > > > > if that!

> > > > >

> > > > > seems to me that ego mind is one of

> > > > > the great myths of non-dual philosophy.

> > > > >

> > > > > as far as I know, no one has ever

> > > > > encountered one in the wild.

> > > > >

> > > > > how can any such concept arise if

> > > > > " this moment " is unconstrained,

> > > > > uncontained?

> > > > >

> > > > > and " this moment " (not an entity of

> > > > > any sort) is certainly unconstrained,

> > > > > uncontained.

> > > > >

> > > > > and I add that only what *is* this moment

> > > > > is in any sense actual.

> > > > >

> > > > > Therefore 'ego' (along with any derivatives

> > > > > such as 'ego mind') is not actual.

> > > > >

> > > > > Indeed, does that mean we can dispense of talking

> > > > > about it altogether?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I.e. what do we need to " get clear about " when

> > > > > the luminousness of this moment is so inescapable?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > And isn't it ironic that there are people trying

> > > > > to find their way into The Now when it is

> > > > > absolutely impossible to escape in the first place?

> > > > >

> > > > > Off hand I'd say that tops all ironies that I can

> > > > > think of.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Bill

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > ....look like you have nice dreams....about many interesting

concepts....

> > > >

> > > > such dreams are building up this imaginary " Bill " ...

> > > >

> > > > or/and such dreams try to remain being attachted to this imaginary

" Bill " ...

> > > >

> > > > so this " Bill " is not?...

> > > >

> > > > would say....yes, " Bill " Is....and why not...?

> > > >

> > > > ...no problem with an ego " Bill " .....or an ego " Marc " ....or

" bbb " ....etc...

> > > >

> > > > ....

> > > >

> > > > If one is aware of " the dream " ....or...the illusion....or the

imaginations....or....the unreal....or....or...

> > > >

> > > > then it is easier to enjoy existence

> > > >

> > > > ....

> > > >

> > > > like someone who know that there are no crocodiles & sharks in the

swimming pool....

> > > >

> > > > and therefore enjoy to jump inside....

> > > >

> > > > ....

> > > >

> > > > wish a nice further swimming....

> > > >

> > > > wherever....

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Marc

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Ps:

> > >

> > > http://lancemannion.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/hockney_02.jpg

> > >

> > a good chuckle, that...

> >

> > your notion of the crocodiles and sharks an interesting one.

> > Perhaps I will use that with the (mental health) clients

> > at work.

> >

> > Bill

> >

>

>

> don't know if they would understand what you are talking about....

>

> ....

>

> if one can't make the difference between the ocean and a swimming pool.....

>

> it's worthless to know that there are no crocodiles in the swimming pool....

>

>

> Marc

 

I would have to find a fresh way to convey...

but might be seed idea that could lead to

something...

 

because some of them don't feel " safe " in

a very general way...

 

and your image seems to pertain to that issue.

 

Bill

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33

wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

<dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

<dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > an ego mind is dreaming about oneness of his/her imaginary entity

with infinite emptyness...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > an ego mind is Whole of such dream

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > nothing else

> > > > > >

> > > > > > if that!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > seems to me that ego mind is one of

> > > > > > the great myths of non-dual philosophy.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > as far as I know, no one has ever

> > > > > > encountered one in the wild.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > how can any such concept arise if

> > > > > > " this moment " is unconstrained,

> > > > > > uncontained?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > and " this moment " (not an entity of

> > > > > > any sort) is certainly unconstrained,

> > > > > > uncontained.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > and I add that only what *is* this moment

> > > > > > is in any sense actual.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Therefore 'ego' (along with any derivatives

> > > > > > such as 'ego mind') is not actual.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Indeed, does that mean we can dispense of talking

> > > > > > about it altogether?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I.e. what do we need to " get clear about " when

> > > > > > the luminousness of this moment is so inescapable?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And isn't it ironic that there are people trying

> > > > > > to find their way into The Now when it is

> > > > > > absolutely impossible to escape in the first place?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Off hand I'd say that tops all ironies that I can

> > > > > > think of.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Bill

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > ....look like you have nice dreams....about many interesting

concepts....

> > > > >

> > > > > such dreams are building up this imaginary " Bill " ...

> > > > >

> > > > > or/and such dreams try to remain being attachted to this imaginary

" Bill " ...

> > > > >

> > > > > so this " Bill " is not?...

> > > > >

> > > > > would say....yes, " Bill " Is....and why not...?

> > > > >

> > > > > ...no problem with an ego " Bill " .....or an ego " Marc " ....or

" bbb " ....etc...

> > > > >

> > > > > ....

> > > > >

> > > > > If one is aware of " the dream " ....or...the illusion....or the

imaginations....or....the unreal....or....or...

> > > > >

> > > > > then it is easier to enjoy existence

> > > > >

> > > > > ....

> > > > >

> > > > > like someone who know that there are no crocodiles & sharks in the

swimming pool....

> > > > >

> > > > > and therefore enjoy to jump inside....

> > > > >

> > > > > ....

> > > > >

> > > > > wish a nice further swimming....

> > > > >

> > > > > wherever....

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Marc

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Ps:

> > > >

> > > > http://lancemannion.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/hockney_02.jpg

> > > >

> > > a good chuckle, that...

> > >

> > > your notion of the crocodiles and sharks an interesting one.

> > > Perhaps I will use that with the (mental health) clients

> > > at work.

> > >

> > > Bill

> > >

> >

> >

> > don't know if they would understand what you are talking about....

> >

> > ....

> >

> > if one can't make the difference between the ocean and a swimming pool.....

> >

> > it's worthless to know that there are no crocodiles in the swimming pool....

> >

> >

> > Marc

> >

>

>

> Ps: each moment of life during which there isn't this " easy flow " going

on......there are " crocodiles " .....means, there is ego-mind.....having to fight

somewhere ....at the front of the battlefield.......

>

 

sometimes " easy flow " can be arduous, challenging to be

simply present with...

 

if they are experiencing very uncomfortable feelings

I encourage them to simply be with it, to face it

directly. And that is *all* they have to do. But once

they start to run from it, then it becomes a crocodile.

 

Bill

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> >

>

> sometimes " easy flow " can be arduous, challenging to be

> simply present with...

>

> if they are experiencing very uncomfortable feelings

> I encourage them to simply be with it, to face it

> directly. And that is *all* they have to do. But once

> they start to run from it, then it becomes a crocodile.

>

> Bill

>

 

 

Like the rope and the snake ?

 

Werner

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

<dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

<dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > an ego mind is dreaming about oneness of his/her imaginary entity

with infinite emptyness...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > an ego mind is Whole of such dream

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > nothing else

> > > > > >

> > > > > > if that!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > seems to me that ego mind is one of

> > > > > > the great myths of non-dual philosophy.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > as far as I know, no one has ever

> > > > > > encountered one in the wild.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > how can any such concept arise if

> > > > > > " this moment " is unconstrained,

> > > > > > uncontained?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > and " this moment " (not an entity of

> > > > > > any sort) is certainly unconstrained,

> > > > > > uncontained.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > and I add that only what *is* this moment

> > > > > > is in any sense actual.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Therefore 'ego' (along with any derivatives

> > > > > > such as 'ego mind') is not actual.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Indeed, does that mean we can dispense of talking

> > > > > > about it altogether?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I.e. what do we need to " get clear about " when

> > > > > > the luminousness of this moment is so inescapable?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And isn't it ironic that there are people trying

> > > > > > to find their way into The Now when it is

> > > > > > absolutely impossible to escape in the first place?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Off hand I'd say that tops all ironies that I can

> > > > > > think of.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Bill

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > ....look like you have nice dreams....about many interesting

concepts....

> > > > >

> > > > > such dreams are building up this imaginary " Bill " ...

> > > > >

> > > > > or/and such dreams try to remain being attachted to this imaginary

" Bill " ...

> > > > >

> > > > > so this " Bill " is not?...

> > > > >

> > > > > would say....yes, " Bill " Is....and why not...?

> > > > >

> > > > > ...no problem with an ego " Bill " .....or an ego " Marc " ....or

" bbb " ....etc...

> > > > >

> > > > > ....

> > > > >

> > > > > If one is aware of " the dream " ....or...the illusion....or the

imaginations....or....the unreal....or....or...

> > > > >

> > > > > then it is easier to enjoy existence

> > > > >

> > > > > ....

> > > > >

> > > > > like someone who know that there are no crocodiles & sharks in the

swimming pool....

> > > > >

> > > > > and therefore enjoy to jump inside....

> > > > >

> > > > > ....

> > > > >

> > > > > wish a nice further swimming....

> > > > >

> > > > > wherever....

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Marc

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Ps:

> > > >

> > > > http://lancemannion.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/hockney_02.jpg

> > > >

> > > a good chuckle, that...

> > >

> > > your notion of the crocodiles and sharks an interesting one.

> > > Perhaps I will use that with the (mental health) clients

> > > at work.

> > >

> > > Bill

> > >

> >

> >

> > don't know if they would understand what you are talking about....

> >

> > ....

> >

> > if one can't make the difference between the ocean and a swimming pool.....

> >

> > it's worthless to know that there are no crocodiles in the swimming pool....

> >

> >

> > Marc

>

> I would have to find a fresh way to convey...

> but might be seed idea that could lead to

> something...

>

> because some of them don't feel " safe " in

> a very general way...

>

> and your image seems to pertain to that issue.

>

> Bill

>

 

 

look like they are realy persistent ego's....

 

they are your " crocodile " , Bill...

 

take it easy, Bill

 

the world is made of appearent " crocodiles "

 

that's it

 

....

 

 

Marc

[Guest guest]

>

> I don't know of any sense of " Bill " . I can imagine to a degree

> having a " sense " of someone I know well, but even that is very

> fluid. And seems the more I know someone the more fluid that

> becomes, so that re close friends it is more mystery than anything

> particular. If I contemplate one friend, and then subsequently

> another, it is true that the " vibes " felt, the colors, hues, shades,

> the energy patterns, the spatial scope and even kind of space that

> comes up is quite distinct in each case. But it is so fluid it that

> an hour later contemplating the same friend will be markedly

> different. It is like contemplating a rich symphony after listening

> to it for the first time. There may be nothing specific in such

> contemplation. And an hour later what comes to mind re the same

> symphony may be rather different.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are some very insightful books on the nature of self.

 

" The Mind's I " by Dennett and " I am a strange loop " by Douglas Hofstadter are

outstanding in rooting out the odd little creature.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

> But for " myself " nothing comes to mind at all. " Myself " is not an

> object in this phenomenal space. In fact nothing is really an object

> in this phenomenal space. There is nothing specific and nothing

> stands still or persists.

 

 

 

 

Here it is seen as a phantom self.....it materializes and springs into action

when circumstances arise that call for its presence and then looses its opacity

as the Flowing once again takes over.

 

It's kinda like being and actor is on stage for a while and after he says his

lines.........he disappears.... and awareness becomes the audience.....the

theater....and the night air outside.

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

> I am writing this message to Marc, so is " Marc " then an object in

> consciousness, a fixed referent? Seemingly not. There is nothing in

> mind as this writing occurs. Everything has changed by the end of

> a sentence. Where do the words come from? The same place as breathing

> perhaps.

>

> An hour from now a response to this same post would be

> unbelievably different.

>

> Bill

>

 

 

 

Yes.

 

The Flowing and the Awareness are in constant inter-relational flux.

It is a sublime dance.

It is difficult.......almost painful.....to " go back " and speak of the scenery

seen when the Ever-Fresh is always present.

 

It would be like trying to get a baby to think about a painting when in the

presence of a puppy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

toombaru

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> > >

> >

> > sometimes " easy flow " can be arduous, challenging to be

> > simply present with...

> >

> > if they are experiencing very uncomfortable feelings

> > I encourage them to simply be with it, to face it

> > directly. And that is *all* they have to do. But once

> > they start to run from it, then it becomes a crocodile.

> >

> > Bill

> >

>

>

> Like the rope and the snake ?

>

> Werner

>

 

Good one Werner.

Yes, so it seems!

Fear turns a rope into a snake...

what a Conjurer fear is!

 

Bill

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33

wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

<dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

<dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

<dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > an ego mind is dreaming about oneness of his/her imaginary

entity with infinite emptyness...

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > an ego mind is Whole of such dream

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ...

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > nothing else

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > if that!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > seems to me that ego mind is one of

> > > > > > > the great myths of non-dual philosophy.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > as far as I know, no one has ever

> > > > > > > encountered one in the wild.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > how can any such concept arise if

> > > > > > > " this moment " is unconstrained,

> > > > > > > uncontained?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > and " this moment " (not an entity of

> > > > > > > any sort) is certainly unconstrained,

> > > > > > > uncontained.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > and I add that only what *is* this moment

> > > > > > > is in any sense actual.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Therefore 'ego' (along with any derivatives

> > > > > > > such as 'ego mind') is not actual.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Indeed, does that mean we can dispense of talking

> > > > > > > about it altogether?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I.e. what do we need to " get clear about " when

> > > > > > > the luminousness of this moment is so inescapable?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > And isn't it ironic that there are people trying

> > > > > > > to find their way into The Now when it is

> > > > > > > absolutely impossible to escape in the first place?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Off hand I'd say that tops all ironies that I can

> > > > > > > think of.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Bill

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > ....look like you have nice dreams....about many interesting

concepts....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > such dreams are building up this imaginary " Bill " ...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > or/and such dreams try to remain being attachted to this imaginary

" Bill " ...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > so this " Bill " is not?...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > would say....yes, " Bill " Is....and why not...?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ...no problem with an ego " Bill " .....or an ego " Marc " ....or

" bbb " ....etc...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If one is aware of " the dream " ....or...the illusion....or the

imaginations....or....the unreal....or....or...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > then it is easier to enjoy existence

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > like someone who know that there are no crocodiles & sharks in the

swimming pool....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > and therefore enjoy to jump inside....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > wish a nice further swimming....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > wherever....

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Marc

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Ps:

> > > > >

> > > > > http://lancemannion.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/hockney_02.jpg

> > > > >

> > > > a good chuckle, that...

> > > >

> > > > your notion of the crocodiles and sharks an interesting one.

> > > > Perhaps I will use that with the (mental health) clients

> > > > at work.

> > > >

> > > > Bill

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > don't know if they would understand what you are talking about....

> > >

> > > ....

> > >

> > > if one can't make the difference between the ocean and a swimming

pool.....

> > >

> > > it's worthless to know that there are no crocodiles in the swimming

pool....

> > >

> > >

> > > Marc

> >

> > I would have to find a fresh way to convey...

> > but might be seed idea that could lead to

> > something...

> >

> > because some of them don't feel " safe " in

> > a very general way...

> >

> > and your image seems to pertain to that issue.

> >

> > Bill

> >

>

>

> look like they are realy persistent ego's....

>

> they are your " crocodile " , Bill...

>

> take it easy, Bill

>

> the world is made of appearent " crocodiles "

>

> that's it

>

> ...

>

>

> Marc

 

To me they are not crocodiles, Marc.

I love working with those people.

 

Bill

[Guest guest]

Re: no doer of ego....nobody doing anything for real/--> no nothing for real

 

 

>

> I don't know of any sense of " Bill " . I can imagine to a degree

> having a " sense " of someone I know well, but even that is very

> fluid. And seems the more I know someone the more fluid that

> becomes, so that re close friends it is more mystery than anything

> particular. If I contemplate one friend, and then subsequently

> another, it is true that the " vibes " felt, the colors, hues, shades,

> the energy patterns, the spatial scope and even kind of space that

> comes up is quite distinct in each case. But it is so fluid it that

> an hour later contemplating the same friend will be markedly

> different. It is like contemplating a rich symphony after listening

> to it for the first time. There may be nothing specific in such

> contemplation. And an hour later what comes to mind re the same

> symphony may be rather different.

 

 

There are some very insightful books on the nature of self.

 

" The Mind's I " by Dennett and " I am a strange loop " by Douglas Hofstadter

are

outstanding in rooting out the odd little creature.

 

Isn't that Dennett book co-authored by Hofstadter?

 

I bought the " I am a strange loop " book recently, but returned it.

I was hoping for more math-science-computer stuff. It seemed

dumbed down from his Godel-Esche-Bach book. But I love the

strange loop concept. In software it shows up as recursive code and

recursive definitions. I can find a sense in saying " I am a strange

loop, " and " you are a strange loop, " and further that, " our

conversations are strange loops. " It is a way of admitting that

there is no grasping the essence of things.

 

BTW: I might give his book another try. He did have some interesting

stuff in there. I intend to go back and check more carefully

whether he picks up tempo in the second half of the book.

When I returned it I got a book called Super Fractals. That's all

strange loop stuff also. And at the other end of the scale as far

as tempo goes. I'll probably have to review some math to get

through it.

 

But as for the notion of self, it is a topic of very minor interest

to me. Why would I want to learn about something that isn't?

However, do find certain investigations of cognitive science,

neuro-science, and consciousness studies quite interesting, as

for example " The Feeling of What Happens " by Antonio DeMassio,

or " Being No One " by Thomas Metzinger. The Metzinger book is

very interesting, and you can read the precis of it here:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t & source=web & ct=res & cd=2 & url=http%3A%2F%2Fpsyche.cs\

..monash.edu.au%2Fsymposia%2Fmetzinger%2Fprecis.pdf & ei=iwnRSd2iD6i6tAPc_c2iAw & usg\

=AFQjCNESNzO9XFiJHeaYlkgIiVgeguwCfQ & sig2=agA-hb8nnCBwnFCcIsPlvQ

 

If you have trouble with that link let me know and I can email

you the PDF.

 

>

> But for " myself " nothing comes to mind at all. " Myself " is not an

> object in this phenomenal space. In fact nothing is really an object

> in this phenomenal space. There is nothing specific and nothing

> stands still or persists.

 

Here it is seen as a phantom self.....it materializes and springs into

action

when circumstances arise that call for its presence and then looses its

opacity

as the Flowing once again takes over.

 

What is the " it " that you say is seen here?

 

It's kinda like being and actor is on stage for a while and after he says

his

lines.........he disappears.... and awareness becomes the audience.....the

theater....and the night air outside.

 

I think I understand what you mean, and expect that can happen.

But I suggest that it also can happen that *nothing* arises at

all, that no opacity fades because it doesn't form in the first

place, and that even " flowing " , when it occurs, is rather a

" lower energy shell " ... because mostly it is whirling vibrance

and light everywhere, which is to say that a " flow " is a

relatively constrained form of energy.

 

In terms of the three states of matter, flow is less constrained

than a solid state, but more constrained that a gaseous state.

 

 

>

> I am writing this message to Marc, so is " Marc " then an object in

> consciousness, a fixed referent? Seemingly not. There is nothing in

> mind as this writing occurs. Everything has changed by the end of

> a sentence. Where do the words come from? The same place as breathing

> perhaps.

>

> An hour from now a response to this same post would be

> unbelievably different.

>

> Bill

>

 

 

Yes.

 

The Flowing and the Awareness are in constant inter-relational flux.

It is a sublime dance.

It is difficult.......almost painful.....to " go back " and speak of the

scenery

seen when the Ever-Fresh is always present.

 

But why would one ever want to " go back. " Isn't that kind like trying

to pull a crap back up into your butt?

 

It would be like trying to get a baby to think about a painting when in the

presence of a puppy.

 

Yes... exactly!

I chuckled when I read that, as I have a nwe grandson that is about 9 mos. old

now.

 

If you ever feel the need for a guru, go find yourself a 9 mo. old baby.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

 

toombaru

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@>

wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

<dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

<dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@>

wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 "

<dennis_travis33@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > an ego mind is dreaming about oneness of his/her imaginary

entity with infinite emptyness...

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > an ego mind is Whole of such dream

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > ...

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > nothing else

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > if that!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > seems to me that ego mind is one of

> > > > > > > > the great myths of non-dual philosophy.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > as far as I know, no one has ever

> > > > > > > > encountered one in the wild.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > how can any such concept arise if

> > > > > > > > " this moment " is unconstrained,

> > > > > > > > uncontained?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > and " this moment " (not an entity of

> > > > > > > > any sort) is certainly unconstrained,

> > > > > > > > uncontained.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > and I add that only what *is* this moment

> > > > > > > > is in any sense actual.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Therefore 'ego' (along with any derivatives

> > > > > > > > such as 'ego mind') is not actual.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Indeed, does that mean we can dispense of talking

> > > > > > > > about it altogether?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I.e. what do we need to " get clear about " when

> > > > > > > > the luminousness of this moment is so inescapable?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > And isn't it ironic that there are people trying

> > > > > > > > to find their way into The Now when it is

> > > > > > > > absolutely impossible to escape in the first place?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Off hand I'd say that tops all ironies that I can

> > > > > > > > think of.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Bill

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ....look like you have nice dreams....about many interesting

concepts....

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > such dreams are building up this imaginary " Bill " ...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > or/and such dreams try to remain being attachted to this imaginary

" Bill " ...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > so this " Bill " is not?...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > would say....yes, " Bill " Is....and why not...?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ...no problem with an ego " Bill " .....or an ego " Marc " ....or

" bbb " ....etc...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ....

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If one is aware of " the dream " ....or...the illusion....or the

imaginations....or....the unreal....or....or...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > then it is easier to enjoy existence

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ....

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > like someone who know that there are no crocodiles & sharks in the

swimming pool....

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > and therefore enjoy to jump inside....

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ....

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > wish a nice further swimming....

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > wherever....

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Marc

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ps:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > http://lancemannion.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/hockney_02.jpg

> > > > > >

> > > > > a good chuckle, that...

> > > > >

> > > > > your notion of the crocodiles and sharks an interesting one.

> > > > > Perhaps I will use that with the (mental health) clients

> > > > > at work.

> > > > >

> > > > > Bill

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > don't know if they would understand what you are talking about....

> > > >

> > > > ....

> > > >

> > > > if one can't make the difference between the ocean and a swimming

pool.....

> > > >

> > > > it's worthless to know that there are no crocodiles in the swimming

pool....

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Marc

> > >

> > > I would have to find a fresh way to convey...

> > > but might be seed idea that could lead to

> > > something...

> > >

> > > because some of them don't feel " safe " in

> > > a very general way...

> > >

> > > and your image seems to pertain to that issue.

> > >

> > > Bill

> > >

> >

> >

> > look like they are realy persistent ego's....

> >

> > they are your " crocodile " , Bill...

> >

> > take it easy, Bill

> >

> > the world is made of appearent " crocodiles "

> >

> > that's it

> >

> > ...

> >

> >

> > Marc

>

> To me they are not crocodiles, Marc.

> I love working with those people.

>

> Bill

>

 

 

love, that's all you need to work with those people, yes

 

there is nothing else realy you can do....

 

you have no choice, anyway....

 

 

Marc

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote:

>

> Re: no doer of ego....nobody doing anything for real/--> no nothing for

real

>

>

> >

> > I don't know of any sense of " Bill " . I can imagine to a degree

> > having a " sense " of someone I know well, but even that is very

> > fluid. And seems the more I know someone the more fluid that

> > becomes, so that re close friends it is more mystery than anything

> > particular. If I contemplate one friend, and then subsequently

> > another, it is true that the " vibes " felt, the colors, hues, shades,

> > the energy patterns, the spatial scope and even kind of space that

> > comes up is quite distinct in each case. But it is so fluid it that

> > an hour later contemplating the same friend will be markedly

> > different. It is like contemplating a rich symphony after listening

> > to it for the first time. There may be nothing specific in such

> > contemplation. And an hour later what comes to mind re the same

> > symphony may be rather different.

>

>

> There are some very insightful books on the nature of self.

>

> " The Mind's I " by Dennett and " I am a strange loop " by Douglas Hofstadter

are

> outstanding in rooting out the odd little creature.

>

> Isn't that Dennett book co-authored by Hofstadter?

>

> I bought the " I am a strange loop " book recently, but returned it.

> I was hoping for more math-science-computer stuff. It seemed

> dumbed down from his Godel-Esche-Bach book. But I love the

> strange loop concept. In software it shows up as recursive code and

> recursive definitions. I can find a sense in saying " I am a strange

> loop, " and " you are a strange loop, " and further that, " our

> conversations are strange loops. " It is a way of admitting that

> there is no grasping the essence of things.

>

> BTW: I might give his book another try. He did have some interesting

> stuff in there. I intend to go back and check more carefully

> whether he picks up tempo in the second half of the book.

> When I returned it I got a book called Super Fractals. That's all

> strange loop stuff also. And at the other end of the scale as far

> as tempo goes. I'll probably have to review some math to get

> through it.

>

> But as for the notion of self, it is a topic of very minor interest

> to me. Why would I want to learn about something that isn't?

> However, do find certain investigations of cognitive science,

> neuro-science, and consciousness studies quite interesting, as

> for example " The Feeling of What Happens " by Antonio DeMassio,

> or " Being No One " by Thomas Metzinger. The Metzinger book is

> very interesting, and you can read the precis of it here:

>

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t & source=web & ct=res & cd=2 & url=http%3A%2F%2Fpsyche.cs\

..monash.edu.au%2Fsymposia%2Fmetzinger%2Fprecis.pdf & ei=iwnRSd2iD6i6tAPc_c2iAw & usg\

=AFQjCNESNzO9XFiJHeaYlkgIiVgeguwCfQ & sig2=agA-hb8nnCBwnFCcIsPlvQ

>

> If you have trouble with that link let me know and I can email

> you the PDF.

 

 

 

 

I came through.

It looks like a fun read.

I'll get back to ya.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

> >

> > But for " myself " nothing comes to mind at all. " Myself " is not an

> > object in this phenomenal space. In fact nothing is really an object

> > in this phenomenal space. There is nothing specific and nothing

> > stands still or persists.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes.

The night in Las Vegas that I mentioned I had been thinking about the fact that

no'thing' actually existed as a separate, distinct entity,

 

That in fact there was no such thing as a " mountain " a " river " or the state of

" Texas " .

I had mistakenly taken 100 mg of my wife's topamax instead of my 40 mg of

Lipator and woke up in an extremely confused and anxious state of mind.

 

I knew that " things " did not exist but the question arose concerning the holder

of things......namely " me " .

 

If things did not exist.....neither did I.

 

My mind recoiled and retreated back to the familiar.

 

Like a balky horse, it refused to go any further.

 

Something interjected the thought that I has sought just such a confrontation

with Reality my whole life and that perhaps I should just go along with the

event and see what happened.

 

It might not come again.

 

I allowed the idea concerning the essential emptiness of the holder of things to

percolate down through the synapses and after a while it gained power and the

confusion, fear and anxiety increased until it was unbearable.

 

I thought that death was entirely possible but didn't have the will or ability

to stop the momentum of what was happening.

 

The entire structure of the known-familiar world seemed to be breaking apart.

 

Had I been able.....I would have cried out for help......but I was immobilized.

 

After the mind-storm.....Awareness.....opened onto the Flowing......a vast

pristine-edgelessness.........indescribably grand beyond the limits of the

conceptual context.

 

It's still there.......underneath the conceptual overlay.

 

 

We're off the see 'Monsters and Aliens " with the grandbabies.

 

What could be grander than that!!!!!

 

 

love t.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Will get to the second half of your post after we return.

 

love

 

 

 

toombaru

 

 

 

 

Boy.......this is fun.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

> Here it is seen as a phantom self.....it materializes and springs into

action

> when circumstances arise that call for its presence and then looses its

opacity

> as the Flowing once again takes over.

>

> What is the " it " that you say is seen here?

>

> It's kinda like being and actor is on stage for a while and after he says

his

> lines.........he disappears.... and awareness becomes the audience.....the

> theater....and the night air outside.

>

> I think I understand what you mean, and expect that can happen.

> But I suggest that it also can happen that *nothing* arises at

> all, that no opacity fades because it doesn't form in the first

> place, and that even " flowing " , when it occurs, is rather a

> " lower energy shell " ... because mostly it is whirling vibrance

> and light everywhere, which is to say that a " flow " is a

> relatively constrained form of energy.

>

> In terms of the three states of matter, flow is less constrained

> than a solid state, but more constrained that a gaseous state.

>

>

> >

> > I am writing this message to Marc, so is " Marc " then an object in

> > consciousness, a fixed referent? Seemingly not. There is nothing in

> > mind as this writing occurs. Everything has changed by the end of

> > a sentence. Where do the words come from? The same place as breathing

> > perhaps.

> >

> > An hour from now a response to this same post would be

> > unbelievably different.

> >

> > Bill

> >

>

>

> Yes.

>

> The Flowing and the Awareness are in constant inter-relational flux.

> It is a sublime dance.

> It is difficult.......almost painful.....to " go back " and speak of the

scenery

> seen when the Ever-Fresh is always present.

>

> But why would one ever want to " go back. " Isn't that kind like trying

> to pull a crap back up into your butt?

>

> It would be like trying to get a baby to think about a painting when in

the

> presence of a puppy.

>

> Yes... exactly!

> I chuckled when I read that, as I have a nwe grandson that is about 9 mos. old

now.

>

> If you ever feel the need for a guru, go find yourself a 9 mo. old baby.

>

> Bill

>

>

>

>

>

> toombaru

>

[Guest guest]

> Yes.

> The night in Las Vegas that I mentioned I had been thinking about the fact

that no'thing' actually existed as a separate, distinct entity,

>

> That in fact there was no such thing as a " mountain " a " river " or the state of

" Texas " .

> I had mistakenly taken 100 mg of my wife's topamax instead of my 40 mg of

Lipator and woke up in an extremely confused and anxious state of mind.

>

> I knew that " things " did not exist but the question arose concerning the

holder of things......namely " me " .

>

> If things did not exist.....neither did I.

>

> My mind recoiled and retreated back to the familiar.

>

> Like a balky horse, it refused to go any further.

>

> Something interjected the thought that I has sought just such a confrontation

with Reality my whole life and that perhaps I should just go along with the

event and see what happened.

>

> It might not come again.

>

> I allowed the idea concerning the essential emptiness of the holder of things

to percolate down through the synapses and after a while it gained power and the

confusion, fear and anxiety increased until it was unbearable.

>

> I thought that death was entirely possible but didn't have the will or ability

to stop the momentum of what was happening.

>

> The entire structure of the known-familiar world seemed to be breaking apart.

>

> Had I been able.....I would have cried out for help......but I was

immobilized.

>

> After the mind-storm.....Awareness.....opened onto the Flowing......a vast

pristine-edgelessness.........indescribably grand beyond the limits of the

conceptual context.

>

> It's still there.......underneath the conceptual overlay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

acid did that for me...or not me.

 

..b b.b.

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote:

> >

> > Re: no doer of ego....nobody doing anything for real/--> no nothing for

real

> >

> >

> > >

> > > I don't know of any sense of " Bill " . I can imagine to a degree

> > > having a " sense " of someone I know well, but even that is very

> > > fluid. And seems the more I know someone the more fluid that

> > > becomes, so that re close friends it is more mystery than anything

> > > particular. If I contemplate one friend, and then subsequently

> > > another, it is true that the " vibes " felt, the colors, hues, shades,

> > > the energy patterns, the spatial scope and even kind of space that

> > > comes up is quite distinct in each case. But it is so fluid it that

> > > an hour later contemplating the same friend will be markedly

> > > different. It is like contemplating a rich symphony after listening

> > > to it for the first time. There may be nothing specific in such

> > > contemplation. And an hour later what comes to mind re the same

> > > symphony may be rather different.

> >

> >

> > There are some very insightful books on the nature of self.

> >

> > " The Mind's I " by Dennett and " I am a strange loop " by Douglas

Hofstadter are

> > outstanding in rooting out the odd little creature.

> >

> > Isn't that Dennett book co-authored by Hofstadter?

> >

> > I bought the " I am a strange loop " book recently, but returned it.

> > I was hoping for more math-science-computer stuff. It seemed

> > dumbed down from his Godel-Esche-Bach book. But I love the

> > strange loop concept. In software it shows up as recursive code and

> > recursive definitions. I can find a sense in saying " I am a strange

> > loop, " and " you are a strange loop, " and further that, " our

> > conversations are strange loops. " It is a way of admitting that

> > there is no grasping the essence of things.

> >

> > BTW: I might give his book another try. He did have some interesting

> > stuff in there. I intend to go back and check more carefully

> > whether he picks up tempo in the second half of the book.

> > When I returned it I got a book called Super Fractals. That's all

> > strange loop stuff also. And at the other end of the scale as far

> > as tempo goes. I'll probably have to review some math to get

> > through it.

> >

> > But as for the notion of self, it is a topic of very minor interest

> > to me. Why would I want to learn about something that isn't?

> > However, do find certain investigations of cognitive science,

> > neuro-science, and consciousness studies quite interesting, as

> > for example " The Feeling of What Happens " by Antonio DeMassio,

> > or " Being No One " by Thomas Metzinger. The Metzinger book is

> > very interesting, and you can read the precis of it here:

> >

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t & source=web & ct=res & cd=2 & url=http%3A%2F%2Fpsyche.cs\

..monash.edu.au%2Fsymposia%2Fmetzinger%2Fprecis.pdf & ei=iwnRSd2iD6i6tAPc_c2iAw & usg\

=AFQjCNESNzO9XFiJHeaYlkgIiVgeguwCfQ & sig2=agA-hb8nnCBwnFCcIsPlvQ

> >

> > If you have trouble with that link let me know and I can email

> > you the PDF.

>

>

> I came through.

> It looks like a fun read.

> I'll get back to ya.

>

I'd be thrilled.

You'd be the first one I know

that has also seen it.

 

There's there's one particular

assertion he makes that is quite

surprising, and I can guarantee

that it will be totally new to you.

And his work is very rigorous, deeply

grounded in scientific research.

 

I believe he refers to the work as

as philosophy of neuro-science.

 

>

> >

> > >

> > > But for " myself " nothing comes to mind at all. " Myself " is not an

> > > object in this phenomenal space. In fact nothing is really an object

> > > in this phenomenal space. There is nothing specific and nothing

> > > stands still or persists.

Yes.

> The night in Las Vegas that I mentioned I had been thinking about the fact

that no'thing' actually existed as a separate, distinct entity,

>

> That in fact there was no such thing as a " mountain " a " river " or the state of

" Texas " .

> I had mistakenly taken 100 mg of my wife's topamax instead of my 40 mg of

Lipator and woke up in an extremely confused and anxious state of mind.

>

> I knew that " things " did not exist but the question arose concerning the

holder of things......namely " me " .

>

> If things did not exist.....neither did I.

>

> My mind recoiled and retreated back to the familiar.

 

I am wired differently in that regard. I'm more comfortable

with the blazing unknown than with human kind. I used to

hike up into a remote end of the Catalina mountain range

when I lived in Tucson. I would purposely choose the

most rugged and least vegetated end of the range because

other people would not be there. And there would be wild

sheep at that end of the range, choosing it for the same

reason that I did. In the evening I would look down on the

city and imagine the many warm hearths and gatherings of

people below, and think how I was so much more at home up

on some craggy ridge with blowing wind than I would be

down there in the midst of human kind.

 

>

> Like a balky horse, it refused to go any further.

 

that's a great line....

 

> Something interjected the thought that I has sought just such a confrontation

with Reality my whole life and that perhaps I should just go along with the

event and see what happened.

>

> It might not come again.

>

> I allowed the idea concerning the essential emptiness of the holder of things

to percolate down through the synapses and after a while it gained power and the

confusion, fear and anxiety increased until it was unbearable.

>

> I thought that death was entirely possible but didn't have the will or ability

to stop the momentum of what was happening.

>

> The entire structure of the known-familiar world seemed to be breaking apart.

>

> Had I been able.....I would have cried out for help......but I was

immobilized.

>

> After the mind-storm.....Awareness.....opened onto the Flowing......a vast

pristine-edgelessness.........indescribably grand beyond the limits of the

conceptual context.

>

> It's still there.......underneath the conceptual overlay.

 

And it was there before, don't you think? The difference that

esxperience made was than you became conscious of that

dimension, and -- I expect -- did not find it so alien

afterall... that in a deep sense that is more home to

you than anything else you've ever experienced. You cannot

come to that except by yourself, and it is a given that our

journey in this world is essentially a solitary one, so

that experience introduced you to a new kind of intimacy

with something that is more fundamental for you than your very

existence as a human being.

 

Am I just projecting or does that resonate?

 

>

> We're off the see 'Monsters and Aliens " with the grandbabies.

>

> What could be grander than that!!!!!

>

>

> love t.

>

>

> Will get to the second half of your post after we return.

>

> love

>

> toombaru

>

>

>

>

> Boy.......this is fun.

>

>

I'm delighted you are enjoying it because

I sure am...

 

This is very special because we are

both being blazingly open. A recipe

for magic.

 

Bill

 

>

>

> >

> > Here it is seen as a phantom self.....it materializes and springs into

action

> > when circumstances arise that call for its presence and then looses its

opacity

> > as the Flowing once again takes over.

> >

> > What is the " it " that you say is seen here?

> >

> > It's kinda like being and actor is on stage for a while and after he

says his

> > lines.........he disappears.... and awareness becomes the

audience.....the

> > theater....and the night air outside.

> >

> > I think I understand what you mean, and expect that can happen.

> > But I suggest that it also can happen that *nothing* arises at

> > all, that no opacity fades because it doesn't form in the first

> > place, and that even " flowing " , when it occurs, is rather a

> > " lower energy shell " ... because mostly it is whirling vibrance

> > and light everywhere, which is to say that a " flow " is a

> > relatively constrained form of energy.

> >

> > In terms of the three states of matter, flow is less constrained

> > than a solid state, but more constrained that a gaseous state.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > I am writing this message to Marc, so is " Marc " then an object in

> > > consciousness, a fixed referent? Seemingly not. There is nothing in

> > > mind as this writing occurs. Everything has changed by the end of

> > > a sentence. Where do the words come from? The same place as breathing

> > > perhaps.

> > >

> > > An hour from now a response to this same post would be

> > > unbelievably different.

> > >

> > > Bill

> > >

> >

> >

> > Yes.

> >

> > The Flowing and the Awareness are in constant inter-relational flux.

> > It is a sublime dance.

> > It is difficult.......almost painful.....to " go back " and speak of the

scenery

> > seen when the Ever-Fresh is always present.

> >

> > But why would one ever want to " go back. " Isn't that kind like trying

> > to pull a crap back up into your butt?

> >

> > It would be like trying to get a baby to think about a painting when in

the

> > presence of a puppy.

> >

> > Yes... exactly!

> > I chuckled when I read that, as I have a nwe grandson that is about 9 mos.

old now.

> >

> > If you ever feel the need for a guru, go find yourself a 9 mo. old baby.

> >

> > Bill

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > toombaru

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote:

>

> Re: no doer of ego....nobody doing anything for real/--> no nothing for

real

>

>

> >

> > I don't know of any sense of " Bill " . I can imagine to a degree

> > having a " sense " of someone I know well, but even that is very

> > fluid. And seems the more I know someone the more fluid that

> > becomes, so that re close friends it is more mystery than anything

> > particular. If I contemplate one friend, and then subsequently

> > another, it is true that the " vibes " felt, the colors, hues, shades,

> > the energy patterns, the spatial scope and even kind of space that

> > comes up is quite distinct in each case. But it is so fluid it that

> > an hour later contemplating the same friend will be markedly

> > different. It is like contemplating a rich symphony after listening

> > to it for the first time. There may be nothing specific in such

> > contemplation. And an hour later what comes to mind re the same

> > symphony may be rather different.

>

>

> There are some very insightful books on the nature of self.

>

> " The Mind's I " by Dennett and " I am a strange loop " by Douglas Hofstadter

are

> outstanding in rooting out the odd little creature.

>

> Isn't that Dennett book co-authored by Hofstadter?

>

> I bought the " I am a strange loop " book recently, but returned it.

> I was hoping for more math-science-computer stuff. It seemed

> dumbed down from his Godel-Esche-Bach book. But I love the

> strange loop concept. In software it shows up as recursive code and

> recursive definitions. I can find a sense in saying " I am a strange

> loop, " and " you are a strange loop, " and further that, " our

> conversations are strange loops. " It is a way of admitting that

> there is no grasping the essence of things.

>

> BTW: I might give his book another try. He did have some interesting

> stuff in there. I intend to go back and check more carefully

> whether he picks up tempo in the second half of the book.

> When I returned it I got a book called Super Fractals. That's all

> strange loop stuff also. And at the other end of the scale as far

> as tempo goes. I'll probably have to review some math to get

> through it.

>

> But as for the notion of self, it is a topic of very minor interest

> to me. Why would I want to learn about something that isn't?

> However, do find certain investigations of cognitive science,

> neuro-science, and consciousness studies quite interesting, as

> for example " The Feeling of What Happens " by Antonio DeMassio,

> or " Being No One " by Thomas Metzinger. The Metzinger book is

> very interesting, and you can read the precis of it here:

>

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t & source=web & ct=res & cd=2 & url=http%3A%2F%2Fpsyche.cs\

..monash.edu.au%2Fsymposia%2Fmetzinger%2Fprecis.pdf & ei=iwnRSd2iD6i6tAPc_c2iAw & usg\

=AFQjCNESNzO9XFiJHeaYlkgIiVgeguwCfQ & sig2=agA-hb8nnCBwnFCcIsPlvQ

>

> If you have trouble with that link let me know and I can email

> you the PDF.

>

> >

> > But for " myself " nothing comes to mind at all. " Myself " is not an

> > object in this phenomenal space. In fact nothing is really an object

> > in this phenomenal space. There is nothing specific and nothing

> > stands still or persists.

>

> Here it is seen as a phantom self.....it materializes and springs into

action

> when circumstances arise that call for its presence and then looses its

opacity

> as the Flowing once again takes over.

>

> What is the " it " that you say is seen here?

>

> It's kinda like being and actor is on stage for a while and after he says

his

> lines.........he disappears.... and awareness becomes the audience.....the

> theater....and the night air outside.

>

> I think I understand what you mean, and expect that can happen.

> But I suggest that it also can happen that *nothing* arises at

> all, that no opacity fades because it doesn't form in the first

> place, and that even " flowing " , when it occurs, is rather a

> " lower energy shell " ... because mostly it is whirling vibrance

> and light everywhere, which is to say that a " flow " is a

> relatively constrained form of energy.

>

> In terms of the three states of matter, flow is less constrained

> than a solid state, but more constrained that a gaseous state.

>

>

 

 

 

 

Yes.

 

I agree.

 

The " Flowing " seems to be the outer limit of perception.

 

What we call " enlightenment " is merely a standing up in the stream and looking

around.

 

It is a vertical perspective in a horizontal world.

 

It is impossible to speak of anything beyond the Flowing not only because it is

not part of consensus reality but because the labels simply do not apply to its

edgelessness.

 

Also in the absence of the sense of self.....it can no longer be used as a point

of reference or location.

 

The opposing opposites melt into each other and the known-knowable.........(I

can't think of a word).

 

Beyond the Flowing..... the intellect or any aspect of cognition cannot go.

 

I believe that this is what Nisargadatta was speaking about when he mentions the

full stop.....or rock solidness....or at least that is how it appears to the

intellect.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> An hour from now a response to this same post would be

> > unbelievably different.

> >

> > Bill

> >

>

>

> Yes.

>

> The Flowing and the Awareness are in constant inter-relational flux.

> It is a sublime dance.

> It is difficult.......almost painful.....to " go back " and speak of the

scenery

> seen when the Ever-Fresh is always present.

>

> But why would one ever want to " go back. " Isn't that kind like trying

> to pull a crap back up into your butt?

 

 

 

 

 

Indeed.

 

One can almost see why Ramana was content to simply sit on that little table.

 

 

:-)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

> It would be like trying to get a baby to think about a painting when in

the

> presence of a puppy.

>

> Yes... exactly!

> I chuckled when I read that, as I have a nwe grandson that is about 9 mos. old

now.

 

 

 

 

Does this baby live near you?

If he does.......you are both blessed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

toombaru

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote:

>

>

>

> > Yes.

> > The night in Las Vegas that I mentioned I had been thinking about the fact

that no'thing' actually existed as a separate, distinct entity,

> >

> > That in fact there was no such thing as a " mountain " a " river " or the state

of " Texas " .

> > I had mistakenly taken 100 mg of my wife's topamax instead of my 40 mg of

Lipator and woke up in an extremely confused and anxious state of mind.

> >

> > I knew that " things " did not exist but the question arose concerning the

holder of things......namely " me " .

> >

> > If things did not exist.....neither did I.

> >

> > My mind recoiled and retreated back to the familiar.

> >

> > Like a balky horse, it refused to go any further.

> >

> > Something interjected the thought that I has sought just such a

confrontation with Reality my whole life and that perhaps I should just go along

with the event and see what happened.

> >

> > It might not come again.

> >

> > I allowed the idea concerning the essential emptiness of the holder of

things to percolate down through the synapses and after a while it gained power

and the confusion, fear and anxiety increased until it was unbearable.

> >

> > I thought that death was entirely possible but didn't have the will or

ability to stop the momentum of what was happening.

> >

> > The entire structure of the known-familiar world seemed to be breaking

apart.

> >

> > Had I been able.....I would have cried out for help......but I was

immobilized.

> >

> > After the mind-storm.....Awareness.....opened onto the Flowing......a vast

pristine-edgelessness.........indescribably grand beyond the limits of the

conceptual context.

> >

> > It's still there.......underneath the conceptual overlay.

acid did that for me...or not me.

>

> .b b.b.

>

 

 

 

I had a hospice client that was the most peaceful man that I have ever known.

 

Everyone who met him loved him beyond measure.

 

One day I asked him why he was so content.

 

He thought for a long time and then told me that when he was a young man he took

acid only one time on the beach in Hawaii.

 

He said that the world turned inside out.......and stayed that way.

 

Everything seemed to be outside and inside who he was.

 

He died of A.L.S. and never complained once.

 

 

 

toombaru

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > It came through.

> > It looks like a fun read.

> > I'll get back to ya.

> >

> I'd be thrilled.

> You'd be the first one I know

> that has also seen it.

>

> There's there's one particular

> assertion he makes that is quite

> surprising, and I can guarantee

> that it will be totally new to you.

> And his work is very rigorous, deeply

> grounded in scientific research.

>

> I believe he refers to the work as

> as philosophy of neuro-science.

>

 

 

Sometimes I have to read something a couple of times for it come through.

 

:-)

 

I'll get back to you.

 

 

 

 

 

> >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > But for " myself " nothing comes to mind at all. " Myself " is not an

> > > > object in this phenomenal space. In fact nothing is really an object

> > > > in this phenomenal space. There is nothing specific and nothing

> > > > stands still or persists.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Yes.

> > The night in Las Vegas that I mentioned I had been thinking about the fact

that no'thing' actually existed as a separate, distinct entity,

> >

> > That in fact there was no such thing as a " mountain " a " river " or the state

of " Texas " .

> > I had mistakenly taken 100 mg of my wife's topamax instead of my 40 mg of

Lipator and woke up in an extremely confused and anxious state of mind.

> >

> > I knew that " things " did not exist but the question arose concerning the

holder of things......namely " me " .

> >

> > If things did not exist.....neither did I.

> >

> > My mind recoiled and retreated back to the familiar.

>

> I am wired differently in that regard. I'm more comfortable

> with the blazing unknown than with human kind. I used to

> hike up into a remote end of the Catalina mountain range

> when I lived in Tucson. I would purposely choose the

> most rugged and least vegetated end of the range because

> other people would not be there. And there would be wild

> sheep at that end of the range, choosing it for the same

> reason that I did. In the evening I would look down on the

> city and imagine the many warm hearths and gatherings of

> people below, and think how I was so much more at home up

> on some craggy ridge with blowing wind than I would be

> down there in the midst of human kind.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Very few enter these waters.

To most they appear dark and foreboding.

And for the assumption of self............they are.

For it there is nothing to win.......and everything to lose.

This is the most terrifying adventure that the mind can attempt.

It makes everything else in the dream pale in comparison.

I admire people on these list more than I can say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

> >

> > Like a balky horse, it refused to go any further.

>

> that's a great line....

>

> > Something interjected the thought that I had sought just such a

confrontation with Reality my whole life and that perhaps I should just go along

with the event and see what happened.

> >

> > It might not come again.

> >

> > I allowed the idea concerning the essential emptiness of the holder of

things to percolate down through the synapses and after a while it gained power

and the confusion, fear and anxiety increased until it was unbearable.

> >

> > I thought that death was entirely possible but didn't have the will or

ability to stop the momentum of what was happening.

> >

> > The entire structure of the known-familiar world seemed to be breaking

apart.

> >

> > Had I been able.....I would have cried out for help......but I was

immobilized.

> >

> > After the mind-storm.....Awareness.....opened onto the Flowing......a vast

pristine-edgelessness.........indescribably grand beyond the limits of the

conceptual context.

> >

> > It's still there.......underneath the conceptual overlay.

>

> And it was there before, don't you think?

 

 

 

 

Yes.

 

I was more familiar than an old photo album.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The difference that

> experience made was than you became conscious of that

> dimension, and -- I expect -- did not find it so alien

> after all... that in a deep sense that is more home to

> you than anything else you've ever experienced. You cannot

> come to that except by yourself, and it is a given that our

> journey in this world is essentially a solitary one, so

> that experience introduced you to a new kind of intimacy

> with something that is more fundamental for you than your very

> existence as a human being.

 

 

 

One time I asked Eli Jaxon Bear if it was a choice.

 

He looked at me a long time and said:

 

" Yes! "

 

Now I believe that he was right.

 

I may be the only " choice' that the conceptual mind can ever make.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

> Am I just projecting or does that resonate?

 

 

 

 

 

It does.

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

> >

> > We're off the see 'Monsters and Aliens " with the grandbabies.

> >

> > What could be grander than that!!!!!

> >

> >

> > love t.

> >

> >

> > Will get to the second half of your post after we return.

> >

> > love

> >

> > toombaru

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Boy.......this is fun.

> >

> >

> I'm delighted you are enjoying it because

> I sure am...

>

> This is very special because we are

> both being blazingly open. A recipe

> for magic.

>

> Bill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

More and more the openness invites more openness.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

toombaru

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote:

>

>

>

> > Yes.

> > The night in Las Vegas that I mentioned I had been thinking about the fact

that no'thing' actually existed as a separate, distinct entity,

> >

> > That in fact there was no such thing as a " mountain " a " river " or the state

of " Texas " .

> > I had mistakenly taken 100 mg of my wife's topamax instead of my 40 mg of

Lipator and woke up in an extremely confused and anxious state of mind.

> >

> > I knew that " things " did not exist but the question arose concerning the

holder of things......namely " me " .

> >

> > If things did not exist.....neither did I.

> >

> > My mind recoiled and retreated back to the familiar.

> >

> > Like a balky horse, it refused to go any further.

> >

> > Something interjected the thought that I has sought just such a

confrontation with Reality my whole life and that perhaps I should just go along

with the event and see what happened.

> >

> > It might not come again.

> >

> > I allowed the idea concerning the essential emptiness of the holder of

things to percolate down through the synapses and after a while it gained power

and the confusion, fear and anxiety increased until it was unbearable.

> >

> > I thought that death was entirely possible but didn't have the will or

ability to stop the momentum of what was happening.

> >

> > The entire structure of the known-familiar world seemed to be breaking

apart.

> >

> > Had I been able.....I would have cried out for help......but I was

immobilized.

> >

> > After the mind-storm.....Awareness.....opened onto the Flowing......a vast

pristine-edgelessness.........indescribably grand beyond the limits of the

conceptual context.

> >

> > It's still there.......underneath the conceptual overlay.

acid did that for me...or not me.

>

> .b b.b.

>

 

 

are this the guys from the movie " Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas " talking in

here....?

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6f/FandlinLV.jpg

 

lol

 

 

Marc