Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2005 dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> > wrote: > >>Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> >>wrote: >>>It is now, now, now. Not a process, not one particular >>>kind of experience and not another. Nothing is excluded, >>>nothing left out (from/as this no-thingness). >> >>You are going as far as one can go with words. Should it be called >> " experience " ? It seems you are talking about pure being itself. The >>experiencer disappears. >> >>... > > > Yes, and the experience. > > And dissapearing also " disappears " - because > with nothing having appeared, no disappearance is > possible. > > Wordless wonder... > > And now, if named events, thoughts, feelings occur -- > the wordless truth nonetheless is not disturbed. > > >>>Thus, we dance as it is given to us to dance, the dance >>>that was danced, that is perceived as past, >>>and the undanced truth is all that is, the unheard >>>song is the only melody playing. >> >><smile> >> >>Greetings >>S. > > > Greetings to you, too, Stefan. > > -- Dan Greetings Dan and Stefan, It seems to me that that indeed there are no more words - there is wordless wonder. It also seems that being in wordless wonder can be by a simple intellectual exercise, which requires no one and therefore no effort. The principle assumed is simple. All concepts and language are inadequate to describe any experience of any kind at any time at any moment. In this, any and all experiences can never, ever be described using language and concept such that all experience becomes unthinkable and unspeakable. Also the principle assumed is dissolved. All dissolves to quiet and muteness. This seems like it can take a very short time, less than a week for an intellect flexible enough to allow all to dissolve including any sense of an intellector and therefore the intellect and any principle assumed or used. Simply accept it. An adventure. One thing to do among many. All of these can then be brought back as necessary in the name game. *Voila* Wordless Wonder in a week. Is there any sense that this can be in this way? If not, why not? Lewis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2005 Greetings Dan and Stefan, > > It seems to me that that indeed there are no more words - there is > wordless wonder. > Odysseus: Yes, intellectual one? > It also seems that being in wordless wonder can be by a simple > intellectual exercise, which requires no one and therefore no effort. Odysseus: What a crap Alexander! :0) > The principle assumed is simple. All concepts and language are > inadequate to describe any experience of any kind at any time at any moment. In this, any and all experiences can never, ever be described using language and concept such that all experience becomes unthinkable and unspeakable. Also the principle assumed is dissolved. All dissolves to quiet and muteness. Odysseus: Really? This seems like it can take a very short time, > less than a week for an intellect flexible enough to allow all to > dissolve including any sense of an intellector and therefore the > intellect and any principle assumed or used. Simply accept it. An > adventure. One thing to do among many. > Odysseus: isn't this instant enlightenment or enlightenment 101 ? How long can a stubborn man wait to get it two weeks? > All of these can then be brought back as necessary in the name game. > Odysseus: Go tell that to the ones who suffers that it is just a game! It is not a game and it is really real. > *Voila* Wordless Wonder in a week. > Odysseus: Voila what? > Is there any sense that this can be in this way? > > If not, why not? > > > Lewis Odysseus: Because, P.S. I am not suppose to be here but I could not resist. Well I had to come, well my mind decided for me to come here. Well it is not me it is my hands that types the letters. well there is no me to type. % $$#@ my one cell brain just exploded again. Odysseus, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2005 Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " <ilikezen2004> wrote: > > Greetings Dan and Stefan, > > > > It seems to me that that indeed there are no more words - there is > > wordless wonder. > > > Odysseus: Yes, intellectual one? > > > It also seems that being in wordless wonder can be by a simple > > intellectual exercise, which requires no one and therefore no > effort. > > Odysseus: What a crap Alexander! :0) > > > The principle assumed is simple. All concepts and language are > > inadequate to describe any experience of any kind at any time at > any moment. In this, any and all experiences can never, ever be > described using language and concept such that all experience > becomes unthinkable and unspeakable. Also the principle assumed is > dissolved. All dissolves to quiet and muteness. > > Odysseus: Really? > > This seems like it can take a very short time, > > less than a week for an intellect flexible enough to allow all to > > dissolve including any sense of an intellector and therefore the > > intellect and any principle assumed or used. Simply accept it. An > > adventure. One thing to do among many. > > > > Odysseus: isn't this instant enlightenment or enlightenment 101 ? > How long can a stubborn man wait to get it two weeks? > > > All of these can then be brought back as necessary in the name > game. > > > Odysseus: Go tell that to the ones who suffers that it is just a > game! It is not a game and it is really real. > > > *Voila* Wordless Wonder in a week. > > > Odysseus: Voila what? > > > Is there any sense that this can be in this way? > > > > If not, why not? > > > > > > Lewis > > Odysseus: Because, > > P.S. I am not suppose to be here but I could not resist. Well I had > to come, well my mind decided for me to come here. Well it is not me > it is my hands that types the letters. well there is no me to type. % > $$#@ my one cell brain just exploded again. > > Odysseus, Hi Odysseus, Welcome back! Missed your fire and verve. I see you are in fine form and ready to fly to it. Things have changed in some ways. Not quite the same old same old. And it may be good for you to catch up and see the new things that have transpired here. Take a look around, and do me a favor, my lovely, follow Dan and Stefan's thread that lead to this one, if you have the time. Love, Lewis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2005 > Hi Odysseus, > > Welcome back! > > Missed your fire and verve. > > I see you are in fine form and ready to fly to it. > Things have changed in some ways. > Not quite the same old same old. > And it may be good for you to catch up and see the new things that > have transpired here. > Take a look around, and do me a favor, my lovely, follow Dan and > Stefan's thread that lead to this one, if you have the time. > > Love, > > Lewis ********************** Love Lewis, I only red Stefan's and Dan's latest discussions. I don't have time to read. :0( But it was great! :0) I loved reading them. Yes I understand you. Things may have changed. I hope they changed a bit!!! cause it is not funny at all to talk to someone who is slapping his head on the wall saying at the same time that the wall does not exist!! Love to all, Odysseus, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> > wrote: > >>Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> >>wrote: >>>It is now, now, now. Not a process, not one particular >>>kind of experience and not another. Nothing is excluded, >>>nothing left out (from/as this no-thingness). >> >>You are going as far as one can go with words. Should it be called >> " experience " ? It seems you are talking about pure being itself. The >>experiencer disappears. >> >>... > > > Yes, and the experience. > > And dissapearing also " disappears " - because > with nothing having appeared, no disappearance is > possible. > > Wordless wonder... > > And now, if named events, thoughts, feelings occur -- > the wordless truth nonetheless is not disturbed. > > >>>Thus, we dance as it is given to us to dance, the dance >>>that was danced, that is perceived as past, >>>and the undanced truth is all that is, the unheard >>>song is the only melody playing. >> >><smile> >> >>Greetings >>S. > > > Greetings to you, too, Stefan. > > -- Dan Greetings Dan and Stefan, It seems to me that that indeed there are no more words - there is wordless wonder. It also seems that being in wordless wonder can be by a simple intellectual exercise, which requires no one and therefore no effort. The principle assumed is simple. All concepts and language are inadequate to describe any experience of any kind at any time at any moment. In this, any and all experiences can never, ever be described using language and concept such that all experience becomes unthinkable and unspeakable. Also the principle assumed is dissolved. All dissolves to quiet and muteness. This seems like it can take a very short time, less than a week for an intellect flexible enough to allow all to dissolve including any sense of an intellector and therefore the intellect and any principle assumed or used. Simply accept it. An adventure. One thing to do among many. All of these can then be brought back as necessary in the name game. *Voila* Wordless Wonder in a week. Is there any sense that this can be in this way? If not, why not? Lewis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 Greetings Dan and Stefan, > > It seems to me that that indeed there are no more words - there is > wordless wonder. > Odysseus: Yes, intellectual one? > It also seems that being in wordless wonder can be by a simple > intellectual exercise, which requires no one and therefore no effort. Odysseus: What a crap Alexander! :0) > The principle assumed is simple. All concepts and language are > inadequate to describe any experience of any kind at any time at any moment. In this, any and all experiences can never, ever be described using language and concept such that all experience becomes unthinkable and unspeakable. Also the principle assumed is dissolved. All dissolves to quiet and muteness. Odysseus: Really? This seems like it can take a very short time, > less than a week for an intellect flexible enough to allow all to > dissolve including any sense of an intellector and therefore the > intellect and any principle assumed or used. Simply accept it. An > adventure. One thing to do among many. > Odysseus: isn't this instant enlightenment or enlightenment 101 ? How long can a stubborn man wait to get it two weeks? > All of these can then be brought back as necessary in the name game. > Odysseus: Go tell that to the ones who suffers that it is just a game! It is not a game and it is really real. > *Voila* Wordless Wonder in a week. > Odysseus: Voila what? > Is there any sense that this can be in this way? > > If not, why not? > > > Lewis Odysseus: Because, P.S. I am not suppose to be here but I could not resist. Well I had to come, well my mind decided for me to come here. Well it is not me it is my hands that types the letters. well there is no me to type. % $$#@ my one cell brain just exploded again. Odysseus, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " <ilikezen2004> wrote: > > Greetings Dan and Stefan, > > > > It seems to me that that indeed there are no more words - there is > > wordless wonder. > > > Odysseus: Yes, intellectual one? > > > It also seems that being in wordless wonder can be by a simple > > intellectual exercise, which requires no one and therefore no > effort. > > Odysseus: What a crap Alexander! :0) > > > The principle assumed is simple. All concepts and language are > > inadequate to describe any experience of any kind at any time at > any moment. In this, any and all experiences can never, ever be > described using language and concept such that all experience > becomes unthinkable and unspeakable. Also the principle assumed is > dissolved. All dissolves to quiet and muteness. > > Odysseus: Really? > > This seems like it can take a very short time, > > less than a week for an intellect flexible enough to allow all to > > dissolve including any sense of an intellector and therefore the > > intellect and any principle assumed or used. Simply accept it. An > > adventure. One thing to do among many. > > > > Odysseus: isn't this instant enlightenment or enlightenment 101 ? > How long can a stubborn man wait to get it two weeks? > > > All of these can then be brought back as necessary in the name > game. > > > Odysseus: Go tell that to the ones who suffers that it is just a > game! It is not a game and it is really real. > > > *Voila* Wordless Wonder in a week. > > > Odysseus: Voila what? > > > Is there any sense that this can be in this way? > > > > If not, why not? > > > > > > Lewis > > Odysseus: Because, > > P.S. I am not suppose to be here but I could not resist. Well I had > to come, well my mind decided for me to come here. Well it is not me > it is my hands that types the letters. well there is no me to type. % > $$#@ my one cell brain just exploded again. > > Odysseus, Hi Odysseus, Welcome back! Missed your fire and verve. I see you are in fine form and ready to fly to it. Things have changed in some ways. Not quite the same old same old. And it may be good for you to catch up and see the new things that have transpired here. Take a look around, and do me a favor, my lovely, follow Dan and Stefan's thread that lead to this one, if you have the time. Love, Lewis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 > Hi Odysseus, > > Welcome back! > > Missed your fire and verve. > > I see you are in fine form and ready to fly to it. > Things have changed in some ways. > Not quite the same old same old. > And it may be good for you to catch up and see the new things that > have transpired here. > Take a look around, and do me a favor, my lovely, follow Dan and > Stefan's thread that lead to this one, if you have the time. > > Love, > > Lewis ********************** Love Lewis, I only red Stefan's and Dan's latest discussions. I don't have time to read. :0( But it was great! :0) I loved reading them. Yes I understand you. Things may have changed. I hope they changed a bit!!! cause it is not funny at all to talk to someone who is slapping his head on the wall saying at the same time that the wall does not exist!! Love to all, Odysseus, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: >Greetings Dan and Stefan, > >It seems to me that that indeed there are no more words - there is >wordless wonder. > >It also seems that being in wordless wonder can be by a simple >intellectual exercise, which requires no one and therefore no effort. >The principle assumed is simple. All concepts and language are >inadequate to describe any experience of any kind at any time at any >moment. In this, any and all experiences can never, ever be described >using language and concept such that all experience becomes unthinkable >and unspeakable. Also the principle assumed is dissolved. All dissolves >to quiet and muteness. This seems like it can take a very short time, >less than a week for an intellect flexible enough to allow all to >dissolve including any sense of an intellector and therefore the >intellect and any principle assumed or used. Simply accept it. An >adventure. One thing to do among many. > >All of these can then be brought back as necessary in the name game. > >*Voila* Wordless Wonder in a week. > >Is there any sense that this can be in this way? > >If not, why not? Hi Lewis. If I cannot get it now, how can I get it in a week? It is not enough to describe the sweet apple, it has to be taken and eaten, including the stalk. But I hope it can work, provided the seed falls on fertile ground. All the best Stefan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 > If I cannot get it now, how can I get it in a week? > > It is not enough to describe the sweet apple, it has to be taken and > eaten, including the stalk. > > But I hope it can work, provided the seed falls on fertile ground. > > All the best > Stefan ************************** Dear Achileas, One of the major errors in the spiritual domain is that the master or Guru can explain you the truth and you awaken in few days. This is a major major error. The master cannot chew your food. You have to do it yourself. If the father does the son's homework, the son cannot grow. The son will be zany or worse , be a great spiritual web site chatter. 1- The truth cannot be explained but lived, or experienced up to the Self or the palace of God. One has not even reached God yet. Only reached his palace. 2- The master or the guru's role is to shake you to awaken you to your self, awaken you to God. There at this point most of them turn God down and they claim them selves Gods. God knows that and he laughs. But it is ok. He is them too! But they are not him. No one advances in the spiritual path if it is not the will of God. Spit on God's face and he will make you slap your head on the wall thinking that there is no wall there or that you have reached something. 3- Do not spit on the one that gave you life. On the one that gives you understanding, on the one that prevent you to go further on the way because you made yourselves Gods and goddess. Love to all, Odysseus, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 Stefan wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > >>Greetings Dan and Stefan, >> >>It seems to me that that indeed there are no more words - there is >>wordless wonder. >> >>It also seems that being in wordless wonder can be by a simple >>intellectual exercise, which requires no one and therefore no > > effort. > >>The principle assumed is simple. All concepts and language are >>inadequate to describe any experience of any kind at any time at any >>moment. In this, any and all experiences can never, ever be > > described > >>using language and concept such that all experience becomes > > unthinkable > >>and unspeakable. Also the principle assumed is dissolved. All > > dissolves > >>to quiet and muteness. This seems like it can take a very short > > time, > >>less than a week for an intellect flexible enough to allow all to >>dissolve including any sense of an intellector and therefore the >>intellect and any principle assumed or used. Simply accept it. An >>adventure. One thing to do among many. >> >>All of these can then be brought back as necessary in the name game. >> >>*Voila* Wordless Wonder in a week. >> >>Is there any sense that this can be in this way? >> >>If not, why not? > > > Hi Lewis. > > If I cannot get it now, how can I get it in a week? > > It is not enough to describe the sweet apple, it has to be taken and > eaten, including the stalk. > > But I hope it can work, provided the seed falls on fertile ground. > > All the best > Stefan Hi Stefan, I do not know how you can get it and description alone may not be enough since it is always it is as Dan said between the lines and that seems to be only some kind of conceptual awareness like reading poetry and getting meaning from it whether or not that meaning is what the author intended. I have experienced those who seem to have done this in less than a week. It seems that they can talk this, manage this using these concepts as filters and dissolving all in conversations and pointing to that indescribable. It is done consciously and easily by simply accepting the assumptions wholly as they are and using them. These are long time friends of more than 30 years who have no interest in nonduality and on my suggestion alone " used " the positions as stated and they learned on their own in short order the speech and language displayed here, albeit in their tones and words, and they found it interesting and pleasurable and useful. They also seem have to have no concern to discuss it more than that. They laugh at my list obsession that has taken me from them. In any case, for them it seemed a simple exercise. They are no different after doing this in their general external behavior towards things and others and they do seem less attached to ideas they held previously, they seem more fluid in their thinking when I press them on this or that and say " Yeah, it is only an idea and it makes no difference in what I do, just in how I think about it. " My wondering is that given the simplicity of the requirements as discussed here and elsewhere, about the dissolving and disappearing of central linguistic concepts such as mind, self, SELf and I AM and the sense of those as well, and given the experiences above, is it then possible that wordless wonder becomes or the experiencer less being and doing occurs without experiencing concepts such as emptiness, dependent origination and self-inquiry and their related practices that aim at such dissolutions? That it is just natural being that way and simply unexamined in others and thus assumed it requires all this? My friends and me are very different in that I enjoy this talking of it and sharing experiences on it. They do not. Other matters occupy their attention and this changes over time. They never bring it up as a topic and have no interest in this whatsoever beyond my interest, which I occasionally bring up because of something undergone and they find it curious and will discuss it for a while, usually no more than ten minutes before conditions change and we move on to other matters. They display the characteristics described here, the silence, the wordless wonder when they stop being busy and express it upon my incessant questioning and are in wonderment of my wonderment about their wordless wonder. They see it as natural and nothing important. Isn't everyone like this? For me, they are a wonder in that they do nothing, speak nothing about these matters, yet have that which is spoken of here without considering it in any other way than what I bring to the table in our associations. I guess my curiosity spills over here and wonders about this and finding that conceptualizations and language can be had by simply using a filter and and that behavior, experience is more curious. And when you say Stefan, " It is not enough to describe the sweet apple, it has to be taken and eaten, including the stalk " it makes me wonder what did my friends or me for that matter eat that allows us to be as we are. We have this wordless wonder and experiencer less being and doing and the I AM sensation and awareness as subject and all of that. I can assume things about my experiences being what I am and what I ate and have done so over the years in this without understanding what has occurred. And it seems that all of these are experienced and can be had as required by my friends who spent what it seems to be no study or effort at all in this regard. Are we deluded? Am I deluded? Are our experiences authentic? We do not know, it is a curiosity and we laugh at total ignorance of it all, of not knowing what the hell is going on. It is what we are as it is and maybe it will change as we have over the years and my curiosity remains as to what others undergo in this so that I can understand what I experience with words and concepts different than my own and as to what my friends experience as a matter of daily life. Love Lewis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 > Hi Stefan, > > I do not know how you can get it and description alone may not be enough > since it is always it is as Dan said between the lines and that seems to > be only some kind of conceptual awareness like reading poetry and > getting meaning from it whether or not that meaning is what the author > intended. > > I have experienced those who seem to have done this in less than a week. Odysseus: :0) Yes your are right! " Who seem " > It seems that they can talk this, manage this using these concepts as filters and dissolving all in conversations and pointing to that > indescribable. It is done consciously and easily by simply accepting the assumptions wholly as they are and using them. Odysseus: ha ha! I know excactly what you mean. But the way you are seeing the situation is that they all are buddhas but only you are trying hard to understand. They know! You are the kid they know! etc. It seems so real. They speak the truth. etc. How is it possible. ha ha! I asked my 15 years old son. Is life a dream or is it truly there live? He answered me . I don't care. I don't give a damn. %$#@@#$ I said he is a buddha!!! He is above Maya and everything. Above life etc! These are long time friends of more than 30 years who have no interest in nonduality and on my suggestion alone " used " the positions as stated and they learned on their own in short order the speech and language displayed here, albeit in their tones and words, and they found it interesting and pleasurable > and useful. They also seem have to have no concern to discuss it more than that. They laugh at my list obsession that has taken me from them. In any case, for them it seemed a simple exercise. They are no different after doing this in their general external behavior towards things and > others and they do seem less attached to ideas they held previously, > they seem more fluid in their thinking when I press them on this or that > and say " Yeah, it is only an idea and it makes no difference in what I > do, just in how I think about it. " > Odysseus: Wow! fluid. I like that. Fluid. Ok I need to be fluid form now on. kidding. > My wondering is that given the simplicity of the requirements as > discussed here and elsewhere, about the dissolving and disappearing of > central linguistic concepts such as mind, self, SELf and I AM and the > sense of those as well, and given the experiences above, is it then > possible that wordless wonder becomes or the experiencer less being and > doing occurs without experiencing concepts such as emptiness, dependent > origination and self-inquiry and their related practices that aim at > such dissolutions? That it is just natural being that way and simply > unexamined in others and thus assumed it requires all this? > > My friends and me are very different in that I enjoy this talking of it > and sharing experiences on it. They do not. Other matters occupy their > attention and this changes over time. They never bring it up as a topic > and have no interest in this whatsoever beyond my interest, which I > occasionally bring up because of something undergone and they find it > curious and will discuss it for a while, usually no more than ten > minutes before conditions change and we move on to other matters. They > display the characteristics described here, the silence, the wordless > wonder when they stop being busy and express it upon my incessant > questioning and are in wonderment of my wonderment about their wordless > wonder. They see it as natural and nothing important. Isn't everyone > like this? For me, they are a wonder in that they do nothing, speak > nothing about these matters, yet have that which is spoken of here > without considering it in any other way than what I bring to the table > in our associations. > > I guess my curiosity spills over here and wonders about this and finding > that conceptualizations and language can be had by simply using a filter > and and that behavior, experience is more curious. > > And when you say Stefan, " It is not enough to describe the sweet apple, > it has to be taken and eaten, including the stalk " Odysseus: I say it too friend. it makes me wonder what did my friends or me for that matter eat that allows us to be as we are. Odysseus: Don't put yourself at the same level as your friend. They don't know what they are talking about. They seem to know. We have this wordless wonder and experiencer less being and doing > and the I AM sensation and awareness as subject and all of that. I can assume things about my experiences being what I am and what I ate and have done so over the years in this without understanding what has > occurred. And it seems that all of these are experienced and can be had > as required by my friends who spent what it seems to be no study or > effort at all in this regard. Are we deluded? Am I deluded? Odysseus: Both you and them are. you because you think they know! Are our experiences authentic? We do not know, it is a curiosity and we laugh at > total ignorance of it all, of not knowing what the hell is going on. It > is what we are as it is and maybe it will change as we have over the > years and my curiosity remains as to what others undergo in this so that > I can understand what I experience with words and concepts different > than my own and as to what my friends experience as a matter of daily life. > > Love > > Lewis Lewis I estimate you and you know that. So don't fall in the trap that almost everyone is already awaken. You are above that. I will answer your other reply later. God is not a clown. We are the clowns. Odysseus, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 In a message dated 2/10/05 6:49:47 AM, lbb10 writes: > >These are long time > friends of more than 30 years who have no interest in nonduality and on > >my suggestion alone " used " the positions as stated and they learned on > their own in short order the speech and language displayed here, albeit > in their tones and words, and they found it interesting and pleasurable > >and useful. They also seem have to have no concern to discuss it more > than that. They laugh at my list obsession that has taken me from them. > >In any case, for them it seemed a simple exercise. They are no different > after doing this in their general external behavior towards things and > >others and they do seem less attached to ideas they held previously, > they seem more fluid in their thinking when I press them on this or that > >and say " Yeah, it is only an idea and it makes no difference in what I > >do, just in how I think about it. " > P: LOL, Lewis. Has it occurred to you that your friends are just humoring you? Could it be they know that the easiest way to get rid of this lovable crackpot's obsession is to agree with him? It's strange that you believe that you of all people have discovered a method to transform human minds in a week, when thousands opon thousands of sages struggled for millennia to do the same and failed. Doesn't that strike you as very odd? Should you not be very skeptical? > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 ilikezen2004 wrote: > >>Hi Stefan, >> >>I do not know how you can get it and description alone may not be > > enough > >>since it is always it is as Dan said between the lines and that > > seems to > >>be only some kind of conceptual awareness like reading poetry and >>getting meaning from it whether or not that meaning is what the > > author > >>intended. >> >>I have experienced those who seem to have done this in less than a > > week. > > Odysseus: :0) Yes your are right! " Who seem " > > >>It seems that they can talk this, manage this using these concepts > > as filters and dissolving all in conversations and pointing to that > >>indescribable. It is done consciously and easily by simply > > accepting the assumptions wholly as they are and using them. > > Odysseus: ha ha! I know excactly what you mean. But the way you are > seeing the situation is that they all are buddhas but only you are > trying hard to understand. They know! You are the kid they know! > etc. It seems so real. They speak the truth. etc. How is it > possible. ha ha! I asked my 15 years old son. Is life a dream or is > it truly there live? He answered me . I don't care. I don't give a > damn. %$#@@#$ I said he is a buddha!!! He is above Maya and > everything. Above life etc! > > These are long time friends of more than 30 years who have no > interest in nonduality and on my suggestion alone " used " the > positions as stated and they learned on their own in short order the > speech and language displayed here, albeit in their tones and words, > and they found it interesting and pleasurable > >>and useful. They also seem have to have no concern to discuss it > > more than that. They laugh at my list obsession that has taken me > from them. In any case, for them it seemed a simple exercise. They > are no different after doing this in their general external behavior > towards things and > >>others and they do seem less attached to ideas they held > > previously, > >>they seem more fluid in their thinking when I press them on this > > or that > >>and say " Yeah, it is only an idea and it makes no difference in > > what I > >>do, just in how I think about it. " >> > > Odysseus: Wow! fluid. I like that. Fluid. Ok I need to be fluid form > now on. kidding. > > > >>My wondering is that given the simplicity of the requirements as >>discussed here and elsewhere, about the dissolving and > > disappearing of > >>central linguistic concepts such as mind, self, SELf and I AM and > > the > >>sense of those as well, and given the experiences above, is it > > then > >>possible that wordless wonder becomes or the experiencer less > > being and > >>doing occurs without experiencing concepts such as emptiness, > > dependent > >>origination and self-inquiry and their related practices that aim > > at > >>such dissolutions? That it is just natural being that way and > > simply > >>unexamined in others and thus assumed it requires all this? >> >>My friends and me are very different in that I enjoy this talking > > of it > >>and sharing experiences on it. They do not. Other matters occupy > > their > >>attention and this changes over time. They never bring it up as a > > topic > >>and have no interest in this whatsoever beyond my interest, which > > I > >>occasionally bring up because of something undergone and they find > > it > >>curious and will discuss it for a while, usually no more than ten >>minutes before conditions change and we move on to other matters. > > They > >>display the characteristics described here, the silence, the > > wordless > >>wonder when they stop being busy and express it upon my incessant >>questioning and are in wonderment of my wonderment about their > > wordless > >>wonder. They see it as natural and nothing important. Isn't > > everyone > >>like this? For me, they are a wonder in that they do nothing, > > speak > >>nothing about these matters, yet have that which is spoken of here >>without considering it in any other way than what I bring to the > > table > >>in our associations. >> >>I guess my curiosity spills over here and wonders about this and > > finding > >>that conceptualizations and language can be had by simply using a > > filter > >>and and that behavior, experience is more curious. >> >>And when you say Stefan, " It is not enough to describe the sweet > > apple, > >>it has to be taken and eaten, including the stalk " > > > Odysseus: I say it too friend. > > it makes me wonder what did my friends or me for that matter eat > that allows us to be as we are. > > > Odysseus: Don't put yourself at the same level as your friend. They > don't know what they are talking about. They seem to know. They do not say anything about it, Odysseus. They are unconcerned. > > > We have this wordless wonder and experiencer less being and doing > >>and the I AM sensation and awareness as subject and all of that. I > > can assume things about my experiences being what I am and what I > ate and have done so over the years in this without understanding > what has > >>occurred. And it seems that all of these are experienced and can > > be had > >>as required by my friends who spent what it seems to be no study > > or > >>effort at all in this regard. Are we deluded? Am I deluded? > > > Odysseus: Both you and them are. you because you think they know! Know what Odysseus? They claim nothing, neither knowledge nor experience. It is the way they are and they did not consider it until I questioned them. My experience is just that. I do not know what it means. It is as it is. > > Are our experiences authentic? We do not know, it is a curiosity and > we laugh at > >>total ignorance of it all, of not knowing what the hell is going > > on. > > It > >>is what we are as it is and maybe it will change as we have over > > the > >>years and my curiosity remains as to what others undergo in this > > so that > >>I can understand what I experience with words and concepts > > different > >>than my own and as to what my friends experience as a matter of > > daily life. > >>Love >> >>Lewis > > > > Lewis I estimate you and you know that. So don't fall in the trap > that almost everyone is already awaken. You are above that. Odysseus, I do not yet know what awakened means. My eyes are open, I see and I do. What more awakened is necessary? Please tell me what it means to be awakened. Thanks, Lewis > > I will answer your other reply later. > > God is not a clown. We are the clowns. > Odysseus, > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 In a message dated 2/10/05 4:03:47 PM, freyjartist writes: > > >These are long time > > > friends of more than 30 years who have no interest in nonduality > and on > > > >my suggestion alone " used " the positions as stated and they > learned on > > > their own in short order the speech and language displayed here, > albeit > > > in their tones and words, and they found it interesting and > pleasurable > > > >and useful. They also seem have to have no concern to discuss it > more > > > than that. They laugh at my list obsession that has taken me from > them. > > > >In any case, for them it seemed a simple exercise. They are no > different > > > after doing this in their general external behavior towards > things and > > > >others and they do seem less attached to ideas they held > previously, > > > they seem more fluid in their thinking when I press them on this > or that > > > >and say " Yeah, it is only an idea and it makes no difference in > what I > > > >do, just in how I think about it. " > > > > > P: LOL, Lewis. Has it occurred to you that your friends are just > humoring > > you? Could it be they know that the easiest way to get rid of this > lovable > > crackpot's obsession is to agree with him? > > > > It's strange that you believe that you of all people have > discovered a method > > to transform human minds in a week, when thousands opon thousands > of sages > > struggled for millennia to do the same and failed. Doesn't that > strike you > > as very odd? Should you not be very skeptical? > > > > > > F: Pete, are you sure they were struggling > to do anything? > P: For GODDD's sake! Do you think my message was about sages struggling? LOL Struggling was a poor choice of words, granted! Maybe 'tried', would have been better, but the message was about Lewis one week method to revolutionazed thinking, not about struggling. Why peeople pick up a word and ignore the the core of messages is beyond me. Kisses, Pete Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: >Greetings Dan and Stefan, > >It seems to me that that indeed there are no more words - there is >wordless wonder. > >It also seems that being in wordless wonder can be by a simple >intellectual exercise, which requires no one and therefore no effort. >The principle assumed is simple. All concepts and language are >inadequate to describe any experience of any kind at any time at any >moment. In this, any and all experiences can never, ever be described >using language and concept such that all experience becomes unthinkable >and unspeakable. Also the principle assumed is dissolved. All dissolves >to quiet and muteness. This seems like it can take a very short time, >less than a week for an intellect flexible enough to allow all to >dissolve including any sense of an intellector and therefore the >intellect and any principle assumed or used. Simply accept it. An >adventure. One thing to do among many. > >All of these can then be brought back as necessary in the name game. > >*Voila* Wordless Wonder in a week. > >Is there any sense that this can be in this way? > >If not, why not? Hi Lewis. If I cannot get it now, how can I get it in a week? It is not enough to describe the sweet apple, it has to be taken and eaten, including the stalk. But I hope it can work, provided the seed falls on fertile ground. All the best Stefan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 > If I cannot get it now, how can I get it in a week? > > It is not enough to describe the sweet apple, it has to be taken and > eaten, including the stalk. > > But I hope it can work, provided the seed falls on fertile ground. > > All the best > Stefan ************************** Dear Achileas, One of the major errors in the spiritual domain is that the master or Guru can explain you the truth and you awaken in few days. This is a major major error. The master cannot chew your food. You have to do it yourself. If the father does the son's homework, the son cannot grow. The son will be zany or worse , be a great spiritual web site chatter. 1- The truth cannot be explained but lived, or experienced up to the Self or the palace of God. One has not even reached God yet. Only reached his palace. 2- The master or the guru's role is to shake you to awaken you to your self, awaken you to God. There at this point most of them turn God down and they claim them selves Gods. God knows that and he laughs. But it is ok. He is them too! But they are not him. No one advances in the spiritual path if it is not the will of God. Spit on God's face and he will make you slap your head on the wall thinking that there is no wall there or that you have reached something. 3- Do not spit on the one that gave you life. On the one that gives you understanding, on the one that prevent you to go further on the way because you made yourselves Gods and goddess. Love to all, Odysseus, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 Stefan wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > >>Greetings Dan and Stefan, >> >>It seems to me that that indeed there are no more words - there is >>wordless wonder. >> >>It also seems that being in wordless wonder can be by a simple >>intellectual exercise, which requires no one and therefore no > > effort. > >>The principle assumed is simple. All concepts and language are >>inadequate to describe any experience of any kind at any time at any >>moment. In this, any and all experiences can never, ever be > > described > >>using language and concept such that all experience becomes > > unthinkable > >>and unspeakable. Also the principle assumed is dissolved. All > > dissolves > >>to quiet and muteness. This seems like it can take a very short > > time, > >>less than a week for an intellect flexible enough to allow all to >>dissolve including any sense of an intellector and therefore the >>intellect and any principle assumed or used. Simply accept it. An >>adventure. One thing to do among many. >> >>All of these can then be brought back as necessary in the name game. >> >>*Voila* Wordless Wonder in a week. >> >>Is there any sense that this can be in this way? >> >>If not, why not? > > > Hi Lewis. > > If I cannot get it now, how can I get it in a week? > > It is not enough to describe the sweet apple, it has to be taken and > eaten, including the stalk. > > But I hope it can work, provided the seed falls on fertile ground. > > All the best > Stefan Hi Stefan, I do not know how you can get it and description alone may not be enough since it is always it is as Dan said between the lines and that seems to be only some kind of conceptual awareness like reading poetry and getting meaning from it whether or not that meaning is what the author intended. I have experienced those who seem to have done this in less than a week. It seems that they can talk this, manage this using these concepts as filters and dissolving all in conversations and pointing to that indescribable. It is done consciously and easily by simply accepting the assumptions wholly as they are and using them. These are long time friends of more than 30 years who have no interest in nonduality and on my suggestion alone " used " the positions as stated and they learned on their own in short order the speech and language displayed here, albeit in their tones and words, and they found it interesting and pleasurable and useful. They also seem have to have no concern to discuss it more than that. They laugh at my list obsession that has taken me from them. In any case, for them it seemed a simple exercise. They are no different after doing this in their general external behavior towards things and others and they do seem less attached to ideas they held previously, they seem more fluid in their thinking when I press them on this or that and say " Yeah, it is only an idea and it makes no difference in what I do, just in how I think about it. " My wondering is that given the simplicity of the requirements as discussed here and elsewhere, about the dissolving and disappearing of central linguistic concepts such as mind, self, SELf and I AM and the sense of those as well, and given the experiences above, is it then possible that wordless wonder becomes or the experiencer less being and doing occurs without experiencing concepts such as emptiness, dependent origination and self-inquiry and their related practices that aim at such dissolutions? That it is just natural being that way and simply unexamined in others and thus assumed it requires all this? My friends and me are very different in that I enjoy this talking of it and sharing experiences on it. They do not. Other matters occupy their attention and this changes over time. They never bring it up as a topic and have no interest in this whatsoever beyond my interest, which I occasionally bring up because of something undergone and they find it curious and will discuss it for a while, usually no more than ten minutes before conditions change and we move on to other matters. They display the characteristics described here, the silence, the wordless wonder when they stop being busy and express it upon my incessant questioning and are in wonderment of my wonderment about their wordless wonder. They see it as natural and nothing important. Isn't everyone like this? For me, they are a wonder in that they do nothing, speak nothing about these matters, yet have that which is spoken of here without considering it in any other way than what I bring to the table in our associations. I guess my curiosity spills over here and wonders about this and finding that conceptualizations and language can be had by simply using a filter and and that behavior, experience is more curious. And when you say Stefan, " It is not enough to describe the sweet apple, it has to be taken and eaten, including the stalk " it makes me wonder what did my friends or me for that matter eat that allows us to be as we are. We have this wordless wonder and experiencer less being and doing and the I AM sensation and awareness as subject and all of that. I can assume things about my experiences being what I am and what I ate and have done so over the years in this without understanding what has occurred. And it seems that all of these are experienced and can be had as required by my friends who spent what it seems to be no study or effort at all in this regard. Are we deluded? Am I deluded? Are our experiences authentic? We do not know, it is a curiosity and we laugh at total ignorance of it all, of not knowing what the hell is going on. It is what we are as it is and maybe it will change as we have over the years and my curiosity remains as to what others undergo in this so that I can understand what I experience with words and concepts different than my own and as to what my friends experience as a matter of daily life. Love Lewis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 2/10/05 6:49:47 AM, lbb10@c... writes: > > > > >These are long time > > friends of more than 30 years who have no interest in nonduality and on > > >my suggestion alone " used " the positions as stated and they learned on > > their own in short order the speech and language displayed here, albeit > > in their tones and words, and they found it interesting and pleasurable > > >and useful. They also seem have to have no concern to discuss it more > > than that. They laugh at my list obsession that has taken me from them. > > >In any case, for them it seemed a simple exercise. They are no different > > after doing this in their general external behavior towards things and > > >others and they do seem less attached to ideas they held previously, > > they seem more fluid in their thinking when I press them on this or that > > >and say " Yeah, it is only an idea and it makes no difference in what I > > >do, just in how I think about it. " > > > P: LOL, Lewis. Has it occurred to you that your friends are just humoring > you? Could it be they know that the easiest way to get rid of this lovable > crackpot's obsession is to agree with him? > > It's strange that you believe that you of all people have discovered a method > to transform human minds in a week, when thousands opon thousands of sages > struggled for millennia to do the same and failed. Doesn't that strike you > as very odd? Should you not be very skeptical? \ Sages do not struggle to transform.....anything. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 2/10/05 6:49:47 AM, lbb10@c... writes: > > > > >These are long time > > friends of more than 30 years who have no interest in nonduality and on > > >my suggestion alone " used " the positions as stated and they learned on > > their own in short order the speech and language displayed here, albeit > > in their tones and words, and they found it interesting and pleasurable > > >and useful. They also seem have to have no concern to discuss it more > > than that. They laugh at my list obsession that has taken me from them. > > >In any case, for them it seemed a simple exercise. They are no different > > after doing this in their general external behavior towards things and > > >others and they do seem less attached to ideas they held previously, > > they seem more fluid in their thinking when I press them on this or that > > >and say " Yeah, it is only an idea and it makes no difference in what I > > >do, just in how I think about it. " > > > P: LOL, Lewis. Has it occurred to you that your friends are just humoring > you? Could it be they know that the easiest way to get rid of this lovable > crackpot's obsession is to agree with him? > > It's strange that you believe that you of all people have discovered a method > to transform human minds in a week, when thousands opon thousands of sages > struggled for millennia to do the same and failed. Doesn't that strike you > as very odd? Should you not be very skeptical? > > Pete, are you sure they were struggling to do anything? I don't know, but when talk turns to sages, lately, I get this picture of Chauncy Gardner (Peter Sellers) in " Being There " , who was not trying to do anything other than be what he was. Granted, he was a little 'odd', or different than most people. He responded simply what came to him to say, and everyone thought he was the enlightened master! They thought it was very wise to watch a lot of TV because that's what Chauncy did and he said " I like to watch " which they probably construed to be detachment. They also thought that when he spoke about sowing seeds in the spring, etc., that it was symbolic of something very profound, but he was just talking about gardening. ~freyja > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 2/10/05 4:03:47 PM, freyjartist@a... writes: > > > > > >These are long time > > > > friends of more than 30 years who have no interest in nonduality > > and on > > > > >my suggestion alone " used " the positions as stated and they > > learned on > > > > their own in short order the speech and language displayed here, > > albeit > > > > in their tones and words, and they found it interesting and > > pleasurable > > > > >and useful. They also seem have to have no concern to discuss it > > more > > > > than that. They laugh at my list obsession that has taken me from > > them. > > > > >In any case, for them it seemed a simple exercise. They are no > > different > > > > after doing this in their general external behavior towards > > things and > > > > >others and they do seem less attached to ideas they held > > previously, > > > > they seem more fluid in their thinking when I press them on this > > or that > > > > >and say " Yeah, it is only an idea and it makes no difference in > > what I > > > > >do, just in how I think about it. " > > > > > > > P: LOL, Lewis. Has it occurred to you that your friends are just > > humoring > > > you? Could it be they know that the easiest way to get rid of this > > lovable > > > crackpot's obsession is to agree with him? > > > > > > It's strange that you believe that you of all people have > > discovered a method > > > to transform human minds in a week, when thousands opon thousands > > of sages > > > struggled for millennia to do the same and failed. Doesn't that > > strike you > > > as very odd? Should you not be very skeptical? > > > > > > > > > > F: Pete, are you sure they were struggling > > to do anything? > > > P: For GODDD's sake! Do you think my message > was about sages struggling? LOL Struggling was > a poor choice of words, granted! Maybe 'tried', > would have been better, but the message > was about Lewis one week method to revolutionazed > thinking, not about struggling. Why peeople pick up > a word and ignore the the core of messages > is beyond me. > > Kisses, > Pete > > > > > I see now what you meant. Sorry. t. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 > Hi Stefan, > > I do not know how you can get it and description alone may not be enough > since it is always it is as Dan said between the lines and that seems to > be only some kind of conceptual awareness like reading poetry and > getting meaning from it whether or not that meaning is what the author > intended. > > I have experienced those who seem to have done this in less than a week. Odysseus: :0) Yes your are right! " Who seem " > It seems that they can talk this, manage this using these concepts as filters and dissolving all in conversations and pointing to that > indescribable. It is done consciously and easily by simply accepting the assumptions wholly as they are and using them. Odysseus: ha ha! I know excactly what you mean. But the way you are seeing the situation is that they all are buddhas but only you are trying hard to understand. They know! You are the kid they know! etc. It seems so real. They speak the truth. etc. How is it possible. ha ha! I asked my 15 years old son. Is life a dream or is it truly there live? He answered me . I don't care. I don't give a damn. %$#@@#$ I said he is a buddha!!! He is above Maya and everything. Above life etc! These are long time friends of more than 30 years who have no interest in nonduality and on my suggestion alone " used " the positions as stated and they learned on their own in short order the speech and language displayed here, albeit in their tones and words, and they found it interesting and pleasurable > and useful. They also seem have to have no concern to discuss it more than that. They laugh at my list obsession that has taken me from them. In any case, for them it seemed a simple exercise. They are no different after doing this in their general external behavior towards things and > others and they do seem less attached to ideas they held previously, > they seem more fluid in their thinking when I press them on this or that > and say " Yeah, it is only an idea and it makes no difference in what I > do, just in how I think about it. " > Odysseus: Wow! fluid. I like that. Fluid. Ok I need to be fluid form now on. kidding. > My wondering is that given the simplicity of the requirements as > discussed here and elsewhere, about the dissolving and disappearing of > central linguistic concepts such as mind, self, SELf and I AM and the > sense of those as well, and given the experiences above, is it then > possible that wordless wonder becomes or the experiencer less being and > doing occurs without experiencing concepts such as emptiness, dependent > origination and self-inquiry and their related practices that aim at > such dissolutions? That it is just natural being that way and simply > unexamined in others and thus assumed it requires all this? > > My friends and me are very different in that I enjoy this talking of it > and sharing experiences on it. They do not. Other matters occupy their > attention and this changes over time. They never bring it up as a topic > and have no interest in this whatsoever beyond my interest, which I > occasionally bring up because of something undergone and they find it > curious and will discuss it for a while, usually no more than ten > minutes before conditions change and we move on to other matters. They > display the characteristics described here, the silence, the wordless > wonder when they stop being busy and express it upon my incessant > questioning and are in wonderment of my wonderment about their wordless > wonder. They see it as natural and nothing important. Isn't everyone > like this? For me, they are a wonder in that they do nothing, speak > nothing about these matters, yet have that which is spoken of here > without considering it in any other way than what I bring to the table > in our associations. > > I guess my curiosity spills over here and wonders about this and finding > that conceptualizations and language can be had by simply using a filter > and and that behavior, experience is more curious. > > And when you say Stefan, " It is not enough to describe the sweet apple, > it has to be taken and eaten, including the stalk " Odysseus: I say it too friend. it makes me wonder what did my friends or me for that matter eat that allows us to be as we are. Odysseus: Don't put yourself at the same level as your friend. They don't know what they are talking about. They seem to know. We have this wordless wonder and experiencer less being and doing > and the I AM sensation and awareness as subject and all of that. I can assume things about my experiences being what I am and what I ate and have done so over the years in this without understanding what has > occurred. And it seems that all of these are experienced and can be had > as required by my friends who spent what it seems to be no study or > effort at all in this regard. Are we deluded? Am I deluded? Odysseus: Both you and them are. you because you think they know! Are our experiences authentic? We do not know, it is a curiosity and we laugh at > total ignorance of it all, of not knowing what the hell is going on. It > is what we are as it is and maybe it will change as we have over the > years and my curiosity remains as to what others undergo in this so that > I can understand what I experience with words and concepts different > than my own and as to what my friends experience as a matter of daily life. > > Love > > Lewis Lewis I estimate you and you know that. So don't fall in the trap that almost everyone is already awaken. You are above that. I will answer your other reply later. God is not a clown. We are the clowns. Odysseus, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 In a message dated 2/10/05 6:49:47 AM, lbb10 writes: > >These are long time > friends of more than 30 years who have no interest in nonduality and on > >my suggestion alone " used " the positions as stated and they learned on > their own in short order the speech and language displayed here, albeit > in their tones and words, and they found it interesting and pleasurable > >and useful. They also seem have to have no concern to discuss it more > than that. They laugh at my list obsession that has taken me from them. > >In any case, for them it seemed a simple exercise. They are no different > after doing this in their general external behavior towards things and > >others and they do seem less attached to ideas they held previously, > they seem more fluid in their thinking when I press them on this or that > >and say " Yeah, it is only an idea and it makes no difference in what I > >do, just in how I think about it. " > P: LOL, Lewis. Has it occurred to you that your friends are just humoring you? Could it be they know that the easiest way to get rid of this lovable crackpot's obsession is to agree with him? It's strange that you believe that you of all people have discovered a method to transform human minds in a week, when thousands opon thousands of sages struggled for millennia to do the same and failed. Doesn't that strike you as very odd? Should you not be very skeptical? > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 ilikezen2004 wrote: > >>Hi Stefan, >> >>I do not know how you can get it and description alone may not be > > enough > >>since it is always it is as Dan said between the lines and that > > seems to > >>be only some kind of conceptual awareness like reading poetry and >>getting meaning from it whether or not that meaning is what the > > author > >>intended. >> >>I have experienced those who seem to have done this in less than a > > week. > > Odysseus: :0) Yes your are right! " Who seem " > > >>It seems that they can talk this, manage this using these concepts > > as filters and dissolving all in conversations and pointing to that > >>indescribable. It is done consciously and easily by simply > > accepting the assumptions wholly as they are and using them. > > Odysseus: ha ha! I know excactly what you mean. But the way you are > seeing the situation is that they all are buddhas but only you are > trying hard to understand. They know! You are the kid they know! > etc. It seems so real. They speak the truth. etc. How is it > possible. ha ha! I asked my 15 years old son. Is life a dream or is > it truly there live? He answered me . I don't care. I don't give a > damn. %$#@@#$ I said he is a buddha!!! He is above Maya and > everything. Above life etc! > > These are long time friends of more than 30 years who have no > interest in nonduality and on my suggestion alone " used " the > positions as stated and they learned on their own in short order the > speech and language displayed here, albeit in their tones and words, > and they found it interesting and pleasurable > >>and useful. They also seem have to have no concern to discuss it > > more than that. They laugh at my list obsession that has taken me > from them. In any case, for them it seemed a simple exercise. They > are no different after doing this in their general external behavior > towards things and > >>others and they do seem less attached to ideas they held > > previously, > >>they seem more fluid in their thinking when I press them on this > > or that > >>and say " Yeah, it is only an idea and it makes no difference in > > what I > >>do, just in how I think about it. " >> > > Odysseus: Wow! fluid. I like that. Fluid. Ok I need to be fluid form > now on. kidding. > > > >>My wondering is that given the simplicity of the requirements as >>discussed here and elsewhere, about the dissolving and > > disappearing of > >>central linguistic concepts such as mind, self, SELf and I AM and > > the > >>sense of those as well, and given the experiences above, is it > > then > >>possible that wordless wonder becomes or the experiencer less > > being and > >>doing occurs without experiencing concepts such as emptiness, > > dependent > >>origination and self-inquiry and their related practices that aim > > at > >>such dissolutions? That it is just natural being that way and > > simply > >>unexamined in others and thus assumed it requires all this? >> >>My friends and me are very different in that I enjoy this talking > > of it > >>and sharing experiences on it. They do not. Other matters occupy > > their > >>attention and this changes over time. They never bring it up as a > > topic > >>and have no interest in this whatsoever beyond my interest, which > > I > >>occasionally bring up because of something undergone and they find > > it > >>curious and will discuss it for a while, usually no more than ten >>minutes before conditions change and we move on to other matters. > > They > >>display the characteristics described here, the silence, the > > wordless > >>wonder when they stop being busy and express it upon my incessant >>questioning and are in wonderment of my wonderment about their > > wordless > >>wonder. They see it as natural and nothing important. Isn't > > everyone > >>like this? For me, they are a wonder in that they do nothing, > > speak > >>nothing about these matters, yet have that which is spoken of here >>without considering it in any other way than what I bring to the > > table > >>in our associations. >> >>I guess my curiosity spills over here and wonders about this and > > finding > >>that conceptualizations and language can be had by simply using a > > filter > >>and and that behavior, experience is more curious. >> >>And when you say Stefan, " It is not enough to describe the sweet > > apple, > >>it has to be taken and eaten, including the stalk " > > > Odysseus: I say it too friend. > > it makes me wonder what did my friends or me for that matter eat > that allows us to be as we are. > > > Odysseus: Don't put yourself at the same level as your friend. They > don't know what they are talking about. They seem to know. They do not say anything about it, Odysseus. They are unconcerned. > > > We have this wordless wonder and experiencer less being and doing > >>and the I AM sensation and awareness as subject and all of that. I > > can assume things about my experiences being what I am and what I > ate and have done so over the years in this without understanding > what has > >>occurred. And it seems that all of these are experienced and can > > be had > >>as required by my friends who spent what it seems to be no study > > or > >>effort at all in this regard. Are we deluded? Am I deluded? > > > Odysseus: Both you and them are. you because you think they know! Know what Odysseus? They claim nothing, neither knowledge nor experience. It is the way they are and they did not consider it until I questioned them. My experience is just that. I do not know what it means. It is as it is. > > Are our experiences authentic? We do not know, it is a curiosity and > we laugh at > >>total ignorance of it all, of not knowing what the hell is going > > on. > > It > >>is what we are as it is and maybe it will change as we have over > > the > >>years and my curiosity remains as to what others undergo in this > > so that > >>I can understand what I experience with words and concepts > > different > >>than my own and as to what my friends experience as a matter of > > daily life. > >>Love >> >>Lewis > > > > Lewis I estimate you and you know that. So don't fall in the trap > that almost everyone is already awaken. You are above that. Odysseus, I do not yet know what awakened means. My eyes are open, I see and I do. What more awakened is necessary? Please tell me what it means to be awakened. Thanks, Lewis > > I will answer your other reply later. > > God is not a clown. We are the clowns. > Odysseus, > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2005 Pedsie2 wrote: > > In a message dated 2/10/05 6:49:47 AM, lbb10 writes: > > > >>>These are long time >> >>friends of more than 30 years who have no interest in nonduality and on >> >>>my suggestion alone " used " the positions as stated and they learned on >> >>their own in short order the speech and language displayed here, albeit >>in their tones and words, and they found it interesting and pleasurable >> >>>and useful. They also seem have to have no concern to discuss it more >> >>than that. They laugh at my list obsession that has taken me from them. >> >>>In any case, for them it seemed a simple exercise. They are no different >> >>after doing this in their general external behavior towards things and >> >>>others and they do seem less attached to ideas they held previously, >> >>they seem more fluid in their thinking when I press them on this or that >> >>>and say " Yeah, it is only an idea and it makes no difference in what I >>>do, just in how I think about it. " >> > P: LOL, Lewis. Has it occurred to you that your friends are just humoring > you? Could it be they know that the easiest way to get rid of this lovable > crackpot's obsession is to agree with him? That's possible Pete if you want to think of that way. It does not matter for me or them we are the way we are before encountering this and the play we engage in is that. Humoring after 35 years through thick and thin? What kind of friends do you have, Pete. We never humor each other. A hint of it and it is called for what it is. > It's strange that you believe that you of all people have discovered a method > to transform human minds in a week, when thousands opon thousands of sages > struggled for millennia to do the same and failed. Doesn't that strike you > as very odd? Should you not be very skeptical? I do not believe any thing of the sort. It just seems to me that one can indeed talk the nondual talk by assuming the assumptions, using the nondual filters to produce speech and there it is, all that is said on this list without a bit a difference in meaning for the reader. This sort of intellectual feat is done everyday. To produce this stuff is not difficult at all for some. Any position taken here, and all of it is positions from where the poster holds their assumptions, consciously or not or what have you that are necessary to interpret, to respond, to project, to write, can be reproduced. Dan and Toombaru can be reproduced the easiest because they are the most consistent in their presentation. Others less so but reproducible none the less. For some reason you did not notice that what they are, my friends, has nothing to do with what they did for me, talking the nondual talk. They are they way they are before I brought this up. So there is no method at all. Just speech reproduction in the nondual way. And you also could have known, Pete, that I do not care a jot about all this talk since it is reproducible or found in books as words and concepts. Every bit of it is there. I am not curious about reproducible, repetitive speech patterns and ideas, the taking of assumptions and carrying them to their conclusion. I am curious about lived experience outside of presentation speech, listening to the wordless wonder livers and how they experience the world as it is. Talking about what is experienced in ordinary day to day living without reservations, without fear of what someone may imagine or think or say or whatever. There seems to be a limit here for some since if one talks freely without reservation the old filter may slip out and out comes that hidden notion held and so on. So there is a keeping tight, keeping close to the vest and so on. Some of us are not like that and say whatever it is we are at the moment. Others do not. Others are afraid to be hammered or to be caught stepping in soft turds. That's the way it is. I have no fear of that, I am out in the open doing as I am, whatever that is. Nondual speech and nondual speech dueling is one thing going *here* or *there* while demonstrating this and that about duelers, no duelers and dueling. There are other areas to explore as well that many here offer. Lewis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
