Guest guest Report post Posted September 7, 2005 Your thinking mind is your life drama. That makes life interesting. Don't believe the crap spiritual techers tell you about " accept what is " , " dissolve your ego " and " surrender to God " . Just recognize that you can think about the thinker in you. This gives you a tremendous power. The ability to think about the thinker, we can call meta-thinking. This has nothing to do with some form of infinite regress such as: thinking about thinking about thinking..., but rather, a simple noticing that your thinking mind is just like any other type of sense like sight, hearing, touch, smell and taste. Your thinking mind may tell you how sad, boring or problematic your life is. That is ok. That is your life drama. The ability to meta-think makes you able to step above the thinker and think about the thinker instead of being trapped in the thinking mind. Let's say, for example, that you get cancer. The thinking mind is then scared and worried to death, but you as the meta-thinker can laugh at the situation because it is untouchable, it is above the ordinary thinking mind with its vast interconnected web of related emotions. The meta-thinker can use your whole life, your seriousness towards life, and your super-problematic life drama as a toy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 8, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > Hi Love, I have thought of you often. How are you and your loved ones, your little corner of the world? > > I shall send you some thoughts on singing dancing and playing this one earthly song, my Beloved. > > Anna Hi Anna! I am trying to step out of time without losing the ability to use time. The trick is to find that part in oneself that rests peacefully in the now, and jump from the " thinker " into that ocean of peace. al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 8, 2005 - anders_lindman Nisargadatta Wednesday, September 07, 2005 8:19 PM Re: How to become a meta-thinker Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > Hi Love, I have thought of you often. How are you and your loved ones, your little corner of the world? > > I shall send you some thoughts on singing dancing and playing this one earthly song, my Beloved. > > Anna Hi Anna! I am trying to step out of time without losing the ability to use time. The trick is to find that part in oneself that rests peacefully in the now, and jump from the " thinker " into that ocean of peace. al. 'you' already are, you just don't know it all the 'time' ;-) ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 8, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > - > anders_lindman > Nisargadatta > Wednesday, September 07, 2005 8:19 PM > Re: How to become a meta-thinker > > > Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > Hi Love, I have thought of you often. How are you and your loved > ones, your little corner of the world? > > > > I shall send you some thoughts on singing dancing and playing this > one earthly song, my Beloved. > > > > Anna > > > Hi Anna! > > I am trying to step out of time without losing the ability to use > time. The trick is to find that part in oneself that rests peacefully > in the now, and jump from the " thinker " into that ocean of peace. > > al. > > 'you' already are, you just don't know it all the 'time' ;-) > For me true liberation must be something that actually and practically is felt and experienced. Allow me to speculate a bit further about the concept of meta-thinking and integral thinking: Maybe integral thinking is better than meta-thinking, because meta-thinking creates a division between thought and thinking about thought. Ordinary thinking has its foundation in memories in the form of knowledge, experiences, emotional memories e t c. When consciousness gets too much absorbed in ordinary thinking, then we lose the direct contact of experienceing life; one could say that we become lost in thought. Integral thinking is to integrate our direct perception of the world, such as deeper, fuller and a more direct contact with physical senses and body awareness. Integral thinking has its foundation in the living moment, yet can still think about past and future but does not have its foundation in memory. This is similar to what Ken Wilber calls the centaur level of consciousness. Sorry if this explanation bored you to death. al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 8, 2005 - anders_lindman Nisargadatta Thursday, September 08, 2005 6:33 AM Re: How to become a meta-thinker Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > - > anders_lindman > Nisargadatta > Wednesday, September 07, 2005 8:19 PM > Re: How to become a meta-thinker > > > Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > Hi Love, I have thought of you often. How are you and your loved > ones, your little corner of the world? > > > > I shall send you some thoughts on singing dancing and playing this > one earthly song, my Beloved. > > > > Anna > > > Hi Anna! > > I am trying to step out of time without losing the ability to use > time. The trick is to find that part in oneself that rests peacefully > in the now, and jump from the " thinker " into that ocean of peace. > > al. > > 'you' already are, you just don't know it all the 'time' ;-) > For me true liberation must be something that actually and practically is felt and experienced. Allow me to speculate a bit further about the concept of meta-thinking and integral thinking: Maybe integral thinking is better than meta-thinking, because meta-thinking creates a division between thought and thinking about thought. Ordinary thinking has its foundation in memories in the form of knowledge, experiences, emotional memories e t c. When consciousness gets too much absorbed in ordinary thinking, then we lose the direct contact of experienceing life; one could say that we become lost in thought. Integral thinking is to integrate our direct perception of the world, such as deeper, fuller and a more direct contact with physical senses and body awareness. Integral thinking has its foundation in the living moment, yet can still think about past and future but does not have its foundation in memory. This is similar to what Ken Wilber calls the centaur level of consciousness. Sorry if this explanation bored you to death. al. Good morning Beloved, Integrated thinking is transcendental thinking, incorporating the known into the unknown...and visa versa. So, if premise would allow it: we transcend both the unknown (that which could be thought of by the experiences and knowledge garnered in the known) and the known (already the case in the aforementioned), and move into the unborn unknown buddha-mind. No-place like home ;-) love, Anna ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 8, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > - > anders_lindman > Nisargadatta > Thursday, September 08, 2005 6:33 AM > Re: How to become a meta-thinker > > > Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > > > - > > anders_lindman > > Nisargadatta > > Wednesday, September 07, 2005 8:19 PM > > Re: How to become a meta-thinker > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > > Hi Love, I have thought of you often. How are you and your loved > > ones, your little corner of the world? > > > > > > I shall send you some thoughts on singing dancing and playing this > > one earthly song, my Beloved. > > > > > > Anna > > > > > > Hi Anna! > > > > I am trying to step out of time without losing the ability to use > > time. The trick is to find that part in oneself that rests peacefully > > in the now, and jump from the " thinker " into that ocean of peace. > > > > al. > > > > 'you' already are, you just don't know it all the 'time' ;-) > > > > > For me true liberation must be something that actually and practically > is felt and experienced. Allow me to speculate a bit further about the > concept of meta-thinking and integral thinking: > > Maybe integral thinking is better than meta-thinking, because > meta-thinking creates a division between thought and thinking about > thought. > > Ordinary thinking has its foundation in memories in the form of > knowledge, experiences, emotional memories e t c. When consciousness > gets too much absorbed in ordinary thinking, then we lose the direct > contact of experienceing life; one could say that we become lost in > thought. > > Integral thinking is to integrate our direct perception of the world, > such as deeper, fuller and a more direct contact with physical senses > and body awareness. Integral thinking has its foundation in the living > moment, yet can still think about past and future but does not have > its foundation in memory. > > This is similar to what Ken Wilber calls the centaur level of > consciousness. > > Sorry if this explanation bored you to death. > > al. > > > Good morning Beloved, > > Integrated thinking is transcendental thinking, incorporating the known into the unknown...and visa versa. > > So, if premise would allow it: > we transcend both the unknown (that which could be thought of by the experiences and knowledge garnered > in the known) and the known (already the case in the aforementioned), and move into the unborn unknown buddha-mind. > > No-place like home ;-) > > love, > Anna > Ordinary thinking is based on the known, which exists in relation to the unknown. Transcendental thinking is, if I have understood you correctly, the blending of the known and the unknown into a direct conflictless direct perception in and of the living moment. Or something like that. :-) Bless, bless al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: >I am trying to step out of time without losing the ability to use >time. The trick is to find that part in oneself that rests peacefully >in the now, and jump from the " thinker " into that ocean of peace. > >al. Great to see you here, al... In the ocean of peace. You want to keep the ability to use time. I understand that and I feel with you. But is it not rather that we are used by time, And it has always been this way? So I guess: we can step out without problems. How can we lose something we never possessed? Time will take care of us. Inevitably. And we are free to celebrate Dance... Sing... Laugh... And rest in this Peaceful timeless moment... S. :-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 11, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@o...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > >I am trying to step out of time without losing the ability to use > >time. The trick is to find that part in oneself that rests > peacefully > >in the now, and jump from the " thinker " into that ocean of peace. > > > >al. > > Great to see you here, al... > In the ocean of peace. > > You want to keep the ability to use time. > I understand that and I feel with you. > > But is it not rather that we are used by time, > And it has always been this way? > > So I guess: we can step out without problems. > How can we lose something we never possessed? > > Time will take care of us. Inevitably. > > And we are free to celebrate > Dance... Sing... Laugh... > And rest in this > Peaceful timeless moment... > > S. :-) Hi Stefan, My ideas about meta-thinking is that it would make us able to step away from psychological time. A bit speculative I admit, but maybe not impossible. In ordinary thinking, time is extremely important, almost its whole foundation. Meta-thinking would be the ability to step out of ordinary thinking, a state where psychological time still can be used, but is not compulsory. al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 12, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@o...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > >I am trying to step out of time without losing the ability to use > > >time. The trick is to find that part in oneself that rests > > peacefully > > >in the now, and jump from the " thinker " into that ocean of peace. > > > > > >al. > > > > Great to see you here, al... > > In the ocean of peace. > > > > You want to keep the ability to use time. > > I understand that and I feel with you. > > > > But is it not rather that we are used by time, > > And it has always been this way? > > > > So I guess: we can step out without problems. > > How can we lose something we never possessed? > > > > Time will take care of us. Inevitably. > > > > And we are free to celebrate > > Dance... Sing... Laugh... > > And rest in this > > Peaceful timeless moment... > > > > S. :-) > > > Hi Stefan, > > My ideas about meta-thinking is that it would make us able to step > away from psychological time. A bit speculative I admit, but maybe not > impossible. In ordinary thinking, time is extremely important, almost > its whole foundation. Meta-thinking would be the ability to step out > of ordinary thinking, a state where psychological time still can be > used, but is not compulsory. > > al. Namaste al., interesting this talk about " meta thinking " .... you write about time.... what would happen if there were no time..... maybe everything would happen at same time....means, what happened in the past...and will happen in the future is only different " forms " comaring with each.... different forms " of the same material " ..... the material itself don't change.....only the appearence of it.....depending on the time factor... so...without time factor......nothing realy happened in the past....comparing with now....and the future..... everything related to time....like birth and death.....is the appearence only....of the changeless reality... you talk about to " step out of ordinary thinking " (time)....i believe that " we " are already That.....timeless being...... and That timeless being is it...what don't let us completely step-in in the fiction of time related body-mind-intellect the ego-mind try hard to keep being in this fiction of being.... and invent many theories and arguments to just Be what we already Are...... sure...can be an interesting " time-game " ....a " life-play " ..... acting as actors in a self-created movie....... in reality....maybe there is no movie....no actors.... there is maybe only being just being wish you a good day....in the Love that we are.... Regards Marc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 12, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@o...> > wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > >I am trying to step out of time without losing the ability to use > > > >time. The trick is to find that part in oneself that rests > > > peacefully > > > >in the now, and jump from the " thinker " into that ocean of peace. > > > > > > > >al. > > > > > > Great to see you here, al... > > > In the ocean of peace. > > > > > > You want to keep the ability to use time. > > > I understand that and I feel with you. > > > > > > But is it not rather that we are used by time, > > > And it has always been this way? > > > > > > So I guess: we can step out without problems. > > > How can we lose something we never possessed? > > > > > > Time will take care of us. Inevitably. > > > > > > And we are free to celebrate > > > Dance... Sing... Laugh... > > > And rest in this > > > Peaceful timeless moment... > > > > > > S. :-) > > > > > > Hi Stefan, > > > > My ideas about meta-thinking is that it would make us able to step > > away from psychological time. A bit speculative I admit, but maybe > not > > impossible. In ordinary thinking, time is extremely important, > almost > > its whole foundation. Meta-thinking would be the ability to step out > > of ordinary thinking, a state where psychological time still can be > > used, but is not compulsory. > > > > al. > > Namaste al., > > interesting this talk about " meta thinking " .... > > you write about time.... > > what would happen if there were no time..... > > maybe everything would happen at same time....means, what happened in > the past...and will happen in the future is only different " forms " > comaring with each.... > different forms " of the same material " ..... > > the material itself don't change.....only the appearence of > it.....depending on the time factor... > > so...without time factor......nothing realy happened in the > past....comparing with now....and the future..... > > everything related to time....like birth and death.....is the > appearence only....of the changeless reality... > > you talk about to " step out of ordinary thinking " (time)....i believe > that " we " are already That.....timeless being...... > and That timeless being is it...what don't let us completely step-in > in the fiction of time related body-mind-intellect > > the ego-mind try hard to keep being in this fiction of being.... > and invent many theories and arguments to just Be what we already > Are...... > > sure...can be an interesting " time-game " ....a " life-play " ..... > acting as actors in a self-created movie....... > > in reality....maybe there is no movie....no actors.... > > there is maybe only being > > just being > > wish you a good day....in the Love that we are.... > > Regards > > Marc Hi Marc, One problem is that our ordinary thinking has problem connecting to only being. It's almost as if the purpose of the thinking mind is to NOT be able to rest firmly in the now. When the thinking mind is reminded of the present moment then it discovers it, but otherwise it is constanly thinking about past and future, or in some other way lost in an inner thought-world. Meta-thinking could be seen as a flip, a reversal of how we experience ourselves and the world. Instead of only be aware of the now when reminded, we could perhaps get to a state where we only become aware of time when reminded, or rather, to be able to rest peacefully in the now and chose when we want to think about past and future. In our ordinary state of thinking we most of the time have no other choice than to be dragged along by thoughts and feelings about past and future. al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 12, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@o...> > > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > >I am trying to step out of time without losing the ability to use > > > > >time. The trick is to find that part in oneself that rests > > > > peacefully > > > > >in the now, and jump from the " thinker " into that ocean of peace. > > > > > > > > > >al. > > > > > > > > Great to see you here, al... > > > > In the ocean of peace. > > > > > > > > You want to keep the ability to use time. > > > > I understand that and I feel with you. > > > > > > > > But is it not rather that we are used by time, > > > > And it has always been this way? > > > > > > > > So I guess: we can step out without problems. > > > > How can we lose something we never possessed? > > > > > > > > Time will take care of us. Inevitably. > > > > > > > > And we are free to celebrate > > > > Dance... Sing... Laugh... > > > > And rest in this > > > > Peaceful timeless moment... > > > > > > > > S. :-) > > > > > > > > > Hi Stefan, > > > > > > My ideas about meta-thinking is that it would make us able to step > > > away from psychological time. A bit speculative I admit, but maybe > > not > > > impossible. In ordinary thinking, time is extremely important, > > almost > > > its whole foundation. Meta-thinking would be the ability to step out > > > of ordinary thinking, a state where psychological time still can be > > > used, but is not compulsory. > > > > > > al. > > > > Namaste al., > > > > interesting this talk about " meta thinking " .... > > > > you write about time.... > > > > what would happen if there were no time..... > > > > maybe everything would happen at same time....means, what happened in > > the past...and will happen in the future is only different " forms " > > comaring with each.... > > different forms " of the same material " ..... > > > > the material itself don't change.....only the appearence of > > it.....depending on the time factor... > > > > so...without time factor......nothing realy happened in the > > past....comparing with now....and the future..... > > > > everything related to time....like birth and death.....is the > > appearence only....of the changeless reality... > > > > you talk about to " step out of ordinary thinking " (time)....i believe > > that " we " are already That.....timeless being...... > > and That timeless being is it...what don't let us completely step- in > > in the fiction of time related body-mind-intellect > > > > the ego-mind try hard to keep being in this fiction of being.... > > and invent many theories and arguments to just Be what we already > > Are...... > > > > sure...can be an interesting " time-game " ....a " life-play " ..... > > acting as actors in a self-created movie....... > > > > in reality....maybe there is no movie....no actors.... > > > > there is maybe only being > > > > just being > > > > wish you a good day....in the Love that we are.... > > > > Regards > > > > Marc > > > Hi Marc, > > One problem is that our ordinary thinking has problem connecting to > only being. It's almost as if the purpose of the thinking mind is to > NOT be able to rest firmly in the now. When the thinking mind is > reminded of the present moment then it discovers it, but otherwise it > is constanly thinking about past and future, or in some other way lost > in an inner thought-world. Meta-thinking could be seen as a flip, a > reversal of how we experience ourselves and the world. Instead of only > be aware of the now when reminded, we could perhaps get to a state > where we only become aware of time when reminded, or rather, to be > able to rest peacefully in the now and chose when we want to think > about past and future. In our ordinary state of thinking we most of > the time have no other choice than to be dragged along by thoughts and > feelings about past and future. > > al. Hi al., ok....Meta-Thinking seem to be a good technique to get better control of the thoughts....means, of mind.... maybe better awareness of (and when) being in mind....or outside (outside time and space).... but what is in your opinion the different between Meta-Thinking and Meditation?... Regards Marc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 13, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: >Hi Stefan, > >My ideas about meta-thinking is that it would make us able to step >away from psychological time.A bit speculative I admit,but maybe not >impossible. In ordinary thinking, time is extremely important, almost >its whole foundation. Meta-thinking would be the ability to step out >of ordinary thinking, a state where psychological time still can be >used, but is not compulsory. Thank you, Al. And when you " jump into that ocean of peace " There is no special ability required. The jump happens when the time is ripe. Like a ripe fruit that falls from the tree Simply falls because it is ready. Time and ordinary thinking are taking care As they always did And without any need to interfere You can swim in that ocean Whilst the world is still going round and round. Love S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 13, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " > <s.petersilge@o...> > > > wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >I am trying to step out of time without losing the ability > to use > > > > > >time. The trick is to find that part in oneself that rests > > > > > peacefully > > > > > >in the now, and jump from the " thinker " into that ocean of > peace. > > > > > > > > > > > >al. > > > > > > > > > > Great to see you here, al... > > > > > In the ocean of peace. > > > > > > > > > > You want to keep the ability to use time. > > > > > I understand that and I feel with you. > > > > > > > > > > But is it not rather that we are used by time, > > > > > And it has always been this way? > > > > > > > > > > So I guess: we can step out without problems. > > > > > How can we lose something we never possessed? > > > > > > > > > > Time will take care of us. Inevitably. > > > > > > > > > > And we are free to celebrate > > > > > Dance... Sing... Laugh... > > > > > And rest in this > > > > > Peaceful timeless moment... > > > > > > > > > > S. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Stefan, > > > > > > > > My ideas about meta-thinking is that it would make us able to > step > > > > away from psychological time. A bit speculative I admit, but > maybe > > > not > > > > impossible. In ordinary thinking, time is extremely important, > > > almost > > > > its whole foundation. Meta-thinking would be the ability to > step out > > > > of ordinary thinking, a state where psychological time still > can be > > > > used, but is not compulsory. > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > Namaste al., > > > > > > interesting this talk about " meta thinking " .... > > > > > > you write about time.... > > > > > > what would happen if there were no time..... > > > > > > maybe everything would happen at same time....means, what > happened in > > > the past...and will happen in the future is only > different " forms " > > > comaring with each.... > > > different forms " of the same material " ..... > > > > > > the material itself don't change.....only the appearence of > > > it.....depending on the time factor... > > > > > > so...without time factor......nothing realy happened in the > > > past....comparing with now....and the future..... > > > > > > everything related to time....like birth and death.....is the > > > appearence only....of the changeless reality... > > > > > > you talk about to " step out of ordinary thinking " (time)....i > believe > > > that " we " are already That.....timeless being...... > > > and That timeless being is it...what don't let us completely step- > in > > > in the fiction of time related body-mind-intellect > > > > > > the ego-mind try hard to keep being in this fiction of being.... > > > and invent many theories and arguments to just Be what we already > > > Are...... > > > > > > sure...can be an interesting " time-game " ....a " life-play " ..... > > > acting as actors in a self-created movie....... > > > > > > in reality....maybe there is no movie....no actors.... > > > > > > there is maybe only being > > > > > > just being > > > > > > wish you a good day....in the Love that we are.... > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > Hi Marc, > > > > One problem is that our ordinary thinking has problem connecting to > > only being. It's almost as if the purpose of the thinking mind is to > > NOT be able to rest firmly in the now. When the thinking mind is > > reminded of the present moment then it discovers it, but otherwise > it > > is constanly thinking about past and future, or in some other way > lost > > in an inner thought-world. Meta-thinking could be seen as a flip, a > > reversal of how we experience ourselves and the world. Instead of > only > > be aware of the now when reminded, we could perhaps get to a state > > where we only become aware of time when reminded, or rather, to be > > able to rest peacefully in the now and chose when we want to think > > about past and future. In our ordinary state of thinking we most of > > the time have no other choice than to be dragged along by thoughts > and > > feelings about past and future. > > > > al. > > Hi al., > > ok....Meta-Thinking seem to be a good technique to get better control > of the thoughts....means, of mind.... > maybe better awareness of (and when) being in mind....or outside > (outside time and space).... > > but what is in your opinion the different between Meta-Thinking and > Meditation?... > > Regards > > Marc If we see meditation as observation of thoughts and emotions and going into a state of stillness, then that would probably be a step in the direction of meta-thinking. But what happens after a person has meditated and is back in a busy work environment, for example? Then ordinary thinking kicks in, and we lose the ability to rest peacefully in the moment. J. Krishnamurti talked about meditation as a permanent state, and that is probably more in line with meta-thinking. I don't know if meta-thinking is possible, but I imagine such state being the ability to think about past and future without attachment to those thoughts. In ordinary thinking the whole sense of a personal self is dragged along with the thoughts and emotions about the future (and past). In ordinary thinking, the sense of self is attached and inseparable from the stream of thought. When we worry about the future then the whole " me " is worried. In meta-thinking the " me " would remain in the now and thoughts about the future would still be a part of that " me " but would only be thoughts within the " me " /self. In ordinary thinking we can tell the difference between imagination and thoughts about reality. But what we cannot do in ordinary thinking is to detach our selves from the thoughts about reality. In ordinary thinking, our thoughts about reality is experienced as being the same as our reality. So meta-thinking would be yet another level of abstraction. In a state of meta-thinking we can see that ordinary thinking is only thoughts ABOUT reality. For example, in ordinary thinking when we think about something we will do in the future, such as going to the doctor tomorrow, then the experience is that the " me " is going to see a doctor tomorrow. In meta-thinking the " me " is not going anywhere, and the thought about " me going to the doctor tomorrow " is only a thought. al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 13, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@o...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > >Hi Stefan, > > > >My ideas about meta-thinking is that it would make us able to step > >away from psychological time.A bit speculative I admit,but maybe not > >impossible. In ordinary thinking, time is extremely important, almost > >its whole foundation. Meta-thinking would be the ability to step out > >of ordinary thinking, a state where psychological time still can be > >used, but is not compulsory. > > Thank you, Al. > > And when you " jump into that ocean of peace " > There is no special ability required. > > The jump happens when the time is ripe. > Like a ripe fruit that falls from the tree > Simply falls because it is ready. > > Time and ordinary thinking are taking care > As they always did > And without any need to interfere > You can swim in that ocean > Whilst the world is still going round and round. > > Love > S. That is probably correct. But something in me wants to understand why and how that peaceful state can be realized. If I learn how the whole process of ordinary thinking operates, then I imagine that I can go beyond it. al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 13, 2005 - anders_lindman Nisargadatta Tuesday, September 13, 2005 5:35 AM Re: How to become a meta-thinker Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@o...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > >Hi Stefan, > > > >My ideas about meta-thinking is that it would make us able to step > >away from psychological time.A bit speculative I admit,but maybe not > >impossible. In ordinary thinking, time is extremely important, almost > >its whole foundation. Meta-thinking would be the ability to step out > >of ordinary thinking, a state where psychological time still can be > >used, but is not compulsory. > > Thank you, Al. > > And when you " jump into that ocean of peace " > There is no special ability required. > > The jump happens when the time is ripe. > Like a ripe fruit that falls from the tree > Simply falls because it is ready. > > Time and ordinary thinking are taking care > As they always did > And without any need to interfere > You can swim in that ocean > Whilst the world is still going round and round. > > Love > S. That is probably correct. But something in me wants to understand why and how that peaceful state can be realized. If I learn how the whole process of ordinary thinking operates, then I imagine that I can go beyond it. al. Hi again Al, All THIS including our seeming separate senses of 'al' and 'anna' originate and have their Being from/with/as the Unknown Unborn Buddha-Mind. Total Peace. It is quite natural to have a desire to return to that original state of 'Being' And thus begins the conscious journey from thinking to being beyond thinking, Being the Peace that/who once was 'saught'. AFAIK. Love and Peace. Anna ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 13, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > - > anders_lindman .... > > > Good morning al, > > I would say this: metta thinking is all about Being, > > Being all the levels of thought, > (using all faculties of perception especially the senses) > simultaneously and knowing exactly, precisely who thinks, > what thinking is and how thinking is thought... IMHO. > > ar > Good morning, Anna Yup, thought is in Being. al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 13, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > - > anders_lindman > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, September 13, 2005 5:35 AM > Re: How to become a meta-thinker > > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@o...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > >Hi Stefan, > > > > > >My ideas about meta-thinking is that it would make us able to step > > >away from psychological time.A bit speculative I admit,but maybe not > > >impossible. In ordinary thinking, time is extremely important, almost > > >its whole foundation. Meta-thinking would be the ability to step out > > >of ordinary thinking, a state where psychological time still can be > > >used, but is not compulsory. > > > > Thank you, Al. > > > > And when you " jump into that ocean of peace " > > There is no special ability required. > > > > The jump happens when the time is ripe. > > Like a ripe fruit that falls from the tree > > Simply falls because it is ready. > > > > Time and ordinary thinking are taking care > > As they always did > > And without any need to interfere > > You can swim in that ocean > > Whilst the world is still going round and round. > > > > Love > > S. > > > That is probably correct. But something in me wants to understand why > and how that peaceful state can be realized. If I learn how the whole > process of ordinary thinking operates, then I imagine that I can go > beyond it. > > al. > > > > Hi again Al, > > All THIS including our seeming separate senses of 'al' and 'anna' originate and have their Being > from/with/as the Unknown Unborn Buddha-Mind. Total Peace. > > It is quite natural to have a desire to return to that original state of 'Being' And thus begins the > conscious journey from thinking to being beyond thinking, Being the Peace that/who once was 'saught'. > > AFAIK. > > Love and Peace. > Anna > > At first desire is driving thought, then there comes the desire to transcend thought. And that desire must be about going in the direction into the now, while ordinary desire is trying to get away from the now. al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 13, 2005 - anders_lindman Nisargadatta Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:36 AM Re: How to become a meta-thinker Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > - > anders_lindman ... > > > Good morning al, > > I would say this: metta thinking is all about Being, > > Being all the levels of thought, > (using all faculties of perception especially the senses) > simultaneously and knowing exactly, precisely who thinks, > what thinking is and how thinking is thought... IMHO. > > ar > Good morning, Anna Yup, thought is in Being. al. Hi Beloved, thought thinks being being thinks thought yet being is solid thinking.... rock solid feather light hmmmm Blissfully thinking 'al' and 'anna' ;-) ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 13, 2005 - anders_lindman Nisargadatta Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:40 AM Re: How to become a meta-thinker Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > - > anders_lindman > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, September 13, 2005 5:35 AM > Re: How to become a meta-thinker > > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@o...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > >Hi Stefan, > > > > > >My ideas about meta-thinking is that it would make us able to step > > >away from psychological time.A bit speculative I admit,but maybe not > > >impossible. In ordinary thinking, time is extremely important, almost > > >its whole foundation. Meta-thinking would be the ability to step out > > >of ordinary thinking, a state where psychological time still can be > > >used, but is not compulsory. > > > > Thank you, Al. > > > > And when you " jump into that ocean of peace " > > There is no special ability required. > > > > The jump happens when the time is ripe. > > Like a ripe fruit that falls from the tree > > Simply falls because it is ready. > > > > Time and ordinary thinking are taking care > > As they always did > > And without any need to interfere > > You can swim in that ocean > > Whilst the world is still going round and round. > > > > Love > > S. > > > That is probably correct. But something in me wants to understand why > and how that peaceful state can be realized. If I learn how the whole > process of ordinary thinking operates, then I imagine that I can go > beyond it. > > al. > > > > Hi again Al, > > All THIS including our seeming separate senses of 'al' and 'anna' originate and have their Being > from/with/as the Unknown Unborn Buddha-Mind. Total Peace. > > It is quite natural to have a desire to return to that original state of 'Being' And thus begins the > conscious journey from thinking to being beyond thinking, Being the Peace that/who once was 'saught'. > > AFAIK. > > Love and Peace. > Anna > > At first desire is driving thought, then there comes the desire to transcend thought. And that desire must be about going in the direction into the now, while ordinary desire is trying to get away from the now. al. So, peace can only be found now? Not when and then? ah, so... love is peace, peace is love, Be-ing This Bliss called Is, ah, so. ar ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 13, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " > > <s.petersilge@o...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >I am trying to step out of time without losing the ability > > to use > > > > > > >time. The trick is to find that part in oneself that rests > > > > > > peacefully > > > > > > >in the now, and jump from the " thinker " into that ocean of > > peace. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >al. > > > > > > > > > > > > Great to see you here, al... > > > > > > In the ocean of peace. > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to keep the ability to use time. > > > > > > I understand that and I feel with you. > > > > > > > > > > > > But is it not rather that we are used by time, > > > > > > And it has always been this way? > > > > > > > > > > > > So I guess: we can step out without problems. > > > > > > How can we lose something we never possessed? > > > > > > > > > > > > Time will take care of us. Inevitably. > > > > > > > > > > > > And we are free to celebrate > > > > > > Dance... Sing... Laugh... > > > > > > And rest in this > > > > > > Peaceful timeless moment... > > > > > > > > > > > > S. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Stefan, > > > > > > > > > > My ideas about meta-thinking is that it would make us able to > > step > > > > > away from psychological time. A bit speculative I admit, but > > maybe > > > > not > > > > > impossible. In ordinary thinking, time is extremely important, > > > > almost > > > > > its whole foundation. Meta-thinking would be the ability to > > step out > > > > > of ordinary thinking, a state where psychological time still > > can be > > > > > used, but is not compulsory. > > > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > Namaste al., > > > > > > > > interesting this talk about " meta thinking " .... > > > > > > > > you write about time.... > > > > > > > > what would happen if there were no time..... > > > > > > > > maybe everything would happen at same time....means, what > > happened in > > > > the past...and will happen in the future is only > > different " forms " > > > > comaring with each.... > > > > different forms " of the same material " ..... > > > > > > > > the material itself don't change.....only the appearence of > > > > it.....depending on the time factor... > > > > > > > > so...without time factor......nothing realy happened in the > > > > past....comparing with now....and the future..... > > > > > > > > everything related to time....like birth and death.....is the > > > > appearence only....of the changeless reality... > > > > > > > > you talk about to " step out of ordinary thinking " (time)....i > > believe > > > > that " we " are already That.....timeless being...... > > > > and That timeless being is it...what don't let us completely step- > > in > > > > in the fiction of time related body-mind-intellect > > > > > > > > the ego-mind try hard to keep being in this fiction of being.... > > > > and invent many theories and arguments to just Be what we already > > > > Are...... > > > > > > > > sure...can be an interesting " time-game " ....a " life-play " ..... > > > > acting as actors in a self-created movie....... > > > > > > > > in reality....maybe there is no movie....no actors.... > > > > > > > > there is maybe only being > > > > > > > > just being > > > > > > > > wish you a good day....in the Love that we are.... > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > Hi Marc, > > > > > > One problem is that our ordinary thinking has problem connecting to > > > only being. It's almost as if the purpose of the thinking mind is to > > > NOT be able to rest firmly in the now. When the thinking mind is > > > reminded of the present moment then it discovers it, but otherwise > > it > > > is constanly thinking about past and future, or in some other way > > lost > > > in an inner thought-world. Meta-thinking could be seen as a flip, a > > > reversal of how we experience ourselves and the world. Instead of > > only > > > be aware of the now when reminded, we could perhaps get to a state > > > where we only become aware of time when reminded, or rather, to be > > > able to rest peacefully in the now and chose when we want to think > > > about past and future. In our ordinary state of thinking we most of > > > the time have no other choice than to be dragged along by thoughts > > and > > > feelings about past and future. > > > > > > al. > > > > Hi al., > > > > ok....Meta-Thinking seem to be a good technique to get better control > > of the thoughts....means, of mind.... > > maybe better awareness of (and when) being in mind....or outside > > (outside time and space).... > > > > but what is in your opinion the different between Meta-Thinking and > > Meditation?... > > > > Regards > > > > Marc > > > If we see meditation as observation of thoughts and emotions and going > into a state of stillness, then that would probably be a step in the > direction of meta-thinking. But what happens after a person has > meditated and is back in a busy work environment, for example? Then > ordinary thinking kicks in, and we lose the ability to rest peacefully > in the moment. J. Krishnamurti talked about meditation as a permanent > state, and that is probably more in line with meta-thinking. > > I don't know if meta-thinking is possible, but I imagine such state > being the ability to think about past and future without attachment to > those thoughts. In ordinary thinking the whole sense of a personal > self is dragged along with the thoughts and emotions about the future > (and past). In ordinary thinking, the sense of self is attached and > inseparable from the stream of thought. When we worry about the future > then the whole " me " is worried. > > In meta-thinking the " me " would remain in the now and thoughts about > the future would still be a part of that " me " but would only be > thoughts within the " me " /self. In ordinary thinking we can tell the > difference between imagination and thoughts about reality. But what we > cannot do in ordinary thinking is to detach our selves from the > thoughts about reality. In ordinary thinking, our thoughts about > reality is experienced as being the same as our reality. > > So meta-thinking would be yet another level of abstraction. In a state > of meta-thinking we can see that ordinary thinking is only thoughts > ABOUT reality. For example, in ordinary thinking when we think about > something we will do in the future, such as going to the doctor > tomorrow, then the experience is that the " me " is going to see a > doctor tomorrow. In meta-thinking the " me " is not going anywhere, and > the thought about " me going to the doctor tomorrow " is only a thought. > > al. Hello al., meditation is, as far i know, leaving body sense....means,entering in real being.... it's normal that it's impossible to stay in this kind of being....after the first (experienced) meditation.... I think that many Masters " practiced " meditation for long years......and reached finally the real being......permanently.... to stay constantly in this state of being.....in meditation..... does not mean that one has no more " consciousness " about the body sense existing in this life-dream....in order to continue to have just a normal life......without attachments to the illusion of being this (fiction of) body mind intellect... but the constantly stay of this state of being..... (meditation).....is the sign of " realization or liberation or...whatever the exact term of It " then....when the meditation state is constantly present.....when it take only few breath...to reenter again and again to this state..... then there is the perception of no more being the " doer " ....because the seperation to the infinite (Brahman) has gone.... i think that the meditation is indead no easy to enter in..... and without inner love to.....That....the formless and infinite Brahman...the Self........it even make not much sense to try meditation..... and if so....there is, like you are told, ....there is a " seperation " of the time during meditation....and the time " after " i don't see the big difference of the meditation state ....and the described Meta-Thinking.... except...that for meditation, definitly, it's necessary to " put away " (give away) the body mind intellect......to enter in real being.... Regards Marc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 13, 2005 - dennis_travis33 Nisargadatta Tuesday, September 13, 2005 8:57 AM Re: How to become a meta-thinker Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " > > <s.petersilge@o...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >I am trying to step out of time without losing the ability > > to use > > > > > > >time. The trick is to find that part in oneself that rests > > > > > > peacefully > > > > > > >in the now, and jump from the " thinker " into that ocean of > > peace. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >al. > > > > > > > > > > > > Great to see you here, al... > > > > > > In the ocean of peace. > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to keep the ability to use time. > > > > > > I understand that and I feel with you. > > > > > > > > > > > > But is it not rather that we are used by time, > > > > > > And it has always been this way? > > > > > > > > > > > > So I guess: we can step out without problems. > > > > > > How can we lose something we never possessed? > > > > > > > > > > > > Time will take care of us. Inevitably. > > > > > > > > > > > > And we are free to celebrate > > > > > > Dance... Sing... Laugh... > > > > > > And rest in this > > > > > > Peaceful timeless moment... > > > > > > > > > > > > S. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Stefan, > > > > > > > > > > My ideas about meta-thinking is that it would make us able to > > step > > > > > away from psychological time. A bit speculative I admit, but > > maybe > > > > not > > > > > impossible. In ordinary thinking, time is extremely important, > > > > almost > > > > > its whole foundation. Meta-thinking would be the ability to > > step out > > > > > of ordinary thinking, a state where psychological time still > > can be > > > > > used, but is not compulsory. > > > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > Namaste al., > > > > > > > > interesting this talk about " meta thinking " .... > > > > > > > > you write about time.... > > > > > > > > what would happen if there were no time..... > > > > > > > > maybe everything would happen at same time....means, what > > happened in > > > > the past...and will happen in the future is only > > different " forms " > > > > comaring with each.... > > > > different forms " of the same material " ..... > > > > > > > > the material itself don't change.....only the appearence of > > > > it.....depending on the time factor... > > > > > > > > so...without time factor......nothing realy happened in the > > > > past....comparing with now....and the future..... > > > > > > > > everything related to time....like birth and death.....is the > > > > appearence only....of the changeless reality... > > > > > > > > you talk about to " step out of ordinary thinking " (time)....i > > believe > > > > that " we " are already That.....timeless being...... > > > > and That timeless being is it...what don't let us completely step- > > in > > > > in the fiction of time related body-mind-intellect > > > > > > > > the ego-mind try hard to keep being in this fiction of being.... > > > > and invent many theories and arguments to just Be what we already > > > > Are...... > > > > > > > > sure...can be an interesting " time-game " ....a " life-play " ..... > > > > acting as actors in a self-created movie....... > > > > > > > > in reality....maybe there is no movie....no actors.... > > > > > > > > there is maybe only being > > > > > > > > just being > > > > > > > > wish you a good day....in the Love that we are.... > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > Hi Marc, > > > > > > One problem is that our ordinary thinking has problem connecting to > > > only being. It's almost as if the purpose of the thinking mind is to > > > NOT be able to rest firmly in the now. When the thinking mind is > > > reminded of the present moment then it discovers it, but otherwise > > it > > > is constanly thinking about past and future, or in some other way > > lost > > > in an inner thought-world. Meta-thinking could be seen as a flip, a > > > reversal of how we experience ourselves and the world. Instead of > > only > > > be aware of the now when reminded, we could perhaps get to a state > > > where we only become aware of time when reminded, or rather, to be > > > able to rest peacefully in the now and chose when we want to think > > > about past and future. In our ordinary state of thinking we most of > > > the time have no other choice than to be dragged along by thoughts > > and > > > feelings about past and future. > > > > > > al. > > > > Hi al., > > > > ok....Meta-Thinking seem to be a good technique to get better control > > of the thoughts....means, of mind.... > > maybe better awareness of (and when) being in mind....or outside > > (outside time and space).... > > > > but what is in your opinion the different between Meta-Thinking and > > Meditation?... > > > > Regards > > > > Marc > > > If we see meditation as observation of thoughts and emotions and going > into a state of stillness, then that would probably be a step in the > direction of meta-thinking. But what happens after a person has > meditated and is back in a busy work environment, for example? Then > ordinary thinking kicks in, and we lose the ability to rest peacefully > in the moment. J. Krishnamurti talked about meditation as a permanent > state, and that is probably more in line with meta-thinking. > > I don't know if meta-thinking is possible, but I imagine such state > being the ability to think about past and future without attachment to > those thoughts. In ordinary thinking the whole sense of a personal > self is dragged along with the thoughts and emotions about the future > (and past). In ordinary thinking, the sense of self is attached and > inseparable from the stream of thought. When we worry about the future > then the whole " me " is worried. > > In meta-thinking the " me " would remain in the now and thoughts about > the future would still be a part of that " me " but would only be > thoughts within the " me " /self. In ordinary thinking we can tell the > difference between imagination and thoughts about reality. But what we > cannot do in ordinary thinking is to detach our selves from the > thoughts about reality. In ordinary thinking, our thoughts about > reality is experienced as being the same as our reality. > > So meta-thinking would be yet another level of abstraction. In a state > of meta-thinking we can see that ordinary thinking is only thoughts > ABOUT reality. For example, in ordinary thinking when we think about > something we will do in the future, such as going to the doctor > tomorrow, then the experience is that the " me " is going to see a > doctor tomorrow. In meta-thinking the " me " is not going anywhere, and > the thought about " me going to the doctor tomorrow " is only a thought. > > al. Hello al., meditation is, as far i know, leaving body sense....means,entering in real being.... it's normal that it's impossible to stay in this kind of being....after the first (experienced) meditation.... I think that many Masters " practiced " meditation for long years......and reached finally the real being......permanently.... to stay constantly in this state of being.....in meditation..... does not mean that one has no more " consciousness " about the body sense existing in this life-dream....in order to continue to have just a normal life......without attachments to the illusion of being this (fiction of) body mind intellect... but the constantly stay of this state of being..... (meditation).....is the sign of " realization or liberation or...whatever the exact term of It " then....when the meditation state is constantly present.....when it take only few breath...to reenter again and again to this state..... then there is the perception of no more being the " doer " ....because the seperation to the infinite (Brahman) has gone.... i think that the meditation is indead no easy to enter in..... and without inner love to.....That....the formless and infinite Brahman...the Self........it even make not much sense to try meditation..... and if so....there is, like you are told, ....there is a " seperation " of the time during meditation....and the time " after " i don't see the big difference of the meditation state ....and the described Meta-Thinking.... except...that for meditation, definitly, it's necessary to " put away " (give away) the body mind intellect......to enter in real being.... Regards Marc I would say this Marc: In meditation there is no separation between I Am and This. Being One-Same-One Being This I Am This IS Love and Peace, ar ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 13, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > - > dennis_travis33 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, September 13, 2005 8:57 AM > Re: How to become a meta-thinker > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " > > > <s.petersilge@o...> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I am trying to step out of time without losing the > ability > > > to use > > > > > > > >time. The trick is to find that part in oneself that > rests > > > > > > > peacefully > > > > > > > >in the now, and jump from the " thinker " into that ocean > of > > > peace. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >al. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Great to see you here, al... > > > > > > > In the ocean of peace. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to keep the ability to use time. > > > > > > > I understand that and I feel with you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But is it not rather that we are used by time, > > > > > > > And it has always been this way? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So I guess: we can step out without problems. > > > > > > > How can we lose something we never possessed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Time will take care of us. Inevitably. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And we are free to celebrate > > > > > > > Dance... Sing... Laugh... > > > > > > > And rest in this > > > > > > > Peaceful timeless moment... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > S. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Stefan, > > > > > > > > > > > > My ideas about meta-thinking is that it would make us able > to > > > step > > > > > > away from psychological time. A bit speculative I admit, > but > > > maybe > > > > > not > > > > > > impossible. In ordinary thinking, time is extremely > important, > > > > > almost > > > > > > its whole foundation. Meta-thinking would be the ability to > > > step out > > > > > > of ordinary thinking, a state where psychological time > still > > > can be > > > > > > used, but is not compulsory. > > > > > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > Namaste al., > > > > > > > > > > interesting this talk about " meta thinking " .... > > > > > > > > > > you write about time.... > > > > > > > > > > what would happen if there were no time..... > > > > > > > > > > maybe everything would happen at same time....means, what > > > happened in > > > > > the past...and will happen in the future is only > > > different " forms " > > > > > comaring with each.... > > > > > different forms " of the same material " ..... > > > > > > > > > > the material itself don't change.....only the appearence of > > > > > it.....depending on the time factor... > > > > > > > > > > so...without time factor......nothing realy happened in the > > > > > past....comparing with now....and the future..... > > > > > > > > > > everything related to time....like birth and death.....is the > > > > > appearence only....of the changeless reality... > > > > > > > > > > you talk about to " step out of ordinary thinking " (time)....i > > > believe > > > > > that " we " are already That.....timeless being...... > > > > > and That timeless being is it...what don't let us completely > step- > > > in > > > > > in the fiction of time related body-mind-intellect > > > > > > > > > > the ego-mind try hard to keep being in this fiction of > being.... > > > > > and invent many theories and arguments to just Be what we > already > > > > > Are...... > > > > > > > > > > sure...can be an interesting " time-game " ....a " life- play " ..... > > > > > acting as actors in a self-created movie....... > > > > > > > > > > in reality....maybe there is no movie....no actors.... > > > > > > > > > > there is maybe only being > > > > > > > > > > just being > > > > > > > > > > wish you a good day....in the Love that we are.... > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Marc, > > > > > > > > One problem is that our ordinary thinking has problem > connecting to > > > > only being. It's almost as if the purpose of the thinking mind > is to > > > > NOT be able to rest firmly in the now. When the thinking mind is > > > > reminded of the present moment then it discovers it, but > otherwise > > > it > > > > is constanly thinking about past and future, or in some other > way > > > lost > > > > in an inner thought-world. Meta-thinking could be seen as a > flip, a > > > > reversal of how we experience ourselves and the world. Instead > of > > > only > > > > be aware of the now when reminded, we could perhaps get to a > state > > > > where we only become aware of time when reminded, or rather, to > be > > > > able to rest peacefully in the now and chose when we want to > think > > > > about past and future. In our ordinary state of thinking we > most of > > > > the time have no other choice than to be dragged along by > thoughts > > > and > > > > feelings about past and future. > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > Hi al., > > > > > > ok....Meta-Thinking seem to be a good technique to get better > control > > > of the thoughts....means, of mind.... > > > maybe better awareness of (and when) being in mind....or outside > > > (outside time and space).... > > > > > > but what is in your opinion the different between Meta- Thinking > and > > > Meditation?... > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > If we see meditation as observation of thoughts and emotions and > going > > into a state of stillness, then that would probably be a step in the > > direction of meta-thinking. But what happens after a person has > > meditated and is back in a busy work environment, for example? Then > > ordinary thinking kicks in, and we lose the ability to rest > peacefully > > in the moment. J. Krishnamurti talked about meditation as a > permanent > > state, and that is probably more in line with meta-thinking. > > > > I don't know if meta-thinking is possible, but I imagine such state > > being the ability to think about past and future without attachment > to > > those thoughts. In ordinary thinking the whole sense of a personal > > self is dragged along with the thoughts and emotions about the > future > > (and past). In ordinary thinking, the sense of self is attached and > > inseparable from the stream of thought. When we worry about the > future > > then the whole " me " is worried. > > > > In meta-thinking the " me " would remain in the now and thoughts about > > the future would still be a part of that " me " but would only be > > thoughts within the " me " /self. In ordinary thinking we can tell the > > difference between imagination and thoughts about reality. But what > we > > cannot do in ordinary thinking is to detach our selves from the > > thoughts about reality. In ordinary thinking, our thoughts about > > reality is experienced as being the same as our reality. > > > > So meta-thinking would be yet another level of abstraction. In a > state > > of meta-thinking we can see that ordinary thinking is only thoughts > > ABOUT reality. For example, in ordinary thinking when we think about > > something we will do in the future, such as going to the doctor > > tomorrow, then the experience is that the " me " is going to see a > > doctor tomorrow. In meta-thinking the " me " is not going anywhere, > and > > the thought about " me going to the doctor tomorrow " is only a > thought. > > > > al. > > Hello al., > > meditation is, as far i know, leaving body sense....means,entering in > real being.... > > it's normal that it's impossible to stay in this kind of > being....after the first (experienced) meditation.... > > I think that many Masters " practiced " meditation for long > years......and reached finally the real being......permanently.... > > to stay constantly in this state of being.....in meditation..... > does not mean that one has no more " consciousness " about the body > sense existing in this life-dream....in order to continue to have > just a normal life......without attachments to the illusion of being > this (fiction of) body mind intellect... > > but the constantly stay of this state of being..... > (meditation).....is the sign of " realization or liberation > or...whatever the exact term of It " > > then....when the meditation state is constantly present.....when it > take only few breath...to reenter again and again to this state..... > then there is the perception of no more being the " doer " ....because > the seperation to the infinite (Brahman) has gone.... > > i think that the meditation is indead no easy to enter in..... > and without inner love to.....That....the formless and infinite > Brahman...the Self........it even make not much sense to try > meditation..... > > and if so....there is, like you are told, ....there is a " seperation " > of the time during meditation....and the time " after " > > i don't see the big difference of the meditation state ....and the > described Meta-Thinking.... > > except...that for meditation, definitly, it's necessary to " put away " > (give away) the body mind intellect......to enter in real being.... > > Regards > > Marc > > > I would say this Marc: In meditation there is no separation between I Am and This. > > Being > One-Same-One > Being > > This > I Am This > IS > > > Love and Peace, > ar > > Ar, meditation can't be described..... in meditation there is the realization of not being this body-mind- intellect......there is the realization of That....what we (realy) Are....... and not that...we are dreaming to be no words to desribe this....excect in a dual concept.... there is never a seperation of " I am and This " ....what is percieved is related to the (own) mind..... like during sleep....there is no seperation of the dreamer and the dreamed..... after the consciousness of this (re)unification....there is the chance to slowly loose Karma....means the wordly attachments and tendencies..... this is the point on which...for many ....the spirituel path start.... ....until the day on which the drop is ocean....in permanent consciousness.... what is the " percieved " world as drop .....if compared with the " percieved " of the ocean....? Regards Marc > > > > > > > > ** > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 13, 2005 - dennis_travis33 Nisargadatta Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:33 AM Re: How to become a meta-thinker Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > - > dennis_travis33 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, September 13, 2005 8:57 AM > Re: How to become a meta-thinker > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " > > > <s.petersilge@o...> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I am trying to step out of time without losing the > ability > > > to use > > > > > > > >time. The trick is to find that part in oneself that > rests > > > > > > > peacefully > > > > > > > >in the now, and jump from the " thinker " into that ocean > of > > > peace. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >al. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Great to see you here, al... > > > > > > > In the ocean of peace. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to keep the ability to use time. > > > > > > > I understand that and I feel with you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But is it not rather that we are used by time, > > > > > > > And it has always been this way? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So I guess: we can step out without problems. > > > > > > > How can we lose something we never possessed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Time will take care of us. Inevitably. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And we are free to celebrate > > > > > > > Dance... Sing... Laugh... > > > > > > > And rest in this > > > > > > > Peaceful timeless moment... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > S. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Stefan, > > > > > > > > > > > > My ideas about meta-thinking is that it would make us able > to > > > step > > > > > > away from psychological time. A bit speculative I admit, > but > > > maybe > > > > > not > > > > > > impossible. In ordinary thinking, time is extremely > important, > > > > > almost > > > > > > its whole foundation. Meta-thinking would be the ability to > > > step out > > > > > > of ordinary thinking, a state where psychological time > still > > > can be > > > > > > used, but is not compulsory. > > > > > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > Namaste al., > > > > > > > > > > interesting this talk about " meta thinking " .... > > > > > > > > > > you write about time.... > > > > > > > > > > what would happen if there were no time..... > > > > > > > > > > maybe everything would happen at same time....means, what > > > happened in > > > > > the past...and will happen in the future is only > > > different " forms " > > > > > comaring with each.... > > > > > different forms " of the same material " ..... > > > > > > > > > > the material itself don't change.....only the appearence of > > > > > it.....depending on the time factor... > > > > > > > > > > so...without time factor......nothing realy happened in the > > > > > past....comparing with now....and the future..... > > > > > > > > > > everything related to time....like birth and death.....is the > > > > > appearence only....of the changeless reality... > > > > > > > > > > you talk about to " step out of ordinary thinking " (time)....i > > > believe > > > > > that " we " are already That.....timeless being...... > > > > > and That timeless being is it...what don't let us completely > step- > > > in > > > > > in the fiction of time related body-mind-intellect > > > > > > > > > > the ego-mind try hard to keep being in this fiction of > being.... > > > > > and invent many theories and arguments to just Be what we > already > > > > > Are...... > > > > > > > > > > sure...can be an interesting " time-game " ....a " life- play " ..... > > > > > acting as actors in a self-created movie....... > > > > > > > > > > in reality....maybe there is no movie....no actors.... > > > > > > > > > > there is maybe only being > > > > > > > > > > just being > > > > > > > > > > wish you a good day....in the Love that we are.... > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Marc, > > > > > > > > One problem is that our ordinary thinking has problem > connecting to > > > > only being. It's almost as if the purpose of the thinking mind > is to > > > > NOT be able to rest firmly in the now. When the thinking mind is > > > > reminded of the present moment then it discovers it, but > otherwise > > > it > > > > is constanly thinking about past and future, or in some other > way > > > lost > > > > in an inner thought-world. Meta-thinking could be seen as a > flip, a > > > > reversal of how we experience ourselves and the world. Instead > of > > > only > > > > be aware of the now when reminded, we could perhaps get to a > state > > > > where we only become aware of time when reminded, or rather, to > be > > > > able to rest peacefully in the now and chose when we want to > think > > > > about past and future. In our ordinary state of thinking we > most of > > > > the time have no other choice than to be dragged along by > thoughts > > > and > > > > feelings about past and future. > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > Hi al., > > > > > > ok....Meta-Thinking seem to be a good technique to get better > control > > > of the thoughts....means, of mind.... > > > maybe better awareness of (and when) being in mind....or outside > > > (outside time and space).... > > > > > > but what is in your opinion the different between Meta- Thinking > and > > > Meditation?... > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > If we see meditation as observation of thoughts and emotions and > going > > into a state of stillness, then that would probably be a step in the > > direction of meta-thinking. But what happens after a person has > > meditated and is back in a busy work environment, for example? Then > > ordinary thinking kicks in, and we lose the ability to rest > peacefully > > in the moment. J. Krishnamurti talked about meditation as a > permanent > > state, and that is probably more in line with meta-thinking. > > > > I don't know if meta-thinking is possible, but I imagine such state > > being the ability to think about past and future without attachment > to > > those thoughts. In ordinary thinking the whole sense of a personal > > self is dragged along with the thoughts and emotions about the > future > > (and past). In ordinary thinking, the sense of self is attached and > > inseparable from the stream of thought. When we worry about the > future > > then the whole " me " is worried. > > > > In meta-thinking the " me " would remain in the now and thoughts about > > the future would still be a part of that " me " but would only be > > thoughts within the " me " /self. In ordinary thinking we can tell the > > difference between imagination and thoughts about reality. But what > we > > cannot do in ordinary thinking is to detach our selves from the > > thoughts about reality. In ordinary thinking, our thoughts about > > reality is experienced as being the same as our reality. > > > > So meta-thinking would be yet another level of abstraction. In a > state > > of meta-thinking we can see that ordinary thinking is only thoughts > > ABOUT reality. For example, in ordinary thinking when we think about > > something we will do in the future, such as going to the doctor > > tomorrow, then the experience is that the " me " is going to see a > > doctor tomorrow. In meta-thinking the " me " is not going anywhere, > and > > the thought about " me going to the doctor tomorrow " is only a > thought. > > > > al. > > Hello al., > > meditation is, as far i know, leaving body sense....means,entering in > real being.... > > it's normal that it's impossible to stay in this kind of > being....after the first (experienced) meditation.... > > I think that many Masters " practiced " meditation for long > years......and reached finally the real being......permanently.... > > to stay constantly in this state of being.....in meditation..... > does not mean that one has no more " consciousness " about the body > sense existing in this life-dream....in order to continue to have > just a normal life......without attachments to the illusion of being > this (fiction of) body mind intellect... > > but the constantly stay of this state of being..... > (meditation).....is the sign of " realization or liberation > or...whatever the exact term of It " > > then....when the meditation state is constantly present.....when it > take only few breath...to reenter again and again to this state..... > then there is the perception of no more being the " doer " ....because > the seperation to the infinite (Brahman) has gone.... > > i think that the meditation is indead no easy to enter in..... > and without inner love to.....That....the formless and infinite > Brahman...the Self........it even make not much sense to try > meditation..... > > and if so....there is, like you are told, ....there is a " seperation " > of the time during meditation....and the time " after " > > i don't see the big difference of the meditation state ....and the > described Meta-Thinking.... > > except...that for meditation, definitly, it's necessary to " put away " > (give away) the body mind intellect......to enter in real being.... > > Regards > > Marc > > > I would say this Marc: In meditation there is no separation between I Am and This. > > Being > One-Same-One > Being > > This > I Am This > IS > > > Love and Peace, > ar > > Ar, meditation can't be described..... in meditation there is the realization of not being this body-mind- intellect......there is the realization of That....what we (realy) Are....... and not that...we are dreaming to be no words to desribe this....excect in a dual concept.... there is never a seperation of " I am and This " ....what is percieved is related to the (own) mind..... like during sleep....there is no seperation of the dreamer and the dreamed..... after the consciousness of this (re)unification....there is the chance to slowly loose Karma....means the wordly attachments and tendencies..... this is the point on which...for many ....the spirituel path start.... ...until the day on which the drop is ocean....in permanent consciousness.... what is the " percieved " world as drop .....if compared with the " percieved " of the ocean....? Regards Marc Only man can be aware of All: water as drop, water as ocean, which are both metaphors for 'God' and only man can experience him/herself as separate, part and the totality: evaporation in spirit.. Love, Anna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 13, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > - > anders_lindman .... > > > At first desire is driving thought, then there comes the desire to > transcend thought. And that desire must be about going in the > direction into the now, while ordinary desire is trying to get away > from the now. > > al. > > > So, peace can only be found now? Not when and then? > ah, so... > > love is peace, > peace is love, > Be-ing > > This Bliss called Is, > ah, so. > > ar > Peace must be found in the now, but I will probably take some time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 13, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: .... > > Hello al., > > meditation is, as far i know, leaving body sense....means,entering in > real being.... > > it's normal that it's impossible to stay in this kind of > being....after the first (experienced) meditation.... > > I think that many Masters " practiced " meditation for long > years......and reached finally the real being......permanently.... > > to stay constantly in this state of being.....in meditation..... > does not mean that one has no more " consciousness " about the body > sense existing in this life-dream....in order to continue to have > just a normal life......without attachments to the illusion of being > this (fiction of) body mind intellect... > > but the constantly stay of this state of being..... > (meditation).....is the sign of " realization or liberation > or...whatever the exact term of It " > > then....when the meditation state is constantly present.....when it > take only few breath...to reenter again and again to this state..... > then there is the perception of no more being the " doer " ....because > the seperation to the infinite (Brahman) has gone.... > > i think that the meditation is indead no easy to enter in..... > and without inner love to.....That....the formless and infinite > Brahman...the Self........it even make not much sense to try > meditation..... > > and if so....there is, like you are told, ....there is a " seperation " > of the time during meditation....and the time " after " > > i don't see the big difference of the meditation state ....and the > described Meta-Thinking.... > > except...that for meditation, definitly, it's necessary to " put away " > (give away) the body mind intellect......to enter in real being.... > > Regards > > Marc My idea with meta-thinking is that in that state there is still an ego as a doer, but on a higher level. I have also another idea. Another type of thinking that I call integral thinking which is the same as ordinary thinking but with an increased integration with direct sense perseptions and body awareness, a form of " thinking with the whole body " and with more awareness in the present moment. al. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
