Food for thought - Mohondas Ghandi ate meat and drank milk

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " Bob N. " <Roberibus111

wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " <silver-

> 1069@> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 "

<lissbon2002@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " <silver-

> > > 1069@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 "

> > <lissbon2002@>

> > > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 "

> <silver-

> > > > > 1069@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > > ***********

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This reminds me of something someone told me about

smoking

> > > pot.

> > > > > > Nobody would have the volition to go to war if they were

> > > always

> > > > > > stoned or something like that. I don't smoke the stuff

so

> I

> > > > > > wouldn't know. Although I have no desire to make war

> either

> > > and

> > > > I'm

> > > > > > not stoned. Whatever. I'll shut up now.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " Silver "

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > You´re sure you´re not stoned? ;-)

> > > > >

> > > > > len

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > **********

> > > >

> > > > How did we go from discussing vegetarianism and Ghandi

eating

> > meat

> > > > and drinking milk to getting stoned?? LOL. We must both be

on

> > > > drugs. Hehe.

> > > >

> > > > B-)

> > > >

> > > > " Silver "

> > >

> > >

> > > Oh, so we were discussing Gandhi???

> > > I was probably stoned :-)

> > >

> > > Len

> > >

> >

> > *************

> > Seriously?

> >

> > A sincere question: How many here do drugs? Raise your hand.

I

> > can't say that I do and I can't say that I don't. I just don't

buy

> > the stuff but if I go somewhere and a joint is passed around

(and

> my

> > girlfriend says it's okay, right Rayvin? I know you're reading

> > this...lol) I'll take a haul off it but that's about it.

> >

> > " Silver "

> > ************* "

> > I ^

> I-O

> I`

> I `'

> /`

> o `o

>

> ..........bob

>

************

Ha-Ha!!! I'll take that to mean a raised hand. Lol.

 

" Silver "

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " <silver-

1069 wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " Bob N. " <Roberibus111@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " <silver-

> > 1069@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " Bob N. " <Roberibus111@>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 "

<silver-

> > > > 1069@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 "

> > > <lissbon2002@>

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 "

> > <silver-

> > > > > > 1069@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > ***********

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This reminds me of something someone told me about

> smoking

> > > > pot.

> > > > > > > Nobody would have the volition to go to war if they

were

> > > always

> > > > > > > stoned or something like that. I don't smoke the stuff

> so

> > I

> > > > > > > wouldn't know. Although I have no desire to make war

> > either

> > > > and

> > > > > I'm

> > > > > > > not stoned. Whatever. I'll shut up now.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > " Silver "

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You´re sure you´re not stoned? ;-)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > len

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > **********

> > > > >

> > > > > How did we go from discussing vegetarianism and Ghandi

> eating

> > > meat

> > > > > and drinking milk to getting stoned?? LOL. We must both

be

> on

> > > > > drugs. Hehe.

> > > > >

> > > > > B-)

> > > > >

> > > > > " Silver "

> > > > >

> > > > Very interesting thing Silver. I've noticed a drifting into

> the

> > > > area of soft drugs and their effects in several strings and

> > > streams

> > > > of conversation in here lately. And what's even more

> enlightening

> > > is

> > > > to view the tittering about the subject and so forth,

followed

> by

> > > > complete denial of the use thereof at the present moment or

> ever

> > > by

> > > > the contributor doing the writing. A total nonidentification

> with

> > > the

> > > > devil drugs. It's like Simon Peter..'I don't know him

> now...maybe

> > > in

> > > > the past,in a time that is no more, but certainly not now'..

> now

> > > that

> > > > I am all that I can be and far more Aware and Enlightened and

> no

> > > > longer childish(that one really gets me as being very sad,

and

> a

> > > > terrible state to ever lose), etc. What is the BIG deal about

> > > > marijuana or other herbs and fungi. It's neat and tidy to say

> > > > something like,' I don't need that stuff anymore or other

such

> > > > claptrap, but as I recall, no one ever NEEDED a joint or

> peyote

> > > cap

> > > > or mushroom cap or tea or coffee, Booze is another thing.

I've

> > > seen

> > > > plenty of people that sure give evidence to need that when it

> > > comes

> > > > to that particular poison, but that's ok..that's something

> which

> > > like

> > > > wine can be enjoyed as relaxing and even sacred. And if

> someone

> > > has

> > > > a drinking problem, well they are either sick or of loose

> > > > character...certainly not the 'stuffs' fault. It's like

> smoking

> > > > cigarettes, not healthy, and surely, more and more, not

> socially

> > > > acceptable, but even if it does cause cancer , heart disease

> etc.

> > > > etc. it certainly is not as degraded as dope.This is

> bullshit.Who

> > > > cares and all that denial is sounding to me like a little too

> > much

> > > > denial, it really says a whole lot more than all the words

and

> > > > platitudes that abound about being above it all, even as it's

> all

> > > > spoken with a nudge nudge, wink wink. Like Bob Dylan

> > > said..'everyone

> > > > must get stoned', and he wasn't talking about the Magdalene's

> > > > experience either.But of course Alas and alack I'm very much

> > grown

> > > up

> > > > now and all that adolescent nonesense is behind me. I'm off

to

> > far

> > > > more important things like my spritual centering and science

> and

> > > > politics and number theory and social awareness and......well

> you

> > > can

> > > > determine where all that's going.Anyway those things of and

by

> > > > themselves don't bother me, I have several aquaintances the

do

> > > > marijuana, coffee, tea, alcohol,cigarettes and on and on.

None

> of

> > > > them are either more enlightened for it nor less so

either.And

> I

> > > am

> > > > not for not doing those substances either.Niether more no

> > less.and

> > > > that's the truth. None of that stuff has anything to do with

> > > anything

> > > > as regards Self, Awareness, Enlightenment, Realization,

> > > Recognition,

> > > > nirvane, mokshe, Samsara or the Hells..that's all about

> > > > us/I/you/it/those/whatever. The self righteousness of the

> > derision

> > > > with snickering is all too much.

> > > > ........bob

> > > >

> > >

> > > ***********

> > > I don't give a rat's ass if someone does dope or not. To

> correct a

> > > possible misunderstanding, all I said was that I don't smoke

the

> > > stuff. I didn't say I NEVER SMOKED IT. hell, I love

> marijuana.

> > > Maybe alittle too much. But I stay away from it now because in

> my

> > > 30s now it seems that it just doesn't do anything for me

anymore

> > and

> > > I'm not willing to do anything harder to get a high. I used to

> do

> > > la coca in my teens. I'd snort the shit up my nose it went and

> > > , could I ever write the lyrics. everything that came out

> of

> > > my mouth was a poetic epic. I loved how it could tun me into a

> > > lyric producing machine. I also used to do LOTS AND LOTS of

> LSD.

> > > Some days I'd be so freaking whacked on it I didn't know what

> > > reality was. What a trip. Sometime I get a little nostalgic

> and

> > > long for the good ol' days, you know? But my system couldn't

> take

> > > it anymore. Although I've done Shrooms in the last year or so,

> I

> > > can't remember and I've also smoked pot and hash and oil and

all

> > > that. so I have no issue with it at all. I think it's all

> great

> > > stuff. LOL. I just choose not to do it anymore. I wouldn't be

> > > averse to munching on a baked pot cookie now and then though

for

> > the

> > > body buzz. I ate one a few times as recently as around last

> > October

> > > for Harvest Fest. Made the entire night of drumming around the

> > fire

> > > a whole lot more....festive. LOL.

> > >

> > > ;-)

> > >

> > > " Silver "

> > >

> > No no Silver..I sure wasn't referring to you or where your

> at..This

> > post came from the response of some others regarding Da Sacred

> Herb

> > and Mushruuum too Mon. But to follow up..a few of questions:

> >

> > 1. Since you don't usually use the stuff anymore...any leftovers?

> >

> > 2. What is the procedure for doing cocoa in one's nose? sounds

> >

> > chocolatey, mmmmm! good!

> >

> > 3. That isn't Reality in AcidLand? Ahhhh man!

> >

> > 4. Where is Harvest Fest? Do I need an admission ticket? Can I

> get an

> >

> > an invite? I can accompany on guitar! How many cookies can I

> have?

> >

> > 5. Where you are at, just how much/many can someone procure with

> a

> >

> > rat's ass? I'm doing some research and I could obtain many!

> >

> > 6. Have you heard of Ayahuasca? Now That's a Reality Trip!

> >

> > ;-)))))))

> > ..........bob of the bong and song

> >

>

> ***********

> Bob of the bong and song (lol),

>

> To answer your questions:

>

> 1. " Since you don't usually use the stuff anymore...any leftovers? "

>

> Sorry. No leftovers. Fresh is better. Lol.

>

> 2. " What is the procedure for doing cocoa in one's nose? sounds

> chocolatey, mmmmm! good! "

>

> You take your favourite chocolate bar, put it into a blender, let

it

> dry for a week, then crush it into a fine powder. You then lay a

> rail down on the table and with a straw up your nostril, you

proceed

> to sniff the entire chocolatey rail into your right brain.

>

> 3. " That isn't Reality in AcidLand? Ahhhh man! "

>

> I know! Too bad, eh? Hehe.

>

> 4. " Where is Harvest Fest? Do I need an admission ticket? Can I

get

> an invite? I can accompany on guitar! How many cookies can I have? "

>

> Harvest Fest has traditionally been held on secret private land in

> Redickville for years, just North of Toronto. Unfortunately, the

> owners of the land sold their property and 2005's Harvest Fest was

> the last one to be celebrated there. However, a new location will

> be announced before October of this year. I will be sure to

forward

> you the information when I receive it. You are more than welcome

to

> party with us. But be forwarned: Can you handle being around a

> bunch of drunken skyclad female witches? Lol. :-) And the rule

> is: What goes on at Harvest Fest STAYS at Harvest Fest. Break

this

> rule and you'll find yourself turned into a newt!

>

> 5. " Where you are at, just how much/many can someone procure with

a

> rat's ass? I'm doing some research and I could obtain many! "

>

> Many various and sundry traditional Native and non-

> Native " medicines " pass to and fro through this here hub of the

> Northern parts of Canada, none of which I am at liberty to talk

> about openly due to the Laws of the Land Lords. All very easily

> obtainable, yes.

>

> 6. " Have you heard of Ayahuasca? Now That's a Reality Trip! "

>

> I'm curious. What is it?

>

> " Silver "

>

I'm going to give you a couple of web pages and a paste-on from

one of them. It's Really amazing, and there is even a religion

that has formed over it's use. Highly recommended by shamans

all over North and South America...some very rich and famous

people and some just plain mega rich heirs etc. of cereal,grain and

other industries are trying to have the same rights granted

it's usage as the Huicols have for the use of Peyote in their

religious rites and annual " mitotes " in the southern U.S.

As a Wich and Pagan, I know you'd find it of use. The art works

inspire by it are alone a phantasmagoria of delight and visual

illumination.

I'm lookin' forward to the Fest. We have a Migration Festival

down here in the sothern section, but about the only thing

openly available is cider, donuts, hot dogs on " Open Sesame "

buns and lots of arts and crafts and woodcarvings on wildfowl

and so forth. Really cool stuff though anyway. If you know a

few wandering witches and warlocks however..the sky's the

limit so don't hesitate to visit!

.......bob

 

http://www.lila.info/document_view.phtml?document_id=12

 

http://www.santodaime.org/archives/edward.htm

 

 

Ayahuasca, is a word from the Quechua linguistic family of Andean-

Equatorial South America. It means " vine of the soul " and refers both

to a large forest liana (Banisteriopsis caapi), and a strong infusion

(tea) made from its woody parts, or with one or more other plant

admixtures. The most usual addition to the brew are leaves from the

shrub Psychotria viridis. These plants are endemic to the Amazon

Basin, where they are part of a much larger plantas maestras

or " teacher plants " tradition native to that part of the world. Such

plants - many of which have emetic, purgative, cathartic, dream-

inducing and/or visionary effects – are used to facilitate states of

consciousness that are believed to open into the worlds of spirit.

 

In the typical ayahuasca preparation, the molecular basis for this

lies in the betacarboline complex (harmine, tetrahydroharmine, etc.)

and the indole dimethyltryptamine (DMT). These are part of a

structural group that includes neurotransmitters, molecules used to

effect internal communication in the human body. In ayahuasca, these

dialogues are deepened and expanded to include all manner of

elemental, plant, animal, ancestor, and deity. These then appear less

as an " other, " and more as participants in the metabolisms of yet

larger bodies, such as regional ecosystems, or the earth itself.

 

Such organismic cosmologies are common to many indigenous peoples.

These often suggest the existence of a reality a priori to material

existence, one of mythic causality in which all beings are mutually

transformative and exist as ontological equals, as " persons " .

Dialogues with such a world are effected through imaginal exchanges

(dreams and visions), dance, prayer, song, and their attendant

feeling states and sensory awareness. These describe the body's

innate capacity to converse with what is presumed to be the affective

life of the natural world. Ayahuasca allows access to this generous

bandwidth of communication, and its repeated use cultivates

familiarity with the ecology of souls which inhabit it.

 

Sophisticated eco-cosmologies have therefore evolved among Amazonian

peoples around the use of ayahuasca and other plantas maestras. These

tend to order such practical activities as healing, divination,

procreation, and hunting within the concept of an all-encompassing

fertility circuit. This view understands the world to be nourished by

a finite supply of vital force that must be equitably shared. Human

greed, waste, and disrespect can easily disrupt this flow, and the

repercussions are thought to express themselves in personal and

social ills. Spirituality and medicine are thereby integrated into

various social norms which tend to preserve ecosystem integrity.

Examples include food, sex, and hunting taboos, and the cultivation

of kinship relations with plants and animals.

 

The world of nature as revealed by ayahuasca typically appears as a

society, a culture of spiritual relations. The teachings of ayahuasca

are acts of healing, remediations in energy flow and balance whereby

one " becomes " the lessons. One so healed may then enter into

transformative relations with larger organizing forces, with greater

ecosystemic intelligences, which in turn tend to increase human self-

consciousness, inspiration, revelation, and sense of mission. When

these traits are understood within the context of spiritual

evolution, ayahuasca takes on a religious significance.

 

The idea of healing body and soul has formed the essence of religious

beliefs of peoples the world over. Similarly, one can conjecture that

the supplication of humans to the healing power of nature is the

source of much of what we know as religious thought. In this regard,

the role of plants and fungi in the origins of religions has been

explored by a number of authors. Perhaps the most well-known example

is Soma, the mysterious plant (or fungus) recounted in the Hindu Rg-

Vedas as a vehicle of religious ecstasy.

 

Plant-inspired religions can be understood as acts of guidance by an

elder community of species to a younger one, the human. They are

concerned with successful co-creative relations within the community

of nature and the organismic and spiritual growth that these bring

about. Such religions allow the initiate to cultivate an expanded

sense of self, whereby one's actions in the world are reviewed in

experiences of right or wrong, heaven or hell. This often results in

a greater awareness of, and respect for, the spiritual ecologies that

govern the world.

 

These understandings have been lost to much of religious life as

humanity civilizes itself into increasingly mono-species (exclusively

human) social arrangements and dialogues. Politicizing,

intellectualizing, and influences that move divinity off-planet have

all played their roles in denaturing the religions that have co-

evolved with Western industrialism.

 

However, a reformation of plant-inspired religions has been occurring

since the late 1800s. These often come of syncretizing influences in

places of sudden and disruptive culture change. Examples include the

evolution of the use of peyote (Lophophora williamsii ) into a pan-

Native American religion; and the creation of churches that employ

iboga root (Tabernanthe iboga) in colonized central west Africa.

Similarly, ayahuasca-based churches were born in the Amazon basin

with the influx of colonists and forest extractivists.

 

In the late 1920s, a rubber tapper named Raimundo Irineu Serra, or

Master Irineu as he came to be called, had a series of visions in the

forests near Acre, Brazil brought on by his use of ayahuasca. In

these he was visited by the Queen of the Forest in the guise of the

Virgin of Conception. Through her he received the doctrine of a new

religion based on spiritual healing. Ayahuasca took on the name of

Daime, after the invocation Dai-me Amor, Dai-me Luz. . . ( " Give me

Love, Give me Light " ), and the religion became known as Santo Daime.

Master Irineu moved to the nearby town of Rio Branco in 1930, and

there began to cultivate this religion with a small group of

adherents.

 

A number of hymns began to be received by church members in the form

of " singing murmurs, " considered to be gifted from higher worlds.

They invoke an eclectic pantheon that includes Old and New Testament

figures and various saints, spirits of sacred plants, forest animals,

devic presences, and heavenly bodies. These, along with accompanying

musical instruments and formalized dancing, became an important part

of church ceremonies and source for doctrinal development.

 

As the religion grew in Brazil, it spread from rural caboclo (mixed-

blood river dwellers) communities into new settings and populations.

These include the urban middle class, health professionals, and

intelligentsia, as well as more marginalized groups, such as drug

addicts (the churches have become well known for their work in

helping people to overcome addictions), counter-culturalists, and the

urban poor. This growth stimulated the formation of sects. For

example, the Barquinha ( " little boat " ) group emerged in the 1950's;

it accommodates aspects of the very heterogeneous Umbanda (mediumist)

spiritualism.

 

Yet another rubber tapper, Jose Gabriel da Costa, encountered the use

of ayahuasca with native Indians in the forests bordering Bolivia and

Brazil. In 1961 he founded the U.D.V. (União do Vegetal) which soon

spread into the urban south of Brazil. Among the more hierarchical

and organizationally sophisticated of the ayahuasca religions, the

U.D.V. stresses a less " active " service, with long periods of silence

interspersed with conversational sharing.

 

Despite differences, all churches share similarities that derive from

the integrative nature of ayahuasca itself. It is considered a

sacrament, and like its predecessor soma, a divinity, both " Christ's

blood, " and a forest spirit. The replacement of the bread and wine

Eucharist with ayahuasca brings an eco-spiritual force into communion

with Christian saints and their prescriptions of love, peace,

charity, and fraternity. By unifying the naturalized and the

civilized, it appears to work as a bridge over the 500 years of

culture clashes wrought by the colonialist enterprise. In this way it

births new cultural forms of indigeneity, ways of belonging to the

land that reflect the needs of the various peoples brought to it.

 

A notable example is the 1982 founding of a community called Vila Céu

do Mapiá (Mapia) by Santo Daime church members. Located in a large

forest reserve in the Brazilian state of Amazonas, Mapia is intended

as an ecological-communal " social laboratory " where the teachings

received through the Daime can be practiced in daily life.

 

The world affirmed by ayahuasca, and in fact all teacher plants,

tends to run contrary to that enacted by industrial-growth cultures.

Hence those individuals that convert often become less amenable to

mainstream mores, values, and ways of life. The media in Brazil and

elsewhere have observed this, and in recent years have accused the

churches of contributing to the breakdown of society; this by

inducing its followers into acts of fanaticism, such as leaving one's

city life and disappearing into the forest.

 

Antipathy to the forces of change unleashed by sacred plants is

likewise reflected in the modern War on Drugs. Under international

pressure, Brazil added B. caapi to its list of controlled substances

in 1985. Following a series of appeals and investigations it was

removed from the list with provisions in 1987, and fully exempted in

1992. In that year its legitimacy was celebrated with ayahuasca

ceremonies featured as part of the inter-religious vigil of the

Global Forum section of the Earth Summit conference in Rio de Janeiro.

 

As the use of ayahuasca spreads outside of Brazil, it continues to

run into prohibition policies. In recent years the churches in Europe

and the U.S. experienced a number of seizures and arrests. Many court

cases are pending, though a decision on May 21, 2001 in the Dutch

court acquitted the Santo Daime church under the constitutional right

to freedom of religion.

 

Modern ayahuasca religions are born both of the sylvan cosmos and a

humanity sundered from that world. They therefore have great

implications during this era of ecological crisis. To reestablish

communicative relations with medicinal plants is to reconnect with a

perennial source of assistance to humans. What such plants can do for

individuals, they can do for communities; in this way they engender

healing cultures. This process continues in Brazil (e.g., the Centro

de Cultura Cósmica has recently sprouted from both Santo Daime and

the U.D.V. influences) and in other areas of the world, where such

movements are more covert.

 

These religions are prophetic in considering themselves microcosmic

realities of a future-healed earth, yet for them, the future is now.

They presume that as more people awaken to this reality, a relational

indigeneity appropriate for the times will become increasingly

accepted as a new cultural norm, and the planetary crisis will then

pass. This vision is millenarian in scope, and suggests the

inevitable evolution of a heart-opening ecotopia. To this end, a

Daime hymn sings of a " new life, new world, new people, new earth. "

 

 

 

 

Bibliography

 

Descola, Phillipe

 

1994 In the Society of Nature. New York: Cambridge University Press.

 

Forte, Robert, ed.

 

1997 Entheogens and the Future of Religions. San Francisco: Council

on Spiritual Practices.

 

Grob Charles, et al

 

1996 Human Psychopharmacology of Hoasca, A Plant Hallucinogen Used in

Ritual Context in Brazil (including commentary by Marlene Dobkin Del

Rios). Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease. 184(2):86-98.

 

Groisman, A., and A.B. Sell

 

1996 " Healing Power " : Cultural-Neurophenomenological Therapy of Santo

Daime. (In) Yearbook of Cross-Cultural Medicine and Psychotherapy

1995. Michael Windelman & Walter Andritzky, eds. VWM - Verlag fur

Wissenschaft und Bildung.

 

McKenna, Terence

 

1991 The Archaic Revival. San Francisco: Harper.

 

Metzner, Ralph

 

1999 Green Psychology: transforming our relationship to earth.

Rochester, VT: Inner Traditions Press.

 

Polari, Alex

 

1996 Might the Gods be Alkaloids? Paper presented at International

Transpersonal Association's Annual Conference " The Technologies of

the Sacred. " Manaus, Brazil

 

Reichel-Dolmatoff, G.

 

1976 Cosmology as Ecological Analysis: a view from the rain forest

(Huxley Memorial Lecture 1975). Man. 11:307-318.

 

Ruck, Carl, R. Gordon Wasson, Stella Kramrisch, Jonathan Ott

 

1992 Persephone's Quest. Yale University Press: New Haven, CT.

 

 

 

copyright Morgan Brent

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " <silver-

1069 wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " Bob N. " <Roberibus111@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " <silver-

> > 1069@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 "

> <lissbon2002@>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 "

<silver-

> > > > 1069@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 "

> > > <lissbon2002@>

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 "

> > <silver-

> > > > > > 1069@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > ***********

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This reminds me of something someone told me about

> smoking

> > > > pot.

> > > > > > > Nobody would have the volition to go to war if they

were

> > > > always

> > > > > > > stoned or something like that. I don't smoke the stuff

> so

> > I

> > > > > > > wouldn't know. Although I have no desire to make war

> > either

> > > > and

> > > > > I'm

> > > > > > > not stoned. Whatever. I'll shut up now.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > " Silver "

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You´re sure you´re not stoned? ;-)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > len

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > **********

> > > > >

> > > > > How did we go from discussing vegetarianism and Ghandi

> eating

> > > meat

> > > > > and drinking milk to getting stoned?? LOL. We must both

be

> on

> > > > > drugs. Hehe.

> > > > >

> > > > > B-)

> > > > >

> > > > > " Silver "

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Oh, so we were discussing Gandhi???

> > > > I was probably stoned :-)

> > > >

> > > > Len

> > > >

> > >

> > > *************

> > > Seriously?

> > >

> > > A sincere question: How many here do drugs? Raise your hand.

> I

> > > can't say that I do and I can't say that I don't. I just don't

> buy

> > > the stuff but if I go somewhere and a joint is passed around

> (and

> > my

> > > girlfriend says it's okay, right Rayvin? I know you're reading

> > > this...lol) I'll take a haul off it but that's about it.

> > >

> > > " Silver "

> > > ************* "

> > > I ^

> > I-O

> > I`

> > I `'

> > /`

> > o `o

> >

> > ..........bob

> >

> ************

> Ha-Ha!!! I'll take that to mean a raised hand. Lol.

>

> " Silver "

>

You Got'er........bob

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote:

>

>

> In a message dated 3/31/2006 11:52:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> Nisargadatta writes:

>

> Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:18:21 -0000

> " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002

> Re: " Food for thought " - Mohondas Ghandi ate meat and

drank milk

>

> Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote:

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 3/30/2006 8:23:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> > Nisargadatta writes:

> >

> > Thu, 30 Mar 2006 12:29:13 -0000

> > " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002@>

> > Re: " Food for thought " - Mohondas Ghandi ate meat and

> drank milk

> >

> > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > > I have observed that my choices are the inevitable outcome

of

> my

> > experience.

> > > There is only one choice possible, given my conditions of

> birth,

> > the

> > > internal dynamics present at birth, my experience and all

of

> my

> > choices based on

> > > those conditions, dynamics and experience. All of that has

led

> to

> > the present

> > > moment in which I can make a choice. What choice will I

make?

> I

> > will make the

> > > only one I can based on what came before.

> > >

> > > My ego would dearly love to find that it has volitional

> choice,

> > and it

> > > generally pretends it does even though I know better, but

I'll

> be

> > damned if I can

> > > find a 'me' who is able to do that. I'm more than willing

to

> > change my mind

> > > about that.

> > >

> > > Phil

> >

> >

> >

> > What you´re saying is an Advaita conditioning.

> > Let´s look at it afresh:

> > You are conditioned. Because of your conditioning you see only

> one

> > possibility of reacting (or at least, the possibilities are

> limited

> > to a certain spectrum). You say that there is no volition in

it.

> > But, in fact, from a larger perspective, there are billions of

> > possibilities of reacting and chosing. Your choice is limited

to

> > only one. You have been conditioned to chose this possibility

> among

> > other. You have been conditioned to WANT this possibility

among

> > others. You have been conditioned to WANT something. We all

have

> > been conditioned to WANT something, we all have been

conditioned

> to

> > CHOOSE something. So our conditioning is our volition.

> > When there is no conditioning, there is no volition.

> > You don´t have a choice to be free from volition, but through

> > understanding of the limitation of chosing, the limitation of

> > volition, you may be free from it.

> >

> > Len

> >

> >

> >

> > I do not see only one possibility, I make only one choice of

many

> potential

> > possibilities, just as you do. I experience the choosing, just

as

> you do. Yes,

> > there is conditioning. How is conditioning volition? If all

that

> goes into a

> > choice is conditioning, where is the volition? There must be

> something

> > present that can choose against it's conditioning. Can you

make a

> choice against

> > your conditioning? Are you sure you weren't conditioned to do

> that?

> >

> > The only entity I see is not a volitional entity. It is merely

> observing a

> > process occurring; it is neither thinking nor choosing. With

all

> the activity

> > occurring, there seems to be nothing doing the activity. It

seems

> to be

> > occurring on it's own.

> >

> > Phil

>

>

>

> You have been conditioned to WANT some things and not to WANT

some

> other.

> You´ve been conditioned into volition.

> Freedom from volition is freedom from conditioning.

>

> Len

>

>

>

> My dictionary says volition means:

>

> " the power of choosing or determining "

>

> I've been conditioned to choose and freedom from conditioning

means no

> choosing. Fine. This does not leave me with volitional choice. >

 

Freedom from desire

> is not the same as volitional choice.

 

 

 

No, volitional choice is to be stuck in desires, to be stuck in

wanting and not wanting.

 

 

 

> Even if it were, removing the

> conditioning is not possible and so the volition would only be

theoretical.

>

> Phil

 

 

 

This is a belief you´ve been conditioned to hang on to.

 

Len

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/1/2006 6:46:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,

Nisargadatta writes:

 

Sat, 01 Apr 2006 14:42:28 -0000

" lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002

Re: " Food for thought " - Mohondas Ghandi ate meat and drank milk

 

Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote:

>

>

> In a message dated 3/31/2006 11:52:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> Nisargadatta writes:

>

> Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:18:21 -0000

> " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002

> Re: " Food for thought " - Mohondas Ghandi ate meat and

drank milk

>

> Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote:

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 3/30/2006 8:23:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> > Nisargadatta writes:

> >

> > Thu, 30 Mar 2006 12:29:13 -0000

> > " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002@>

> > Re: " Food for thought " - Mohondas Ghandi ate meat and

> drank milk

> >

> > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > > I have observed that my choices are the inevitable outcome

of

> my

> > experience.

> > > There is only one choice possible, given my conditions of

> birth,

> > the

> > > internal dynamics present at birth, my experience and all

of

> my

> > choices based on

> > > those conditions, dynamics and experience. All of that has

led

> to

> > the present

> > > moment in which I can make a choice. What choice will I

make?

> I

> > will make the

> > > only one I can based on what came before.

> > >

> > > My ego would dearly love to find that it has volitional

> choice,

> > and it

> > > generally pretends it does even though I know better, but

I'll

> be

> > damned if I can

> > > find a 'me' who is able to do that. I'm more than willing

to

> > change my mind

> > > about that.

> > >

> > > Phil

> >

> >

> >

> > What you´re saying is an Advaita conditioning.

> > Let´s look at it afresh:

> > You are conditioned. Because of your conditioning you see only

> one

> > possibility of reacting (or at least, the possibilities are

> limited

> > to a certain spectrum). You say that there is no volition in

it.

> > But, in fact, from a larger perspective, there are billions of

> > possibilities of reacting and chosing. Your choice is limited

to

> > only one. You have been conditioned to chose this possibility

> among

> > other. You have been conditioned to WANT this possibility

among

> > others. You have been conditioned to WANT something. We all

have

> > been conditioned to WANT something, we all have been

conditioned

> to

> > CHOOSE something. So our conditioning is our volition.

> > When there is no conditioning, there is no volition.

> > You don´t have a choice to be free from volition, but through

> > understanding of the limitation of chosing, the limitation of

> > volition, you may be free from it.

> >

> > Len

> >

> >

> >

> > I do not see only one possibility, I make only one choice of

many

> potential

> > possibilities, just as you do. I experience the choosing, just

as

> you do. Yes,

> > there is conditioning. How is conditioning volition? If all

that

> goes into a

> > choice is conditioning, where is the volition? There must be

> something

> > present that can choose against it's conditioning. Can you

make a

> choice against

> > your conditioning? Are you sure you weren't conditioned to do

> that?

> >

> > The only entity I see is not a volitional entity. It is merely

> observing a

> > process occurring; it is neither thinking nor choosing. With

all

> the activity

> > occurring, there seems to be nothing doing the activity. It

seems

> to be

> > occurring on it's own.

> >

> > Phil

>

>

>

> You have been conditioned to WANT some things and not to WANT

some

> other.

> You´ve been conditioned into volition.

> Freedom from volition is freedom from conditioning.

>

> Len

>

>

>

> My dictionary says volition means:

>

> " the power of choosing or determining "

>

> I've been conditioned to choose and freedom from conditioning

means no

> choosing. Fine. This does not leave me with volitional choice. >

 

Freedom from desire

> is not the same as volitional choice.

 

 

 

No, volitional choice is to be stuck in desires, to be stuck in

wanting and not wanting.

 

 

 

> Even if it were, removing the

> conditioning is not possible and so the volition would only be

theoretical.

>

> Phil

 

 

 

This is a belief you´ve been conditioned to hang on to.

 

Len

 

 

 

An interesting non-discussion, Len.

 

Phil

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote:

>

>

> In a message dated 4/1/2006 6:46:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> Nisargadatta writes:

>

> Sat, 01 Apr 2006 14:42:28 -0000

> " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002

> Re: " Food for thought " - Mohondas Ghandi ate meat and

drank milk

>

> Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote:

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 3/31/2006 11:52:20 AM Pacific Standard

Time,

> > Nisargadatta writes:

> >

> > Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:18:21 -0000

> > " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002@>

> > Re: " Food for thought " - Mohondas Ghandi ate meat and

> drank milk

> >

> > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > In a message dated 3/30/2006 8:23:09 AM Pacific Standard

Time,

> > > Nisargadatta writes:

> > >

> > > Thu, 30 Mar 2006 12:29:13 -0000

> > > " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002@>

> > > Re: " Food for thought " - Mohondas Ghandi ate meat

and

> > drank milk

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > I have observed that my choices are the inevitable

outcome

> of

> > my

> > > experience.

> > > > There is only one choice possible, given my conditions

of

> > birth,

> > > the

> > > > internal dynamics present at birth, my experience and

all

> of

> > my

> > > choices based on

> > > > those conditions, dynamics and experience. All of that

has

> led

> > to

> > > the present

> > > > moment in which I can make a choice. What choice will I

> make?

> > I

> > > will make the

> > > > only one I can based on what came before.

> > > >

> > > > My ego would dearly love to find that it has volitional

> > choice,

> > > and it

> > > > generally pretends it does even though I know better,

but

> I'll

> > be

> > > damned if I can

> > > > find a 'me' who is able to do that. I'm more than

willing

> to

> > > change my mind

> > > > about that.

> > > >

> > > > Phil

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > What you´re saying is an Advaita conditioning.

> > > Let´s look at it afresh:

> > > You are conditioned. Because of your conditioning you see

only

> > one

> > > possibility of reacting (or at least, the possibilities are

> > limited

> > > to a certain spectrum). You say that there is no volition in

> it.

> > > But, in fact, from a larger perspective, there are billions

of

> > > possibilities of reacting and chosing. Your choice is

limited

> to

> > > only one. You have been conditioned to chose this

possibility

> > among

> > > other. You have been conditioned to WANT this possibility

> among

> > > others. You have been conditioned to WANT something. We all

> have

> > > been conditioned to WANT something, we all have been

> conditioned

> > to

> > > CHOOSE something. So our conditioning is our volition.

> > > When there is no conditioning, there is no volition.

> > > You don´t have a choice to be free from volition, but

through

> > > understanding of the limitation of chosing, the limitation

of

> > > volition, you may be free from it.

> > >

> > > Len

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I do not see only one possibility, I make only one choice of

> many

> > potential

> > > possibilities, just as you do. I experience the choosing,

just

> as

> > you do. Yes,

> > > there is conditioning. How is conditioning volition? If

all

> that

> > goes into a

> > > choice is conditioning, where is the volition? There must

be

> > something

> > > present that can choose against it's conditioning. Can you

> make a

> > choice against

> > > your conditioning? Are you sure you weren't conditioned to

do

> > that?

> > >

> > > The only entity I see is not a volitional entity. It is

merely

> > observing a

> > > process occurring; it is neither thinking nor choosing. With

> all

> > the activity

> > > occurring, there seems to be nothing doing the activity. It

> seems

> > to be

> > > occurring on it's own.

> > >

> > > Phil

> >

> >

> >

> > You have been conditioned to WANT some things and not to WANT

> some

> > other.

> > You´ve been conditioned into volition.

> > Freedom from volition is freedom from conditioning.

> >

> > Len

> >

> >

> >

> > My dictionary says volition means:

> >

> > " the power of choosing or determining "

> >

> > I've been conditioned to choose and freedom from conditioning

> means no

> > choosing. Fine. This does not leave me with volitional choice.

>

>

> Freedom from desire

> > is not the same as volitional choice.

>

>

>

> No, volitional choice is to be stuck in desires, to be stuck in

> wanting and not wanting.

>

>

>

> > Even if it were, removing the

> > conditioning is not possible and so the volition would only be

> theoretical.

> >

> > Phil

>

>

>

> This is a belief you´ve been conditioned to hang on to.

>

> Len

>

>

>

> An interesting non-discussion, Len.

>

> Phil

 

 

 

Not really.

 

Len