Guest guest Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 It is very clear that psychological time always creates a conflict between what is happening in the present moment, and what the intellect thinks/wants/don't want about the future. Even so called " positive " thoughts related to time create this conflict between the now and a perceived/expected/planned future. The inner conflict created by the intellect in relation of time is felt as two basic types of emotion: waiting and/or stress. All other negative emotions stem from this fundamental inner conflict. One spiritual practice is to observe thoughts and emotions as separate phenomena, which brings to surface the root of this inner conflict. Usually, thoughts and emotions are fused into one messy interrelated web. The purpose of separating emotions from thoughts is to resolve the inner battle agains time. Negative emotions dissolve when no longer supported by negative thoughts, and negative thoughts dissolve when not supported by negative emotions. We often believe that thinking creates emotions, or the other way around, but the two go together in a complex and messy entanglement. In this fused state inner conflict cannot be resolved. Only by rising above both the intellect and emotions can a greater perspective of one's own sense of self appear. When we sense thoughts and emotions at the same time, then we detach from our usual habitual way of thinking. Descartes: " I think, therefore I am " no longer holds true fundamentally. Instead we reach a state of: " I am, and my intellect thinks " . When we observe our emotions directly, there is no thinking involved, i.e. there is no time delay between direct sensing and mental conceptual image-making. Thinking the begins to appear as separate from emotions, and we can directly observe/sense the relation between the conceptual thinking process and emotions. We can then " feel " our thoughts, so to speak from a level above the intellect, and our thoughts can no longer dominate our sense of self. Negative thoughts are then seen as negative because there is a tremendously strong connection between the negative thoughts and the emotions that goes along, are " lit up " , by those thoughts. Without the capacity to rise above the intellect, no true inner peace can enter our being. As long as our thinking continues to generate psychological time, we will remain in a state of inner conflict, which subsequently is the cause of outer conflict. Even positive thoughts about the future are not the same as inner peace. Positive thoughts are still a way to make the living moment your enemy (causing waiting and probably almost always even stress). Not even what we call " positive stress " is the same as inner peace. All that positive stress does is that it makes the intellect occupied with things to do so that it FORGETS its sense of psychological time for the duration we are involved in the " just enough things to do " activity called positive stress. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: hello AL! > It is very clear that psychological time always creates a conflict > between what is happening in the present moment, and what the > intellect thinks/wants/don't want about the future. Even so called > " positive " thoughts related to time create this conflict between the > now and a perceived/expected/planned future. > > The inner conflict created by the intellect in relation of time is > felt as two basic types of emotion: waiting and/or stress. All other > negative emotions stem from this fundamental inner conflict. W: this conflict you talk about is life, seen from the point of view of someone thinking to be an entity inside a body-mind. > One spiritual practice is to observe thoughts and emotions as separate > phenomena, which brings to surface the root of this inner conflict. > Usually, thoughts and emotions are fused into one messy interrelated > web. The purpose of separating emotions from thoughts is to resolve > the inner battle agains time. Negative emotions dissolve when no > longer supported by negative thoughts, and negative thoughts dissolve > when not supported by negative emotions. W:is this issue interrelated with some emotions or not? > We often believe that thinking creates emotions, or the other way > around, but the two go together in a complex and messy entanglement. > In this fused state inner conflict cannot be resolved. Only by rising > above both the intellect and emotions can a greater perspective of > one's own sense of self appear. When we sense thoughts and emotions at > the same time, then we detach from our usual habitual way of thinking. > Descartes: " I think, therefore I am " no longer holds true > fundamentally. Instead we reach a state of: " I am, and my intellect > thinks " . W: the conflict is resolved by the death of the identification with the entity you think to be. > When we observe our emotions directly, there is no thinking involved, > i.e. there is no time delay between direct sensing and mental > conceptual image-making. W: there is no " we " observing emotions. yes! there is never no time delaying when there is noone inside the body-mind. that's all! Thinking the begins to appear as separate > from emotions, and we can directly observe/sense the relation between > the conceptual thinking process and emotions. We can then " feel " our > thoughts, so to speak from a level above the intellect, and our > thoughts can no longer dominate our sense of self. Negative thoughts > are then seen as negative because there is a tremendously strong > connection between the negative thoughts and the emotions that goes > along, are " lit up " , by those thoughts. > > Without the capacity to rise above the intellect, no true inner peace > can enter our being. W: inner peace is our being, right now. it is not a case of entering or losing it. too simple? As long as our thinking continues to generate > psychological time, we will remain in a state of inner conflict, which > subsequently is the cause of outer conflict. Even positive thoughts > about the future are not the same as inner peace. Positive thoughts > are still a way to make the living moment your enemy (causing waiting > and probably almost always even stress). Not even what we call > " positive stress " is the same as inner peace. All that positive stress > does is that it makes the intellect occupied with things to do so that > it FORGETS its sense of psychological time for the duration we are > involved in the " just enough things to do " activity called positive > stress. > > al. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > hello AL! > > > > It is very clear that psychological time always creates a conflict > > between what is happening in the present moment, and what the > > intellect thinks/wants/don't want about the future. Even so called > > " positive " thoughts related to time create this conflict between the > > now and a perceived/expected/planned future. > > > > The inner conflict created by the intellect in relation of time is > > felt as two basic types of emotion: waiting and/or stress. All other > > negative emotions stem from this fundamental inner conflict. > > W: this conflict you talk about is life, seen from the point of view > of someone thinking to be an entity inside a body-mind. > > > One spiritual practice is to observe thoughts and emotions as > separate > > phenomena, which brings to surface the root of this inner conflict. > > Usually, thoughts and emotions are fused into one messy interrelated > > web. The purpose of separating emotions from thoughts is to resolve > > the inner battle agains time. Negative emotions dissolve when no > > longer supported by negative thoughts, and negative thoughts > dissolve > > when not supported by negative emotions. > > W:is this issue interrelated with some emotions or not? > > > We often believe that thinking creates emotions, or the other way > > around, but the two go together in a complex and messy entanglement. > > In this fused state inner conflict cannot be resolved. Only by > rising > > above both the intellect and emotions can a greater perspective of > > one's own sense of self appear. When we sense thoughts and emotions > at > > the same time, then we detach from our usual habitual way of > thinking. > > Descartes: " I think, therefore I am " no longer holds true > > fundamentally. Instead we reach a state of: " I am, and my intellect > > thinks " . > > W: the conflict is resolved by the death of the identification with > the entity you think to be. > > > > > > > When we observe our emotions directly, there is no thinking > involved, > > i.e. there is no time delay between direct sensing and mental > > conceptual image-making. > > W: there is no " we " observing emotions. > yes! there is never no time delaying when there is noone inside the > body-mind. that's all! > > > > > Thinking the begins to appear as separate > > from emotions, and we can directly observe/sense the relation > between > > the conceptual thinking process and emotions. We can then " feel " our > > thoughts, so to speak from a level above the intellect, and our > > thoughts can no longer dominate our sense of self. Negative thoughts > > are then seen as negative because there is a tremendously strong > > connection between the negative thoughts and the emotions that goes > > along, are " lit up " , by those thoughts. > > > > Without the capacity to rise above the intellect, no true inner > peace > > can enter our being. > > W: inner peace is our being, right now. it is not a case of entering > or losing it. too simple? > > > > > > As long as our thinking continues to generate > > psychological time, we will remain in a state of inner conflict, > which > > subsequently is the cause of outer conflict. Even positive thoughts > > about the future are not the same as inner peace. Positive thoughts > > are still a way to make the living moment your enemy (causing > waiting > > and probably almost always even stress). Not even what we call > > " positive stress " is the same as inner peace. All that positive > stress > > does is that it makes the intellect occupied with things to do so > that > > it FORGETS its sense of psychological time for the duration we are > > involved in the " just enough things to do " activity called positive > > stress. > > > > al. > > It may be true that the " solution " to the problem of psycholical time is easy when one can stand in a nondual state of what Ken Wilber sometimes call One Taste. However, in our ordinary daily lives, it is not so simple. We have personal relationships, bills to pay and money to earn. So talking about inner peace must have a ground in actual everyday experience with all the irritations, frustrations and worries life brings when we are stuck in the intellect. It is easy to be " spiritual " from time to time, but another thing to have actual inner peace 24/7 in our personal conflict-ridden lives. Ideas about inner peace are only pointers. The state of inner peace must be reached in actuality, or we are just running around in an intellectual or dogmatic treadmill. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 Al, there is no however. until you want to identify yourself with " your ordinary daily life " ...irritations, frustration and worries will be there, as real as the one you think yourself to be. Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > hello AL! > > > > > > > It is very clear that psychological time always creates a conflict > > > between what is happening in the present moment, and what the > > > intellect thinks/wants/don't want about the future. Even so called > > > " positive " thoughts related to time create this conflict between the > > > now and a perceived/expected/planned future. > > > > > > The inner conflict created by the intellect in relation of time is > > > felt as two basic types of emotion: waiting and/or stress. All other > > > negative emotions stem from this fundamental inner conflict. > > > > W: this conflict you talk about is life, seen from the point of view > > of someone thinking to be an entity inside a body-mind. > > > > > One spiritual practice is to observe thoughts and emotions as > > separate > > > phenomena, which brings to surface the root of this inner conflict. > > > Usually, thoughts and emotions are fused into one messy interrelated > > > web. The purpose of separating emotions from thoughts is to resolve > > > the inner battle agains time. Negative emotions dissolve when no > > > longer supported by negative thoughts, and negative thoughts > > dissolve > > > when not supported by negative emotions. > > > > W:is this issue interrelated with some emotions or not? > > > > > We often believe that thinking creates emotions, or the other way > > > around, but the two go together in a complex and messy entanglement. > > > In this fused state inner conflict cannot be resolved. Only by > > rising > > > above both the intellect and emotions can a greater perspective of > > > one's own sense of self appear. When we sense thoughts and emotions > > at > > > the same time, then we detach from our usual habitual way of > > thinking. > > > Descartes: " I think, therefore I am " no longer holds true > > > fundamentally. Instead we reach a state of: " I am, and my intellect > > > thinks " . > > > > W: the conflict is resolved by the death of the identification with > > the entity you think to be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > When we observe our emotions directly, there is no thinking > > involved, > > > i.e. there is no time delay between direct sensing and mental > > > conceptual image-making. > > > > W: there is no " we " observing emotions. > > yes! there is never no time delaying when there is noone inside the > > body-mind. that's all! > > > > > > > > > > Thinking the begins to appear as separate > > > from emotions, and we can directly observe/sense the relation > > between > > > the conceptual thinking process and emotions. We can then " feel " our > > > thoughts, so to speak from a level above the intellect, and our > > > thoughts can no longer dominate our sense of self. Negative thoughts > > > are then seen as negative because there is a tremendously strong > > > connection between the negative thoughts and the emotions that goes > > > along, are " lit up " , by those thoughts. > > > > > > Without the capacity to rise above the intellect, no true inner > > peace > > > can enter our being. > > > > W: inner peace is our being, right now. it is not a case of entering > > or losing it. too simple? > > > > > > > > > > > > As long as our thinking continues to generate > > > psychological time, we will remain in a state of inner conflict, > > which > > > subsequently is the cause of outer conflict. Even positive thoughts > > > about the future are not the same as inner peace. Positive thoughts > > > are still a way to make the living moment your enemy (causing > > waiting > > > and probably almost always even stress). Not even what we call > > > " positive stress " is the same as inner peace. All that positive > > stress > > > does is that it makes the intellect occupied with things to do so > > that > > > it FORGETS its sense of psychological time for the duration we are > > > involved in the " just enough things to do " activity called positive > > > stress. > > > > > > al. > > > > > It may be true that the " solution " to the problem of psycholical time > is easy when one can stand in a nondual state of what Ken Wilber > sometimes call One Taste. However, in our ordinary daily lives, it is > not so simple. We have personal relationships, bills to pay and money > to earn. So talking about inner peace must have a ground in actual > everyday experience with all the irritations, frustrations and worries > life brings when we are stuck in the intellect. It is easy to be > " spiritual " from time to time, but another thing to have actual inner > peace 24/7 in our personal conflict-ridden lives. Ideas about inner > peace are only pointers. The state of inner peace must be reached in > actuality, or we are just running around in an intellectual or > dogmatic treadmill. > > al. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 > > > > > It may be true that the " solution " to the problem of psycholical time > is easy when one can stand in a nondual state of what Ken Wilber > sometimes call One Taste. However, in our ordinary daily lives, it is > not so simple. We have personal relationships, bills to pay and money > to earn. So talking about inner peace must have a ground in actual > everyday experience with all the irritations, frustrations and worries > life brings when we are stuck in the intellect. It is easy to be > " spiritual " from time to time, but another thing to have actual inner > peace 24/7 in our personal conflict-ridden lives. Ideas about inner > peace are only pointers. The state of inner peace must be reached in > actuality, or we are just running around in an intellectual or > dogmatic treadmill. > > al. hi al., inner peace has nothing to do with any " worldly " actions..... exactly this actions take the time away.....one need to be oneSelf.... or at least....to start being spiritual hearted.....means, finding some inner peace.....by searching " inside " .....instead of " outside " .... endless theories existing....to keep on being (extremely) busy with the " world " .......food for the ego-mind at every corner few " spiritual experiences " or insights let some people " think " they are " this or that " .....after havening been " this or that " ...... but in reality......nothing realy changed in their (ego)being..... still seperated to pure knowledge and pure love changing from being proud of material....to .....being proud of " spirituality " .......change nothing into the degree of ignorance there is no God who ever can be responsible for false identifications......and the resulted mountains of Karma one build up .....by being attached to illusions.....and dreams....to be " whatever and whoever " God is this " one love " .....which is in deep heart of everyone.....to be developed into a complete.....free and liberated being....... this is a process which take " time " ......for some with much " effort " .....for some others.....with " no effort " ...... the ones who are at the end of this process are realised and liberated......or " whatever " the name of It....... many theories to " reduce " this " time of process " existing.......but it's sure that the " time " will change to " timeless " ....at the end of this process...... any actions by attachment to a limited " world perception " take time " away " for this process...... up to us....to " look behind " ......to discover the Self......the real nature Marc > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 I am the identification. Werner Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > Al, there is no however. until you want to identify yourself > with " your ordinary daily life " ...irritations, frustration and > worries will be there, as real as the one you think yourself to be. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > Al, there is no however. until you want to identify yourself > with " your ordinary daily life " ...irritations, frustration and > worries will be there, as real as the one you think yourself to be. > I don't think it is possible to escape one's ordinary practical life. I had an idea that maybe one has to become more dynamic in relation to life, to be intense in thoughts and action when the time is right, and to rest in the flow of the now when intense thoughts and actions are not needed. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > > > > It may be true that the " solution " to the problem of psycholical > time > > is easy when one can stand in a nondual state of what Ken Wilber > > sometimes call One Taste. However, in our ordinary daily lives, it > is > > not so simple. We have personal relationships, bills to pay and > money > > to earn. So talking about inner peace must have a ground in actual > > everyday experience with all the irritations, frustrations and > worries > > life brings when we are stuck in the intellect. It is easy to be > > " spiritual " from time to time, but another thing to have actual > inner > > peace 24/7 in our personal conflict-ridden lives. Ideas about inner > > peace are only pointers. The state of inner peace must be reached in > > actuality, or we are just running around in an intellectual or > > dogmatic treadmill. > > > > al. > > hi al., > > inner peace has nothing to do with any " worldly " actions..... > exactly this actions take the time away.....one need to be oneSelf.... > > or at least....to start being spiritual hearted.....means, finding > some inner peace.....by searching " inside " .....instead > of " outside " .... > > endless theories existing....to keep on being (extremely) busy with > the " world " .......food for the ego-mind at every corner > > few " spiritual experiences " or insights let some people " think " they > are " this or that " .....after havening been " this or that " ...... > but in reality......nothing realy changed in their (ego)being..... > > still seperated to pure knowledge and pure love > > changing from being proud of material....to .....being proud > of " spirituality " .......change nothing into the degree of ignorance > > there is no God who ever can be responsible for false > identifications......and the resulted mountains of Karma one build > up .....by being attached to illusions.....and dreams....to > be " whatever and whoever " > > God is this " one love " .....which is in deep heart of everyone.....to > be developed into a complete.....free and liberated being....... > > this is a process which take " time " ......for some with > much " effort " .....for some others.....with " no effort " ...... > > the ones who are at the end of this process are realised and > liberated......or " whatever " the name of It....... > > many theories to " reduce " this " time of process " existing.......but > it's sure that the " time " will change to " timeless " ....at the end of > this process...... > > any actions by attachment to a limited " world perception " take > time " away " for this process...... > > up to us....to " look behind " ......to discover the Self......the real > nature > > Marc > I think liberation is simply to be able to rise above one's own stuckness in the conditioned sense of self. It is not so " only " , it is an immense shift I believe. It is really interesting to see if this is possible. To put oneself under the scientific and brutally objective gaze of introspection. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 that is exactly what you are doing, aren't you? Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > > > Al, there is no however. until you want to identify yourself > > with " your ordinary daily life " ...irritations, frustration and > > worries will be there, as real as the one you think yourself to be. > > > > I don't think it is possible to escape one's ordinary practical life. > I had an idea that maybe one has to become more dynamic in relation to > life, to be intense in thoughts and action when the time is right, and > to rest in the flow of the now when intense thoughts and actions are > not needed. > > al. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 that's sincerity! Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > I am the identification. > > Werner > > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > > > Al, there is no however. until you want to identify yourself > > with " your ordinary daily life " ...irritations, frustration and > > worries will be there, as real as the one you think yourself to be. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > that is exactly what you are doing, aren't you? No. I don't see my ideas as an escape of my practical life, I see them as reflections of observing my life. al. > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > > > > > Al, there is no however. until you want to identify yourself > > > with " your ordinary daily life " ...irritations, frustration and > > > worries will be there, as real as the one you think yourself to be. > > > > > > > I don't think it is possible to escape one's ordinary practical life. > > I had an idea that maybe one has to become more dynamic in relation to > > life, to be intense in thoughts and action when the time is right, and > > to rest in the flow of the now when intense thoughts and actions are > > not needed. > > > > al. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 It seems unnecessarily complex to me. All thought results from desire. A detached, virtually desireless state results in thoughts arising and falling without the creation of 'thought trains' that result in conflict. This results in a state of peace. Thought, itself, is not the problem, but the belief that thought can fulfill desire. This belief must be challenged. Phil In a message dated 12/16/2005 5:17:37 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman Psychological time, thinking and emotions It is very clear that psychological time always creates a conflict between what is happening in the present moment, and what the intellect thinks/wants/don't want about the future. Even so called " positive " thoughts related to time create this conflict between the now and a perceived/expected/planned future. The inner conflict created by the intellect in relation of time is felt as two basic types of emotion: waiting and/or stress. All other negative emotions stem from this fundamental inner conflict. One spiritual practice is to observe thoughts and emotions as separate phenomena, which brings to surface the root of this inner conflict. Usually, thoughts and emotions are fused into one messy interrelated web. The purpose of separating emotions from thoughts is to resolve the inner battle agains time. Negative emotions dissolve when no longer supported by negative thoughts, and negative thoughts dissolve when not supported by negative emotions. We often believe that thinking creates emotions, or the other way around, but the two go together in a complex and messy entanglement. In this fused state inner conflict cannot be resolved. Only by rising above both the intellect and emotions can a greater perspective of one's own sense of self appear. When we sense thoughts and emotions at the same time, then we detach from our usual habitual way of thinking. Descartes: " I think, therefore I am " no longer holds true fundamentally. Instead we reach a state of: " I am, and my intellect thinks " . When we observe our emotions directly, there is no thinking involved, i.e. there is no time delay between direct sensing and mental conceptual image-making. Thinking the begins to appear as separate from emotions, and we can directly observe/sense the relation between the conceptual thinking process and emotions. We can then " feel " our thoughts, so to speak from a level above the intellect, and our thoughts can no longer dominate our sense of self. Negative thoughts are then seen as negative because there is a tremendously strong connection between the negative thoughts and the emotions that goes along, are " lit up " , by those thoughts. Without the capacity to rise above the intellect, no true inner peace can enter our being. As long as our thinking continues to generate psychological time, we will remain in a state of inner conflict, which subsequently is the cause of outer conflict. Even positive thoughts about the future are not the same as inner peace. Positive thoughts are still a way to make the living moment your enemy (causing waiting and probably almost always even stress). Not even what we call " positive stress " is the same as inner peace. All that positive stress does is that it makes the intellect occupied with things to do so that it FORGETS its sense of psychological time for the duration we are involved in the " just enough things to do " activity called positive stress. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > It seems unnecessarily complex to me. All thought results from desire. A > detached, virtually desireless state results in thoughts arising and falling > without the creation of 'thought trains' that result in conflict. This results > in a state of peace. > > Thought, itself, is not the problem, but the belief that thought can fulfill > desire. This belief must be challenged. > > Phil > It could be true that desire is the driving force for thoughts. Desire is always negative, because desire is always an enemy to the present moment. Desire always causes waiting and/or stress, what I call psychological time. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > > - > anders_lindman > Nisargadatta > Saturday, December 17, 2005 2:37 AM > Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > It seems unnecessarily complex to me. All thought results from > desire. A > > detached, virtually desireless state results in thoughts arising and > falling > > without the creation of 'thought trains' that result in conflict. > This results > > in a state of peace. > > > > Thought, itself, is not the problem, but the belief that thought can > fulfill > > desire. This belief must be challenged. > > > > Phil > > > > It could be true that desire is the driving force for thoughts. Desire > is always negative, because desire is always an enemy to the present > moment. Desire always causes waiting and/or stress, what I call > psychological time. > > al. > > > My beloved al, > > Desire is all there is. Thank on that for a few minutes. Meditate on the desire. See how it is the next moment and the next. > > I AM is desire itself. > > Ana > . When desire operates in harmony with action and being in the moment, then there is flow. But when desire creates 1001 thoughts about the future, then that will create waiting and/or stress. It seems that the intellect CANNOT desire what is now, and instead is compelled to always try to run away from the now. That's why the intellect becomes restless or bored when not occupied with some activity that makes it forget its own sense of time. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 Hey, Dumb, Don't you see, Anders, what Anna is signalling to you ? (wink, wink). Werner Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > -- In Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > > > > > - > > anders_lindman > > Nisargadatta > > Saturday, December 17, 2005 2:37 AM > > Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions > > > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > > > > It seems unnecessarily complex to me. All thought results from > > desire. A > > > detached, virtually desireless state results in thoughts arising and > > falling > > > without the creation of 'thought trains' that result in conflict. > > This results > > > in a state of peace. > > > > > > Thought, itself, is not the problem, but the belief that thought can > > fulfill > > > desire. This belief must be challenged. > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > It could be true that desire is the driving force for thoughts. Desire > > is always negative, because desire is always an enemy to the present > > moment. Desire always causes waiting and/or stress, what I call > > psychological time. > > > > al. > > > > > > My beloved al, > > > > Desire is all there is. Thank on that for a few minutes. > Meditate on the desire. See how it is the next moment and the next. > > > > I AM is desire itself. > > > > Ana > > . > > > When desire operates in harmony with action and being in the moment, > then there is flow. But when desire creates 1001 thoughts about the > future, then that will create waiting and/or stress. It seems that the > intellect CANNOT desire what is now, and instead is compelled to > always try to run away from the now. That's why the intellect becomes > restless or bored when not occupied with some activity that makes it > forget its own sense of time. > > al. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 - anders_lindman Nisargadatta Saturday, December 17, 2005 4:18 AM Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > > - > anders_lindman > Nisargadatta > Saturday, December 17, 2005 2:37 AM > Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > It seems unnecessarily complex to me. All thought results from > desire. A > > detached, virtually desireless state results in thoughts arising and > falling > > without the creation of 'thought trains' that result in conflict. > This results > > in a state of peace. > > > > Thought, itself, is not the problem, but the belief that thought can > fulfill > > desire. This belief must be challenged. > > > > Phil > > > > It could be true that desire is the driving force for thoughts. Desire > is always negative, because desire is always an enemy to the present > moment. Desire always causes waiting and/or stress, what I call > psychological time. > > al. > > > My beloved al, > > Desire is all there is. Thank on that for a few minutes. Meditate on the desire. See how it is the next moment and the next. > > I AM is desire itself. > > Ana > . When desire operates in harmony with action and being in the moment, then there is flow. But when desire creates 1001 thoughts about the future, then that will create waiting and/or stress. It seems that the intellect CANNOT desire what is now, and instead is compelled to always try to run away from the now. That's why the intellect becomes restless or bored when not occupied with some activity that makes it forget its own sense of time. al. Perhaps the natural progression of life needs to be reviewed: Life begins with desire, the desire of One to know Two, and so Soul formed from Spirit of One descends into human form and begins his/her ascent in the desire to return to One. The method is Love, the return is to Love for the sake of Love, Love moves the intellect through all feelings and senses for the experience of Two in Love with One. Ana ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 Good morning winkie winkie, The desire is to BE, the action is Love, the knowing is Peace and the resolution is Act of Love, the feeling of Bliss. Do you know bliss My Beloved Werner? The Bliss of This Is...The knowing is ever present in the now, This is the alignment of soul with body infused with spirit, the end of psychological time. thinking without feeling, emoting without awareness. winks and hugs, Ana - Werner Woehr Nisargadatta Saturday, December 17, 2005 4:47 AM Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions Hey, Dumb, Don't you see, Anders, what Anna is signalling to you ? (wink, wink). Werner Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > -- In Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > > > > > - > > anders_lindman > > Nisargadatta > > Saturday, December 17, 2005 2:37 AM > > Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions > > > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > > > > It seems unnecessarily complex to me. All thought results from > > desire. A > > > detached, virtually desireless state results in thoughts arising and > > falling > > > without the creation of 'thought trains' that result in conflict. > > This results > > > in a state of peace. > > > > > > Thought, itself, is not the problem, but the belief that thought can > > fulfill > > > desire. This belief must be challenged. > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > It could be true that desire is the driving force for thoughts. Desire > > is always negative, because desire is always an enemy to the present > > moment. Desire always causes waiting and/or stress, what I call > > psychological time. > > > > al. > > > > > > My beloved al, > > > > Desire is all there is. Thank on that for a few minutes. > Meditate on the desire. See how it is the next moment and the next. > > > > I AM is desire itself. > > > > Ana > > . > > > When desire operates in harmony with action and being in the moment, > then there is flow. But when desire creates 1001 thoughts about the > future, then that will create waiting and/or stress. It seems that the > intellect CANNOT desire what is now, and instead is compelled to > always try to run away from the now. That's why the intellect becomes > restless or bored when not occupied with some activity that makes it > forget its own sense of time. > > al. > ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 an enemy??? in which army are you fighting, al? love waaba Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > It seems unnecessarily complex to me. All thought results from > desire. A > > detached, virtually desireless state results in thoughts arising and > falling > > without the creation of 'thought trains' that result in conflict. > This results > > in a state of peace. > > > > Thought, itself, is not the problem, but the belief that thought can > fulfill > > desire. This belief must be challenged. > > > > Phil > > > > It could be true that desire is the driving force for thoughts. Desire > is always negative, because desire is always an enemy to the present > moment. Desire always causes waiting and/or stress, what I call > psychological time. > > al. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 i was referring to this : " I had an idea that maybe one has to become more dynamic in relation to life, to be intense in thoughts and action when the time is right, and to rest in the flow of the now when intense thoughts and actions are not needed. " Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > > > that is exactly what you are doing, aren't you? > > No. I don't see my ideas as an escape of my practical life, I see them > as reflections of observing my life. > > al. > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > > > > > > > Al, there is no however. until you want to identify yourself > > > > with " your ordinary daily life " ...irritations, frustration and > > > > worries will be there, as real as the one you think yourself to be. > > > > > > > > > > I don't think it is possible to escape one's ordinary practical life. > > > I had an idea that maybe one has to become more dynamic in relation to > > > life, to be intense in thoughts and action when the time is right, and > > > to rest in the flow of the now when intense thoughts and actions are > > > not needed. > > > > > > al. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > > > an enemy??? > > in which army are you fighting, al? > love waaba > It's an inner battle that I and what it seems most other people fight. Our whole modern society is a battle. Look at politics, business and media. It's a form of struggle against the present moment. " ...you are already telling yourself that you are a supreme intelligence......but it is not intelligent to suffer.....it's a lack of intelligence to suffer... " -- Vernon Howard " Most politicians and businesspeople are clever. Very few are intelligent. " -- Eckhart Tolle The enemy is the intellect that is fighting an internal separate war with itself, and that war is projected outwards into the external world. I guess only a few people really have inner peace. And when we don't even have peace within ourselves then it becomes impossible to have peace between people and in society. We have what we could call a fear-based society. We think of this society as something normal, but it really is dysfuntional. If functions ok on the external level in some places, but still there is this constant battle, inner and outer, going on. I think it is good to have the Internet, so that the battle can be exposed, or for the intellect to battle with words on a screen which could be a good theraphy for many people. Many people use internet-personas with different names than their real name, and then can take on a broader scope of roles than the confined personal self. Then we become a bit detached and free from our everyday personal self. The battle has moved into the Internet, so to speak, and that is a good thing I think, and with Internet personas people can become a little bit more open. Even so called trolls can be good (up to a certain point) as they are free to really trying to push other people's emotional buttons and thereby expose the inner conflict. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > i was referring to this : > > " I had an idea that maybe one has to become more dynamic in relation > to life, to be intense in thoughts and action when the time is right, > and to rest in the flow of the now when intense thoughts and actions > are not needed. " > Yes, the intellect has a severe form of " stuckness " - it operates from a cemented base of personal, socially conditioned and genetically inherited knowledge. The problem is that this stuckness also contains all problems in a person, which means that we carry our problems around (consciously or subconsciously) ALL THE TIME, even though we can numb ourselves by drinking alcohol or watching a good movie. Nothing wrong with alcohol or a good movie, but when such things become a means of escape from psychological time, then we could do better by taking a deeper look at our own inner conflict. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 Your point of view is all based on some concept of the present moment that i guess you have picked up from some teacher ( Tolle?). With that concept hold in consciousness Reality is missed. drop it, and see what you are. much love from your self Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > > > > > > > an enemy??? > > > > in which army are you fighting, al? > > love waaba > > > > > It's an inner battle that I and what it seems most other people fight. > Our whole modern society is a battle. Look at politics, business and > media. It's a form of struggle against the present moment. > > " ...you are already telling yourself that you are a supreme > intelligence......but it is not intelligent to suffer.....it's a lack > of intelligence to suffer... " -- Vernon Howard > > " Most politicians and businesspeople are clever. Very few are > intelligent. " -- Eckhart Tolle > > The enemy is the intellect that is fighting an internal separate war > with itself, and that war is projected outwards into the external world. > > I guess only a few people really have inner peace. And when we don't > even have peace within ourselves then it becomes impossible to have > peace between people and in society. We have what we could call a > fear-based society. We think of this society as something normal, but > it really is dysfuntional. If functions ok on the external level in > some places, but still there is this constant battle, inner and outer, > going on. > > I think it is good to have the Internet, so that the battle can be > exposed, or for the intellect to battle with words on a screen which > could be a good theraphy for many people. Many people use > internet-personas with different names than their real name, and then > can take on a broader scope of roles than the confined personal self. > Then we become a bit detached and free from our everyday personal > self. The battle has moved into the Internet, so to speak, and that is > a good thing I think, and with Internet personas people can become a > little bit more open. Even so called trolls can be good (up to a > certain point) as they are free to really trying to push other > people's emotional buttons and thereby expose the inner conflict. > > al. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > > Your point of view is all based on some concept of the present moment > that i guess you have picked up from some teacher ( Tolle?). > With that concept hold in consciousness Reality is missed. drop it, > and see what you are. > much love from your self > Tolle could be a big fraud, making money on some mixture of ancient teachings, but what he says seems to be sincere and certainly correct when we step back and look at ourselves. But I agree that we must get our own view and sense of all this " spiritual " stuff. The day I feel complete inner peace and all fear has evaporated, then I will say that these spiritual ideas are correct. Until then, I remain skeptical. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 in your own mail you have already labelled Tolle's teachings as " sincere and certainly correct " !!! so, which game are you playing al? Awakening is not about correct or not correct ideas, it is about you. Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > > > > > Your point of view is all based on some concept of the present moment > > that i guess you have picked up from some teacher ( Tolle?). > > With that concept hold in consciousness Reality is missed. drop it, > > and see what you are. > > much love from your self > > > > Tolle could be a big fraud, making money on some mixture of ancient > teachings, but what he says seems to be sincere and certainly correct > when we step back and look at ourselves. But I agree that we must get > our own view and sense of all this " spiritual " stuff. The day I feel > complete inner peace and all fear has evaporated, then I will say that > these spiritual ideas are correct. Until then, I remain skeptical. > > al. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 Anders, Your own views or those of another are still views, which is just thought. And you already are such a thought-maniac, full of mental baloney and nonsens, that it is time now to end all views. What are you without any views, concepts, assumptions, idas and beliefs ? And now you start thinking again and to offer new concepts and ideas and mental eggs what you could be, right ? Noone here is inteested in your offerings bred by your incessant mind. People here already are full with their own shit. Werner Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wroeliefste: > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > > > > > Your point of view is all based on some concept of the present moment > > that i guess you have picked up from some teacher ( Tolle?). > > With that concept hold in consciousness Reality is missed. drop it, > > and see what you are. > > much love from your self > > > > Tolle could be a big fraud, making money on some mixture of ancient > teachings, but what he says seems to be sincere and certainly correct > when we step back and look at ourselves. But I agree that we must get > our own view and sense of all this " spiritual " stuff. The day I feel > complete inner peace and all fear has evaporated, then I will say that > these spiritual ideas are correct. Until then, I remain skeptical. > > al. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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